Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives?
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Yes please - I'd like to be able to take my folks with me to work one day, and let them see me at work. They paid for my training, yet have no idea exactly what I do because of this silly policy. Always was silly that they restrict family. Friends etc I can understand, but I hardly think my Mum is a security threat and would do anything to affect the safety of the flight.
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This goes to the heart of the matter of whether other qualified pilots with appropriate ID should be allowed to jump seat on other airlines' flights at say the captains discretion. Other countries have no problem with this provided that they have all been through security checks etc. This would facilitate mobility of pilots getting to/from their place of work and is much less hassle than going through the process of applying for an ID90 ticket.
Who would object to this?
Who would object to this?
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I should think that the problem is that fellow passengers could be alarmed by seeing people not wearing airline uniform (possible hijackers) entering flightdeck during flight. Could these fears be allayed by an appropriate PA message?
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Alarmed?!?!? Don't you think you're over reacting?
If they were armed to the teeth, yeah perhaps, but come on. These are grown intelligent people, not media crazed journalists.
It is about time they opened up the rule again, and put the responsibility back where it belong.
Captain's discretion!!
If they were armed to the teeth, yeah perhaps, but come on. These are grown intelligent people, not media crazed journalists.
It is about time they opened up the rule again, and put the responsibility back where it belong.
Captain's discretion!!
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Last week I flew with a new crew member. It was her first flight for the company, and as such none of the other crew members had met her before. She was allowed in the flight deck.
A couple of weeks I have a YYZ trip and my wife is coming with me. She'll have to sit on the spare cabin crew seat as she is not allowed in the flight deck.
A couple of weeks I have a YYZ trip and my wife is coming with me. She'll have to sit on the spare cabin crew seat as she is not allowed in the flight deck.
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Ah...but your wife hasn't had a CRC check has she? Mmm.. Unless someone could be a terrorist and NOT have a criminal record. Or be a foreign crew member/pilot. But that can't happen because UK Gov plc has set this system up and it would mean it is a complete waste of time and money if that was the case , would'nt it?
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Lots of variables here.
Is the passenger a professional pilot? Is that pilot deadheading or on holiday? How do you know hes a pilot.. was an ID presented?
Before Sept 11 it was a matter of professional courtesy for pilots to allow other pilots from other airlines to travel in the jump seat. It had social and professional benefits and was a good way for both parties to check each other out in a non interview environment. Since 9/11, I can tell you passengers WILL take notice if a passenger leaves their seat and enters the cockpit, especially if they arent wearing a uniform. Ive seen the murmur of conversation stop in the main cabin when a passenger has gotten up and headed towards the front. Making a hundred passengers nervous and sweaty in order to indulge one passenger is poor math. Gee, thanks a lot captain. I really enjoyed that adrenalin rush.
My personal preference is that Id enjoy having a fellow pilot on the jumpseat if its arranged well in advance and I have some background knowledge or information as to who this person is, but the good old days when a pilot sent his or her ID card up with the flight attendant mid flight are over. As for non airline employee passengers, I never liked having them in the cockpit either in the air or on the ground and wouldnt allow it even if the regulations did. How do I know whats going through this persons mind? So its a young woman, so what? Remember the good looking young sort who became a national hero hijacking a jet to the desert many years ago? So its a businessman. How do I know he doesnt suffer from epilepsy?
Is any pilot interested in having kids in the cockpit anymore on a quick educational visit after Aeroflot tragically dug a hole in Siberia? How about a disturbed passenger who starts plucking circuit breakers like daisies to 'see what happens'? How about a passenger whos really a journalist looking for a scoop on a slow news week? 'Shock As Airline Allows Undercover Columnist Into Unguarded Cockpit! London Minutes From Tragedy!' How about the passenger who looks as harmless as a cuddly soft toy but who slipped through multiple levels of 'impenetrable' security with a plan thought out months before?
The passengers can stay down the back. Thats what the seats there are for, and thats what they paid for. Im not planning on sitting in front of someone later the same day while they ask me 'how could you have let that passenger in the bloody cockpit after 9/11?'.
Is the passenger a professional pilot? Is that pilot deadheading or on holiday? How do you know hes a pilot.. was an ID presented?
Before Sept 11 it was a matter of professional courtesy for pilots to allow other pilots from other airlines to travel in the jump seat. It had social and professional benefits and was a good way for both parties to check each other out in a non interview environment. Since 9/11, I can tell you passengers WILL take notice if a passenger leaves their seat and enters the cockpit, especially if they arent wearing a uniform. Ive seen the murmur of conversation stop in the main cabin when a passenger has gotten up and headed towards the front. Making a hundred passengers nervous and sweaty in order to indulge one passenger is poor math. Gee, thanks a lot captain. I really enjoyed that adrenalin rush.
