So I want to own my own aircraft

[Captainkarl]

I was at my flying school and I had left my mum and dad in the bar (I am 15 by the way) and I had returned to a changed atmoshphere of almost my mum and dad had been "TOUCHED" by the luxeriousness that is avaition/flying. My dad asked how much is "THAT" airplane out there, I answered truthfully I dont know! Later he said that he wanted to buy one so I could fly him and my mum to places aswell as me building my hours nessesary for atpl, so can anyone advise on where to look for secound hand aircraft and kit aircraft and cheap ones too please! (like car road tax, insurance etc is there anything similar to plane owners?)

Thanks

[AerBabe]

I am assured you can buy a reasonable microlight for less than £5k. You have to pay more if you want luxuries like doors. :rolleyes:

[Monocock]

Welcome to General Aviation Karl.

You have come to the right place to gather info. There is a lot of info available in previous threads so you might want to try using the search function.

Good luck and keep us posted!!

;)

[Captainkarl]

Hey aerbabe! Hows it goin?
Thanks for the warm welcome monocock, do you have any keywords/ searching words I could use?

[rustle]

Google is an excellent place to start, if you can spare 0.62 of a second ;)

Results 1 - 100 of about 346 for "aircraft sales UK". (0.62 seconds)

[foxmoth]

You could try www.thehangar.co.uk, mind you, not sure if this might be construed as advertising and taken out:(
Other sites include Flyer and Pilot magazine sites.

edited for the link to work. Brl.

[ACW 335]

Captain Karl...

Being only a couple years older than you and already with a PPL and a fair few hours (and desperate for something a bit more powerful!) i have toyed with the idea of aircraft ownership. My advice:

If mum and dad are going to pay; it will cost about the price of a decent car just for the airframe; not to mention the appropriate licensing (if required); mhaintainence and fuel ontop! Bearing in mind, an older airframe will be cheaper, but will probably need more in the way of looking after later on!

First step i suggest is to get yourself your license - then find yourself a decent club where the costs aren't going to break the bank. At my club it is relatively small, landing fees + ALL touch and goes are inclusive in the cost (at some clubs they charge you so much per T&G); fuel is also included at a rate of £94/hour for an aerobatic 2 seater at a club; where membership is the only other cost; and availability is generally excellent!

Your most likely bet before buying outright is to get yourself a share in something - shares range in price depending on the type of aircraft and the number in the group. Typically around £3000 one off payment followed by say about £250 per month; for flying at £30/hour wet (only an example!)

To be honest; wait until you have decent amount of money before doing anything; and do your research. Don't jump in and do everything now or you will have nothing to work towards or look forward to later on in life LOL!

When you take your mum/dad on their first trip, they won't be worried about the decor/niceness of the aeroplane as the will be so gobsmacked; my mum was nervous because she found it totally surreal when i flew her!

Happy flying!:ok:

[Monocock]

God I feel old...............:sad:

[charlie-india-mike]

Mee too..............................................:{ C-I-M

[White Bear]

I love it, 15 years old, no license, no responsibilities, no money (but his parents) and no idea. Already looking for his own aircraft.
Karl, the ease with which you accept such things staggers me. It seems you're about to be handed what most of us have worked a lifetime for.
Under normal circumstances I would say "You couldn't pay me enough to be 15 again", but if I got to be Karl...........well, maybe....
A cynical old fart.
W.B.

[Captainkarl]

That made me laugh! Your a funny guy! Well I do work hard still im doing reading homework at 23:39! I am a PPL student and I want to be a Airline pilot, Planning to do a foundation degree in avation ops and management but ill take the pilot pathway bringing me out with a foundation degree and an (f) atpl,.

