Flight Plans for GA, and do most pilots know how to use them?

[Slowsafecruise]

After a certain 'incident' that happened in work today, it made me wonder do most pilots know how to file a Flight Plan correctly and do most of us know how to use them?

Basically to summarise, we had received a flight plan for some guy who wanted to fly from N.I to the Northwest of England in a flex- winged micro!
The weather on both side of the Sea was fine and the guy had set off as per plan, however with about 40mins left on the aircraft’s ETA the weather this side had deteriorated very badly with strong winds and very heavy rain! (Not forecasted).
With the ETA becoming ever more closer, and the weather worsening we had decided to ring his point of departure and see if the guy had actually left, or turned around due to bad weather.. The A/C had departed and was handed off by the particular ATC unit so using the info from the very detailed routing off the received flight plan 'we' was able to ring around various ATC / RADAR units and try to track the current position of the aircraft. Cutting a long story short the micro was finally tracked down just on the Northwest coast of England and was putting down into a small micro strip due to the worsening weather. Later on the pilot phoned us, after ringing Flight Plans himself, and iformed us of what had happened. Thankfully the pilot of this micro was very switched on and knew what he was doing, before and after landing and all ended well.

However it got me thinking, If the flight plan had not been so detailed with routing etc, would this of been as easy for the ground services to track him down? Also how many of us would of decided to ring someone and let them know they had let down at a particular place (which was not the initial destination, nor the Planned Divert)?
Also, since 99.9% of us have mobile phones these days, would it not be an idea to include this under 'other remarks' when filing a flight plan?

Anyway this particular incident did get me thinking, and i decided to make this post in the hope that it to would get you thinking.. After all that’s what this forum is all about .. Right?

SSC.

[AerBabe]

A very good point, SSC. Being fairly new to working in aviation, and not having filed a flight plan as a pilot, I'm only just seeing the tip of the iceberg with the problems flight plans can cause if they're not filled in correctly. I've seen the wrong registration turn up for an aircraft because the pilot's handwriting couldn't be read... I've seen flight plans arrive with us instead of the real destination because someone has typed in the wrong ICAO code... etc etc. Oh, and frequently they are filed late! They're a fantastic safety net when used correctly... DO SO. :} ;)

And if your handwriting is less than neat, ask a mate to help.

[Slowsafecruise]

AerBabe

As you say they can cause problems if not written neatly, but i am pritty sure there must be one out there somewhere where you can type it out and print it off?

SSC

[v6g]

In Canada, the last question they ask us when we file a plan is always, "Is there a cell-phone on board?".

[clearthedecks]

Not filed one myself, so don't claim to be an expert, but here is an electronic form that can be filled in and printed.

<http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/image/CA48.pdf>

[WestWind1950]

Is there a cell-phone on board?". that won't be much help if it's turned off, which it should be when on board ........and that's NOT because of possible disturbance to the aircraft's electronics but do to receiving station overload...but this was discussed somewhere else in pprune I believe.

How many pilots know about the recent changes to filling out flight plans? At least now in Germany the pilots, not ais, must fill in that complicated address at the top. I only know it because it was one of the subjects at a recent instrutors training seminar I attended.

Westy

[WorkingHard]

SSC - what a splendid reminder, thank you. In our haste these days we tend to "be brief" and, as you so rightly point out, it is not alway the best policy. I file with Heathrow and have always found them to be extremely helpful on the odd occasions when I have sought advice. Have always included mobile number in remarks.
Yes this is what PPRUNE is best at

[WorkingHard]

SSC - I know this has not been posted for long but it seems safety info is not high on people's lists if the number of "hits" let only responses is anything to go by. Someone please tell me I am wrong.

[Slowsafecruise]

Workinghard

I know what you are saying however in 24hrs 190 odd people have read it, even if it triggers something in there minds when they next file a plan, then it was worth the effort it took to post!