My personal preference is that Id enjoy having a fellow pilot on the jumpseat if its arranged well in advance and I have some background knowledge or information as to who this person is, but the good old days when a pilot sent his or her ID card up with the flight attendant mid flight are over. As for non airline employee passengers, I never liked having them in the cockpit either in the air or on the ground and wouldnt allow it even if the regulations did. How do I know whats going through this persons mind? So its a young woman, so what? Remember the good looking young sort who became a national hero hijacking a jet to the desert many years ago? So its a businessman. How do I know he doesnt suffer from epilepsy?
Is any pilot interested in having kids in the cockpit anymore on a quick educational visit after Aeroflot tragically dug a hole in Siberia? How about a disturbed passenger who starts plucking circuit breakers like daisies to 'see what happens'? How about a passenger whos really a journalist looking for a scoop on a slow news week? 'Shock As Airline Allows Undercover Columnist Into Unguarded Cockpit! London Minutes From Tragedy!' How about the passenger who looks as harmless as a cuddly soft toy but who slipped through multiple levels of 'impenetrable' security with a plan thought out months before?
The passengers can stay down the back. Thats what the seats there are for, and thats what they paid for. Im not planning on sitting in front of someone later the same day while they ask me 'how could you have let that passenger in the bloody cockpit after 9/11?'.
I'm in favour of having colleagues and family on the flight deck jump seat.
I revised my views on having unknown pax up for landing when a guy slapped me on the shoulder at 50 feet and said "Dost tha know where tha's goin', captain?"
(Before the wags get started, yes, we were in the slot
)
I revised my views on having unknown pax up for landing when a guy slapped me on the shoulder at 50 feet and said "Dost tha know where tha's goin', captain?"
(Before the wags get started, yes, we were in the slot
)
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All very true that passengers could and probably would get alarmed if someone not in uniform walked into the cockpit during flight. But what about this - I'm off on holiday to the USA in October, and will be flying on the 777. I would absolutely love to get up on the jumpseat for take-off, and possibly landing. Obviously ain't gonna happen, but if it was arranged with the Captain first, I could board the a/c before other pax. They wouldn't even have a clue that I was up there. Once established in the cruise, I could then make my way out of the cockpit and back to my seat where I'll spend the next 6 hours totally cramped. Pax would not be alarmed seeing me come out of the flight-deck after t/o.
And as far as getting back up there for landing - those sat at the front who might possibly be alarmed (lets remember the others down in economy won't have a clue where I'm going, and will be concentrating on their leg exercises to help prevent DVT), will have already seen me exit the flight-deck so shouldn't be too worried.
Add to this my ID card worn round my neck, and all should be good and happy.
And to make sure I'm not some wierdo who might start pulling circuit brakers or pushing the buttons, I'd have to present to the Captain my licence, my airline ID card, and my airside pass which would show I'd been through that 5year security check. If after all that the Captain is still unsure as to who I am, then he/she has total discretion to refuse me the jumpseat.
I remember travelling to LGW on a short hop from the Channel Islands before I started my flying training, and was allowed to sit on the jumpseat of the 146 for the trip over. Totally blew my mind away, and just made me want this job even more. Now a regular on the Dash-8 with ambitions of one day getting on the 777, a jumpseat ride would just bo totally amazing. Shame we've had the experience taken away from us.
And as far as getting back up there for landing - those sat at the front who might possibly be alarmed (lets remember the others down in economy won't have a clue where I'm going, and will be concentrating on their leg exercises to help prevent DVT), will have already seen me exit the flight-deck so shouldn't be too worried.
Add to this my ID card worn round my neck, and all should be good and happy.
And to make sure I'm not some wierdo who might start pulling circuit brakers or pushing the buttons, I'd have to present to the Captain my licence, my airline ID card, and my airside pass which would show I'd been through that 5year security check. If after all that the Captain is still unsure as to who I am, then he/she has total discretion to refuse me the jumpseat.
I remember travelling to LGW on a short hop from the Channel Islands before I started my flying training, and was allowed to sit on the jumpseat of the 146 for the trip over. Totally blew my mind away, and just made me want this job even more. Now a regular on the Dash-8 with ambitions of one day getting on the 777, a jumpseat ride would just bo totally amazing. Shame we've had the experience taken away from us.
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So, what exactly is the official/legal policy on who is or is not allowed to travel in the jumpseat, and does the Capt. not actually have final say? Or is he not also restricted by policy?
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I am never too bothered about having another pilot, or cabin crew on the flight deck, but would rather not have the Captain's relatives/mistress/girlfriend. If I'm ever given the option I always say that I would prefer not to have excess pax on the flight deck. It usually gets overuled by Ops or the Captain. The joys of being the co-pilot.
As long as articles like "Terror in the Skies" continue to be written logic will not control decision about access to cockpits. Parts 1,2,3,4....????
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This thread is called:
"Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives?"
Most of the posts above straight away seem to be relating to people wanting to swamp the jumpseat, just like before.
If we are talking RELATIVES ONLY, wife, sister, brother, mother, father, son, daughter then it should be allowed by now. No relative is going to kill you at work, they will do it at home quietly.
Yes I am a captain and yes, I would allow it.
The rule to keep relatives out is idiotic.
"Is it now time to reconsider jumpseat restrictions for relatives?"
Most of the posts above straight away seem to be relating to people wanting to swamp the jumpseat, just like before.
If we are talking RELATIVES ONLY, wife, sister, brother, mother, father, son, daughter then it should be allowed by now. No relative is going to kill you at work, they will do it at home quietly.
Yes I am a captain and yes, I would allow it.
The rule to keep relatives out is idiotic.
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I agree with Miss Management, but my query was not because I want a trip in the jumpseat, I'm just as happy in-back as sitting up front!
Not being a pilot though, my curiosity was merely to do with what the actual official line on this question is. Post-911 there seemed to be a whole raft of new regulations introduced governing cockpit/jumpseat access, with the main one apparently being an FAA ruling that the only non-pilot type personnel allowed to travel in the jumpseat were currently licensed flight engineers and ATCO's! Haven't been able to either confirm or debunk this, and was wondering if anyone could enlighten me, please.
As regards family in the jumpseat, I should think that if your relationship with a relative was so bad that they could be considered a liability, then you really shouldn't be bringing them to work in the first place!!
Not being a pilot though, my curiosity was merely to do with what the actual official line on this question is. Post-911 there seemed to be a whole raft of new regulations introduced governing cockpit/jumpseat access, with the main one apparently being an FAA ruling that the only non-pilot type personnel allowed to travel in the jumpseat were currently licensed flight engineers and ATCO's! Haven't been able to either confirm or debunk this, and was wondering if anyone could enlighten me, please.
As regards family in the jumpseat, I should think that if your relationship with a relative was so bad that they could be considered a liability, then you really shouldn't be bringing them to work in the first place!!
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Basil:
Hmmmm. That would make me revise my views also!
However... let us peer back through the mists of time, to a much younger Ranger One, part-way through his PPL, having talked his way (hypothetically) onto the flight deck of a Loganair... EGPF - EGPO IIRC. Over the Minch, the (hypothetical) conversation might have gone something like this:
Capt: Lovely day isn't it?
FO: Yes.
Capt: You can see Stornoway... it's going to rain.
FO: Yes.
FO: So, what do you fancy for the 4.30 at Aintree?
Capt: Dunno.
Me: Got that traffic at 12 o'clock?
<two professional aviators sitting upright and scanning rapidly>
Both: What? Where?
Me: 12 o'clock low, reciprocal heading
Turns out it was no problem, was the air ambulance outbound from EGPO, at the (correct) assigned level - but Stornoway hadn't had the courtesy to let us know (crew were well pissed with that)... and I was the only one scanning enough to SEE the damned thing, never mind spot the constant bearing.
Changed days... I'd get shot, they'd get shot, and thank the Goddess for TCAS!
R1
I revised my views on having unknown pax up for landing when a guy slapped me on the shoulder at 50 feet and said "Dost tha know where tha's goin', captain?"
However... let us peer back through the mists of time, to a much younger Ranger One, part-way through his PPL, having talked his way (hypothetically) onto the flight deck of a Loganair... EGPF - EGPO IIRC. Over the Minch, the (hypothetical) conversation might have gone something like this:
Capt: Lovely day isn't it?
FO: Yes.
Capt: You can see Stornoway... it's going to rain.
FO: Yes.
FO: So, what do you fancy for the 4.30 at Aintree?
Capt: Dunno.
Me: Got that traffic at 12 o'clock?
<two professional aviators sitting upright and scanning rapidly>
Both: What? Where?
