Flight International gives pilots advice on fatigue!

[Yarpy]

Thoughtful piece in Flight International today on the findings by the AAIB into the Bombadier Challenger 604 which crashed at Birmingham in January 2002.

The article concludes:

'In the end, tiredness will happen and the best defence is common sense, self awareness and thoughtful lifestyle planning. Finally, any pilot who is tired but decides to fly must admit it clearly to the other crew member and organise a napping roster if possible'.

Anyone care to comment?

(Personally I find it difficult to 'nap' between London and Brussels but that's just my problem)

[Dani]

I haven't read neighter the article nor the AAIB report. Couldn't they mean the napping roster at home?

[flyingdwarf]

I'm afraid they meen the napping roster in the cockpit. This is usually hung next to the 'who's turn is it to order the coffee' roster. Besides, I thought that was what all the bells and whistles were for, to wake up the crew when the autopilot has forgotten what it was doing.:confused: :eek:

I agree, I can't quite see how the napping roster is intended to be of any benefit to those fatigued crews who are not operating long haul, but are in fact probably working far more days in a row, operating many more, busier sectors and therefore facing critical phases of flight far more regularly. And before I get shot down by long haul crew I am not saying that you are not busy and don't have disrupted sleep patterns, as you are and you do! Just making reference to flight's intriguing idea about the napping roster being some sort of solution to a very serious problem.

Maybe BALPA and IAPLA can convince MOL and all the other short haul operators to crew all their aircraft with three pilots so they can take it in turns of having a little sleep.:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

[126.9]

I believe that what is being referred to is the philosophy of cockpit napping. Now before I get shot at by all the 45 minute sector lads and lasses (believe me, I know it doesn't get anymore fatiguing than that), this is a procedure used in many airlines where each crew member shuts his eyes (in turn) for around 25 minutes at a time. Having worked for an airline that uses this procedure (officially) I have found it to be of the utmost benefit. Feel free to have your say regarding the pro's and con's on topic, but before you rush off of the mark, try typing in cockpit napping at GOOGLE (http://www.google.com) and see what you come up with. If not, read THIS (http://www.asasi.org/papers/powell.pdf).

[EGGW]

Personally if i am cream crackered, i divide myself between doing a thorough overhead panel scan( takes a while) and/or checking the window heat system. Generally 15-20 minutes is what it takes to complete said tasks :} :zzz: :zzz:

EGGW.

[RAT 5]

Having flown Trans-Atlantic under the appalling Italian FTL's, it was essential to catch a nap, hopefully in the dark, on the east-bound leg. Trouble was this was over the ocean, ETOPS & HF, quite often with an inexperienced F/O. However, was that a greater risk than being cream crackered on the approach into a foggy MXP many hours later.

However, the cockpit seats on the mega U$ a/c were cr@p. The seat cushions had collapsed, the seat recline not enough & no headrests. The seats in a Ford Fiesta are more comfortable. One of the reasons I quit that life was my back wouldn't have survived being sat on such a lousy chair 16 hours a day for much longer.

Trying to catch the necessary combat zzzzzz, slumped in such an uncomfortable slouch, resulted in recovering with a stiff and aching back. Now, with the door locked I doubt anyone can stretch properly to relieve it. OK the B767 can just allow standing up, but it never was designed to be a 16 hour prison. When oh when will Boeing fit seats that are at least as good as the passenger ones? It is a complete joke. We read daily about trillion working hours lost to sickness, a major cause being lower back problems. But that's not allowed in avaiation. Pilots daren't go sick or risk penalties.

If cockpit naps are officially sanctioned then proper conditions should be provided.

[Smokie]

Don't you just hate it when you wake up and find the guy/ girl in the other seat snoring their head off!!;) ;)

[taildrag]

From a 1994 study of the effects of short-haul flying on airline pilots, (NASA Technical Memorandum 108856):

Several pilots (who were wired up to medical monitors and observed by technicians in the cockpit during flight) actually fell asleep for short periods while under direct observation. The technicians were amazed, since the pilots obviously knew they were being monitored, but fell asleep anyway.