(P.S my had the intention of paying £5000 for a plane.....HAHAHA)
Can ANYONE recommend a plane, Cheap, 3 or 4 seats, 1 engine, not a cessana

Thanks for the laugh i needed humouring cuz this story I HAVE to read is crap. lol

[Josh10524]

Karl - You are the luckiest person alive. Of course, I am the second luckiest. I have the fortune to find myself in a similar situation. I'm 16, learning to fly (along with my dad), and now he wants an airplane. Since he knows less about aviation in general than I do, I have been the one to look for a suitable plane. I turned him on to a diamond Xtreme motorglider and now he's dead set on getting a new one with all the options. Of course, I'll get to fly it too. I am hardly in a position to give advice, seeing as I'm just a young student pilot myself, but I have observed several things myself. The cost of insurance and maintenance will be higher than you expect. If the plane seems to be priced low, it may be nearing a required overhaul or major maintenance. It may be a type that has a certain mechanical quirk that makes it prone to malfunctions or costly repairs (Like a turbocharger). Make sure to do your research on those kinds of things if you see a plane you are interested in. How far do your parents want to fly? how much are they willing to spend on an aircraft, insurance, etc? How many people and their luggage do they want to be able to take? Let me know the answers to those things and I'll suggest some airplanes.

[Captainkarl]

Hi Josh


I am the only pilot in the family an my mum was the one who said yes to my PPL my dad was NO but my mum over ruled him! Now he wants a plane?!(I wonder if it was anything to do with the 3 pints he had lmao!)


Cyprus is the longest (I'd entend to fly it in LEGS)But other than that spain, blackpool lol
No more than 30k (I think my dads dreaming)
Insurance? ahhh can you explain I havnt come accross this yet.
4 seats, 2 back 2 front. Light Luggage few pairs of clothes for a weekend stay.


Thanks Josh

p.s Maybe a share in an aircraft?

[Andy_R]

Old??? I feel like a dinosaur!! How things change. At fifteen I had just bought my very own pushbike with my own money and felt really proud of my achievement :D

Good luck to you mate - enjoy the backing of your parents, a lot of people aren't that lucky :ok:

On another slant though, would they not be better financing your ATPL? Then, with any luck you can reward them with a decent career and fly them about a few years down the line.

[Captainkarl]

Im not spoilt by the way, I do buy things for my self and I hold down two jobs to. (Weekly paper round and Saturday job) Ive brought my own bike to!

Atpl or airplane......thats hard (My mum did say they arnt funding after ppl though so a plane may be the only choice)

If i brought a plane with the regestration G-NSOF could I chnage it to G-BEET for an example? (G-BEET, KARL BEETSON!!!) What are CAA guidelines on this?

[Josh10524]

Karl, a quick search turned up some planes that might meet your needs. All comments are what I scribbled down when I saw the planes, and all prices are in U.S. dollars. I'm assuming you meant 30,000 UK. Your dad isn't dreaming, you can get a nice used plane for around that.

Nicely outfitted 1976 PA28 Cherokee Warrior 49,800

Average 1981 Arrow IV 65,000

Nice 1960 PA24-250 Comanche 59,900

1975 Warrior 50,000

Nice 1963 Mooney M20C 42,000

Clean nice 1962 Cessna 172 32,500

Well Equipped 1971 Cessna 172 53,900

Very nice condition 1968 Cessna 177 Cardinal 49,900

Clean 1968 Cessna C177 Cardinal 36,500

Good condition 1972 Cessna 177RG 65,300

Be very careful when you go searching for insurance. I don't know how it is there, but here you will get exactly one quote. pick your insurer well. Explained here -

http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/040130_insurance_market.html

A fractional ownership can be great, or it can be really bad. I suggest you research the larger fractionals like airshares and find what members have to say. I'd be very careful about single airplanes, but that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea, just be careful and find all you can about the other owners and the airplane itself.

If you have any other questions let me know.

