Flight International gives pilots advice on fatigue!
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Flight International gives pilots advice on fatigue!
Thoughtful piece in Flight International today on the findings by the AAIB into the Bombadier Challenger 604 which crashed at Birmingham in January 2002.
The article concludes:
Anyone care to comment?
(Personally I find it difficult to 'nap' between London and Brussels but that's just my problem)
The article concludes:
'In the end, tiredness will happen and the best defence is common sense, self awareness and thoughtful lifestyle planning. Finally, any pilot who is tired but decides to fly must admit it clearly to the other crew member and organise a napping roster if possible'.
(Personally I find it difficult to 'nap' between London and Brussels but that's just my problem)
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I'm afraid they meen the napping roster in the cockpit. This is usually hung next to the 'who's turn is it to order the coffee' roster. Besides, I thought that was what all the bells and whistles were for, to wake up the crew when the autopilot has forgotten what it was doing.
I agree, I can't quite see how the napping roster is intended to be of any benefit to those fatigued crews who are not operating long haul, but are in fact probably working far more days in a row, operating many more, busier sectors and therefore facing critical phases of flight far more regularly. And before I get shot down by long haul crew I am not saying that you are not busy and don't have disrupted sleep patterns, as you are and you do! Just making reference to flight's intriguing idea about the napping roster being some sort of solution to a very serious problem.
Maybe BALPA and IAPLA can convince MOL and all the other short haul operators to crew all their aircraft with three pilots so they can take it in turns of having a little sleep.
I agree, I can't quite see how the napping roster is intended to be of any benefit to those fatigued crews who are not operating long haul, but are in fact probably working far more days in a row, operating many more, busier sectors and therefore facing critical phases of flight far more regularly. And before I get shot down by long haul crew I am not saying that you are not busy and don't have disrupted sleep patterns, as you are and you do! Just making reference to flight's intriguing idea about the napping roster being some sort of solution to a very serious problem.
Maybe BALPA and IAPLA can convince MOL and all the other short haul operators to crew all their aircraft with three pilots so they can take it in turns of having a little sleep.
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I believe that what is being referred to is the philosophy of cockpit napping. Now before I get shot at by all the 45 minute sector lads and lasses (believe me, I know it doesn't get anymore fatiguing than that), this is a procedure used in many airlines where each crew member shuts his eyes (in turn) for around 25 minutes at a time. Having worked for an airline that uses this procedure (officially) I have found it to be of the utmost benefit. Feel free to have your say regarding the pro's and con's on topic, but before you rush off of the mark, try typing in cockpit napping at GOOGLE and see what you come up with. If not, read THIS.
Personally if i am cream crackered, i divide myself between doing a thorough overhead panel scan( takes a while) and/or checking the window heat system. Generally 15-20 minutes is what it takes to complete said tasks 
EGGW.
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Having flown Trans-Atlantic under the appalling Italian FTL's, it was essential to catch a nap, hopefully in the dark, on the east-bound leg. Trouble was this was over the ocean, ETOPS & HF, quite often with an inexperienced F/O. However, was that a greater risk than being cream crackered on the approach into a foggy MXP many hours later.
However, the cockpit seats on the mega U$ a/c were cr@p. The seat cushions had collapsed, the seat recline not enough & no headrests. The seats in a Ford Fiesta are more comfortable. One of the reasons I quit that life was my back wouldn't have survived being sat on such a lousy chair 16 hours a day for much longer.
Trying to catch the necessary combat zzzzzz, slumped in such an uncomfortable slouch, resulted in recovering with a stiff and aching back. Now, with the door locked I doubt anyone can stretch properly to relieve it. OK the B767 can just allow standing up, but it never was designed to be a 16 hour prison. When oh when will Boeing fit seats that are at least as good as the passenger ones? It is a complete joke. We read daily about trillion working hours lost to sickness, a major cause being lower back problems. But that's not allowed in avaiation. Pilots daren't go sick or risk penalties.
If cockpit naps are officially sanctioned then proper conditions should be provided.
However, the cockpit seats on the mega U$ a/c were cr@p. The seat cushions had collapsed, the seat recline not enough & no headrests. The seats in a Ford Fiesta are more comfortable. One of the reasons I quit that life was my back wouldn't have survived being sat on such a lousy chair 16 hours a day for much longer.
Trying to catch the necessary combat zzzzzz, slumped in such an uncomfortable slouch, resulted in recovering with a stiff and aching back. Now, with the door locked I doubt anyone can stretch properly to relieve it. OK the B767 can just allow standing up, but it never was designed to be a 16 hour prison. When oh when will Boeing fit seats that are at least as good as the passenger ones? It is a complete joke. We read daily about trillion working hours lost to sickness, a major cause being lower back problems. But that's not allowed in avaiation. Pilots daren't go sick or risk penalties.
If cockpit naps are officially sanctioned then proper conditions should be provided.