Thanks for the Comments so far though :)

[Whirlybird]

WorkingHard,

You are wrong. ;) At least in my case, and I suspect I'm not unique. I've been away for a week, and I'm only just catching up on life in general, and that includes PPRuNe. It's the height of the holiday season; give people a chance.

Slowsafecruise,

Excellent thread, and a good reminder of what flight plans are for. Something I'd like to add. Once, way back, I filled in a flight plan form, then realised I couldn't get to my planned destination (fog or something; can't remember). I picked another airfield in the same area, and just changed the ICAO designator on my flight plan. I forgot to change the ETA...and the flight was about half an hour longer. Add to that the increased headwind (sod's law of course), and when I arrived they were considering starting to look for me!

Moral of this tale; always check over your flight plan before you file it! In my case, embarrassment and wrist slapping were all that occurred. But the mistake could have been the other way round; I could have been heading for somewhere closer than originally planned, been in trouble, and no-one would have realised until much later. :eek:

[Slowsafecruise]

Whirlybird

Thanks for your kind comments! did you go anywhere nice for your holidays? i wish i was going away! lol

Anyway glad you made your input the only way to learn is from mistakes and i am sure its much better to learn from others! :)

SSC

[Squadgy]

And another thing --- Why do people who aren't on flight plans book out for a local and then land away but not bothering telling anyone :mad:

[bar shaker]

SSC

I know the pilot well and he is now in northern France, en-route to Portugal with 8 other microlights. Many are not as experienced and your post is a good, timely reminder that we must keep in contact, especially if conditions change. AL was full of praise for people who "were looking out for him".

He was calling Scottish info, but as he was scud running, he couldn't get a response.

If you are going to France from Headcorn, as this group were, Jamie will not file your flight plan without mobile numbers.

Ince to northern France in a day... not bad for a flexwing microlight :cool:

bs

[FlyingForFun]

Personally, I found the initial post very interesting.....

All the advice I've ever heard (from ATCers posting on these forums, and from ATCers whom I've met face-to-face either socially or when visiting towers/centres) has been that route information on VFR flight plans is ignored. Although putting a detailed route onto a flight plan won't harm anyone, it's generally a wasted effort.

SSC, your post is an example of why that effort is not wasted, and I shall, when I next have reason to file a flight plan, make sure I put as much route information on it as possible, and advise others to do likewise.

FFF
--------------

[Slowsafecruise]

FlyingforFun

Many thanks for the reply,
I dont know who has told you not to put much detail into your plan, but the way i see it the more the better! Easier to trace you then, should anything go wrong (god forbid).

SSC

[down&out]

Interesting thread- coupled with our dear friend going through Eastbourne, shows the value of flight planning and flight plans.

On the question of "how many know" I guess the answer is probably ‘only those that need to’. I don’t know the proportion, but allot of people seem to only do VFR local flights or stay on mainland UK, so as they don't need to file them* & would understandably not remember how to do a flight plan. Also, when I was learning to fly, all-be-it in a University Air Squadron, I remember my instructor having to read up on how to complete one, the one time we used one. I wonder if it would be the same for many FI's?

I know this is slightly off topic, but I would love to see the results of a survey of what type of flying people do - i.e. local bumble only local aeros, UK only, international, Work, fun etc. Has this been done before, and if not could we do one on PPPRuNe?


*Before anyone else says it: - unless flying over inhospitable terrain.

PS. On the subject of mobile phones, I'd previously been advised to include the number if so if ATC had a question before the flight they could get to you - I think this thread also shows the post flight value.

PPS.
WestWind1950's post has reminded me of a question I would love an ATC answer from. A number of places, eg Guernsey, ask that a specific address is put in the address section of the Flight plan. Now in the UK I've always been told to leave the address section blank and so have assumed the filing ATSU recognises where these requests are needed and completes them - is always correct?

[Aim Far]

Flight Plans for GA, and do most pilots know how to use them?