[Whirlybird]

Karl,

Good luck to you. Don't listen to the jealous old farts who can't stand the fact that you're being handed on a plate what they had to work for. We all have different opportunities, and actually ALL of us who read this forum are highly privileged in being able to fly. Be grateful to your parents, as I'm sure you are. Oh, and for anyone who doesn't know, I'm old enough to be entitled to criticise those of my generation on here...I can barely even remember being 15! :eek: :{

Now, about that aeroplane. £30,000 will give you a pretty good choice. Which means we can't just recommentd "an aeroplane". You need to do some flying yourself before you know what sort of aircraft you want. For example, you might decide you like something nice and steady and and easy to fly that will take you and the family away for a weekend. A C172 is perfect for that, and you could get one within your price range (I think!). OTOH, you might decide after learning to fly that they are even more boring than staying on the ground on a wet weekend...which is what a fair number of pilots think.

So asking on here is great, but you need to do some other research too. Read the GA monthly mags - Pilot, Flyer, and Today's Pilot - if you aren't already, and look at the ads for aircraft. Hang around airfields and talk to people. When you get your PPL, definitely join a group; it will give you an insight into all the expenses and hassles with insurance, maintenance, the CAA etc.

And if it were me, and your parents don't mind, I'd buy a share in something (around £5000 or less), then ask your parents if you can have the other £25,000 towards your ATPL. If they don't mind, of course - after all, it's their money. But that does make a lot more sense.

Good luck! :ok:

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

karl, good luck. I also want my own aircraft but need to do a little more in the way of ground work with 'Herself'.

One tip, if ANYONE tells you there is a cheap way of flying, they are being somewhat economic with the truth; there are only varying degrees of expense. However, compare flying with membership of a posh golf club or ownership of a nag or two, then you may be pleasantly surprised.

[Flyboy-F33]

Karl.

Some advice here.....you should allow around 10 - 15% of whatever your purchase budget is to put things right in the first year of ownership. My first plane was an Arrow 1 which I bought for 37K. I had a bill for 10K at the first annual. This kind of experience is not unique so DO NOT skimp on the pre purchase inspection.

Secondly you should allow a budget of 10 - 12K per year for fixed and variable running costs, that's based on maybe 100 hours per year.

Let me know if you want a breakdown of those costs.

Fly.....

[Captainkarl]

I have flown a piper warrior once and I like that plane although it was heavy I did a better takeoff in it than the normal trainner. 30K was the otal upper limit my dad inteaded 5 at first! Now 14K but Ive found some for 24k But now I am going to tell them about hangerage/maintaince etc costs so can someone tell me about that, please.
If engine hours are low whats that mean that its a new engine?
Can anyone reccommend a area of airframe limits ie not over so many hours etc? If the C of A doesnt run out till like 2007 is this good?

Thanks

[Monocock]

Wow, what a thread. I must say I have given it a rating of 5 for its sheer readability!!

Hey Karl, what colour headsets do you use for your training......THeyrE NoT PInk are They? In fact, now I come to think of it, has your mum recently completed her PPL?:rolleyes:

[Captainkarl]

I have a grey headset. Why? If I brought a aircraft with the regestration G-NSOF could I get it changed to something like G-BEET?

[Flyin'Dutch']

Karl,

Yes you can subject to paying a smallish fee to the CAA and that the registration has not been used before.

Lots of good things have been said already but make sure you have a good look around before you commit to a specific make and model.

All aeroplanes are a compromise and it would be good to match that what you are getting with what you want to use it for.

Best of luck.

FD

[S-Works]

You better not tell Lucy that you are planning on changing the registration of her aircraft!!!

[Captainkarl]

I was meerly using G-NSOF as an example, I want to buy a four seater not a 2 so shes safe! So I assume your a fellow sywell chappy?

[Redbird72]

Karl,

On the insurance angle (have no knowledge of buying/selling/keeping aircraft!) your best bet would be to check the adds in one of the flying magazines - most of the insurance brokers that deal with small business advertise there. The concept of direct insurance hasn't really taken off in the UK (pardon the pun) and a broker can probably give you a rough indication over the phone, and possibly some advice as to which aircraft/uses you will find cheaper to insure.

If I come across anything more useful, I will post on...