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napping
From a 1994 study of the effects of short-haul flying on airline pilots, (NASA Technical Memorandum 108856):
Several pilots (who were wired up to medical monitors and observed by technicians in the cockpit during flight) actually fell asleep for short periods while under direct observation. The technicians were amazed, since the pilots obviously knew they were being monitored, but fell asleep anyway.
There is a film of this somewhere. It appeared on a US television news magazine.
Pretty scary! It's not just long-haulers, the study shows, who have sleep problems caused by rostering.
Other effects noted were such things as the need to "spin down" even though feeling fatigue after flights, the consumption of alcohol and tobacco, and other factors causing shortened or disturbed sleep on "layovers."
I talked years ago with a DC-10 FE flying the Pacific. MANY\'S the time, he said, he awoke to find he was the pilot in command.
ZZZZZZZZZZZ!
Several pilots (who were wired up to medical monitors and observed by technicians in the cockpit during flight) actually fell asleep for short periods while under direct observation. The technicians were amazed, since the pilots obviously knew they were being monitored, but fell asleep anyway.
There is a film of this somewhere. It appeared on a US television news magazine.
Pretty scary! It's not just long-haulers, the study shows, who have sleep problems caused by rostering.
Other effects noted were such things as the need to "spin down" even though feeling fatigue after flights, the consumption of alcohol and tobacco, and other factors causing shortened or disturbed sleep on "layovers."
I talked years ago with a DC-10 FE flying the Pacific. MANY\'S the time, he said, he awoke to find he was the pilot in command.
ZZZZZZZZZZZ!
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Hi Yarpi
You are not the only one having this problem.
Here is something to cheer you up!
On 30 mint sector,in the middle of day we were on the runway lined up ready fo takeoff waiting clearance from tower,When clearance came ther was no reply.I had to read bacl the clearance.Then i looked to my right and guss what!My co-pilot was asleep covring his with a dark sun gasses.
Cheers and have a good sleep.
You are not the only one having this problem.
Here is something to cheer you up!
On 30 mint sector,in the middle of day we were on the runway lined up ready fo takeoff waiting clearance from tower,When clearance came ther was no reply.I had to read bacl the clearance.Then i looked to my right and guss what!My co-pilot was asleep covring his with a dark sun gasses.
Cheers and have a good sleep.
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a greater risk than being cream crackered on the approach into a foggy MXP many hours later.
The trouble is that the folk who make the rules aren't in the situation. If they were it would be different.
The Captain recovered his sang-froid after a few days at home.
How can aviation "authorities" approve of in-flight napping, knowing the public relations consequences?
And how about the airline pr departments? Most of the flying public are just as gullible and sheepish as people in the Dark Ages-society is still in the dark, in so many ways. They often refuse to be confused/enlightened by the facts: "Oh that is ok, we just want to get there".
The printed and electronic media would intentionally distort very short periods of inflight-napping into the most attention-grabbing headlines possible and not attempt to put it into perspective nor context, until advertising and other revenue (done in a media sweep) increased XX percent. By the end of a thorough article, "Joe Six-Pack" would not be reading or willing to digest anymore, as the masses have become conditioned to learn "the whole truth" from short video and sound bytes. Just the basic facts, please.
How else could CNN have become so powerful?
And how about the airline pr departments? Most of the flying public are just as gullible and sheepish as people in the Dark Ages-society is still in the dark, in so many ways. They often refuse to be confused/enlightened by the facts: "Oh that is ok, we just want to get there".
The printed and electronic media would intentionally distort very short periods of inflight-napping into the most attention-grabbing headlines possible and not attempt to put it into perspective nor context, until advertising and other revenue (done in a media sweep) increased XX percent. By the end of a thorough article, "Joe Six-Pack" would not be reading or willing to digest anymore, as the masses have become conditioned to learn "the whole truth" from short video and sound bytes. Just the basic facts, please.
How else could CNN have become so powerful?
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IO
Cockpit napping?! I thought pilots were men unless they were women and could stay up for 48hrs straight, get to the other end, have a 45 minute nap in the crew bus, a plate of haggis and black pudding and then turn up for the next duty!
I think you'll find that the public relations consequences of a jet spearing into the rocks with both flight crew members asleep would be significantly more damaging than admitting that a reasoned policy exists for 'In-flight rest'.
You are right that anyone can listen to a CNN sound byte in just the same way that a reader of PPR(umour)UNE can read these comments and assume they come from pilots. Bottom line on this site is that anyone, even CNN, can log on and make up a story about pilots falling asleep or napping inappropriately.
I think the stories actually highlight quite well why it is essential to have a sound policy. As always, education is the key, the regulatory bodies have carried out the studies and have all the information that is needed to prove why it is better to accept a short period of rest for one crew member in the cruise than to have both of them hanging in the straps during the approach.
Whenever I have been asked about the issue, I approached it in those terms. The folks I was talking to (members of the general public) were reassured that they had a better chance of having an alert pilot during the most critical stage of flight; as the jet says hello to terra firma.
Ghost
Cockpit napping?! I thought pilots were men unless they were women and could stay up for 48hrs straight, get to the other end, have a 45 minute nap in the crew bus, a plate of haggis and black pudding and then turn up for the next duty!