I think most people can fill out a flight plan. You tend to learn by trial and error though rather than being taught. On the day of your first channel hop (no doubt to Le Touquet), fill out the flight plan using a guide, give it to the club/FBO, most places will tend to check it over before faxing it off. If it works, do it the same way the next time, if not do something different.

The problem seems to be with the details and the questions which don't come up every flight. I am perfectly happy to admit that I don't know the official answers to things like

a) where does a VFR plan get sent to? (some places, the enroute people seem to get it, others not)
b) how long before and after the EOBT can you depart? (1 hour after seems to be OK for VFR, is that right?)
c) how do you delay and adjust plans once filed (get the FBO to do it)
d) is an hour's notice really necessary for a VFR plan or will you get away with shorter notice (seems to vary country to country and place to place)
e) do you need to close a plan (no in UK, yes elsewhere (either by the Tower or direct to AIS)) - and why is UK different?
f) do you need to close a plan terminating in UK if you put somewhere on the continent as alternate?

Anyone?

[Penguina]

QUOTE]where does a VFR plan get sent to? (some places, the enroute people seem to get it, others not)[/QUOTE]

I was surprised recently when I phoned UK customs to ask if it would be a problem to return to the UK from France earlier than I had specified (nasty front on the way later...). They said, 'not a problem, we'll keep an closer eye on your flight plan'. I had assumed that smaller GA flight plans were not circulated that widely, but it seems that those in charge of security as well as ATC watch plans that are filed...

[special_ig]

Probably not that important, but for VFR flights, should the routing information be written under "Route" or under "Remarks"?

I filed a flight plan in Sabadell, Spain, last weekend and the guy in charge had me change it because I had put the routing info under "Route" (as one would, I guess). He claimed that was only for IFR routings/procedures and insisted I include the route under "Remarks". Filing my flight plan back to Sabadell in Perpignan, France, the lady asked why I had been so silly as to put the Route info under "Remarks"....

special_ig

[Chilli Monster]

Special
Probably not that important, but for VFR flights, should the routing information be written under "Route" or under "Remarks"?
The route section - you were ill advised at Sabadell by someone who'd obviously moved his mouth 3 foot downwards ;)

down&out
A number of places, eg Guernsey, ask that a specific address is put in the address section of the Flight plan. Now in the UK I've always been told to leave the address section blank and so have assumed the filing ATSU recognises where these requests are needed and completes them
Not your problem - whoever addresses the plan should know any additional addressees and include them without any input from yourself (made easier these days by "Colective addressing")

Aim Far

a) Departure, Destination and any mandatory addressed associated airfields. En-Rte airfields don't get them and alternates only get copies if the addressing unit includes them as a separate address

b) Correct. IFR is different 30 minutes either side is acceptable, any different and it has to be changed or delayed. If an IFR plan is not activated within 30 minutes of EOBT then the IFPS computer dumps it and you have to re-file (so DLA's are important in those cases).

c) Delays require a "DLA" message issued by the same agency that filed the plan in the first place, bringing it forward often entails cancelling and then re-filing (if you don't fulfil the answer to (b) above

d) Shorter is fine, but allow at least 30 minutes to get it input into the system for Intl FIR boundary crossing or if the flight wil take place in CAS.

e) Correct. The UK has the concept of the "responsible" party included in the ANO whereby if you don't turn up someone will notify the authorities. No news is good news principle ;)

f) No, as the alternate would not expect to be notified of your arrival at the destination anyway.

[Aim Far]

Thanks Chilli Monster, that's very helpful.