There is a film of this somewhere. It appeared on a US television news magazine.

Pretty scary! It's not just long-haulers, the study shows, who have sleep problems caused by rostering.

Other effects noted were such things as the need to "spin down" even though feeling fatigue after flights, the consumption of alcohol and tobacco, and other factors causing shortened or disturbed sleep on "layovers."

I talked years ago with a DC-10 FE flying the Pacific. MANY\'S the time, he said, he awoke to find he was the pilot in command.

ZZZZZZZZZZZ!

[youn]

Hi Yarpi
You are not the only one having this problem.
Here is something to cheer you up!
On 30 mint sector,in the middle of day we were on the runway lined up ready fo takeoff waiting clearance from tower,When clearance came ther was no reply.I had to read bacl the clearance.Then i looked to my right and guss what!My co-pilot was asleep covring his with a dark sun gasses.
Cheers and have a good sleep.:cool:

[Yarpy]

a greater risk than being cream crackered on the approach into a foggy MXP many hours later.

Golly, that rings some bells. I remember being an FO flying into MXP after a transatlatic for an 'Italian Operator'. My Skipper (great chap bless his heart) was absolutely shot through with the fatigue and stress of the roster. MXP fogged out on approach and we nearly diverted to PISA . . . Poor bloke completely lost his rag over the issue and stopped calling for checklists gear , flaps or anything useful. Yarpy had to take over for a few minutes . . .

The trouble is that the folk who make the rules aren't in the situation. If they were it would be different.

The Captain recovered his sang-froid after a few days at home.

[Ignition Override]

How can aviation "authorities" approve of in-flight napping, knowing the public relations consequences?

And how about the airline pr departments? Most of the flying public are just as gullible and sheepish as people in the Dark Ages-society is still in the dark, in so many ways. They often refuse to be confused/enlightened by the facts: "Oh that is ok, we just want to get there".

The printed and electronic media would intentionally distort very short periods of inflight-napping into the most attention-grabbing headlines possible and not attempt to put it into perspective nor context, until advertising and other revenue (done in a media sweep) increased XX percent. By the end of a thorough article, "Joe Six-Pack" would not be reading or willing to digest anymore, as the masses have become conditioned to learn "the whole truth" from short video and sound bytes. Just the basic facts, please.

How else could CNN have become so powerful?

[Ghostflyer]

IO

Cockpit napping?! I thought pilots were men unless they were women and could stay up for 48hrs straight, get to the other end, have a 45 minute nap in the crew bus, a plate of haggis and black pudding and then turn up for the next duty!

I think you'll find that the public relations consequences of a jet spearing into the rocks with both flight crew members asleep would be significantly more damaging than admitting that a reasoned policy exists for 'In-flight rest'.

You are right that anyone can listen to a CNN sound byte in just the same way that a reader of PPR(umour)UNE can read these comments and assume they come from pilots. Bottom line on this site is that anyone, even CNN, can log on and make up a story about pilots falling asleep or napping inappropriately.

I think the stories actually highlight quite well why it is essential to have a sound policy. As always, education is the key, the regulatory bodies have carried out the studies and have all the information that is needed to prove why it is better to accept a short period of rest for one crew member in the cruise than to have both of them hanging in the straps during the approach.

Whenever I have been asked about the issue, I approached it in those terms. The folks I was talking to (members of the general public) were reassured that they had a better chance of having an alert pilot during the most critical stage of flight; as the jet says hello to terra firma.

Ghost

[Airbus Girl]

There was also something in Flight about the Australian authorities undertaking a scientific study in to fatigue, the results of which would be used for a complete overhaul of FTL.

As for falling asleep and all the war stories about how fatigued you are at work, how about calling in "fatigued".

Otherwise, how are your employers going to know that their rosters are fatiguing. Are they pyschic?

We do shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes.

[Sleeve Wing]

Ghostflyer advocates a "sound" policy WRT cockpit napping.

