So what gets on your nerves ??

[ojt...aye]

OK chaps !!...listen up !! Tonight on radar moderately busy training a complete newbie I had two guys from the same company treat the tma to a rendition of the Budweiser "wasssuppp" ad !! They are easy to identify ,but, as they did not speak again after being told to shut up it is difficult to pursue !. I don't want to seem a bore BUT if they had the frequency blocked when I was trying to turn them on to the ILS I have no doubt that they would squeal like stuck pigs !!!!
There are loads of threads here about unobliging atc'ers etc what about juvenile pilots who should know better ....or is that how things are done "down under"?
Anyway rant over ...what ticks you guys off??

[daft fader]

blokes requesting higher...when you tell them to maintain, and tell them about the traffic they say something like " yes, we can see it on tcas"

Plus, people making silly requests when its obviously effing busy " I suppose theres no chance of going direct to....."

[cleared2land 27left]

"What number am I in sequence" is one.

And another is OJTIs who say "what about doing that...." When you are just about to 'kin do it!

[LoLevel]

"visual on top"

------------------
[email protected]
"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s, not even by coincidence I should imagine "

[Proceed As Cleared]

You've got heaps of tfc, mod to sev turb reports, lots af level changes, additional coordination, higher complexity as a result, and then the Lufthansas saying:"We're experiencing light turbulence, request lower level:" AAAARGGGGHHH!!!!!

[Adamastor]

Consistent unwillingness to offer even the slightest discounts no matter how much we cut their costs or bust our balls to help them! When will they ever learn......

"Direct tracking not available due your management's scabiness!"

[cleared2land 27left]

"VIE NEED TOO MINETS BEHIND 757" usually said as the a/c turns onto the runway, not 5 minutes ago when they were given line up.

[Numpo-Nigit]

1. A/c "XXX request descent"
ATC "XXX descend FL270"
A/c "Do you want us to leave now?"

2. ATC "XXX what level are you requesting?"
A/c "We'd like 330 to cruise"
ATC "Roger, climb FL330"
(updates computer, phones co-ordination)
A/c "XXX requesting FL370"

Just two of my favourites!!!

[Not Long Now]

That f***in' letter stapled to pay slips this month.

'You've all done awfully well, carry on', but not enough staff, no sign of any turning up, telling us how lucky we are to be employed by such a wonderful company, how well even our managers are doing, how we can all battle on through these short term 'blips'.

Ever seen him in the ops room?

[ATCexpert]

Pilots who do not check in on a frequency.

Pilots who do not give their passing and cleared level on first contact.

Managers with big smiles after receiving their annual bonuses for moving more traffic with less delay.

[Slippers]

Cleared2land27left,

If your OJTI is saying "what about doing that...", then you should have 'kin done it already!!

[ItchyFeet]

ATC: Descend now to Fl***, rate of descent 1500 feet p.m.

ACFT: Roger descend FL*** RoD 1500ft.p.m ....Do we have to leave now?

Just one that springs to mind daily!

[Asda]

"ABC123 climb FLxxx"(flight planned level)

ABC123 heaves itself to FLxxx

"ABC123 reaching FLxxx, requesting FLxxx + a bit more"

NOW you tell me!

[static]

"Reduce speed 220 kts and increase your rate of descent"

Just after touchdown: "expedite vacating next exit right, taxiway c to gate 34", and expecting an immediate response.

Just a couple, glad to see none of us are perfect.

[Numpo-Nigit]

Good points, static! Glad this is not just a one-way topic - let's have some more pilot input. Of course, if NATS actively encouraged ATCOs to take fam flights, the knowledge pool could be further expanded. Instead, it seems to be regarded as another nuisance factor that management would love to abolish. Not to worry, keep those "hates" coming in.

[Bright-Ling]

Pilots who start 45 minutes before their slot time, taxi 35 mins before the slot, get to the holding bay and say:

"Ready for departure when you are!!"

WHY?

....oh, and of course, WOMEN!!!!!!

TAKE COVER!

[Proceed As Cleared]

How about pilots visiting an ATC unit for a change?
Would give them an excellent overview!

[Avman]

Aviatiunn profecssionalls spelllin Britannia "Brittania" !!!!
:) :) :)

[HugMonster]

PAC, not too long ago I had a couple of phone calls with our local SATCO, asked if we could do the familiarisation thing, if we could send pilots over there to see what goes on, and invited ATCO's on fam flights. I put a notice on our company noticeboard f.i.o pilots, and now have a list that I'm trying to organise w.r.t. dates. Not one ATCO has taken up the invitation, however.