Red.

[BeauMan]

Hate to disappoint you Karl, but G-BEET's already taken... Jaguar T2. Now THAT would be a fun bit of kit, I hear the present owners will be getting rid of 'em soon... :}

[Captainkarl]

Can anyone think of regestrations?

Name Karl Beetson?

G-BEET has been taken!

[S-Works]

Karl, to answer that would indeed require a very long and involved post.....:p

[distaff_beancounter]

There are still a few reggies available in the series G-O....

So, depending on your middle name, you might be able to get:-

G-OK?B :)

[Captainkarl]

WHO ARE YOU BOSE-X? Do you fly with NSOF?

[S-Works]

who am I, animal, vegatble or mineral?:O

[Captainkarl]

Whats your name?
Are you a NSOF member?
Did you learn to fly at sywell?
Are you a NSOF instructor?
Please tell me!

[S-Works]

I am BOSE-X!!!!

Depends if Lucy lets me be a member!

[GuinnessQueen]

All this time I've been looking for a rich old man with a Yak-52 and about 3 months to live......seems I've got it wrong!

Off to dig out my old school uniform!!

(sorry for going off track with the thread)!

GQ:E

[Captainkarl]

it would be g-okab
GO KAB!:D

You should post a message in the are there any female pilots on here...lol

[ACW 335]

heh Karl, aeroplanes aren't like cars..you can't always pick and choose and invent your own reggie!

G-KARL brings up no search results - ring the CAA now and reserve it!

So if you don't want a Cessna, what are you looking at?

[Captainkarl]

I heard that older cessanas can be quite troublesome in the later years?

Can you really reserve G-KARL?

[Penguina]

Know quite a few older cessnas and they're only as troublesome as older women... :p

[Captainkarl]

Hehe your funny!

[AerBabe]

It's such a shame that G-BABE has gone. :(
Genghis and I saw G-BJOB at Popham on Monday! :uhoh:

[Captainkarl]

hahaha lol:E :)

[Chilli Monster]

Thank god the school holidays are nearly over :yuk:

[Monocock]

What does that second registration stand for Aerbabe? Is it your maiden name initials or something??:E

[Captainkarl]

I take my laptop to school and theres nothing stoping me coing on pprune in the lunch hour!:ok:

[Monocock]

What does that second registration stand for Aerbabe? Is it your maiden name initials or something??:E

P.S Karl have you managed to find out if Tucker Jenkins works at Sywell? I think he works where Mrs McClusky is the boss. Ring any bells?

[Captainkarl]

I will ask a mate of mine tonight

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Wotcha, I'm Karl's 'Captain' at Sywell... although I think he prefers the term 'mate' (rather like another friend of mine who happens to be an instructor!).

Tucker Jenkins... can't say I've ever heard of him. He probably does work at the aerodrome but I'm positive he's not with the Northamptonshire School of Flying...

Rgrds,

Jack.

[AerBabe]

Monocock - I thought Tucker Jenkins died? :confused: And maiden name? Pah! I'm still young(ish), free & single. :ok:

[White Bear]

Karl,
I regularly fly a 1958 172. To the best of my knowledge this aircraft has flown 200-300 hours a year, for the last 4 years, with maintence cost of about $300.00 total, including new brakes and disc's. Older aircraft are very basic and uncomplicated.
Regards,
W.B.

[Captainkarl]

does any one know anyplaces to look for airplane sales?

[BRL]

Have a look in the back pages of all of the flying mags that are available now, there are loads amd loads of them in the backpages, or try GOOGLE. Simply type in Aeroplane sales, or something similar and away you go.

Let us know what Daddy buys for you. :)

[Captainkarl]

I hope he still wants to get one!

[Monocock]

Karl,

If I ask him nicely, will your Dad buy me a submarine?

[ACW 335]

Karl..

Are you in the Air Cadets??