I think you'll find that the public relations consequences of a jet spearing into the rocks with both flight crew members asleep would be significantly more damaging than admitting that a reasoned policy exists for 'In-flight rest'.
You are right that anyone can listen to a CNN sound byte in just the same way that a reader of PPR(umour)UNE can read these comments and assume they come from pilots. Bottom line on this site is that anyone, even CNN, can log on and make up a story about pilots falling asleep or napping inappropriately.
I think the stories actually highlight quite well why it is essential to have a sound policy. As always, education is the key, the regulatory bodies have carried out the studies and have all the information that is needed to prove why it is better to accept a short period of rest for one crew member in the cruise than to have both of them hanging in the straps during the approach.
Whenever I have been asked about the issue, I approached it in those terms. The folks I was talking to (members of the general public) were reassured that they had a better chance of having an alert pilot during the most critical stage of flight; as the jet says hello to terra firma.
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There was also something in Flight about the Australian authorities undertaking a scientific study in to fatigue, the results of which would be used for a complete overhaul of FTL.
As for falling asleep and all the war stories about how fatigued you are at work, how about calling in "fatigued".
Otherwise, how are your employers going to know that their rosters are fatiguing. Are they pyschic?
We do shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes.
As for falling asleep and all the war stories about how fatigued you are at work, how about calling in "fatigued".
Otherwise, how are your employers going to know that their rosters are fatiguing. Are they pyschic?
We do shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes.
Pilot Fatigue
Ghostflyer advocates a "sound" policy WRT cockpit napping.
That wouldn't be a "loud" one, would it, like those from the kitchen timers that KLM used to fit in DC8/9 overheads ?
BTW I'm serious. They were damned useful to ensure neither of us kipped for longer than 20 mins. or so. .......and didn't we need to as we approached the French coast just before dawn after a TFS and back.
That wouldn't be a "loud" one, would it, like those from the kitchen timers that KLM used to fit in DC8/9 overheads ?
BTW I'm serious. They were damned useful to ensure neither of us kipped for longer than 20 mins. or so. .......and didn't we need to as we approached the French coast just before dawn after a TFS and back.
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There was an incident at MUC in the 70's where all departures were stopped for about 20min because an AW650 crew were all fast asleap at the holding point!
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This should be in the tabloid (cheap British press) domain.
Which is safer:
A pilot who is tired or fatigued to the extent that he knows he must sleep during the flight to complete the flight safely
Or
A pilot who reports for duty over the blood alcohol level limit in (for example) Sweden, who may have had a relaxing chat with his/her crew until 2200, consuming alcohol with his/her meal, has 8 hours sleep before reporting for duty at 0600, but is sadly just over the blood alcohol limit for that country?
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faq
edited for spelling
Which is safer:
A pilot who is tired or fatigued to the extent that he knows he must sleep during the flight to complete the flight safely
Or
A pilot who reports for duty over the blood alcohol level limit in (for example) Sweden, who may have had a relaxing chat with his/her crew until 2200, consuming alcohol with his/her meal, has 8 hours sleep before reporting for duty at 0600, but is sadly just over the blood alcohol limit for that country?
No PM’s please, I never check them
faq
edited for spelling
Last edited by faq; 2nd Sep 2004 at 18:00.
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Airbus Girl
Go ahead and try calling in "fatigued", and see how long it takes your employer to discipline and/or fire you.
Fatigue is a clinical condition, and most airlines will simply say that you are fatigued as a result of your not planning adequate rest between duty periods. As you are (I assume) working to an approved FTL scheme, and therefore your rest periods are deemed adequate by law, most companies will simply deny any responsibility and point to your use of your "rest period".
Of course this is stupid, I remember how when our first baby arrived, I didn't sleep much for three months, and was a zombie at work. Same goes for trying to sleep in noisy hotels, thoughtfully located next to motorways. And if you are under some form of life stress, it gets even worse.
Airlines choose (generally) to ignore all this, which tells you a lot about how seriously they really take safety...
But go ahead, try it, and tell us how you get on...
Go ahead and try calling in "fatigued", and see how long it takes your employer to discipline and/or fire you.
Fatigue is a clinical condition, and most airlines will simply say that you are fatigued as a result of your not planning adequate rest between duty periods. As you are (I assume) working to an approved FTL scheme, and therefore your rest periods are deemed adequate by law, most companies will simply deny any responsibility and point to your use of your "rest period".
Of course this is stupid, I remember how when our first baby arrived, I didn't sleep much for three months, and was a zombie at work. Same goes for trying to sleep in noisy hotels, thoughtfully located next to motorways. And if you are under some form of life stress, it gets even worse.
Airlines choose (generally) to ignore all this, which tells you a lot about how seriously they really take safety...
But go ahead, try it, and tell us how you get on...
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You’re trying to apply common sense to the system. Do you honestly believe anyone else but an experienced pilot could understand your logic?
.