Oxford APP Training Loan

[reality check]

There was an earlier thread 'having to pay for a Type Rating as well' which refered to students getting a loan to pay for Oxford training.

I was shocked to hear that about 90% of Oxford students are paying for their training entirely with a loan.

Apprently they pay this back at £650 pcm for the next 11 years!

Is this true and is it really 90% of students?


(Please try and keep replies to these questions and don't start on about different schools and integrated/modular etc)

[EGAC_Ramper]

Certainly these days most students pay for things themselves mainly through I'd guess the proessional studies loans from the HSBC which you state as being 11 years.This is indeed the path I'll be going along on my training route most likely now through Oxford.With regards to the repayments £650 is not the set rate,as with interest rates going up the repayments are going up too!!:(


Regards

[reality check]

Interesting.

Without asking about your personal financial situation, what are these loans secured against? I guess it's a house, but does it tend to be a parent's house?

Also, does Oxford encourage people to take the loan?

[EGAC_Ramper]

Well for me the loan is the only viable option of gaining a fATPL before I'm 40!! As you say security is required and my own personal situation being one that I'm 22 with a couple of years credit history and no home ownership means my parents going gaurantor on the loan and sercurity being theirs and my home!! Which I'm deeply grateful for towards them in trusting me and allowing me to pursue that dream!!
The loans themselves are based on 2% above the Bank of Englands interest rates and the way it is going the costs will continue to rise.Though I'm sure as hell am going to give the dream a damn good go!!:ok:
I havent spoken to Oxford themselves regarding the loans but will be visiting them this Thursday while I'm over to do my Class 1 medical(fingers crossed) and so will no doubt bombard them with questions.


Regards

[reality check]

Thanks very much for your reply – you are exactly the type of person I had in mind when I said I was shocked about these loans.

There is nothing wrong with someone looking towards a future in any profession but a loan of this size must be considered very carefully. There is no guarantee of work once qualified and yet this is a huge repayment commitment.

I am very concerned about people being sold a ‘dream’ which is so expensive. I know the vast majority of students commit themselves to the training and will pass. However, there is a big difference between 18 months hard work to pass a course and 11 years to repay it.

It is all too easy to buy into a ‘dream’, but in your early 20s it is very difficult to know what career path to take. From my own experience, there is a great deal of satisfaction in embarking on one profession (non aviation), earning good money, making sound investments and progressing in life. Then being able to walk into Oxford aged 29 with the cash to do the course. Upon graduation I still had the financial stability to remain current etc.

When I did my course most people were in my financial position (whether it be by their own hard work or being fortunate in having money) and so I am surprised and alarmed that so many people are being taken in by this.

It is very simple, don’t buy what you can’t afford. You would be better getting an Aston Martin, at least it would have a residual value in 18 months!

I am afraid that more people will lose their homes than will get a job.

[Taiguin]

Hey guys,

I can shed some light on the matter after being in touch with OAT regarding financial side of things.

Firstly it must be said that each individuals circumstances are different therefore the loan entitlement etc will be different from one person to the next.

However i understand that most people will have to

- Have a deposit equal to 10% of what they want to borrow.
- They will also need to secure 50% of the loan amount. This is usually done through a house of other valuable assets. Majority of younger peeps get their parents to sign the contract for this bit.

Like i said though the above depends on circumstances but i'm not sure HSBC borrow the whole amount unless you can secure it whole with a mortgage etc. I'm off to OAT this weekend so will ask more then.

Hope this helps shed light on the matter,

Ian

[EGAC_Ramper]

Thing is I have to say though Reality-check is I have worked my ass off.Went out and got a job working at an Airport.Learning much from ground crew and pilots alike.Saved got my PPL and am off to hour build.All of the hours and back breaking labour I do I ain't being "sold a dream" and as for not knowing the career path,well i and I'm sure many other would argue this.I've considered other careers and gone and got qaulifications to boot incase I never could be a pilot.Aswell as this once I finish training if it means working in an office til I get that job I've alweays wanted so be it.Personally your comments are somewhat offensive.Your pigeon holing everyone who takes out loans as being idiots who dont know what their doing.

I'm not being taken in by anything


Regards:ok:

[London Girl]

I can probably add my 2p worth to this...

I have a loan to start on the APP course at Oxford - there is no way anyone could borrow the full amount to attend the course as the max borrowings on the HSBC professional studies loan is 50k. Therefore, students will need to have at least 20k saved/parental help to attend the course once living is taken into account. On the current interest rates the repayments work out at around £610 (though can't be sure as I'm not borrowing this amount). Rate is variable of course so who knows what could happen over 11 years - they could go up or down...

