View Full Version : Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives?

7th Aug 2004, 16:40
A general feedback to the flight deck restriction policy is sought after as I bring back this thread.
Over to you

7th Aug 2004, 16:57
Yes please - I'd like to be able to take my folks with me to work one day, and let them see me at work. They paid for my training, yet have no idea exactly what I do because of this silly policy. Always was silly that they restrict family. Friends etc I can understand, but I hardly think my Mum is a security threat and would do anything to affect the safety of the flight.

flying jocks
7th Aug 2004, 17:01
This goes to the heart of the matter of whether other qualified pilots with appropriate ID should be allowed to jump seat on other airlines' flights at say the captains discretion. Other countries have no problem with this provided that they have all been through security checks etc. This would facilitate mobility of pilots getting to/from their place of work and is much less hassle than going through the process of applying for an ID90 ticket.

Who would object to this?

7th Aug 2004, 21:14
I should think that the problem is that fellow passengers could be alarmed by seeing people not wearing airline uniform (possible hijackers) entering flightdeck during flight. Could these fears be allayed by an appropriate PA message?

7th Aug 2004, 21:57
Alarmed?!?!? Don't you think you're over reacting?
If they were armed to the teeth, yeah perhaps, but come on. These are grown intelligent people, not media crazed journalists.
It is about time they opened up the rule again, and put the responsibility back where it belong.
Captain's discretion!!

8th Aug 2004, 08:18
Last week I flew with a new crew member. It was her first flight for the company, and as such none of the other crew members had met her before. She was allowed in the flight deck.

A couple of weeks I have a YYZ trip and my wife is coming with me. She'll have to sit on the spare cabin crew seat as she is not allowed in the flight deck.:( :( :(

8th Aug 2004, 08:55
Ah...but your wife hasn't had a CRC check has she? Mmm.. Unless someone could be a terrorist and NOT have a criminal record. Or be a foreign crew member/pilot. But that can't happen because UK Gov plc has set this system up and it would mean it is a complete waste of time and money if that was the case , would'nt it?

8th Aug 2004, 08:58
Lots of variables here.

Is the passenger a professional pilot? Is that pilot deadheading or on holiday? How do you know hes a pilot.. was an ID presented?

Before Sept 11 it was a matter of professional courtesy for pilots to allow other pilots from other airlines to travel in the jump seat. It had social and professional benefits and was a good way for both parties to check each other out in a non interview environment. Since 9/11, I can tell you passengers WILL take notice if a passenger leaves their seat and enters the cockpit, especially if they arent wearing a uniform. Ive seen the murmur of conversation stop in the main cabin when a passenger has gotten up and headed towards the front. Making a hundred passengers nervous and sweaty in order to indulge one passenger is poor math. Gee, thanks a lot captain. I really enjoyed that adrenalin rush.

My personal preference is that Id enjoy having a fellow pilot on the jumpseat if its arranged well in advance and I have some background knowledge or information as to who this person is, but the good old days when a pilot sent his or her ID card up with the flight attendant mid flight are over. As for non airline employee passengers, I never liked having them in the cockpit either in the air or on the ground and wouldnt allow it even if the regulations did. How do I know whats going through this persons mind? So its a young woman, so what? Remember the good looking young sort who became a national hero hijacking a jet to the desert many years ago? So its a businessman. How do I know he doesnt suffer from epilepsy?

Is any pilot interested in having kids in the cockpit anymore on a quick educational visit after Aeroflot tragically dug a hole in Siberia? How about a disturbed passenger who starts plucking circuit breakers like daisies to 'see what happens'? How about a passenger whos really a journalist looking for a scoop on a slow news week? 'Shock As Airline Allows Undercover Columnist Into Unguarded Cockpit! London Minutes From Tragedy!' How about the passenger who looks as harmless as a cuddly soft toy but who slipped through multiple levels of 'impenetrable' security with a plan thought out months before?

The passengers can stay down the back. Thats what the seats there are for, and thats what they paid for. Im not planning on sitting in front of someone later the same day while they ask me 'how could you have let that passenger in the bloody cockpit after 9/11?'.

8th Aug 2004, 09:38
I'm in favour of having colleagues and family on the flight deck jump seat.
I revised my views on having unknown pax up for landing when a guy slapped me on the shoulder at 50 feet and said "Dost tha know where tha's goin', captain?"
(Before the wags get started, yes, we were in the slot :) )

8th Aug 2004, 10:40
All very true that passengers could and probably would get alarmed if someone not in uniform walked into the cockpit during flight. But what about this - I'm off on holiday to the USA in October, and will be flying on the 777. I would absolutely love to get up on the jumpseat for take-off, and possibly landing. Obviously ain't gonna happen, but if it was arranged with the Captain first, I could board the a/c before other pax. They wouldn't even have a clue that I was up there. Once established in the cruise, I could then make my way out of the cockpit and back to my seat where I'll spend the next 6 hours totally cramped. Pax would not be alarmed seeing me come out of the flight-deck after t/o.
And as far as getting back up there for landing - those sat at the front who might possibly be alarmed (lets remember the others down in economy won't have a clue where I'm going, and will be concentrating on their leg exercises to help prevent DVT), will have already seen me exit the flight-deck so shouldn't be too worried.
Add to this my ID card worn round my neck, and all should be good and happy.
And to make sure I'm not some wierdo who might start pulling circuit brakers or pushing the buttons, I'd have to present to the Captain my licence, my airline ID card, and my airside pass which would show I'd been through that 5year security check. If after all that the Captain is still unsure as to who I am, then he/she has total discretion to refuse me the jumpseat.