That wouldn't be a "loud" one, would it, like those from the kitchen timers that KLM used to fit in DC8/9 overheads ?

BTW I'm serious. They were damned useful to ensure neither of us kipped for longer than 20 mins. or so. .......and didn't we need to as we approached the French coast just before dawn after a TFS and back.

:hmm: :zzz:

[unwiseowl]

There was an incident at MUC in the 70's where all departures were stopped for about 20min because an AW650 crew were all fast asleap at the holding point!

[faq]

This should be in the tabloid (cheap British press) domain.

Which is safer:

A pilot who is tired or fatigued to the extent that he knows he must sleep during the flight to complete the flight safely

Or

A pilot who reports for duty over the blood alcohol level limit in (for example) Sweden, who may have had a relaxing chat with his/her crew until 2200, consuming alcohol with his/her meal, has 8 hours sleep before reporting for duty at 0600, but is sadly just over the blood alcohol limit for that country?

No PM’s please, I never check them

faq

edited for spelling

[MOR]

Airbus Girl

Go ahead and try calling in "fatigued", and see how long it takes your employer to discipline and/or fire you.

Fatigue is a clinical condition, and most airlines will simply say that you are fatigued as a result of your not planning adequate rest between duty periods. As you are (I assume) working to an approved FTL scheme, and therefore your rest periods are deemed adequate by law, most companies will simply deny any responsibility and point to your use of your "rest period".

Of course this is stupid, I remember how when our first baby arrived, I didn't sleep much for three months, and was a zombie at work. Same goes for trying to sleep in noisy hotels, thoughtfully located next to motorways. And if you are under some form of life stress, it gets even worse.

Airlines choose (generally) to ignore all this, which tells you a lot about how seriously they really take safety...

But go ahead, try it, and tell us how you get on... ;)

[Tan]

fag

You’re trying to apply common sense to the system. Do you honestly believe anyone else but an experienced pilot could understand your logic?

[Evening Star]

You’re trying to apply common sense to the system. Do you honestly believe anyone else but an experienced pilot could understand your logic?

Actually, there is a fighting chance that a surprisingly large number of people down the back might also understand the logic. Just exclude the journalists/politicians/etc ... in fact, anybody who may have position and responsibility to make a difference to the situation :( .

[flaps to 60]

Does anyone still read that spent has been?

[RAT 5]

Firstly, please treat this story as honest, and no snides or giggles.

At OATS in 1975, as CPL students, one of our corps was involved in Transendential Meditation. He used it, to great effect he said, to recharge his batteries during the day. He was often seen having a quick fix after lunch. It was the shortest siesta I've ever seen. Like any enthusiast he tried to spread the word.

He showed us an avaition article which said that various authorities, including the UK CAA, were investigating the merits of this technique to be used in the cockpit during long-haul operations, especially at night. They came to the conclusion that a short, 20 minute, recharge by each crew member before TOD was of benefit, and this technique might be the best method to do it. It does not involve real sleep, where the person is unaware of events around them, but a state of deep relaxation where there is still some awareness and from which arousal can be failrly immediate. It was also possible in spaces that are too uncomfortable to achieve real sleep. It has the effect, after 20 minutes, of recharging the mind, rather than inducing a feeling of total knackeredness as sometimes happens after a too short a snooze.

I wonder what happened to that survey and investigation. If adopted it would stand along side CRM & MCC in the syllabus for ATPL's. Now that could be interesting; becoming a TM instructor. Trying to put your students to sleep instead of trying to keep them attentive. I wonder how you demonstrate it but stay alert yourself. The old 'follow me through' style might be conterproductive.

[Cap 56]

I do not need any fancy study to prove who is right or wrong.

I just take my nap when I need it and it works and I do have 121.5 open at high volume all the time.

Evening Star

You are quit right; politicians have these marathon meetings on issues that affect the safety of many thousands while being half awake or asleep.

[Banzai Eagle]

The CAA are now giving guidance on napping stratergies, BA have one already i beleive

[Yossarian]

I, for one, am all in favour of the inflight nap. I know it has saved my bacon on numerous occasions.