As for security, it seems most of the students at places like OAT, Cabair, Jerez don't have properties so parents tend to put their house up as security. HSBC will also consider life policies and public shares for security.

Like me, I am sure they all have their reasons for taking loans of this size. I don't think the 90% figure is far off from what I have seen at OAT and Cabair....

[Mooney12]

Im getting a 65k loan from the HSBC professional studies scheme to cover my CTCMcalpine training., which I thought was maximum.

[touch&go]

EGAC_Ramper there is nothing offensive with ‘reality check’s post he has given some good advice about the amount of debt people are taking on before starting a course, maybe you should have a search on these pages for a post about people going bankrupt after finishing an airline course because they couldn’t finding the well paid dream job and the only work they could find was low paid none aviation job.

At this moment in time I think it’s reckless to undertake a loan of 70k plus secured on your family home, with some say up to 1500 low hour pilots chasing the same jobs, now if you had earned and saved most of the course money before starting a course and you only had a smallish loan then it would be a fair gamble but to face £700 per month loan payments after finishing a course could well destroy your life.

Good luck, you’ll need it on these terms.

[reality check]

London Girl - Thanks for your post.

I suppose there have always been people taking a loan for training, but 90% of students seems incredibly high. 90% of students will not get a suitable job to repay it.

As you are about to embark on this route perhaps you can enlighten me?

Are training providers advising people to take out a loan?

[Alex Whittingham]

Mooney 12, the reason you have been offered such a large sum is that your future employment is virtually guaranteed. The normal limit is lower.

[London Girl]

reality check

I agree 90% seems high, and you're right in the current climate not all of these will get a job to be able to make the repayments!

I can't speak for everyone who takes a large loan - I am 27, have a very good degree, postgrad qualifications and am qualified in a professional capacity, which I can always return to on a salary of c.£70k rising to well over £100k within 2 years (yes - most people think I'm mad leaving it too!). So I know that even if I don't get a job with the airlines, I have a fall back option.

However, I think I am in the minority - at the schools I visted I met many 18, 19 year olds fresh out of school. They are taking a much greater risk by not having a Plan B. Personally I wouldn't have done it this way.

As for the schools - the don't 'encourage' anyone to take the loan. They didn't enquire into my financial circumstances and certainly didn't pressure me to take a loan, but they did offer me a standard business plan to help me get a loan if I required. At the end of the day these schools are businesses and number 1 aim is to make money! So who can blame them for doing their best to get students? However, as for OAT they put all potential APP students through a selection process, so are only offering financial help to students they think will make the grade.

It just seems in this industry, people want it so much, no person or school needs to encourage anyone to take a loan - they will do it anyway!

[esvdx]

Just an idea, but given you current salary around the c £70k mark, why don't you just knuckle down, cut back on outgoings, and save £20-30k over the next 12 months. This will mean a far reduced loan to repay over the next 10+ years. Plus if it all fails, you've got one year more of experience in another professional industry to fall back on?

I've just done this for 2 years and given the current climate it will be a relief to finish my modular training with no or little debt.

esvdx

[GuinnessQueen]

Yeah, I've got to agree with the last poster...work an extra year and save the dosh (at least some of it)....I'm not sure there is much point in rushing to get qualified at the moment.

Also take into account 1 years loss of earnings...and that adds to the ATPL price!

You would have to be on a pretty good salary to pay back £650 per month for the next 11 years...maybe I'm just a wuss when it come to owing the bank money.

GQ

[London Girl]

I've been here for 3 years saving around 30k. And that's enough! You're right I could just knuckle down for another couple of years and save double but I just feel so tired of it all. I hate living in the city and do feel that at 27, will be qualifying at 29, I don't want to wait much longer. I know it's possible to get a job much older than 29/30 but at the moment with no 'ties' so to speak it seems like a good time to do it.

And yes - my quote of £550 ish for the loan I am taking seems a lot! I can't imagine what £650 would feel like!

[esvdx]

Why not take the hard earned £30k and start a modular course? Not starting a Integrated vs. Modular discussion but..... as mentioned all around PPRuNe you could finish with a frozen ATPL for under £40k. The repayments on the difference would surely be much easier to manage if the job situation looks tough on completion?

Remember you can do modular CPL / IR at all the 'flash' schools (Oxford, Cabair, Jerez etc...) and save some useful money for that Type Rating it seems we all now need to fund!

esvdx

[Biscuit]

London Girl,

I was in exactly the same position as you. I was same age, worked in the City and had about 30k too. I figured just what esvdx has said and now I'm getting towards the last few months of flying and not regretting my decision. I will have my fATPL and only be in a small amount of debt. Maybe 5/6k max... Nothing I've seen so far has led me to believe I will have gained much by doing the integrated course.

B

[reality check]

London girl – thanks for your replies, you are going about things in a well considered way. My concern is with the 18, 19, 20 year olds you mentioned. Taking a 60k loan for anything without knowing how it will be repaid is insane, particularly as more money is required after graduation to remain current etc. It is obvious to me that these people are stepping into a potential financial disaster.

I know it is just business for the training providers but it is sad they are so willing to take advantage of young people in what should be a responsible and well regulated industry.

[London Girl]

Thanks for the advice - I listened hard to all of the arguments for and against integrated and modular. I don't want to get into the pro's and con's of each but this is how I made my decision:

The money aspect of going modular certainly appeals! I do know that I prefer a structured course and environment - so that was my main deciding factor. Also my next door neighbour is a training captain and my boyfriend's dad is in recruitment of a major airline (good contacts eh?). Both advised me to go integrated. I know there are benefits of going both ways, but after this advice my decision was made!

I agree it's going to be a lot tougher financially, but I just want to give myself the best start in this career. At the end of the day it may not make a difference, but nobody really knows that for sure - for me it was deciding between the financial risk, or the risk that airlines do really prefer integrated. I went for the latter.

(Speak to me in 2 years tho when the repayments kick in - I may have changed my mind!)

[BoraBora007]

Good decision. More chance of a job integrated. fact.

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

More chance of a job integrated. fact.

ABSOLUTE TOSH!:rolleyes:

It makes little difference some airlines PREFER it; most others don’t care ether way and some think a licence that has been done as and when their personal finances (i.e. modular stage by stage)allow shows true dedication and commitment. This is the FACT!

Do what suits YOU best. Here’s a an 'unofficial' quote from head of recruitment of a MAJOR airline.
I couldn’t give a fcuk how they got their licence, if I don’t think I could put up with them for a night stop then they've got no fcukin' chance.

2 WINGS
:ok:

[BoraBora007]

2wings - I take it you did the modular route? :mad: wit

Integrated people have been shown in surveys to get more jobs quicker. Fact!

Channel Express won't even take low houred guys unless their integrated. Its all about continuity.

Integrated costs more money, but leads to a better chance of a job. Fact!

Way of the world. May not be fair buts its true. Fact!

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

Ha Ha Ha
Whatever you say:p !

Your other post amused me too! You super talented person you!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141180&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Integrated people have been shown in surveys to get more jobs quicker.
I’m sure everyone would like to see these surveys, why don't you post them up here on PPRuNe?

Do you abuse your F/O like that when he disagrees with you? I was just reiterating a genuine comment made to me by somebody who makes recruitment decisions, if that’s different at your airline then so be it but I would say that yours is in the minority! I know I wouldn’t like to spend 6 hours in a small cockpit then a few days with somebody I absolutely detest even if he/she the most 'talented', skilful knowledgeable pilot in the universe!

2 WINGS
:ok:

[DVR6K]

Thought we were trying to steer well clear from the whole integrated v modular argument?

So here we go, back on topic...

I am starting the APP in September (doing it because it is the right course for me not because I hate modular people or anything...) and have applied for the HSBC loan. My understanding is that it was £30,000 unsecured and then up to £50k with security of some sort (security on property or parental guarantees etc).

I am not getting the full 50k as have some set aside (and a Dad who wants free flights which has helped a bit too I admit! ;) ) and am staring repayments of 450+ quid a month in the face post APP but I don't see this as a problem as I have sufficient contingency in place in case I don't get that flying job straight off. HSBC require you to state your contingency plans in the business plan to check you've got something sussed.

With the way the Bank of England are playing around with interest rates, my 450 quid a month will surely increase before repayments begin.

I am well aware that the job market is pretty tough so I am going to be looking at non-flying aviation jobs as well as flight deck stuff to pay my way when I graduate just in case.

But I am bloody keen, bloody hard working, and have already laid foundations for a career in aviation that I surprise myself with sometimes. I have loads of contacts and constant pestering and job applications along with hard graft and a kind hand (as it were) from lady luck will help me get the job I want. It'll happen at some point - fact!

But b****cks to it. I am a whipper snapper at 23, have a degree, lots of debt, have spent a year working in Madrid, and a year working in finance for a well known high-street chain in Manchester (though going by their current crisis, I don't think I did a very good job!!) and have no real long term work "experience" as such but I happen to know there are a number of graduates fresh outta uni without a bean (but reasonable bar work experience) who are starting the APP soon. Good on 'em. My only advice to them would be make sure you can cover your arse before embarking on the course and work like a an army of killer ants on heat.

Without a doubt the more of a head start you give yourself the better with regards funding the APP, but it can be done from scratch if you are fortunate to a) be loaded or b) have parental support. I am certainly prepared to spend a few more years eating Tesco value beans on Tesco value toast (other value brands are available) to fly for a living. Sod it, I'll live like a turd for a few years but I'll spend my days doing the thing I love most in the world before returning to my dingy flat to watch Eastenders on my Black and White TV (without TV licence) perched on a cardboard box inside a stolen Saisbury's shopping trolley in the corner of my living room every evening. And then doing it all over again the next day.

There are going to be many more debt-ridden pilots to come in the future, it's a fact of the aviation industry now.

BRING IT ON!!!!

[Taiguin]

Here Here!!! :ok:

I totally agree mate. Couldn't have put it better myself. People often say to me that i'd be stupid to put myself in that much debt....well yeah it is quite risky....but what we'll get at the other end would be well worth the expense in the long run.

I'd rather struggle with money that be doing a 9-5 job that i hate day in day out. Theres no better office in the world than that of the cockpit so i agree, financial hardship, tesco economy beans and all......BRING IT ON!!

Off to OAT tommorow to check it out, see what i'm letting myself into!!

Ian :cool:

[Eliza]

I'm 25, and after getting great degree and a career under my belt to fall back on if need be, am starting APP at Oxford in September. Am super super keen and am prepared to work my a*se off to get a job at the end of it.

Yes., I've taken a big loan too - just over the standard max in fact and it's very scary! But it was my decision to make no matter what anyone else says or thinks. I'm not stupid and definitely not reeled in by all this marketing rubbish that emanates from the big schools about getting students jobs etc, but decided I wanted to give myself the best chance possible. So have decided to pay the bit extra and go to the school with (what I believe has) the best reputation!

CAll me crazy but I'm just want this too much and if a loan of this size is what it takes then so be it. And probably won't be the only one on my course that feels like this....

Can't we have a proper discussion on this site without descending into these tiring modular v integrated arguments???! Not everyone on this site is ever going to agree so we may as well listen to others' opinions and accept that they are different to ours!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I think you are mad.

Go modular - get better training than available at certain large FTO's - spend £45k. Channel Express may only take integrated 'graduates' (though how they can tell from the logbook is highly questionable). But easyJet don't give a stuff. Nor do Ryanair or Britannia or BACX.

Who are the only airlines that have done any low hours recruitment in the last couple of years.

So go ahead. Fill yer boots with a massive loan just to improve that star shot chance of a Channex job :rolleyes:

Me - I'd go modular and with the £25 in my pocket I'd maybe offer to pay for a F27 type rating if they'd please take me on, pretty please.

I think that might cut a little more mustard than having worn some poncy braid during those mighty Warrior hours...

Go ahead, lock yourself away for 15 months in a training establishment then mailshot 200 companies. Meanwhile Joe Modular will be out and about in the big pool of aviation getting to know people and places. Trust me - all you are trained to do is pass the skilltests and the IRT. You don't know a single thing more or better about flying by going to a big fancy school.

I tend to think the opposite is true.

Cheers


WWW an ex-Integrated Instrument Rating Instructor...

[fly-half]

London Girl, if your boyfriend's dad is in recruitment for a major airline then you will be given a greater chance than many to get work through him as a pilot, provided of course that you pass the sim-assessment (and your ATPL studies).

I was integrated at Oxford, qualified exactly one year ago and, of the 14 on my course that left at that time only 3 have managed to obtain flying work with airlines! Each of them had been put forward by Oxford for assessment by the airlines involved. All were under the age of 22.

I had the time of my life working hard to achieve my life's ambition. I loved it but when I finished the course it really was like having the bubble burst after being sheltered in an environment protected from the harsh reality that it would be very very tough to find work. I was made to feel a failure for failing one of fourteen ground exams and partialling my IRT. The careers advisor told me to hide my date of birth in my CV. I'm only 28!

I am currently earning only £15K p.a. working in Operations on a temporary contract for a major airline, gaining excellent experience and of course getting a good foot in the door for a flying job. I'm single, with only about £10K of debt so I can afford this poor pay for now. I have been told by the chief pilot that I will be given an assessment in October to be taken on as a pilot over the winter if I pass. I am obviously very excited about this opportunity!

I suppose I have gone off on a tangent here but the point I would like to make is that it is very tough finding your first job and you need to be prepared to be 'in it for the long term'. I am beginning to wonder if the thing that really matters to pilot recruiters is not which FTO you qualified at or what grades you achieved, but what you have been doing with your time since qualifying.

Good luck and enjoy!

[London Girl]

I'm not going to rely on having the benefit of my boyfriend's dad as a contact - anything could happen in two years. It would be nice if I still had that contact once completing the APP but who knows?

I'm just going to give it my best shot. It won't be nice if I can't get a job at the end of it but I'm hoping that I can go back into my current job until something comes along. It won't be anything aviation related but at least will pay the bills. I'm lucky that the nature of my job means I can freelance so could pick and choose my days so that I could fly and remain current.

As it happens, lots can happen in one evening - seems I am not going to be starting when I wanted to. Due to personal reasons January now looks more likely. Plus I can pick up that Christmas bonus!

fly-half I can't believe you were told to hide your DOB - that's ridiculous!

Anyway, I know its Friday but better get at least some work done or I won't be going anywhere...

[no sponsor]

£650 a month is completely bonkers - that means that your training will cost £85,000 at todays price!! Which, if I've got my sums right, is about double what it could have cost you. Not only that, it would be more than half your take-home pay as a turbo-prop F/O!! You couldn't even think about being an instrcutor for a couple of years.

This lark seems about making choices to give you options. That route closes most of them.

It's a mill-stone that I am quite sure you will be regretting five years in. And you'd still be thinking, 'only another six years to pay it off'



:ugh:

[Taiguin]

At the end of the day London Girl will qualify with a frozen ATPL and a good chance of getting a job with a major airline. It may not happen straight away, in a year, or even at all BUT at least she could live in the knowledge she gave it a try!!!

She'd be in debt, but if she has a degree behind her then she should secure good employment with good wages to pay off the loan. Richard Branson is my idle and he's always believed "You don't get anywhere without taking risks". Well peeps, London girl is one of many who are willing to take that risk and maybe, just maybe, get that dream job at the end of it!

I'm definately considering it next year but hopefully i'll find sucess with CTC first!

All the best Eliza and London Girl. I think APP is worth the price. It's hard to distinguish between people who have the same flying ability so it comes down to personnal qualitites. OAT prepares you for this, and does a lot to ensure your marketable in the end. I found http://www.AP231.co.uk to be most helpful in making a decision. These guys look like they're having a great time, raising money for charity and becoming more rounded people.

Ian

[esvdx]

I think no sponsor has a very valid point - taking on such a large debt narrows the choices you will have when you complete your studies no matter which route you take.

When you need to repay £650pm your options are limited and may restrict the decisions you can make that will affect your future aviation career. For me, flying turo-props round the Scottish Islands sounds fun for a few years but not if you are servicing such large repayments at the same time.

No matter what people's emotions says, getting into the flying industry is, at some level, a business decision (because we will work for businesses, train at businesses and borrow money from businesses).

However, to me the business case of £50,000k+ loan simply doesn't stack up with the current job market and opportunities within the next 18 months - this goes for Mod or Integ.

esvdx

[DVR6K]

At the end of the day, foolish or not, those that have expressed their desire to go on to the APP are doing it because it is the right choice for them right now in their circumstances. So what, you can get an ATPL for half the price in a modular course somewhere in double the time but that doesn't suit me, which is why I am not doing it.

There are far too many negative attitudes with student pilots who have got their ATPLs and think they're the dog's knackers and expect to walk into a job. Examples a plenty in the wannabe forums on this site. Look at the thread about paying for your own type rating for example. But that's good, because it's negative attitudes that don't get you jobs, which means more chance for me.

As long as you work your arse off right up until the point you have nailed that first job, you will get one pretty smartish. Loganair or whatever, it's flying and that is ALL I want to do. Yes, the right hand seat of a 747 would be nice, but that will come with time as long as you have got the ambition. Sod the repayments and get on with it that's what I say!! If you work hard enough at a "risk" it will pay off.

Firm believer about making your own luck and if doing the APP narrows my choices further down the line, I'll make sure I find a job that suits my circumstances in 2 years. It is as simple as that it's just most people haven't got the ambition and drive to make something they want to do happen the way they want it to.

[TRon]

Thats Tosh about Channex, they took two Modular guys through CTC last March.

[GuinnessQueen]

DVR6K

Glad to hear you have chosen a route that suits you. But a couple of your comments are interesting.

Firstly the job hunting, the industry is volatile, always has been, always will be. But your comment...

"As long as you work your arse off right up until the point you have nailed that first job, you will get one pretty smartish."

I appreciate that it is easy to assume all those without a job are 'negative' and not hardworking, this is not always the case. From experience of watching a family member job hunt in the late 90's, he worked very hard to send out CV's (30+ a month),gained 1000hours and had a day job but it was still 2 years before his first TP job.

It's a fine line we have to balance between being negative or being naive!

Your other comment which caught my attention was:

"Sod the repayments and get on with it that's what I say!! If you work hard enough at a "risk" it will pay off."

Hmm, interesting for a 'finance bod'!....not sure I could see the pressure of substantial debt in the same light as you.

I will have to rely on borrowng some money, but even on my current salary (about the same as a cargo TP F/O) there is no way I could repay back more than £450 month...hence that limits how much I'll be prepared to borrow.


I very rarly post in direct response to another post (rather than the topic), but your comments did catch my eye.

Hope your choices work out for you, who knows we might be sitting next to each other in a few years time!

[Eliza]

After reading this thread I'm still very confident about my decision.

So what if some of us choose to take big loans? We don't expect to be earning big bucks as pilots and know it will be a stuggle at times paying them off. But that is the choice some of us make - and it's not a decision made lightly or in the dark! I for one am very positive about the future, just because I know I am doing the right thing for me.

I am the one that will be stuck with the £600 repayments and if I'm not too bothered about it, then nobody else should be either!

Anyway, good luck to everyone whichever route you decide to take.

[Straightandlevel80kt]

The only sensible thing to do is stuff being a pilot and go and work for HSBC.

I don't know anyone on this thread personally, but I'd guess we're all nice people, and all striving for the same goal to be up among the clouds. Let's remember we're all very privileged people to be in the position where we can have these discussions and make these decisions. Most folks never get the chance.

What I do think is sad is that the predictions of a few years ago are now coming true, namely that an airline career is fast becoming the preserve of the investment banker who gets bored and wants to jolly up their life with a new hobby now they are financially secure, rather than of those who have truly slogged their guts out since childhood because, money aside, flying is the one pastime (other than sex) which gives them more pleasure than anything else in the world.

I wish you all well, whatever route you choose. I won't wish you luck, because I'd prefer you to have something firmer on which to base your future.

[Andy_R]

How many of those who are getting into this HUGE amount of debt have considered how they are going to live?

£650 month repayments, in the south east a minimum rent of £550 month, council tax £75 month if single allowance, £200 for baked beans and toast, assuming no car then £40 month transport to work...... we're up to £1515 a month already :uhoh:

Or are we all going to live at home for the foreseeable future? No partner (or a rich one!), can't afford to start a family, go out, buy birthday/xmas presents etc etc etc.

I agree the likes of London Girl CAN afford to take the risk, but there is no way I would've risked all my parents had worked for to satisfy my "need" for an fATPL.

Is there anyone over say 25 who is independant who is prepared to do this?

Sorry, but I agree with WWW. Sheer madness, and to an extent, total disbelief that the wider, longer reaching effects of being in this deep cannot be seen.

Severe reality check required me thinks.


Good luck to one and all.

[DVR6K]

Well, here I am fresh back from sunning myself in the various beer gardens of central Manchester and feeling gooooood.

Guiness Queen - You will note that my post, and previous posts, referred to some posts on PPrune by people who are fed up with job hunting and seem close to admitting defeat. It was this kind of approach to job hunting I said I do not want to fall foul of, and not that of your family member. Naivety, thankfully, is not an attribute I possess.

We've all heard the words "reality check", "foolish" etc many times on this thread so I won't go into repeating the sentiments of those of us embarking on the career of our dreams. All I should really say is "see above". We're only really getting ourselves into questioning the actions of people who are different, and who have different ways of going about things which is surely a topic for some theological forum and not PPrune!!

My financial skills, whilst new to me, have raised me from £5 an hour temp at my company to 2 years off my boss' position in 9 months, they can't be that bad!! :ok:

Good luck to all, looking forward to seeing you in a couple of years up there in the flight levels...