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Karl and I were both in the Air Cadets (different ones, however), but it wasn't for us really so now we've decided to retire... quite literally in Karl's case from the sound of things! ;)

[ACW 335]

Are you one of Karls friends?

Karl should have stayed in the ATC - you can get 10hours flying time or 10% whichever is less if you do a vigilant GS towards you PPL so theoretically you do a 35 hour min PPL...

All that free flying experience!

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Yes, I'm one of Karls airbuds :) It is all very well mate but at the end of the day, a) Karl's dad is rich, and b) My dad is dead, leaving me just enough money to finance my PPL.

I think we just got tired of standing 'shun' for 6 hours a week...;)

[PPRuNe Radar]

Learn whilst you are young .....

if your aim is to be an airline pilot then usually your success will be nothing to do with money, having your own aircraft, or hitting on every girl in sight.

It's down to whether those who recruit you think they would be able to spend 14 hours stuck in a cockpit with you without having the urge to reach for the fire axe :}

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Pprune Radar, you have the right attitude, maybe you can scare off some of the younger wannabes and leave the path slightly wider for my friend and I!

And make sure you include the part about the axe ;) !

But on a serious note, I have been told the same thing by quite a few airline pilots I am good friends with these days; make them like you, then cross your fingers and pray they'll employ you...:) That's the way I heard it, anyway... :)

Sorry if I do, but I try my best not to charge into everything I see with a young, teenage, ignorant attitude, so excuse me if it begins to show when I get talking about flying!

[PPRuNe Radar]

No harm meant :ok: you guys are young and enthusiastic, no one would fault that.

Just remember to listen to us old fogies and learn from our mistakes :p :D

[Halfbaked_Boy]

:ok: Don't worry, I am actually one of a handful of people who you will often catch having a chat with the, well, pilots of an earlier generation, over at the flying club... no, I have learnt not to get ahead of myself, and I listen to people's advice, even if it conflicts with my own... I sometimes see myself as more experienced than a PPL I see around the school sometime purely due to the fact I have invested a lot of my time (and by 'a lot', I mean, a good old fashioned style 'lot', for example, many hours a day sometimes) on reading up on the ATPL material, but then I'll stop when a pilot at the school will tell me something extremely useful that has come from a very well known and well written book: one's experience :) And then I think to myself, hang on a second, I have 40 hours experience, and this chap has over four times that and because I have memorised a lot of material I think I have more experience than him? Wow, sometimes it really makes me wonder!

Again, many thanks,

Jack.

p.s. on this note, I bet if you sat an airline pilot in his twenties down with a seventy year old, 'air hardened' chap with a ppl who still loves his cross countries across the U.K., he would learn an awful lot that 'Oxford' could never teach him! (and yes, I do know a private pilot in his seventies)

[ACW 335]

Halfbaked_boy...

Noise proves nothing.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

ACW,

You got through what I tried to say in a few paragraphs in a few words :)

[ACW 335]

Do you want me to explain?

Thats quite good seeing as i was talking about what was coming from your direction.

[S-Works]

blimey, I had to go out and earn my dosh to fly!

The wizdom of youth eh!

ACW, nice one! :cool:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have 40 hours experience, and this chap has over four times that

You probably both should be listening to somebody rather more experienced than that!

Mind you, the bloke in the corner with 5,000 hours is probably too busy learning to talk. Or he could be pausing between teaching at Oxford.

G

[Halfbaked_Boy]

ACW, why don't you have another read through my post:)

Bose... wisdom? I hate saying this, but the finance for my flying comes from the money my father left me, so I am an extremely lucky person; firstly... I am flying, and secondly, I didn't have the pleasure of knowing him before he died, which leaves me torn between thinking whether it would have been better or not to have spoken to him before it happened...

But isn't it funny that I was left about five pounds extra than I needed to fund a PPL... seems like one big coincidence to me, and my father was a very avid supported of general aviation in the UK, even if he didn't fly himself, so I suppose part of me wanted to fulfil what he would have wanted me to do... and now as I move along, I think less and less of that, and more about how happy I always am when I'm up there...

And someone (Karl!) reminded me a while ago that whenever I fly I am closer to my father! Ahh I'll take it as a positive!

Cheers,

Jack.

[S-Works]

i remember when I thought at 40, 200, 700hrs and even more recent than that I knew rather a lot. Alarmingly I actually know very little.

Will somebody please explain to me a simple way of working out CHLat and CHLong in different hemaspheres..............

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Ghengis, quite! But the most experienced airline pilot I know personally has a little of 550 hours! :) Perhaps it's time I started venturing further afield...

Bose-x... yeah, the more I read these materials the more it amazes me what there is to learn, and I'm sure my Physics results have gone up due to my learning in this area!

[ACW 335]

Jack/HB_B

I did read through your post a few times before posting my initial response.

I just think that mentioning money on a public forum where people don't know you personally or your circumsatnces is a bit like digging your own grave for remarks. Probably around 98% of people on here had to work to fund their PPL .

The way you put it sounds like you wanted to brag; and i don't like people who jump up and shout about how much money they have. TBH is you are the same age as Captain Karl, you are very cocky for a 15 year old! (If you are a lot older, i do apologise)

[/rant]

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Then I'm sorry for my cockiness... I think I did mention in a previous post my apologies if I did go 'down that road'? You see when I get talking about flying... And you also hit the nail on the head; no one on here (with the exception of Karl) does know me in real life, so once again I do apologise for bringing up such a forboding subject, but I think I was misunderstood; I wasn't trying to brag as such, I was trying to explain how lucky I know I am, that I realise I have had it easy.

I know I'm cocky; when you spend 4-5 hours a day learning about a subject for a length of time (4 years now?) it does tend to brainwash you into thinking you are a master of it... believe me, I know I don't, before anyone hangs me.

I'll be back later, no hard feelings :)

(Sorry, I have to go out to lunch with someone so I apologise for having to go so abruptly)

Rgrds,

Jack.

:: Quick note before I go, believe me, as soon as I turn 16 I'll be working as much as school time allows... I'd have been doing it so long ago, I can't help the British law chaps... I actually worked for 40 hours at the aerodrome to pay for my last one hour lesson, and I'd gladly do it again... every hour is a bonus at this early stage. Cheers, Jack.

[S-Works]

dont be so quick to assume that apart from Karl that no one in "real life" knows you!

Don't assume that because those of us who have talked to you in person and have not tried to "impress" you with our experiance that we are to be discounted.

It is a very small world.......

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Wise words... I can be so quick to forget :)

Must go now, chat to you later guys and girls!

[Whirlybird]

My whole impression on reading this thread is what an incredibly ageist and snobbish society we live in! I can't be bothered to find specific examples, and I'm not getting at anyone in particular. But does it matter if someone is 15, or 25, or 55, or 105? Does it matter if they were lucky enough to be given the money to fly, to inherit the money to fly, or to manage to get a good enough job to save the money to fly? We are ALL greatly privileged, and shouldn't forget it. We could have been born in a differnt time, or a differnt country, or with different abilities, which wouldn't allow us to fly?

And if people show their envy of someone older, younger, richer, luckier, or whatever...that's absolutely all it does, show their envy.

HBB, say what you like, about any subject you like. But you may have to take the consequences...things you say may be misunderstood or misused. I speak from experience. :{

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Whirly,

Thanks for the insight, but all I do want to get over is that if people think I am cocky/overconfident/disrespectful (and I realise that some of those words weren't used), they obviously haven't taken a stroll into an inner city community lately. I try my hardest to respect my elders (even if some of them, rightly so, are 'knobs') and I don't answer someone back unless I feel there's a real reason for doing so... but as I say, have a look around at 99.9% of the youth today, y'know?

I do try, honestly :)

Rgrds,

Jack.

[BRL]

Look back over the last page or so and you will not find any reference at all to the original question.

Now, for the second time today..........