[Slowsafecruise]

A VFR flight plan must be filed at least 60 minutes before clearance to start or taxi is requested. Normally the flight plan is filed at the departure airfield that will pass it on to the relevant Parent ATSU Flight Briefing Unit. If the departure airfield will not be able to file the flight plan, it should be telephoned or faxed directly to the appropriate Parent ATSU Flight Briefing Unit:

London/Heathrow

TEL: 0208 745 3111 FAX: 0208 745 3491

TEL: 0208 745 3163 FAX: 0208 745 3492

Manchester

TEL: 0161 499 5502 FAX: 0161 499 5504

TEL: 0161 499 5500

Scottish ACC

TEL: 01292 692679 FAX : 01292 671048

TEL: 01292 692663

The ATSU or FBU must be advised as soon as possible of any cancellations or delays that will exceed 30 minutes, or changes to flight plan details.
If the flight lands at a place other than the flightplan destination, the destination must be informed within 30 minutes of the planned ETA there.

The above was taken from the 2004 UK VFR Flight Guide by AFE. Just thought it would help.. :confused:

SSC

[Chilli Monster]

The above was taken from the 2004 UK VFR Flight Guide by AFE. Just thought it would help..
No - just muddying the waters somewhat.

That "60 minutes" quote is laid down because someone has decreed a time somewhere for the worst possible scenario - that of having to fax it to one of the FBU's.

However - you wander into an Ops room or into my tower where the person can tap it straight into a terminal, such as Copperchase - than that's it, hey presto, filed.

There is a difference between 'real world' and 'the book'

[BraceBrace]

When I started flying, I was trained to use a flightplan from the very first navigation flight. Not all students did this, however, to me it felt safe having a bell that would ring if "my time was up". I know plenty of pilots who aren't that keen on flightplans, but I don't understand why. IFR flightplans are a different thing, they are "actively used", VFR flightplans are "passive" documents, they are there "in case of".

It's a very good point by SSC: the purpose of a flightplan is to be able to track you down in case of doubt. 99% of the time everything's allright, a detailed flightplan seems unnecessary. But what if...

I consider a flightplan a document stating what you're going to do on this flight. You leave it behind and from the moment you open it, it's a ticking clock. You close it when reaching destination and that's it. But if you don't, it will ring a bell to some people. And THEN your flightplan becomes important, since it is THE source of information for the rescue services. Who is this guy? What was he doing? Where was he flying? Where should we go looking for him? It's a document where you, as PIC, leave all information required if someone would have to come looking for you. I consider that very important... cause I'd like them to find me as soon as possible:ok:. And yes, a mobile phone number is very usefull information, since if something happened... you'll probably be on the ground too.

[Cessna Boy]

Just reading the post with interest!
I learned to fly in UK and never logged a flight plan in reality. I did learn how to do it during my ATPL studies (and PPL if I remember correctly!), but never done it in real life!
Now live in OZ, different ball game! Flight plan for every flight. Would never dream of going outback without one, and makes life a lot easier entering into areas like Brisbane International. Always get codes assigned and clearance with no problems. If I ever come back to UK, will probably put one in for every Nav ex, just seems to make life a lot easier for all parties (only takes 5 mins to fill out).
I know its different out here, but if you can let as many people know what and when you are doing it it seems to make sense!I reckon all PPL's should be made to do them as part of the training as they are a pretty important part of the big picture!
CB

[Chilli Monster]

I know its different out here, but if you can let as many people know what and when you are doing it it seems to make sense!I reckon all PPL's should be made to do them as part of the training as they are a pretty important part of the big picture!

And indeed, if the UK had a fully integrated ATC sysyem then they would contribute to the big picture. However, we have a highly fragmented ATC system which needs to be torn up and re-drawn with a clean sheet of paper!

But don't start me on that particular hobby horse - please :uhoh:

[ATCO Two]

FFF,

Your assertion that routeing information on a VFR flightplan is ignored by ATC is misleading. The fact is that we do not usually have (or need) access to the information on the control positions as we merely write out a flight progress strip for each VFR flight as the pilot contacts us. In the event of something untoward happening, we can obtain details of the flight plan from the FBU. The detailed information on the FPL can then be used for SAR and alerting purposes.

[Slowsafecruise]

Chilli Monster

60 mins is probs a good time, it was decided by someone a while back and gives plenty of time for the 'Plan' to go through the system.. dont forget its not just yours going through, FBUs deal with VFR, and IFR and these all take time..