I once filed an article for a national magazine where I mentioned the use of this strategy, which is approved by the airline. As a courtesy I forwarded it to our corporate comms department before sending and their reaction was unequivocal. "This airline's crew DO NOT sleep". Not cleared for filing.

I often wish that this ground pounder had the opportunity to visit the flight deck and have even the smallest idea of what actually goes on.

The reaction has not caused any angst and I can say for one that this airliine's pilots DO sleep and make the best possible use of the inflight nap policy.

[crosswindaviator]

How about easier roster :O , less fatique,
---> MORE pilot jobs :p

greetz

[B757Flyer]

I'm not convinced that a 'napping strategy' is a sensible option, for the following reasons ;


1. What if the other pilot falls asleep at the same time, fighters
on your wingtips time I guess.

2. When someone wakes from a sleep (even after a short nap) it
can take several minutes to be fully awake and be 'up to
speed', not good if your no. 2 engine is on fire for instance.

3. When you are in certain stages of sleep there can be
involuntary arm /leg movements, not a good idea with Rudder
& Flight controls directly in front of you.


So, all in all, we'll have to think of something else, I know, how about both pilots keeping awake, it's a bit radical I know.

[RAT 5]

How about having a work pattern that makes the whole discussion pointless and unnecessary.

[Krueger]

B757Flyer said:
So, all in all, we'll have to think of something else, I know, how about both pilots keeping awake, it's a bit radical I know.

And then, both pilots falling asleep? No, thanks.

1. If the pilot that's awake is getting dizzy, he should imediately wake his buddy.

2. After you get back from the other world, you must stay put aligning your gyros and then, and only then, after a full alignement you should take-over and release your buddy.

3. You must put your seat well away from flight controls. If needed put the rudder peddals allthe way down.

I've been trying both ways (with combat naps and without) on transatlantic nights and let me tell you, I'm in a much better shape for the approach when I have a combat nap.:ok:

[RAT 5]

Kreuger,

Been there, done that, and I agree it is essential. However, the coming of sleep usually conicided with sunrise turning the flight deck into a sauna and made you feel under the interogation lamp. (east bound). in my B767, the seats had no head rest & the recline was insufficient. This meant, for my height, I had to slump down in the seat to support my head. Tried the blow up neck rests; didn't work. Thus, if lucky to achieve a nap, my back was totally screwed on wake up. At least a B767 cockpit allows you to stand up, just, and stretch. Try it in a B737 during a 5 hours out and 5 hours back trip. Impossible, and the seats are just as bad. In fact, any passenger seat is more comfortable than for the pilots. Scandal; and I've never heard a union complaint about them. Unbelievable. One of the most important items in T's & C's. IMHO.

[poorwanderingwun]

Interesting reading all this...I was beginning to think I was one of the few who found it a problem....Flying 3 or four night sectors and ending up in an hotel at 05:00 has always been a problem...I only sleep for 2-3 hours then wake and that's it...I sit around all day reading...watching TV and feeling like a zombie....One night and a day of this is bad enough but by the last night sector of the week I would have had a total of 12-15 hrs quality sleep for the whole week and staying awake even on a tricky ILS can be a problem....I've tried non-prescription pills to help with sleep but don't want to become addicted to anything stronger....The really irritating mornings are those when I'm woken by cleaners in the hotel corridor wanging there whining machines around and people holding loud conversations directly outside of my door ! Anyone out there know of a non dependant sleep enhansing drug ?

[Krueger]

poorwanderingwun, instead of drugs why don't you try this. In the beginning of the afternoon you go to Gymn or have some kind of physical exercise:E and after that get a nice massage. I'm sure you'll get to sleep right away. After that you'll feel much better for your night sectors. Also try some combat naps before the letdown. It has been working for me nicely. After landing at 0700, drive home, get into bed until 1200 and up again so won't mess up my bio-clock.:ok:

[SR71]

I always go to work with two Redbulls.

Oddly enough, after 6 years of drinking the stuff, I'm wondering if it still works?

:ok: