Light Aircraft Down near Bournemouth

[c-bert]

That's all I got off the latest local ITV news. Anyone else have any info?

[Slowsafecruise]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/3607814.stm


Lets hope everyone is ok.. thoughts go out to them.

[Gassbag]

Any news on this event? From the report it sounds like it was near the perimiter road. Anyone from that area shed any light on this?

[SOU-Bloke]

One person killed, the other two pob taken to Salisbury's Hospitals specialist burns unit. Crash happened at about 1300, was TB9 or TB10 heading back to Guernsey. A/c believed to based in GCI.

BOH remained open to commercial traffic, but closed to all other traffic.

[Send Clowns]

TB10 out of the channel islands (Guernsey?), having cleared customs at Bournemouth en route Henstridge for a fly in crashed shortly after take off. Identity of 3 POB is known from the Gen Dec, but for obvious reasons I cannot put anything here about them. Sorry to hear one has died, if this is true. Certainly had an air ambulance fly out cleared to a burns hospital.

Aircraft called tower with a problem shortly after take off (about 1215 local), saying they would be returning to the field. Various reports of what problem, possibly either nothing on the ASI or not climbing. Did not hear the call myself so I hesitate to speculate further in open forum. Crashed shortly after at the airfield boundary, onto the perimeter road (near Alice in Wonderland theme park, for those familiar with EGHH).

EGHH was still closed to all but scheduled and limited departing traffic when I gave up hope of flying for the afternoon at 1500L, tower giving little hope of improvement.

Remember to practice EFATOs regularly, and no-ASI circuits. Remember your checks on the roll. Terrible accident, we are all vulnerable. Fly safely my friends.

[itchy kitchin]

A pal of mine is training there and told me that there was an ASI failure, and spun in following a left turnout from 26. How he knows that there was ASI failure is beyond me, so can't say it was definately that. The news report says they had turned back to the feild following trouble after take off, so lets wait for the official report.
Also was told it was a TB10.
Condolencies to the pilots family.
Best hopes for those injured.

[smithy2u]

Ops Manager for Bournemouth Handling Ltd.

I was the last contact with the crew off G-BOIU who came into us for customs clearance and a cup of coffee today. Still in shock. Regrets to the pilots family and fingers crossed for the guys who were pulled clear. I hope you guys make it.

Paul Smith

[fernytickles]

This is, as always, a very sad accident. I do not wish to hijack the topic or start an argument, but I was so shocked when I saw the BBC's report, I felt I had to write something. I find their reporting in this case unbelievably crass and tactless.
Looking at the BBC, (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/3607814.stm) the photo is of the plane burning. Presumably some charitable soul grabbed the camera and took the photo specially to give to the press crews while the people were still on board as the report says .......

"It hit the road and a fence, and there was a fire," he said.

"The airport emergency services were literally there in seconds and put the fire out very quickly.

"Then the helicopter and ambulances arrived and took them to hospital."

Soo - its OK to show the plane burning while, one assumes, the people are still on board?????

Just incase anyone feels like commenting to the Beeb, the page is here ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/feedback/bbci_comment.shtml

[Jetscream 32]

looking @ the piccy and living here, you can see the start of thunderbird 1's monitor just coming in to view to extinguish the flames, this picture must have been taken from a grockle in the theme park on the ridge that is above the car park.

Terrible accident that if as rumours suggest was just an ASI (yes we will have to wait for AAIB) could have been avoided as there was an excellent horizon yesterday, so assuming that there was nothing wrong with the engine should have been a standard P-A-T, and wind noise procedure!

Strengthens my argument that part of the PPL syllabus should be done in a SLMG (circa 5hrs) to teach better understanding of field landings and general handling with a silent engine, that should save lives at times like these?

Condolences to all, such a shame

:sad:

[bigflyingrob]

Why is it both glider pilots and microlighters practice field landings actually into the field but group A pull away at 500 feet? You learn nothing from 500 feet. Do the job properly and teach these guys to deal with problems. I learnt to fly on gliders and the FI used to cover the asi with a big sucker so the student could not use it. Fly attitude he used to say and I hated him for it! Once I could do it I wondered what the problem was! 10 years later I lost an ASI and flew attitude. It worked so well I continued the flight and fixed it at my leasure.

[Monocock]

could have been avoided as there was an excellent horizon yesterday, so assuming that there was nothing wrong with the engine should have been a standard P-A-T, and wind noise procedure!

How many times have you had an EFATO Jetscream? Pray tell.

[Stoney X]

Mono, if the comments from Send Clowns and itchy kitchin are correct then this accident has nothing to do with an EFATO.

Regards
Stoney X

[Whirlybird]

bigflyingrob,
You are talking about two different issues here. The first one concerns PFLs into a field. I presume Group A aircraft don't do them because they couldn't fly out again safely. However, during my PPL(A) training I practised engine failure from just about everywhere in the circuit, and from downwind onwards I had to land on the runway, which is not too dissimilar. The second issue is instrument failures. I learned on a traumahawk, and remember being made to do two circuits with ALL the instruments covered. Which means I too now don't worry too much, and recently continued a flight with a non-working DI, AI, and balance ball, without worrying about it. A non-working ASI would worry me a little but not that much. So don't jump to too many conclusions here about what people learn in training; it varies.

More importantly, we don't yet know what happened! Also, I suspect some of you have never had an in-flight emergency. Until you have, you don't know how you'll react - take it from me!!! Simulated emergencies are NOT the same; the sinking feeling you get from the real thing is something that just can't be simulated. So while more training, better training, more continued training, more practice, and so on are absolutely excellent ideas, I don't think we should criticise the present system too much. It's hard to accept, but sometimes, no matter what you do, accidents are going to happen.

[[u]]

No offence but what is an ASI ?

[rustle]

No offence but what is an ASI ?

None taken.

It is an AirSpeed Indicator.

[englishal]

I just heard about this from my Brother....worrying and sad, particularly as I fly a TB10 from EGHH (in a similar colour scheme to the BBC photo).

A friend of mine almost ended up in a field in a TB20 when the pitot tube became bloked on takeoff. He was flying with a particularly large gentleman, and he thought he'd made a terrible w&b mistake. The thing that "saved" him was the GS reading from the GPS which indicated around >100Kts as opposed to 50-60 odd kts read from the ASI, he suspected it got blocked just about as he rotated. Once he realised the tube was blocked, the plane flew just fine....as you'd expect.

Its certainly very sad that IF an ASI caused this it could have been avoided......but as mentioned, we'll have to wait for the AAIB to report. Airliners have been brought down by dodgey ASI's...........maybe we rely on them too much, maybe there is a case to go out and practice flying around by "feel" alone........

:sad:

[VFE]

Condolences to those affected by this terrible accident. Fingers crossed for the survivors who remain critically ill at the specialist Burns Unit at Salisbury Odstock Hospital.

Would also like to thank Fernytickles for posting the link for complaints regarding the extremely distressing and offensive photo still being used by the BBC. Appalling.

VFE.

[Jetscream 32]

3 times in all

2 x catastrophic fixed wing, the first one in Chipmunk - G-BAVH at 300ft over a sewer farm with a very heavy glider on the back, con rod thro the side of the crank case, -turned back? second one in a Super Cub passing 1500ft landed in a nice big field! and 1 x battery fire on take off from Wellsbourne.

So i do think i am happy with my post - sorry your not!

[smithy2u]

Paul Smith

Bournemouth Handling Ltd.

Having now had an interview with the police and the AAIB I will offer you all what I have told them. Firstly the aircraft flew into Bournemouth from Gurnsey en route to Henstridge, unlike the tv reports are saying, it was inbound to the country not outbound. They had no known problems on the 1 hour flight over, stayed at Handling for approx 45mins-1hour, filled out a gen dec for customs, had a coffee, a quick look around the museum then I booked them out to Henstridge. I watched them carry out a walk around, start up, taxi, do pre take off checks and depart. At no point did I hear a rough running engine, notice anything unusual and if anyone wonders, no they did not fit a pitot cover. I was listening to the radio on departure and I heard them say very shortly after take off they had no indicated air speed and were turning back to the field. Shortly after the accident then happened.