I remember travelling to LGW on a short hop from the Channel Islands before I started my flying training, and was allowed to sit on the jumpseat of the 146 for the trip over. Totally blew my mind away, and just made me want this job even more. Now a regular on the Dash-8 with ambitions of one day getting on the 777, a jumpseat ride would just bo totally amazing. Shame we've had the experience taken away from us.

8th Aug 2004, 11:16
So, what exactly is the official/legal policy on who is or is not allowed to travel in the jumpseat, and does the Capt. not actually have final say? Or is he not also restricted by policy?

8th Aug 2004, 12:39
I am never too bothered about having another pilot, or cabin crew on the flight deck, but would rather not have the Captain's relatives/mistress/girlfriend. If I'm ever given the option I always say that I would prefer not to have excess pax on the flight deck. It usually gets overuled by Ops or the Captain. The joys of being the co-pilot.

8th Aug 2004, 13:30
As long as articles like "Terror in the Skies" continue to be written logic will not control decision about access to cockpits. Parts 1,2,3,4....???? (http://womenswallstreet.com/WWS/)

8th Aug 2004, 16:40
No, this is not the time to reconsider flight deck access.

Miss Management
8th Aug 2004, 16:53
This thread is called:

"Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives?"

Most of the posts above straight away seem to be relating to people wanting to swamp the jumpseat, just like before.

If we are talking RELATIVES ONLY, wife, sister, brother, mother, father, son, daughter then it should be allowed by now. No relative is going to kill you at work, they will do it at home quietly.

Yes I am a captain and yes, I would allow it.

The rule to keep relatives out is idiotic.

8th Aug 2004, 17:50
I agree with Miss Management, but my query was not because I want a trip in the jumpseat, I'm just as happy in-back as sitting up front!

Not being a pilot though, my curiosity was merely to do with what the actual official line on this question is. Post-911 there seemed to be a whole raft of new regulations introduced governing cockpit/jumpseat access, with the main one apparently being an FAA ruling that the only non-pilot type personnel allowed to travel in the jumpseat were currently licensed flight engineers and ATCO's! Haven't been able to either confirm or debunk this, and was wondering if anyone could enlighten me, please.

As regards family in the jumpseat, I should think that if your relationship with a relative was so bad that they could be considered a liability, then you really shouldn't be bringing them to work in the first place!!

Ranger One
8th Aug 2004, 18:20

I revised my views on having unknown pax up for landing when a guy slapped me on the shoulder at 50 feet and said "Dost tha know where tha's goin', captain?"

Hmmmm. That would make me revise my views also!

However... let us peer back through the mists of time, to a much younger Ranger One, part-way through his PPL, having talked his way (hypothetically) onto the flight deck of a Loganair... EGPF - EGPO IIRC. Over the Minch, the (hypothetical) conversation might have gone something like this:

Capt: Lovely day isn't it?
FO: Yes.
Capt: You can see Stornoway... it's going to rain.
FO: Yes.
FO: So, what do you fancy for the 4.30 at Aintree?
Capt: Dunno.
Me: Got that traffic at 12 o'clock?
<two professional aviators sitting upright and scanning rapidly>
Both: What? Where?
Me: 12 o'clock low, reciprocal heading

Turns out it was no problem, was the air ambulance outbound from EGPO, at the (correct) assigned level - but Stornoway hadn't had the courtesy to let us know (crew were well pissed with that)... and I was the only one scanning enough to SEE the damned thing, never mind spot the constant bearing.

Changed days... I'd get shot, they'd get shot, and thank the Goddess for TCAS!


8th Aug 2004, 18:40
"No this is not the time to reconsider flight deck access".

What part of my reply did you not understand? I answered the question in a very honest fashion as someone who flies aeroplanes every day.

This is NOT repeat NOT the right time to reconsider flight deck access for your Aunt Agatha, Claudia Schiffer (a distant niece?), Osama Bin Laden, Tony Blair, George Bush or anyone else.

Access to the flightdeck should remain as tight as a badger's ar*e for a very, very long time to come.

Devils Advocate
8th Aug 2004, 19:34
JW411 – could you please elucidate your reasoning as to why, say, my son, daughter, wife, mother, father would be a threat to the safety of the aircraft should they happen to be sitting on flight-deck jump seat ?!

Remembering that my mother and father created me, bore me, cared for me, nursed me, wiped my arse and cleared up my puke, and similarly my wife and I have done the same for our children and as such there's very little that we don't know about one another.
Indeed I know more about them than I do the person sitting in the flight-deck seat opposite me, or the cabin crew who regularly enter the flight-deck ( which, ironically, requires that we open the FD door to grant them access / egress – duh ! )

Jeez, for all I know they ( my fellow crew members ) are al-Qaeda or Real IRA or Basque ‘freedom fighters’ working undercover / as a sleeper ! … and wherein, almost laughably, Disclosure Scotland (DS) would know stuff-all about their political or religious leanings - just as they don’t / can't investigate any prior ‘overseas’ activities that any of us might have been involved with, i.e. DS only applies to and checks upon prior dodgy 'activities' commited in the UK – wherein, as such, DS are a f'kin joke, i.e. all of the 911 team would have passed DS ! :E.

Tell you what, if I got my kith and kin checked-out by Disclosure Scotland, would you be happy then to let them occupy the JS - and if not, why not ?

Looking forward to understanding your logic on this; over to you......

8th Aug 2004, 19:40
in regard to the issue of what passangers may think if they see somebody entering the cockpit.

That concern could be, maybe, eased by making the captain public announcement of the person's name.

" this is the captain speaking, would Mr/Ms XXXX please make him/herself "known" (sorry if it is not the correct verb, english is not my mother tongue) to the cabin crew?"

I think that might help to ease passengers concerns.

I say it because as ATC I have tried a couple of times ....and of course no luck whatsoever....


Red 69
8th Aug 2004, 23:13
I agree with Devils Advocate. My young daughter would love to see what I do at work but these idiotic rules won't allow her to. I am expected though to allow access to cabin crew I don't know and who could have any type of background, so far unknown. As you say, Disclosure won't bring up their foreign activities and there are a lot of foreign cabin crew joining who haven't been in this country 5 minutes. (And no, I'm not a racist just a realist)

As for JW411, I can't imagine anyone wanting to be up there with him anyway with an attitude like that!

So yes, I think immediate relatives of the Capt/FO should be allowed to travel on the jumpseat. I worked hard to get where I am with the support of my family. Why shouldn't they be able to get some pleasure back by being able to witness the fruits of their support?

White Knight
9th Aug 2004, 07:13
Should never have been disallowed, all a bl00dy great over reaction!!!
We've seen many times how good a background "security" check has been:mad: :mad:on some airline staff.
JW411, I answer this question also as someone who flies aeroplanes every day!!!

On a similar topic, when's the metal cutlery coming back? (at least to the UK and Aussie routes) Metal knives and forks very much the order of the day for most of our (EK) destinations. I really don't see the logic of crappy plastics when you can go through security to the duty free and pick up a GLASS bottle of flammable liquid:confused: :confused: :confused:

9th Aug 2004, 08:05
I couldn't even get my Dad in our company sim.


I'd vote for access for immediate family.

Miles Hi
9th Aug 2004, 09:06
Ah, I remember the halcyon days well....A B747 on a short haul trip, 3 x crew, plus 5 staff/family in the cockpit sitting/standing whereever they could find room. Captain used his discretion wisely, cockpit door was locked, he know everyone either personally or as a family member of a staff member.

Is it asking too much to try to get back to those common sense days?

And ask for cutlery, don't get me started. Try going thru AMS - full security and metal checks, then adjacent to some of the gates, a full restaurant with steak knives etc. So it's not ok to bring them with you, but ok to get them from the airport.

The mind boggles.

9th Aug 2004, 10:20
Disclosure Scotland is a total joke, and who ever the artist is who set it up must be rubbing his hands toghether and booking a flight to Norther Cyprus where ther is no extradition treaty.

I am GLA based. My DS details got lost or delayed, and on Aug 2nd when I turned up for work and tried to get airside I was refused. About 20 minutes of referring to supervisors, bosses of supervisors and mangers took place before I was allowed airside on production of my licence. The following day I had to report at EDI, where my BAA pass is not logged into the EDI data base. A quick glance by yer man on the Staff Search gate, and "Have a nice day, Sir." (He didn't say that, but I assume that's the rough translation from Jockanese). Laughable to my mind. And that is why I would prefer to have no one on the flight deck, other than essential crew.

If you were a surgeon would you want your wife/son/daughter/mistress/mate/husband in the operating theatre? I appreciate there is not the security issue in this case, but from a professional point of view, really, do you want them there, on your shoulder whilst you are trying to do a day's work? I don't want my family there, and I definitely don't want yours.

Miles Hi
9th Aug 2004, 10:27
"If you were a surgeon would you want your wife/son/daughter/mistress/mate/husband in the operating theatre? "

Bit of a difference between a cockpit and a sterile environment designed for the health and well being of sick patients.

I would love to hear your opinion if you required a J/S for either yourself or a family member and a colleague had the same attitude as you. It's very easy to tell J/S Pax to sit down, shut up, and only speak when spoken to. Have done it, and have had it done to me.

9th Aug 2004, 11:00

If you were a surgeon would you want your wife/son/daughter/mistress/mate/husband in the operating theatre?

Errr....actually I have been a guest in an operating theatre.

And yes I would like to have my brother, sister or wife on the flight deck occasionally. They would be welcome as I would make any relative of yours welcome, despite your unpleasant and blinkered attitude.

9th Aug 2004, 11:51
I would be more than happy to have one of my colleagues immediate relatives on the jump-seat, as I hope they would be to have one of mine. At the moment all my sectors are about 30mins flying time, so no chance to sit and tell them what we're doing, but great for them to watch just how busy we are.
Understandable that on a long flight, it could be a bit of a pain having someone sat in with you for a couple of hours - in that case just have them there for t/o and ldg.
There is nothing better that watching a young child's face when they come and have a look at the flight deck (on the ground of course) - I remember the good old days of being allowed up mid-flight. Totally awe-inspiring, and the kind of thing where ambitions and dreams are born.

Obviously can never get back to the way it used to be, but my folks are not going to do anything other than sit in the JS, watch me at work, and be totally proud at seeing what I have achieved.

9th Aug 2004, 12:12
I should think that the problem is that fellow passengers could be alarmed by seeing people not wearing airline uniform (possible hijackers) entering flightdeck during flight. Could these fears be allayed by an appropriate PA message?

Speaking as a regular PAX and PPL holder I am more alarmed by the amount of times I watch the CC go into the flight deck on the short trips I normally take. Over the space of an hour on one flight I recall the cockpit door was rarely shut with a CC normally perched in the doorway, chatting to the pilots. I was concerned about the distractions being caused to the Flight Crew as well as the waste of a good security door.

I had a number of great jumpseat rides before 9/11 and now realise that those days are long gone (or at least for a few years yet anyway).

I personally wouldn't be worried about a 'pax' lookalike entering a flight deck, as long as the person entered the FD in a controlled manner.....

IMHO anyway....

9th Aug 2004, 12:18
Take heart and hope my friends, the "good old days" are far from gone.

I am not a professional pilot, though I do work in the aviation industry.

Since September 11th 2001, I have done more jumpseating than ever before.

I have travelled FOC on the jumpseat of an Airbus 300, a Boeing 767, a 737, a Dash8, a Gulfstream IV. In the cargo hold of an F27 and a Let 410. And no, not in Africa! In the UK, Europe, and Australasia.

In at least two instances, I have been completely unkown to the crew and have done so without having to even show ID, though they were advised in advance to some degree.

Only last month I made an in-flight cockpit visit on an A330.

The things that make aviation fun are not gone. Just a little more restrictive.

The aviation world does not begin an end at British Airways. Different companies, and different countries have different regulations.

What it comes down to is a healthy dose of common sense.

Bottom line is, if someone wants to interfere with a flight, they will be able to do so, until the day everyone is marched onboard under gunpoint and strapped into their seats.

Old Man Rotor
9th Aug 2004, 13:29
Just like a Policeman takes his/her partner to a gruesome homicide, or a Surgeon takes his partner to your testicular cancer operation, or the Judge has a party on the bench whilst listening to why you screwed up the approach whilst distracted.

Get real folk, your there for one reason only, do it and do it well.

The owners set these types of policy, not pilots.

9th Aug 2004, 13:43
Have a look at airliners.net, there are still plenty of shots made from the jumpseat during a flight, t/o and landing. It's just a companies policy whether people (relatives) are allowed or not.

Miles Hi
9th Aug 2004, 13:45

Again, not a valid argument. No-one argues that airlines own the aircraft. However, it is within the right of every Captain in certain airlines to take qualified people in the jumpseat if he so desires.

We are not talking about joe public sitting down the back - we are talking about maybe your brother, your father, your mother, your sister - qualified staff passengers, who not doubt will have been approved well in advance of their flight, and who should be briefed on the what to do and what not to do while in the jumpseat.

This is a staff facility that I have been lucky enough to use for the last 15 years. My sister (a legal secretary) has twenty something transatlantic flights in the cockpit, thanks to very generous Captains who are not as closed-minded as others.

No-one has a God given right to a jumpseat, but we should all be grateful to the kind individuals who do accept staff and family in the cockpit.

Old King Coal
9th Aug 2004, 13:46
Old Man Rotor - your clear and lucid thought reminds me now of why I don't fly 'copters ( as per your profile: BK117, S76, B212, 412, AS350, B206, H300 and R22 ).

To my knowledge, very few of your aeronautical chariots even have a flight-deck door - so, perhaps best stick to what you know, eh ? ;)

Miss Management
9th Aug 2004, 16:52
Old Man Rotor and more in particular JW411,

What a load of [email protected]. If 9/11 hasn't happened when it did, would you have EVER thought of EVER banning a family member from the flight deck EVER????
Now that it has, you just conform to blind and idiotic policies that are designed by as valid a people as any of my relatives!!! How's about yours then. Are you afraid from your own families????

9th Aug 2004, 17:19
An interesting thread....during the height of the troubles (IRA) I happened to be travelling to Frankfurt from Heathrow with BA proudly in the possession of a PPL and the wrong passport. I however duly requested the jump seat and the friendly hostess returned and said the captain would be delighted. Having spoken only when spoken to he was a thourough gentleman and we actually kept in touch afterwards. I have travelled in the jump seat post Sept 11. I happen to be one of those who didn't make it into the ranks of those who spend their career in the pointy end of an airliner. I can say however that having passed 1,000 hours of private flying I've learnt so much sitting quietly in a jump seat. Yes I agree that you would want to know something about the background of the person sitting behind you, but is that person in the jumpseat (if bona fide) not another barrier to a potential terrorist trying to gain access, especially in smaller cockpits!

White Knight
9th Aug 2004, 18:12
AF1 - for your info HM govt set the jumpseat rules, not BA or any other British airline. The fact that they're kowtowing to the yanks is a different matter :yuk:

Firestorm old bean, I've always enjoyed having visitors and jump seat riders, you speak for yourself but I have in the past helped many crew get urgently from A to B :ok:

9th Aug 2004, 18:58
r we sure that jump seat rides aren't back in the states ? I think they might be already with certain airlines, as for disclosure Scotland - I,ve said it before and I'll say it again, a load of crap, just to create yet more jobs in the public sector - make Tony look good.
Just out of interest here at Manchester the pass office have lost all records of who handed in a disclosure form to get our new super dooper 'swipe passes' and are now going around company's asking them to provide evidence that they were originally checked !!! last year they couldn't issue a swipe card without a DS form !

:mad: :mad: :mad:

10th Aug 2004, 06:51
With the very greatest of respect, does anyone remember the concept of the sterile cockpit and why it was introduced?

No friends, absolutely no family. No cabin crew at critical times either. They are distractions from the job on hand.

I hope never to have to hear the transcript from the CVR after some pilot is so busy showing has Dad why he should be so proud of him that he crashes

If your ego is so fragile that you MUST show your parents/siblings/girlfriend/spouse/kids where you work, then maybe you should be in a different job.

Capt H Peacock
10th Aug 2004, 07:18
How is it safer to have my loved one in the cabin at the mercy of a soldier of the faithful with a knife to her throat, rather than seated behind me where she cannot be a bargaining chip?

10th Aug 2004, 08:05
In every profession you find the good, bad and indifferent.
My enthusiasm for aviation probably stemmed from hours on the jump seat with my old man in the front and he never declined flight deck visits unless there were technical hitches.
My impression is that the type of pilot who is anti the jump seat being occupied, is the one who lacks self confidence and needs to hind behind that locked door. Like I said, good bad and indifferent.

Sunfish; Sterile cockpit - no friends nor family! Please tell me what % of all aircraft in the air at any one time have closed cockpit doors - please remember all the commuter a/c and light a/c flying around where pilots are in close contact with everyone else in the plane. Get a Life - please

10th Aug 2004, 09:03
Captain H: if that's your worry, then maybe you should both take separate flights...

White Knight: I am not so worried about crew (cabin or flight deck) jump seating, but would rather not have relatives, and definitely not random passengers who are victims of an overbooked flight. As an FO, I have FA say in the matter, despite being asked with the old "Are you happy with that?" to which I reply "No" and am always overuled, due to the fantastic CRM ethic in the company that I work in.

The flight deck is my working space, it isn't very big, and I do feel self conscious with anybody sat on my shoulder. I would prefer that they weren't there. At least another crew person will have the deceny to keep quiet whilst I am working. This is quite a different reason than a security issue, I grant you.

Also, the policy has been decreed and decided in my company, that no one other than positioning crew are allowed on the jump seat, and that the door must be locked. Unless Flight Ops Director says it's OK. Which seems to allow anybody not covered by the above to travel on the jump seat. If the FOD or Captain says it's happening, then that's final. As I say, as an FO iget FA say in the matter, other than the formality of being asked and ignored.

10th Aug 2004, 09:50
A lot of claptrap and a lot of common sense in this thread in my opinion. Having someone in the j/s is not a big deal. The only reason that the restrictions were introduced was to appease the public and more importantly, to enable each Transport Minister in each country to be able to stand up in his Parliament and assure the country that they were doing everything in their power and that their airlines were SAFE.

We all know what a lot of Cr*p that is but it was a political decision and had nothing to do with security.

There IS a perceived problem by the public in seeing flight deck doors being opened and closed to often expecially on short sectors but that's easily sorted out.

I for one have always welcomed our own staff, relatives, staff of other airlines and sometimes their relatives. Other Captains have aalways had a different view and would accept nobody. That is their prerogative.

It is a very simple matter to inform any j/s guest as to the rules of behaviour and I've never had one who didn't follow those rules.

Count me in among those who agree the rules should be relaxed. Just don't expect our stupid self-serving politicians from all countries to agree.

After all, if they didn't have this as a crutch they might have to do something that would actually enhance security!! Meantime my wife and yours are regarded as potential terrorists while a staff member whom I've never seen before, is not.

Such is life ! The lunatics have really taken over the asylum.

flaps to 60
10th Aug 2004, 09:52
Is there not a good argument that having someone in the jump seat will at least delay the path of a terrorist to the flight crew.

The USA had a locked door policy long before 9/11 and yet they still made it into the flight deck.

I have had the pleasure in the past of many jump seat rides and loved every one so why should this be denied to everybody else who can pass a simple check.

Now im in the flight deck i would personally have no problem with it for the reasons above providing at least you know the person some checks completed or ID pass has been shown.

When i've dead headed back in the jump seat the skipper always mentioned that an off duty crew meber was sitting in the cockpit.

As a slight aside how many two crew aircraft have had to land due to a member of the crew falling ill or worse with a qualified comercial pilot down the back who has not been encouraged to show thier pass on boarding. At the very least they can keep an eye on the rest of the SLF and be useful in that respect.

Interesting post!

Boeing Freak
10th Aug 2004, 11:35
How about this senario...

My wife is no longer allowed to travel in the flight deck to accompany me on those lovely long trips. So I buy her a ticket on my flight. She used to work for my company as crew so often ends up chatting in the forward galley. When I come out of the cave for a pee she is there so we end up chatting. It would not be that difficult for a terrorist to work out who she is. Sometimes I even go to the checkin desk with her anyway, so either way they know she is my wife.

So the hijack becomes very simple - bring her to the door with a knife at her throat and I WILL let them in - no doubt.

However, if she was safely locked away in the flight deck.....

Miles Hi
10th Aug 2004, 11:41
Some common sense at last. The bottom line is that (UK and USA excepted), it would appear to be common practice to allow staff and qualified family members use the jumpseat. Note staff and qualified family - not terrorists, not bombers.

If the Captain is happy to take someone, whats the problem? If he's not, well, thats sad, but it's the way it is.

I will be forever grateful to the various BA/SAA/QF and DLH Captains who looked after me in previous years, and I look forward to repaying the favour whenever I can.

It's not a hardship or an inconvenience to have someone sitting behind you - anyone who says it is has a serious chip underneath the epaulettes on both shoulders.

Old Man Rotor
10th Aug 2004, 13:23
Argue the point not the man....

My Operations Manual or the Procedures Manual tells me what I can and can’t do.
Other than the actual Piloting Skills, most procedures / regulations are made off the aircraft by non Technical Crew, and subjected to various levels of review and I suspect a Safety Analysis Case Study undertaken by the risk assessment folk.

If you want to take your Mum or Dad or local Concubine on your Bi Annual Simulator Check, where any slip may change your career path, then feel free to do so......but leave them out of the aircraft that my company has paid hard money, to send our crews from place to place.

And yes in our industry and my company, we do have Jumpseats and Cockpit Doors, but you’re forgiven for this oversight.

11th Aug 2004, 09:52
BOGOF: I have read the thread that you've quoted, and very good it is too. It's one thing dealing with individuals, but quite another dealing with a company ethic that supports the captain even when he is clearly wrong in favour of the co-pilot when he is clearly correct. Enough said in this thread.

12th Aug 2004, 17:52
hmmm. wandering off the subject a little perhaps?

can anyone say what the policy of US carriers is now? I know that jump seating was stopped in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 but have heard that some carriers DO now allow relatives.

12th Aug 2004, 22:50
Old Man Rotor

I DO have fellow collegues looking when I perform in the OR. Yes, also students, and relatives sometimes from the patients. (not my wive who starts to vomit seeing eye surgery). Nothing to hide, they take a seat and stay at that seat so they don't disturb OPS.

They speak when spoken to, or ask politely and don't expect an answer if I'm not able, I enjoy telling what I do, ( and this way also keeping the nurses awake)

One of the reasons going on and wanting to have an ATP, and spending lots of $$$ in the U.S. economy was a jumpseat offered to me on a 73 by a captain (after showing my, license, PPL at that time) who really enjoyed his work and was able to let the FO fly the plane, while having the great overview.
It was one of my life events, seeing this big bird land AMS

Travelling with my wife and kid (1 at that time) he knew I was no risk at all.

This great pilot also had time to have some conversation with some other pax in the cabin and really made everyone feel at ease. (this was post 9/11)

But maybe I'm at my young age already oldfashioned and should we all persue aircraft without pilots, and lock up all pilots in front untill that 'happy' time........ :ooh:

The Dez
13th Aug 2004, 06:48
I fly a freighter that from time to time carries live horses. A groomer must accompany the animals on these trips. However the groomer is allowed to ride on the flightdeck. Now to say my wife or parents are more of a security threat than a guy with a 4 inch needle and bag full of horse tranqullizers that I've never met before seems to me to be a little ass backwards. Furthermore we allow any employee jumpseat privelages as well. FYI all this is approved in our company and flight ops manual. Whats even more laughable is that Transport forced us to put the reinforced doors and peep hole on the flight deck door of the freighter. Like some terrorist is going to stuff himself in a box, buried in a can in P12 and cut his way through 11 other cans and the bulkhead to get to the flightdeck door! What a joke.

13th Aug 2004, 12:30
I am a GA pilot trying to make it in aviation.
Before Sept 11, I always tried for the jump-seat.

I would approach the captain before filights and inroduce myself.
Most of the time I flew on an airine that I had friend pilots
and would mention there names.

Most of the time, the Captain would give me the opportunity.
I am a more mature person close to 1/2 century mark and it was a great rush since I know of making it now in aviation is non existant.

I understand the security aspects now. But really if somebody wanted to hijack an aircraft now, I think the other passengers
would not be sitting down doing nothing anymore.

Those lights gave me the desire to continue flying and trying.

Myself I hope they would let people back in

My 2 toughts.

A and C
14th Aug 2004, 13:44
You all seem to have fogotten that these stupid rules that we have had imposed on us are not for the protection of the passengers or the public on the ground , these rules are writen to protect the politcians from the media !.

15th Aug 2004, 12:18
Good point A & C. The govts have been "seen to be doing something". Given the current restrictions on opening the flt deck door, I would like to see the forward toilet on my aircraft for crew use only. This has been seen to work on long flights on a different contract that I have flown and evrything worked fine. Forward of row one on my ac should be a no go area for pax. This would make it easier and safer for us when the door has to be opened. This would IMO enhance safety much more than preventing my Mother from flying on a jump seat. Next, plastic cutlery: I managed to cut my finger quite deeply whilst opening the nasty plastic covering of the cutlery pack; the plastic knife serrations were very sharp, much sharper I contend, than a standard metal cutlery knife. I will ask you to use your imagination rather than post here how to do damage to someone with such a plastic knife - for obvious reasons.

I would have no problem if my colleague brought a relative along on the flight deck. It would relieve the tedium of being locked in to my small cage for hours on end with just one other for company.

Fester T Adams
21st Aug 2004, 19:19
In answer to the question posed by the thread starter it appears not.

It appears a relative of someone working in FR administration I think, "sneaked' into a FR flight deck just before take off (presumably with the knowledge of the pilots), was discovered during last minute security checks. He was asked to leave the aircraft & his bags were off loaded. Since this 'contravened FR's security policy who will only allow staff to fly on this seat the eh 'you know what' has hit the fan big time now the media have got hold of the story. Whoever wrote it has obviously never seen the inside of a cockpit in their entire life judging by the dross that was written.

21st Aug 2004, 20:21
Think yourselves lucky. As a qualified technician for my employer (major US "express" freight carrier), based in the UK ,who can sign the airworthiness release and the search form should the nosegear door security seal be damaged/missing, i can no longer ride in the aircraft (not even the galley jumpseats outside the cockpit with the fortified security door!) If the airplane leaves my station on a trip to a destination with no mx cover, i have to fly commercial and meet it there. Gone are the days of going down on the gen-dec as a mx rep. Does the company not release how hard it is to commercial around the world with a tool box these days AND turn up at an airport you've never been to and try and get an airside pass?? Still, grooms/handlers/couriers who have no association with the company whatsoever can get on just fine. Technicians from other carriers are pi**ing themsleves laughing at myself and my colleagues, and lets be honest, who can blame them???

Bitch over

Ranger 1
21st Aug 2004, 21:43
I have had a few jump seat flights prior to 911 here in the UK, but not as much as a sniff of one since,good luck to those who can still do it, I hope it inspires you as much as it did my years ago.
I know how a lot of you feel about this as I have a similar problem, I work as an airside safety Officer, I am not allowed to bring any member of my family airside to sit in with me during my shift now, to get a feel for what I have done for the past 20+ years, in fact, I have even been stopped myself & refused access outside my working hours on several occaisions, when carrying out additional, legitimate work related tasks :confused:
Sometimes I wonder where these :mad: rules come from.

22nd Aug 2004, 07:09
I watched my son being born, grow up, and fly around with me on the jump seat.

Now he is treated as a potential terrorist.

It is just too stupid for words.


22nd Aug 2004, 14:18
This has nothing to do with ego.

From comments made, it sounds as though those pilots who are against allowing family into the flightdeck are those who have a confidence issue.
It's interesting that JW411 hasn't made any attempt to back up his thoughts on why family should not be allowed to sit on the jumpseat.

It is not your average office job and any family member would be fascinated to see what their husband/wife/son/father/etc does for a living.

It was several jumpseat rides when I was a lad that inspired me to become a commercial pilot.

Surely if the family member in question boarded the a/c when the crew did and sat on the jumpseat before pax boarded, was only let out in flight if they needed to use the lav and when let out the FD door was sheided by a curtain, the pax would not even have to know.

What a farce. :*

22nd Aug 2004, 14:37

The question at the beginning of this thread was:

"Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives".

I gave a very honest answer that in my opinion now is NOT the the time. I really think it is quite naive to imagine that the powers that be are likely to change their minds for a very long time yet regardless of what you or I might think.

I do not recall giving any opinion either way on this thread as to whether it is or is not desirable to have family members on the flight deck. That simply was not the question asked.

22nd Aug 2004, 14:52

I have to agree with you that no, it is not likely that the powers that be will reconsider for some time.

However, the question asks SHOULD this be reconsidered by the powers that be.

Due to the desire of having family members on the FD and the stupidity behind the ruling, my and many other's answers is... yes.

Regards, Tri

22nd Aug 2004, 15:13

First of all, I doubt I have a confidence problem. I have been at this game for 46 years now and I am still going strong.

My wives (both of them) and all of my children have been on the flight deck with me over the years as have many of my friends but that was before Bin Liner's men did the unthinkable and knocked down the twin towers with real aeroplanes.

Regardless of what our opinions as professional aviators might be, can you think of just one politician or security chief who would have the balls to suggest a relaxation to flight deck access in the present climate?

Sadly, a hell of a lot of dust is going to have to settle before that is likely to happen and there is not a damned thing that you or I can do about it I'm afraid.

A and C
23rd Aug 2004, 08:13
What advantage is it to the politicans to have you'r relatives on the jumpseat ?.

The answer is that there is no political mileage in it for them so to avoid any chance of being seen to be "soft " on terrorists why should they change anything ?, remember these people are only in goverment personal advancment.

The only thing that will change there minds in the forseeable future is if ( and I hope this never happens ) a relatve of a flight crew member is taken hostage and the flight deck door is opened.

The bottom line is that untill it is to the advantage of the politicans nothing will change , common sence has nothing to do with the presant goverment attitude to security.

Celtic Dragon
24th Aug 2004, 02:29
The key to this issue is simple.

Visits to the sharp end by (any) non-duty persons should be done on a prior approval basis only, no exceptions (other than an emergency). This implies that approval has been given in advance by a member of (ground) staff qualified to evaluate the situation/visitor. This provides a level of protection to the crew ("sorry sir, but approval must be sought at least x days prior to the flight").

The value of Familiarisation Flights for ATC's is priceless, it is such a pity we can no longer get our new young ATC's up front to see what role they play in the big picture, and how their method affects the guys (and girls) up front.


24th Aug 2004, 08:55
The value of Familiarisation Flights for ATC's is priceless, it is such a pity we can no longer get our new young ATC's up front to see what role they play in the big picture, and how their method affects the guys (and girls) up front.

You can.

27th Aug 2004, 12:02
This year, because the Disclosure Scotland is taking so Long to issue the certificates (these are nonsense, but that's another story) our lot have just been writing tickets and boarding cards to all crew, flight deck and CC, who do not have their passes yet; the crew member merely writes out a ticket and grabs a boarding card in the crew room. Absolute nonsense, the whole thing.

As a Captain I consider the faith that the company puts in me to manage a situation, whether it's a late loadsheet or a hijack, could and should encompass whether or not I, and indeed my First Officer, are happy to allow someone to jumpseat on the flight deck. After all, I am considered fit to fly 200 people around in all other aspects!

It is insulting to me and all my collegues not to be allowed to use our judgement and I would urge EVERYONE to follow my example and, until this narrow minded policy is changed,


on the flight deck jump seats. This is my own protest and it may be having a positive effect. The DfT Officials have been sent off to write their reports as to just why they have been refused.

27th Aug 2004, 15:26
:O Sorry to say butmuch as I adore my family, the cockpit is no place for them to be. I am totally human and have weaknesses as I am sure we all do. In the event of an emergency situation where would my priorities lay I ask myself, would I be looking after my pax and Crew or would I be thinking about my family??

I could go on about this but feel I have stated my case. Personally I dont think that anyone other than Crew should be in the cockpit.

A and C
29th Aug 2004, 06:50
In an emergency I would be thinking about saving myself , the bottom line is that I don't want to die !.

If I get it right then all the other occupants of the aircraft just follow me.

I can see of no emergency situation that would be effected by my relitives on the flight deck , a terrorists gun in my wife's back MIGHT be a different matter.

29th Aug 2004, 11:06
You've not seen my wife........ They'd run a mile.

Only joking, love!

29th Aug 2004, 14:35
I have spent alot of my childhood on the jumpseat and that is one of the reasons that I have chosen to choose flying as my career ( now I spend too much time in the F/D but that is a different matter!).

Everyone I have asked at work has said that they would be quite happy to allow jump seat rides. All seems to have been blown out of all proportion to me.

As for the plastic cutlery thing dont even get me started!!!!!

Now where did I put that fire axe?????????