Me: 12 o'clock low, reciprocal heading
Turns out it was no problem, was the air ambulance outbound from EGPO, at the (correct) assigned level - but Stornoway hadn't had the courtesy to let us know (crew were well pissed with that)... and I was the only one scanning enough to SEE the damned thing, never mind spot the constant bearing.
Changed days... I'd get shot, they'd get shot, and thank the Goddess for TCAS!
R1
"No this is not the time to reconsider flight deck access".
What part of my reply did you not understand? I answered the question in a very honest fashion as someone who flies aeroplanes every day.
This is NOT repeat NOT the right time to reconsider flight deck access for your Aunt Agatha, Claudia Schiffer (a distant niece?), Osama Bin Laden, Tony Blair, George Bush or anyone else.
Access to the flightdeck should remain as tight as a badger's ar*e for a very, very long time to come.
What part of my reply did you not understand? I answered the question in a very honest fashion as someone who flies aeroplanes every day.
This is NOT repeat NOT the right time to reconsider flight deck access for your Aunt Agatha, Claudia Schiffer (a distant niece?), Osama Bin Laden, Tony Blair, George Bush or anyone else.
Access to the flightdeck should remain as tight as a badger's ar*e for a very, very long time to come.
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JW411 – could you please elucidate your reasoning as to why, say, my son, daughter, wife, mother, father would be a threat to the safety of the aircraft should they happen to be sitting on flight-deck jump seat ?!
Remembering that my mother and father created me, bore me, cared for me, nursed me, wiped my arse and cleared up my puke, and similarly my wife and I have done the same for our children and as such there's very little that we don't know about one another.
Indeed I know more about them than I do the person sitting in the flight-deck seat opposite me, or the cabin crew who regularly enter the flight-deck ( which, ironically, requires that we open the FD door to grant them access / egress – duh ! )
Jeez, for all I know they ( my fellow crew members ) are al-Qaeda or Real IRA or Basque ‘freedom fighters’ working undercover / as a sleeper ! … and wherein, almost laughably, Disclosure Scotland (DS) would know stuff-all about their political or religious leanings - just as they don’t / can't investigate any prior ‘overseas’ activities that any of us might have been involved with, i.e. DS only applies to and checks upon prior dodgy 'activities' commited in the UK – wherein, as such, DS are a f'kin joke, i.e. all of the 911 team would have passed DS !
.
Tell you what, if I got my kith and kin checked-out by Disclosure Scotland, would you be happy then to let them occupy the JS - and if not, why not ?
Looking forward to understanding your logic on this; over to you......
Remembering that my mother and father created me, bore me, cared for me, nursed me, wiped my arse and cleared up my puke, and similarly my wife and I have done the same for our children and as such there's very little that we don't know about one another.
Indeed I know more about them than I do the person sitting in the flight-deck seat opposite me, or the cabin crew who regularly enter the flight-deck ( which, ironically, requires that we open the FD door to grant them access / egress – duh ! )
Jeez, for all I know they ( my fellow crew members ) are al-Qaeda or Real IRA or Basque ‘freedom fighters’ working undercover / as a sleeper ! … and wherein, almost laughably, Disclosure Scotland (DS) would know stuff-all about their political or religious leanings - just as they don’t / can't investigate any prior ‘overseas’ activities that any of us might have been involved with, i.e. DS only applies to and checks upon prior dodgy 'activities' commited in the UK – wherein, as such, DS are a f'kin joke, i.e. all of the 911 team would have passed DS !
.Tell you what, if I got my kith and kin checked-out by Disclosure Scotland, would you be happy then to let them occupy the JS - and if not, why not ?
Looking forward to understanding your logic on this; over to you......
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hi,
in regard to the issue of what passangers may think if they see somebody entering the cockpit.
That concern could be, maybe, eased by making the captain public announcement of the person's name.
" this is the captain speaking, would Mr/Ms XXXX please make him/herself "known" (sorry if it is not the correct verb, english is not my mother tongue) to the cabin crew?"
I think that might help to ease passengers concerns.
I say it because as ATC I have tried a couple of times ....and of course no luck whatsoever....
in regard to the issue of what passangers may think if they see somebody entering the cockpit.
That concern could be, maybe, eased by making the captain public announcement of the person's name.
" this is the captain speaking, would Mr/Ms XXXX please make him/herself "known" (sorry if it is not the correct verb, english is not my mother tongue) to the cabin crew?"
I think that might help to ease passengers concerns.
I say it because as ATC I have tried a couple of times ....and of course no luck whatsoever....