Hopefully the two survivors will be able to explain one day what actually happened or the AAIB will be able to solve the mystery. Until such times all I can say is to make sure you all carry out a good walk around and make sure you know what to do if this ever happens to you. Oh and one other thing, if it wasn't for the gen dec knowning the crews details it would of been much more difficult to solve who they all were and who the police had to contact so please always make sure you fill them out and maybe let someone know who is in your aircraft whenever you fly. I don't think you would want your next of kin to be the last to know.

It was a sad day in aviation, lets hope this has made people realize sometimes things do go wrong. So be careful up there and know your emergency checks.


Paul Smith

[Monocock]

OK Jet, humble pie will be tasted but I still think the way you delivered your opinion followed by a "!" showed a particularly heartless attitude toward the situation.

Perhaps like me, it was his first problem on departure and perhaps he didn't remain as cool as we all like to think we could.

Whatever the case, it was a very sad event that just doesn't need picking to bits with "wind noise procedure" theories etc.

[smarthawke]

Firstly my condolences to all those involved, directly and indirectly.

Secondly my thanks to the BBC comments link - I've stated my feelings to them.

Thirdly, concerning the possibility of an ASI failure (whether or not it was a contributory factor in this accident is a matter for the AAIB to investigate). I have thought about it in the past and have decided that apart from the obvious visual and aural cues, I would use the GPS ground speed to assist in working out a rough idea of airspeed.

If you have just departed you should have a rough idea of wind speed and direction (even at a non-radio strip) and can use this to add or subtract from the GPS derived ground speed depending on the wind/runway direction. If you are en route then ask someone for a windspeed and direction.

My final thought would be not to attempt to land immediately but take your time to get settled with the problem. Don't land anywhere short, find the biggest runway available and with your GPS ground speed derived airspeed erring on the high side, land eventually. If it happens to be a military airport or other big place, tough. Argue the toss when you are safely on the ground.

What are other peoples views or methods for dealing with such a failure?

A very sad day.

[S-Works]

we were in the overhead at the time and listened to the event on the radio. maybe worth waiting for the AIB and the passengers statements before comment.

[Whirlybird]

I wouldn't panic (I hope!) or do anything in a hurry. The aircraft doesn't need an ASI to fly. I'd simply fly as normal. If you have a horizon, you can fly strainght and level, and if you set the usual rpm for the cruise, you know what airspeed that will give you. After all, how often do you look at the airspeed during normal flight? You can also listen to the engine. The only time I would be at all worried would be the approach, so I'd pick an airfield with a long runway, and tell them my problem, so that I could come in faster than usual.

[Buster the Bear]

http://www.rwlp.co.gg/

[pilotwolf]

Buster the Bear

Maybe I am missing something but is this link an underhand way of identifying one of the victims of this incident? :mad:

If so I hope you ll do the decent thing and remove it - as far as I know the names of those involved have not yet been released...

PW

[smallpilot]

I agree with pilotwolf - if the names etc are not yet in the public domain then its bad form to post that link and the moderators should have it removed.
I wont comment on the accident except to say its an awful event, my sympathy to all family + friends connected to this tragedy, and I too am angry at the BBC's use of photos in this case.

[shortstripper]

Not commenting on the accident at all (leave that to AAIB) ... and perhaps we should make a new topic of this.

ASI failure really should be a non issue! Forget bloody GPS :suspect: I'd be very worried about staking my life on a bit of elecwizardary ... just fly by attitude/feel. I can't believe there are pilots out there who worry (or depend so much) on a single simple instrument.

YOU DO NOT NEED AN ASI TO FLY!

If you can't fly by attitude you should *not* be flying ... if you can't judge your airspeed by other clues (if no horizon) you should ask if you *should* be flying!