------------------
Breeding Per Dementia Unto Something Jolly Big, Toodle-pip

[static]

I have been on visit to ATC a couple of times, at AMS and once when I was snowed in in Gothenburg. Always very nicely received.
We have a company policy that allows fam-flights on the jumpseat for Air Traffic Controllers. I get the impression, though, that it is only used when they go on business-trips anyway. There is some contact as well between our two unions. I get the impression that ATC knows a little bit better now what we want in certain situations and more importantly, what we don`t want.
We also get a lot more insight in certain ATC decisions. Works well.

We deal with each other on a daily basis in a very intense way, but we really don`t know a lot about each other, do we?

[Proceed As Cleared]

Well said, static, well said.
I can only confirm, that pilots are always welcome to have a look at how ATC works.

Every year we have the opportunity to go for an observer flight (fam flight) with our national carrier.
This is widely popular amongst us ATCOs and the vast majority takes this opportunity.

BTW, static, it is always BLM 3 E arrival, no need to get that confirmed. :)

[This message has been edited by Proceed As Cleared (edited 10 December 2000).]

[Grandad Flyer]

From the other end of the mic....

(On taxi in): "For information, we had 10/20 knots of tailwind throughout the approach, reducing to 8 knots tailwind on touchdown."
(Ground/tower): "The surface wind is (headwind)"
"Yes, but we actually had a tailwind throughout the approach and landing"
(No comment or a further argument)

Then the next aircraft comes on frequency and tower doesn't bother to tell them there is a tailwind for landing....

When we have landed, are turning off the runway on the high speed, and tower says "take the next left exit".

When we have a flight plan in, which shows our cruise altitude as FL330 and we get clearance to FL290, so we request FL330 for cruise and ATC say they will see what they can do. (This in response to a previous posting above regarding aircraft asking for higher levels).

Changing frequency, very very quiet, wait 5 mins for an obvious direct to, don't get it, so call up and then given it. Then ATC coming on this forum and complaining about it!!!

[Proceed As Cleared]

Excuse me, Mr. Grandad!
Has it maybe ever come across to you, that FL can be occupied?
Or that, before you can climb to your requested level, we have to coordinate either within the center or with adjacent centers? (For reasons like mininum horizontal distance at same FL according letter of agreement)
And what is "an obvious direct to"?

And finally, this is OUR FORUM, be welcome as a guest!

[form49]

A/c calling for push and start in an apron you can't see when they haven't even got a tug attached and the poor sod next to them after being given a conditional, calls up and tells you the a/c they're waiting for has no tug.

Pilots whingeing because they've been refuse start due to missing their slot.
Pilots saying they'll make a slot which expires in 5 minutes when they've got no tug attaced or there's a big queue at the hold.
Pilots calling short final after they were given landing clearaneat 4 miles (Are we cleared to land? would be better!!!)

And finally, The French

------------------
Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established

[Proceed As Cleared]

"AFR1722 descend to FL 290."
...
"AFR1722 descend to FL 290."

Ahhh are you ahhhh calling AFR ahhhh 1722?

"Affirm, descend to FL 290."

Roger ahhhh leaving ahhhhh FL 330 for ahhhh FL 290.

:)

[Numpo-Nigit]

Grandad Flyer

This flight level thing certainly seems to be the main bone of contention. It seems that you may be the only pilot who actually wants, and can achieve, the flight level in your flight plan. In my experience, much R/T is expended confirming exactly what level aircraft require, as the flight plan submitted often has an unrealistic filed level. Whether this is due to the plan being filed before the actual load or weather is known, I don't know, but sometimes it seems that even the crew have no idea what has been filed. So please don't knock ATC for not getting your ideal cruising level. We have an unrealistic flight plan, our own knowledge, and even "ask the pilot", but we still get it wrong - what else can we do ?

[Spotter]

It's a fair point that not many ATCO's take up the opportunity of fam flights. Personally I've done 8 this year from Cessna 310 to A300, & enjoyed every one.

There is a pretty good reason that most NATS people don't take it up. They have to be done in our own time. Allowing for the fact that we're knackered at the end of a cycle, & that the next cycle starts with an early shift there ain't much spare time available.
Bearing in mind that we'd get into deep poo if we got offloaded & missed the first shift of the cycle.

Also bearing in mind that allowing for drive to/from the airport, check in an hour before the flight etc, that an average fam flight 2 hours each way & an hour on the ground can easily take up 8 hours. Not quite the same as popping into ATC for an hour or two for a look round & a chat.

If airlines really want to get ATCO's on fam flights there are 2 ways of making it more attractive.

1...Apply pressure on NATS to recognise fam flights as official working duties. (as they used to be until about 5 years ago)

or

2...Where possible allow ATCO's to return on a later flight/or next day. That way the attraction of a day in Paris or wherever helps to overcome the apathy. There may even be the benefit of returning with a different crew & getting double the feedback.

A bagful of duty free used to be enough of a carrot to get some people on fam flights, but now that's gone.

Don't get me wrong. I love fam flights. I'll fly in anything me. But that's because I'm an enthusiast. I'm just a big kid. I enjoy getting to see the pointy end of all these different aircraft, and I enjoy even getting just 40 minutes on the ground somewhere different to see a few unusual aircraft. But there ain't that many enthusiasts coming into the job anymore. You could argue that's all the more reason why they should be doing fam flights & I'd agree.

I think I'll stop there. I'm starting to ramble. I'll go & get my anorak.

[No speed Restriction]

Good call spotter......

I am a deffo advocate of FAM flights ......however imagine my disgust........6am checking in for an EHAM fam flight to be told that flight is full, ok not a problem I'm supposed to be up front.... AHHH the crew won't take you !! junior capt with junior F/O ...wish I'd stayed in BED !! was home by 8 am, pissed off to say the least....thought they would have been at least warned I was on my way ....

Rant over


NsR

[mobydick]

Always carry a copy of CAP 413 when doing traing flights from the US just for our pilots that might need to read it as well as being told. By the way great ATS "over there".

[PPRuNe Radar]

Proceed As Cleared

Actually it's not OUR Forum, it's Danny's. Pilots are always welcome here, and whilst their views may oppose ours on occasion, it is only by communicating that we will understand each others problems.

Grandad Flyer regularly visits here to find out about the ATC aspects of the industry or to ask questions, so a little professional courtesy to him/her would not go amiss.

------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[The Prime Minister]

Well said PPRUNE Radar.

Grandad was just pointing out that there are two sides in this matter. It is a shame that we can't ask each other about these matters instead of moaning about them.

Tony.

[Numpo-Nigit]

I'm a little surprised that "the management" appeared rather heavily in defence of Grandad Flyer. Neither Proceed As Cleared nor myself, who both replied to his post, have made any comment that could be portrayed as lacking professional courtesy. We merely added further views on the topic of filed/requested/allocated levels. We can all learn from pilots visiting the ATC forum, and vice versa, but, if people get over-sensitive, the opportunity will be lost.
If GF's nom-de-plume is indicative of his vintage, then I'm sure he has taken no offence - certainly none was intended. What level did you want ????

[PPRuNe Radar]

Numpo

There is absolutely nothing wrong with your post in it's entirety, nor Proceed's in terms of putting the technical ATC points across.

However a comment like:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">And finally, this is OUR FORUM, be welcome as a guest!</font>

is the one that raises my hackles, if you read it along with the 'angry' symbol posted. Remember, if it can be misunderstood, it will be.



------------------
PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 11 December 2000).]

[Proceed As Cleared]

Thank you, Numpo-Nigit.

Now may I add something constructive (in my opinion) without getting told off?
The title of this thread says it clearly, I believe: To let some steam off.
Too often, ATCOs function as "lightning conductors", not only on PPRUNE, but even also on the frequency!
It is simply a fact, that ATCOs can see more of the jigsaw than pilots, and I'd like some drivers to acknowledge that.
Now when I read something like Grandad has written (the FL thing) then I react a kind of allergic to it. Because, as I believe I've explained in my reply, there is often much more behind a decision than one can imagine. And the style of Grandads post is not like asking a question, it sounds in fact just reproachful.
However, I'd like to confirm, that I strongly encourage an exchange of point of views concerning aviation matters between pilots and ATCOs, no matter if by asking nice questions or by letting steam off. The effect is the same: We all can learn something out of it.
The ideal constellation though will always be to have a closer look at each others working environment.

[Proceed As Cleared]

Sorry Chief, but you clearly blamed me for not using professional courtesy.
Anyway, when I read, quote:

Then ATC coming on this forum and complaining about it!!!

then I interpret this like: What the hell do ATCOs have to do here!

As you say: If it can be misunderstood, it will be.

[Secret Squirrel]

C2L26L:

""What number am I in sequence" is one."