It is great if you can 'tap into the system' however most people cant do that so play it safe and file at least 60mins before!

SSC.

[bookworm]

b) Correct. IFR is different 30 minutes either side is acceptable, any different and it has to be changed or delayed. If an IFR plan is not activated within 30 minutes of EOBT then the IFPS computer dumps it and you have to re-file (so DLA's are important in those cases).

(Thought I posted this a couple of days ago but it didn't appear.)

Couple of points:

IFPS now requests DLA or refiling for changes in EOBT of 15 minutes or more. See the IFPS Users Manual (http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.be/userdocs/docs/handbook_ifps_9.pdf)

That said, I don't think FPLs do get dumped from the system after 15 (or even 30) mins. If there's no slot, I've always found considerable flexibility.

The ICAO limits come from PANS-RAC (now PANS-ATM), for which my oldish version says (II 8.2.1.2)

In the event of a delay of 30 mins in excess of the EOBT for a controlled flight or one hour for an uncontrolled flight for which a FPL has been submitted, the flight plan should be [delayed or refiled]

So if you pitch up on Ground 35 mins after your EOBT, ATC has the right to have thrown your strip in the bin, but generally speaking they don't.

[24Right]

And don't forget to file a FP for the return leg - I've seen pilots religiously fill in and file for their outbound journey, intending to return on the same route later in the day, but not filing for the return!

[Chilli Monster]

slowsafe
60 mins is probs a good time, it was decided by someone a while back and gives plenty of time for the 'Plan' to go through the system.. dont forget its not just yours going through, FBUs deal with VFR, and IFR and these all take time.
I refer you to my previous answer, where I'm actually agreeing that a plan submitted via an FBU should be 60 minutes. I'm just stating that it's not a hard and fast rule for every plan, but depending on how it's filed - and I speak as someone who uses the Flight Plan system from both sides of the coin and has worked in it for a considerable number of years ;)

bookworm
So if you pitch up on Ground 35 mins after your EOBT, ATC has the right to have thrown your strip in the bin, but generally speaking they don't.
Ground might not have - but IFPS and therefore the UK host will have. End result is ground goes to ATCC for clearance, to be told "sorry mate, nothing in the system". Having been on the receiving end of that one it's amazing how fast you find your typing speed can be in an emergency :D (And the time between that submission and the strip being available on the sector, and therefore a clearance being issued, was 90 seconds!)

30 minute dump is still true (not 15 as you so rightly summise) especially as the 15 minute change is a 'request' but a 30 minute change is a requirement for just that reason

[bookworm]

30 minute dump is still true

This doesn't tally with my experience CM, though of course it may just be a case of local ATC being super-helpful and sending DLAs without my intervention. So you may well be correct.

Shall we ask on ATC Issues to see if anyone knows exactly what the automated purge process is?

[Chilli Monster]

This doesn't tally with my experience CM, though of course it may just be a case of local ATC being super-helpful and sending DLAs without my intervention.

Correct. It's something we normally do without being asked if we know the aircraft is definitely going (lack of movement or lack of passengers around the aircraft being a pretty good indication), but on this one occasion it didn't happen due to being tied up with other things and was overlooked. Without that 'DLA' it will disappear.

Another thing to add to this is if you're departing from an airfield within the FIR, but will be joing CAS someway into the flight (examples - aircraft departing the Bristol area joining at Stafa or Monty; 20-30 minutes flight time away). It's often worth asking for a departure message to be sent if you're running close to the 30 minute deadline, especially in a slower piston engined aircraft as you may find that you get to the airways joining point to find the dreaded "sorry, got no details" message again

[routechecker]

Chili Monster,

I'm afraid the IFPS "30 minute dump" thingy is incorrect.
The actual time parameter for Flight Data closure in IFPS is EOBT+Total EET+180 minutes.

Cheers