Whatever, if not comfortable without ASI ... practice, practice, practice ... you don't need to be precise, but you do need to be safe :uhoh:

SS

[Croqueteer]

Shortstripper, Your "Fly by feel" and "Judge your airspeed" worries me. The truth is "Attitude plus power = performance" No guessing required.

[Whirlybird]

shortstripper and Croqueteer, aren't you both saying the same thing in different ways? Either way, I wouldn't be that comfortable doing the approach and landing without an ASI, and I'd like some advice on it. But not here..I'm off to start a separate thread!

[shortstripper]

Croqueteer

Whirlybird has pointed out the obvious and if you re-read my post you'll see what I say should cause no worry.

Flight by ATTITUDE is in my opinion an essential skill and flight by judgement a very desirable one. Attitude + power = performance, true, but attitude + no power simply means glide.

If there is no horizon to allow an accurate attitude assessment what's wrong with using other clues? RPM + VSI (climbing/descending) give a good one, so does control feel, sound, prestall buffet (depending on type) ect. None ideal, but all combine to give you a pretty good idea of airspeed.

I'm not saying throw out the ASI, but I really feel that if you are not happy (or at least OK) to fly without one ... you should seriously question your piloting skills.

SS

[kuningan]

The local Guernsey Press (http://www.thisisguernsey.com/code/shownewsarticle.pl?ArticleID=011840) has named the two survivors. Using a marginally less insensitive photo than the BBC.

[BRL]

I agree with pilotwolf - if the names etc are not yet in the public domain then its bad form to post that link and the moderators should have it removed. I missed that link going up, can't be here 24 hrs a day. I see they named the pilot yesterday anyway so the link would have stayed as the name was already in the public domain.

[Jetscream 32]

SS,

100% with you on this one, and as for this GPS crap, that really does worry me..... i wonder if anyone does actually look out of the window anymore or is it just the pax, and a few of us????

It all starts with the instructors, bring back the PPL Instructors, who have no desire to drive a 737, and have more than 250hrs and also know how to roundout and side-slip, but enjoy instructing and coaching someone from a trial leson thro to them getting their licence before really starting to learn for themselves?

Plenty of experience in the GA market going to waste in my mind.

Thoughts are my own:

JS

[smarthawke]

Jetscream 32

My point about the use of GPS was the fact that should the ASI fail there was often another piece of equipment fitted which may be of some help.

I made no mention of not looking out of the window! Having been brought up in gliders I know all about looking out (try mixing it in a busy thermal with a dozen other machines without) and not being totally reliant on the instrumentation.

I now have enough hours in my (powered) machine (that incidentally is a high performance taildragger which I can side-slip and round out) that I reckon I could cope with an ASI failure and land okay without any other input.

In times of crisis any small bit of help might be of assistance and it was this possible use of GPS that I felt might be of use to someone out there not quite as skilled as yourself.

[Jetscream 32]

Hey smartpants get back in your cage

1. im not skilled, im just lucky
2. i think you will find the thread started due to a problem shortly after T/O - probably not the best time to be head down looking at the GPS me thinks?

"that incidentally is a high performance taildragger"
pitts, extra or cap - what is it then? please advise I need an aerobatic fix soon?

js

[smarthawke]

JS

I think you'll find my original post was concerning the landing phase of flight and I had already distanced myself from any connection with the incident at Bournemouth.

Surely it goes without saying that during the climb out an ASI failure should be completely ignored whilst keeping full power and as gentle a climb gradient as possible until such a time and height the problem can be resolved or a suitable plan of action worked out?

Why is it when one replies round here without agreeing 100% with the original poster, the next post tends to result to name calling?

Oh, and nothing too aerobatically exotic I'm afraid, it's only an RV!

[Flybywyre]

Same thing happened to me once, complete failure (due to an insect in the system) on take off from Dinard to Bournemouth. It was an early morning flight, quite hazy and hot. Just got airborne, checked the ASI on the climb out and was surprised to see it reading 100mph. Pulled the nose back to get the correct climb speed and felt a slight shudder go through the aircraft, as I was thinking to myself "that felt like a pre-cursor to a stall" the stall warning light flickered on and off. I put the nose down slightly and checked the ASI and to my great surprise it was indicating 130mph and rising !
Realising something was far from right I put the nose down and flew over Dinard at 500 feet while I tried to get my head around what was happening
Anyway, analysing things afterwards three thing where very clear.

1) The loss of the ASI itself is not the end of the world. The real threat to safety is the time it takes you realise what is going on and then to take the correct action. I suspect this can be the case with other in flight problems

2) I consider myself lucky

3) If this had have happened (during the climb after take off) in IMC I would not be writing this now

Regards
FBW

[englishal]

3) If this had have happened (during the climb after take off) in IMC I would not be writing this now
Which is where, prehaps, a GPS GS readout may save a life........No point looking out of the window in IMC , you don't see much....;)

[Croqueteer]

Shortstripper, you still worry me! I've re-read your posts, and you still suggest that somehow you can fly by "feel". this is not possible, and also no power + attitude still equals performance, ie a glide profile. If you have no natural horizon, any of your gyro instruments (most a/c have at least a T/S) will give you the facts relating to your attitude, and GPS track info usually updates so quickly that it keeps pace with the compass. I'm not being flippant when I suggest you get some IF instruction from a good instructor. As to your last comment, I would not be worried flying in VMC with no instruments.

[VFE]

and you still suggest that somehow you can fly by "feel". this is not possible,
Interesting that you should dismiss shortstrippers comments. At slower airspeeds the controls become looser and more plyable - thus giving a damn good indication of slow airspeed and an impending stall. This is a fundamental of primary flying controls theory so quite how you feel it impossible to fly by feel is confusing me somewhat!

Please elaborate because I feel sure I've missed something! If you mean that flying by feel alone is dangerous (ie; when there is no external visual reference) then I agree - that is against all instrument flight common sense but in VMC and with pitot/static failure (and no GPS!) it is just as helpful as having horizon in view and the correct RPM set.

As an aside, if pitot/static failure has occured then there's every chance the VSI and altimeter will be giving erroneous readings too so be vigilant!

VFE.

[shortstripper]

Croqueteer

You still miss my point by taking it out of context.

I wasn't suggesting "fly by feel" as you put it, and certainly not in true IMC. What I said was flight by judging your airspeed using any clues available ... the "feel" bit is just one of those clues.

The aircraft I regularly fly has no gyro instruments and a very dodgy ASI that we still haven't managed to get working properly. That said it has a very benign stall, is easy to interpret airspeed and only flies in VMC. However, I have flown gliders in IMC with no gyro instruments and have done an IMC which had a lot of emphasis put on instrument failures and the use of other instruments to cross referance. In VMC I have no worries at all about losing my ASI and in IMC I know I can cope with no ASI or gyro instruments ... It makes life very hard but a compass, rev counter, altimeter and VSI will suffice (i reckon I might be sweating a bit though :\ )

Sure, if you want to be predantic ... of course attitude with no engine power (ie glide) = performance, as potential (or is t kinetic?) energy is the equivelent of power in the equasion, but you knew I meant that didn't you? ;)

Cherry picking points out of posts to suit your aurgument is all very well, but if you don't keep to the context of that post you might as well just rewrite it to suit. Tell me ... if you have no horizon to see attitude and no instrument that clearly shows it (such as an AI) ... how do you fly the attitude part of your performance sums? I'd say you either go to peices or "judge" your attitude/airspeed, by all clues available ... no? If you can't do this, I say again ... you should question your piloting skills.

Smarthawke,

I don't dismiss the idea of using GPS to aid you, but I feel that it's a bit too dodgy to rely on. After all, there would be too much lag and it reads groundspeed not airspeed. By the time it showed you were to slow you'd be stalled. I realise, however, that you meant to suggest it's use as another aid and in that context you are quite right to point it out.

SS

[VFE]

It makes life very hard but a compass, rev counter, altimeter and VSI will suffice
At the risk of repeating myself. The ASI, VSI and altimeter are all pitot/static instruments so if a blockage has occured then all three could be susceptable to errors.

VFE.

[shortstripper]

Point taken VFE

OF course ASI failures usually stem from blocked pressure lines (ice/insect) whereas ALT and VSI are supplied by static air which can be switched to alternate air ... or if necassary could have their glass broken to give a pretty good reading from cabin pressure.

THe biggest problem, as someone else has stated, is recognising that you have an instrument failure in the first place.

SS

[Whirlybird]

And I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that it helps to cover up the misreading instrument; even if you know it's misreading, it's hard to ignore it.

[VFE]

Indeed shortstripper. To open up the discussion a little let's consider a gyro failure in IMC and how this could specifically affect the AH. Another point worth making is that the turn and slip indicator is vital in the scan too, especially in IMC.

Good thread this. Nice to see some good coming out of such a terrible accident and that heart warming aviation community spirit pulling together in learning from the past and striving towards a safer future. Well done everyone.

VFE.

[Croqueteer]

Stripper, you are still worrying! If you had had proper IF training you would know that power can equal 0 in the equation, nothing to do with kinetic energy in this context, so you set 0 rpm and attitude that you know from training that will give a reasonable glide. You say about no AI. If you have neen flying in IMC for anything more than about 30secs with no gyro instrument, you will shortly be dead anyway, so losing your pressure instruments is no big deal, so for this thread it is safe to assume some form of attitude info. If you only have a DI and/or a turn indicator and are in IMC with no ASI, set power for what performance you want, ie s & l or descent/ climb, aprox trim, and keep the a/c flying straight using rudder only and you will be OK. I have kept myself alive from solo at 16 to still flying at 62, so something must be right. Mainly I know when to be scared.

[VFE]

If you have neen flying in IMC for anything more than about 30secs with no gyro instrument, you will shortly be dead anyway,
Whilst much of what you say from your many years of flying experience is very sound advice I feel you are too quick to rubbish certain things here. Having flown with someone who has experienced an AH gyro failure in IMC for real and succesfully recognised it by regular cross reference to the turn and slip co-ordinator and indeed, having had this emergency pulled on me in the sim (without expecting it) during an IMC take-off, it does not mean you're gonna be dead in 30 seconds although one can see that unless recognised you might very well be!

The key to most IMC instrument problems is a thorough scan as one instrument failure can very often be identified by reference and comparrison to other readings. To talk of mulitiple failures takes the topic into the realms of the absurd and could quite easily confuse someone in a real emergency so lets be careful just how in depth we go on the basis of probability.

VFE.

[shortstripper]

With the greatest respect Croqueteer, I would suggest that you are now picking holes, trying to twist what I have said and maybe even trying to suggest I'm a fool or poorly trained. That would not only be an insult to me but to my instructors ... some of whom were flying operationally in WW2 and knew a thing or two about instrument failures ... engine failures ... flak damage :uhoh:

As VFE has said ... to lose a gyro instrument in IMC is not a 30 second death sentence, or at least it shouldn't be. In any case we started off talking about the ASI, and the loss of that certainly should be well covered in instrument training. I am not fool enough to be unafraid or so cock sure to think I might not mess up ... but if I had a gyro failure in IMC I'm not about to throw up my hands in despair and take a cyanide pill. If I took what you said too literally ... I might just as well do that.

I too have been flying since 16 but I'm not 62 ... so what? what does that prove? I know plenty of very old drivers who quite frankly should have killed themselves years ago but didn't. Incidently I'm not suggesting old pilots or drivers are bad ... just that a long time without accident does always mean supreme skill.

If you wish to worry about me that's great, nice to know someone cares. Having read what you have said , I'll return the compliment and worry about you too :ok:

SS

[Ex Oggie]

For those of you that wish to complain about the graphic images used to illustrate this sad event, here is the link that you can use for direct contact with the online news side of the Beeb, slightly different to the other, although I used both! My condolances to all involved.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3281777.stm

[IO540]

I haven't read everything that been said about this incident here and everywhere else, but how does everyone "know" it was an ASI failure and nothing else?

I don't really think anybody would fly a plane into the ground, in VMC, just because the speedo was not reading correctly. After takeoff, one is at full power and being at full power is pretty obvious.

[Croqueteer]

Shortstripper and VFE, I did not say losing one gyro was fatal, I said trying to fly in IMC without any gyro reference would be fatal.
I will now bow out of this thread.

[Send Clowns]

I think some calm is needed here, and a few points to gather in, both about the discussion here and about safely flying with a problem.

Firstly, although I have it confirmed from a source independent of Paul (smithy2u) that the pilot did report no indication on the ASI, we do not know that this was the final cause of the crash. I agree therefore with IO540, and think we should relax our speculation a little.

However, in order to learn from this incident as early as possible, I did point out a few tips in my original post, as general advice. They considered what I then saw as the most likely possibilities, pitot blockage or power problem. To carry on that theme, can I suggest that instead of debating the issue you go and practice? Non-ASI flying is a non-event, if it has been experienced before. The only requirement to deal safely with it is to have done so in a calm environment, with an instructor who can see the ASI keeping you safe, so when it is encountered unexpectedly the pilot does not focus too heavily on the problem and instead flies the aeroplane!

Incidentally, every student whose ASI I have covered in the climbout has actually flown a perfectly safe circuit to very competent landing, on power and attitude only. Often they have kept airspeed more acurately than they did when they could refer to the instrument! There is no need to use anything other than good flying techniques. I would suggest that reference to an instrument unfamiliar in this role, such as GPS, can only be a distraction.

We have also been discussing at the club here our own favoured landing areas if we have an engine failure off that runway (26, for those that know EGHH). It is not the easiest but there are always options, so the discussion is very useful. Think about your own home airfields, next time you take off look at the fields availble, and as I said before, fly safely.

P.S. Croqueteer, you might like to be less confrontational in a sensitive debate. Especially when you are wrong. It is possible to fly in cloud on compass and pressure instruments only. It is just very difficult.

[Croqueteer]

Send C, Gyro compass, yes, magnetic compass no. With a magnetic compass you might prolong the agony, but when you've lost the place, you've had it.

[GTOTO]

I believe the rules on radio silence during a Mayday event should be changed.

At the moment every one keeps quiet and only responds if the pilots makes a request.

Having suffered an engine failure at 750ft and survived while a friend suffered the same at 300ft and spun in trying a 180.
Some one should have told him to keep the speed up ornot to do it.

I think ATC should give some standard advice, dependant on the failure.

Advice from ATC in this situation may have made the difference and help unload the pilot, it is very easy to go into mental overload, as mentioned and it does take time to assimilate the situation and plan a course of action.

My event lasted 90 seconds from engine failure to sitting in a field. Lucky

I would have appreciated ATC running over some do's and don'ts.
Like keep the speed up, I did, it is better to run into the far fence than stall in on approach.

Very sad the out come and how well would we cope in a very stressful situation.

ATC should have suggested to climb at say 300ft/min at full power to a decent altitude, then practise some handing before returning to the field.

GTOTO

[VFE]

Wishful thinking but when responsibilties such as those you recommend get delegated, the role of pilot in command becomes cloudied and the real problems begin. The ATCO does not know if the PIC is a 10'000 houred pro or a 100hr amatuer so his advice may easily be worth less than even the 100 houred pilot. In this day and age of liabilty and lawsuits, anyone who thinks they can play the hero by breaking the rules does so at their own risk.

The PIC is trained to deal with emergencies, obviously when the brown stuff hits the fan, some may falter (not saying that's the case here) but if one feels that one may need prompting by ATC in a real emergency then one best ground themselves until they feel confident enough to resume their role as PIC.

VFE.

[GTOTO]

n reply

In this stupid PC world of today you may be correct, better to watch someone kill themselves than interfere.

I am not suggesting orders only a gentle word, you feel very alone when it all goes quiet.

I forgot to switch of fuel and unlock the doors.

My friend was a high time pilot with a twin rating, so even the best could do with advice at times, probably more so and I feel it could have made a difference in many situations.


GTOTO

[Flyin'Dutch']

GTOTO,

Sorry to read about your mate but to think that some ATC advice would have made a difference is, I think unrealistic.

By the time they would have seen what was happening, secondguessing what the intentions are pressing the button and giving meaningful suggestions it will all have already happened.

And in the instance of your own EFATO how is ATC to know whether you have done the fuel and the door?

Nope when you are out there you are on your tod that is the way the cookie crumbles. ATC are more than happy to help when requested, but for the time being I am very happy that they keep quiet whilst I go through my drills and emergency checklist trying to keep the thing going and solving my problem.

Ever tried doing Rubik's cube whilst someone was rabbitting on in your ear. Try it and see how much more difficult it is.

There is a good reason why communicate is last item in the list aviate, navigate, communicate. Planes don't fly on radiowaves.

FD

[Whirlybird]

If you're overloaded, you can't listen. When doing my FI test, I was told not to speak to a student while they're doing a manoevre, not even to tell them they're doing well. You need 110% concentration in an emergency. And ATC don't have all the facts. They don't know whether landing straight ahead is into a tall building, and maybe you need to turn 90 degrees. Having them talk to you might help, but it might be the one distraction that stops you doing the right things and landing safely. Who's to know, and I personally would prefer complete silence when dealing with an emergency that needs an instant response. Of course, if you have time, a reassuring word is nice, and in my experience in those situations ATC can be absolutely wonderful.

[PPRuNe Radar]

The vast majority of ATC people will not have a flying licence.

Certainly the 'younger' generation of NATS controllers will only have had around 10 hours flying so how can they be expected to give ANY practical advice on every kind of aircraft which has a potential engine failure ? It's simply silly and they may even make matters worse by giving inappropriate instructions.

Probably about 60% of NATS controllers did get their PPL in the long and distant past as part of their ATC training, but if my unit is typical, then only a handful actually keep it going.

Non NATS controllers are probably even less likely to have had flying training unless they were enthusiastic enough to have paid for it themselves. (Chilli Monster springs to mind here !!)

In my PPL training, turning back after an EFATO was drummed in to me as a very silly thing to do. The chances of you cocking it up far outweight the chances of putting it down safely somewhere ahead or 30 degrees either side.

GTOTO, remember that ATC are not in the cockpit. They don't know anything about your experience, your ability (a different thing all together !!), what you are doing to resolve the problem, and what you have forgotten or are doing badly. As Pilot In Command, all the responsibility falls on you to do your best to get the aircraft back on the ground. No one else can do that for you. Nothing to do with being PC, that's the way it is and by signing the aircraft out (or starting the flight if you own it), then you have agreed to accept that responsibility.

For anyone tempted to turn back, go and simulate a take off at altitude with an EFATO. See how much height you lose in a 180 degree turn back to your 'runway' datum.

[Send Clowns]

Not true croqueteer and you have yet even to try and justify your assertion. Try a level turn onto East or West. Then climb or descent out of cloud on this heading, using a trimmed aircraft and small, incremental power changes. As I say, very difficult. Certainly not impossible!

[Ex Oggie]

Not wishing to prolong a sad and tragic thread, but I thought it appropriate to post the following e-mail received recently from the BBC, as it contains an apology and several posters had also objected to the reporting.



Dear Captain ******

Thank you for contacting the BBC. We appreciate you taking the time to e-mail us with your views.

We would like to apologise for any offence caused by the photograph in the news article you refer to. I hope you will accept that this would never be our intention. We have now removed the picture.

Kind regards

Garry
bbc.co.uk Customer Service