I appreciate that many requests of the same nature can get tiresome. However, sometimes, though not always I grant you, captains like to keep their pax informed of how long a delay is likely to be. An indication of the estimated time together with a queue number is helpful.

There are some captains, though, who just have to be told evrything in order to keep their blood pressure down, and I find them annoying too as it's usually the FO who has to annoy the ATCO on behalf of the capt.

Daft fader:

" yes, we can see it on tcas"

I trust that it only annoys you when trying to explain why they can't have higher and not when you are passing FI, because then we are only trying to be helpful, I assure you.

As for pet hates; I can honestly say I can't think of a single one, really. Yes an ocasional ATCO who's obviously been sitting at his screen too long, but considering I don't think I could do your job at all as well as you guys do it 99.9% of the time, I consider myself lucky to fly the best controlled airspace in Europe (haven't flown anywhere else). Also, I have taken on board some of your pet hates and will endeavour to use them as often as possible!.... Not!

I'll be a capt soon but you won't be turned down by me on a fam flight.

Thank you people for making my day easier and safer.

------------------
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

[Gonzo]

If I might be permitted to turn this topic on its head:

What annoys me? Fellow ATCOs coming out with transmissions akin to the following:

"Air China XXX (or any other airline who might not speak english as well as the rest of us), turn right on the outer, then at block 52 do a left 180 to head north on the inner, hold short of the Limas, your stand is 29, which is occupied at the moment, initially give way to the Virgin A340 left to right at block 20".

And then they get really pi$$ed off when the poor bloke turns the wrong way at block 52 or hesitates in any way!

Doh!

Gonzo

[Grandad Flyer]

Crumbs, did someone mention stress management here? :)
I take no offence at all, and I hope my posting didn't give any. Just thought that as there were 90% of ATCers having a moan at pilots that I would mention a couple of things that are sometimes minor irritations to us at the other end.
I realise that FLs may be filled by other lumps of metal, I have now learnt that some airlines (many?) file flights at FLs that cannot be reached. The airline I work for generally steps us up based on the predicted weight, which is generally quite accurate. Occasionally we may be able to get higher if we are lighter so might ask for that.
Or very, very occasionally we may have a tech problem that necessitates a lower level (something like pressurisation/ air conditioning minor faults).
So I'm glad I was here, I've learnt something.
And I just want to add that I totally agree, as I am sure do 100% of other pilots, that anyone who calls for push when they are obviously not ready, and no tug, just to try and avoid missing their slot, when they know there is another aircraft next to them with a tug, waiting to go, is just plain ignorant.
Best I've seen though was at a foreign airport. We were fully ready to go and called for push and start.
We were told to standby.
There was a "local" operator next door to us in what looked like the middle of a turn round.
We suspected we were being held to let him go first, even though bags were still going on and no tug.
We called again after a good few minutes and told to wait again.
We asked how long the delay would be and what the reason was.
We were told there was a problem with our flight plan.
When pushed on it, he could not say what.
Miraculously, just after the local ahd been cleared to push, our "flight plan problems" were suddenly resolved and we were allowed to go.
I think its called taking the p*ss.

[HugMonster]

"Good day, Paris, XXXXX 123, FL127 descending FL60, Dieppe 2B arrival, ATR72 with Information Golf"
"XXXXX 123, Bonjour, I call you back"

[Numpo-Nigit]

HugMonster

Here's hoping I don't upset a pilot, but what's the point of your "pet hate"? You call the Paris controller, tell him/her exactly what needs to be said, and are clearly following a defined procedure. If the controller does not have an instant onward clearance for you, what more do you expect to be said? Hell, you even got a "Bonjour"!!!

[HugMonster]

Sorry, numpo - perhaps I should have explained. Any pilot who flies into CDG at all regularly will recognise the syndrome. It is a recognised formula, since most Paris controllers appear to be far less capable of thinking "on their feet" than their Brit counterparts. Any request, even for anything simple, receives the response "I call you back".

[Magnetron]

Wrote to EVERY airline operating at our field and EVERY chief pilot/training capt for three years 97/98/99 inviting all crews to visit ATC for a chat,meet the troops, AND have a go on the sim.With one notable exeption ( Airtours) the white gloved ones where too busy / too tired etc to bother taking up the offer

[3rd Runway]

With a slight military theme: Pilots who accept PAR/SRA approaches for controller training and then ignore the talkdown in faavour of the ILS.

Thanks a bunch.

[Bright-Ling]

POOR READBACKS, such as:

Pilots, who having been given dep instructions of "after departure......" read back "after take-off......"

Also, Americans poor RT such as "clear to go" and "roger" when cleared to land.

Oh, and of course Personnel and WM/DWM's!

[cossack]

Pilots who, having been assigned a speed to fly, slow down without asking.
Pilots who, having been given immediate take off clearance wheels up on the preceding, wait for that traffic to make its turn after departure before rolling.
Pilots who taxy to the holding point and haven't planned on the possibility of an intersection departure and need to check the figures when they get there. If you can accept an intersection departure, offer to take it it may save you a lot of time. It may not, but you'll be thanked for the offer (by me anyway!)

[Numpo-Nigit]

HugMonster

Thanks for the explanation. It does seem to be a perennial thread through various topics that you pilots don't like Paris controllers. I've flown into CDG and Orly quite a few times on the flight deck of various airlines, British and French, and have never heard anything less than professional - but perhaps I'm lucky!!! It can be a two-way street though, as one UK-based F27 pilot I was with decided to turn off his radar heading on approach to CDG, without a by-your-leave, because he didn't like the look of the cloud in front!! Whilst I concur with his wish to avoid dodgy weather, I'm sure the Paris approach controller wondered what was happening, and I'm sure it did no good to the subsequent spacing.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Believe this or not, but I swear it's true. Fairly early one morning at LHR around 20-25 years ago a US-registered 747 was given 10L (09L) for take off. As he rolled down the runway he said to me: "Tower, we've not used this runway before will you kindly run through the SID for us..."

[cossack]

Unbelievable, but undoubtedly true!!!

[shakinghead]

Sarcastic remarks from pilots after issuing instructions.
eg This morning vectoring a 737 downwind no2 to an ATP. Told him to reduce from 250kts to 210kts (not unreasonable or unsafe, I dont think), got the reply "Roger reducing to next to nothing"

[passepartout]

Lets face it we are all under pressure!
I have so wanted to vent my spleen to pilots who appear to come out with the most obnoxious sayings at the worst possible time.
Lets face it when we are busy, they are busy. What i cannot accept is that given our years of training and experience when a pilot thinks he knows the traffic order better because he has the traffic on TCAS ( the worst RADAR ever invented). This practice of being "visual" (ie visual on TCAS ) has caused some horrendous airmisses recentley and must be stopped.

[Shanwick Shanwick]

And there was I thinking ATC were provided to help us out and not the other way around.

Sorry fellas, it was a genuine mistake!

------------------
hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh

[daft fader]

To secret Squirrel:

"we can see it on tcas" annoys me because asking for higher when you already know that you are unlikely to get it for traffic reasons strikes me as being somewhat silly.
If I am busy, a call for higher may force me into one of my rare errors (?) and allocate an unsafe level. If you can see it on TCAS you will embarrass me by declining the climb but even worse is if you can`t see it or are not looking and one of us initiates avoiding action or something more serious. In other words, please don`t jog my elbow, wait till you think the traffic has gone past and then by all means please request higher.

[Adamastor]

And there was I thinking that BOTH of us were there to get the PASSENGERS safely from A to B.

Sorry everyone - it was a genuine mistake! Tosser!


------------------
Climb like your life depends on it......because it does!

[squeaker]

Billy Boy, what have you done? All these people seem jolly upset!!
Joking apart, as a failed ATCO cadet turned pilot I have sympathy with much that is written above.
One thing that hacks me off is gash RT, there's no need for it and it can be bloody dangerous! Worst culprits are the "septics" without a doubt, but then if you heard their ATC this would not be a surprise to you.
IMHO UK ATC is the best bar none. Don't let us whingeing pilots get you down!

[PaulDeGearup]

How about: " ATC clears xxxx123 to VOR climb to and maintain FL60 call departure 123.45 squawk 5678" then after you read it back you get "Local restriction, climb on R/W hdg to 2000"
How about: The Big Airways crews who NEVER listen out on a new frequency before transmitting! You know who you are!
How about: Two ac on ramp both departing about the same time. AC A calls for push and is cleared to push and face west which puts him right behind you!

[10W]

PaulDeGearup

I hate pilots, who given the clearance you quote, then come back and say they can't seem to be able to set 5678 on their transponder :rolleyes:

Must have the cheap versions I guess ?? ;)

------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[The Fat Controller]

Current annoying things:-
Airline managers who think it's fun to allocate callsigns with sequential or similar numbers to their flights which then follow each other for great distances.
American pilots who read back exactly what they wanted to hear, despite this not being what was said (usually involves climb or direct routeing in the only high level sector I control over the scottish part of the North Sea).
American pilots who don't listen out.
Favourite airline.UZBEK.May not have the best English language skills, but if they don't understand(rare event) at least they ask politely for a repeat.

[daft fader]

My fave pilots are the russians especially when there`s lots of weather about.

Every other pilot is asking for weather avoidance(mysteriously shortening their route) but the comrades plough resolutely through. Now that they use western equipment you would have thought they would change tactics but don`t seem to mind at all.

[Secret Squirrel]

Daft Fader, I think you misunderstood me. I can understand your angst in the example you give; it's just that sometimes we may not notice it immediately and so the standard response is that we can see it (now). In fact though, what I meant was, when you give out flight information such as "aircraft crossing right to left 1000' above: A BA 747". We used to say, "visual with the traffic" whereas now we don't have to squint out the window searching for a spec in the sky with a silly painting on the tail.

Shakinghead: c'mon, have a sense of humour! Maybe I'm warped or something but it certainly brought a wry smile to my face. I don't know what tone he used and strictly speaking it isn't standard RT, I grant you. Maybe the jibe wasn't directed at you but at the ATP in front. Just a thought; please don't abuse me, I'm on your side, really.

------------------
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

[LoLevel]

ACFT given HLD or SPD 2 make a LDG time. First CTC every FOL FREQ "RQST CANX SPD BLW A100 and NOW VIS RQST DCT LEFT DWIND"

Knock Knock ...Hello... you are not the one telling me about your great situational awareness are you?

& Please use your TCAS for what it is. Dont try and be the controller, and we won't fly your plane ok?


------------------
[email protected]
"The views expressed here are a personal rant and rave and in no way reflect the views of my employer/s, not even by coincidence I should imagine "

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

How about the long haul guys who don't want to land before a certain time? I'm not talking about morning noise rules I'm talking the middle of the day. On several occasions I've had a British-registered heavy jet going round and round at LAM when he could have had a straight in approach. Typically a few days ago around 1430ish. Sometime ago we rang Ops to ask what was happening with one of these flights and they didn't know...!

So why do it guys? Don't you feel guilty about wasting all that fuel? What do you tell the pax - hands on your hearts here!?

Lastly, it's like driving at 50mph on the outside lane cos at times there's a great queue behind...

[Asda]

Perhaps associated with the TCAS thread.

"What's our traffic?"

[10W]

Heathrow Director

BAW are on pain of death if they land and are on stand earlier than scheduled ETA -20 minutes due shortage of stands.

Captain Airclues will explain all if you e-mail him !!

------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[BuzzLightyear]

Pilots like Packsonflite who propose to get this site back to what they consider it should be,i.e. professional PILOTS only (see rumours and news).

I see that PPRuNe Radar admonished Proceed As Cleared for having a pop (however unjustified) at Grandad Flyer. Haven't noticed any such admonishment for Packsonflite for suggesting that we, non flyers and other interested people, aren't welcome on rumour and news any more because we don't belong to that exclusive club of paid jet jockeys.

Sorry if I've upset anybody, but surely if we are supposed to welcome pilots et al into this forum, (notice I didn't say "our") then the reverse should apply for the other open forums, and all such calls for exclusivity should be dealt with in a similar way.

I think the input from others is valuable, and have certainly seen, on this and other forums, several answers to questions that have cleared up confusion and/or misunderstanding. This site is, apart from being fun, a valuable source of information for all, and it is really annoying when some jumped up ------ (insert own choice of expletive) thinks that it should only be available for him and his mates.

Stands off soapbox and prepares to recieve incoming!!

------------------
To infinity and beyond

[ojt...aye]

well done mate ............micro seconds behind me !!!!! heheheheheh

[PaulDeGearup]

LHR Director

Yup can verify 10W's comment re BA. Came back from SFo last year and was very surprised at deck angle of the jet. When Fo appeared he explained that they had to arrive on time and due tailwinds would be extreemely early hence FMS to Min Fuel!

[Warped Factor]

Heathrow Director,

The message has already gone out to BAW that holding just for the sake of delaying landing time to ETA -20 minutes will not be allowed once inside TC airspace.

Any delaying action should be made before it gets into the TMA. Next time one asks "just say no" :)

WF.

[Bigmouth]

Here´s what I like about ATC´ers:
Anytime time the U.S. kind give you a non standard, unusual, or inconvenient clearance, they will give you a reason why, if they have the time. Which they usually do.