When is the Best Time in the Year to do a IMC?

[Lance Murdoch]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on the Private Flying forum, Im sometimes to be found lurking in the Jet Blast forum but for once I actually have an aviation related question!
Having recently completed my PPL I want to do a IMC rating. Is it best to wait until the autumn/ winter or should I start now? Im based in the UK btw. Also would it be cheaper to do the IMC intensively in a foreign country?
Thanks for reading this and I would be grateful if people would share their experiences, both good and bad!
:ok:

[AerBabe]

Speaking with absolutely no experience, other than a little post-PPL training... I would say that winter might be easier when you start as the air will be smoother & you should find straight and level less work. Having enough cloud to fly in isn't really a problem in the UK. :(

[S-Works]

winter is not really the best time to do it in the Uk unless you are doing it an an anti/de-iced aircraft as the freezing level in the Uk is so low and the very restrictive nature of our airspace does not allow you to get above it. Also choosing a time that gives you an easy ride may not be the best for real world use. Personally I have yet to fly inside a cloud that I found smooth. (In fact todays cloud was full of lighting and rain!)

The average club spamcan trainer unfortunatly in my experiance does not run to the appropriate icing kit.

This time of year is probably the best time to do the rating especially at the moment where we do not seem to have a shortage of cloud but the freezing level is very high.

Please have a look at the other recent threads on IMC training regarding the time after rating before staring the IMC as I think you will find the consenus is get some experiance as a PPL before going on the instuments.

[DB6]

Start now, don't wait for winter. As mentioned the problem with winter is that any clouds often deposit unwelcome layers if ice on the aircraft so better in summer. IMC is a UK only rating (not JAR) so options to learn abroad will be severely limited. I'd recommend doing a good deal of ground work beforehand using a training aid like RANT on your computer. It will save you literally hundreds of pounds in the air.

[High Wing Drifter]

I'd recommend doing a good deal of ground work beforehand using a training aid like RANT on your computer. It will save you literally hundreds of pounds in the air.
I would suggest getting RANT, but do an hour of NDB training in the a/c before starting in earnest with it. The way you have to fly does not come across well in tutotials and you only really understand what you are trying to acheive once you have been shown. Uninitiated practice will probably just lead to more confusion in the air... honestly.

I agree, start training now. This Summer is so crappy that you will probably be in real IMC for much of the time too! I did mine in May/June and of the 16 hours training, about 9 were in IMC. Invaluable!

[Evo]

RANT is excellent - worth every penny :ok:

[carbar]

What is RANT? Have you got any details (e.g. website)?

Thanks

[Evo]

RANT is a tool for learning how to use navaids to do all the things you need to do for the IMC (or IR) - there's a website at http://www.oddsoft.com/ which used to have a demo, not sure if it still does or not.

[S-Works]

Can I still make my point about getting experiance as a PPL before going off and doing the IMC.

An IMC is pretty useless other than as a badge to a new PPL as you do not have the experiance to properly control the aircraft yet or have the spare capacity to deal with the task loading of operating the aircraft safely in IMC.

It is all well and good being able to do it with the instructors sat next to you but when you need it for real the task loading is massive.

The old adage about at 50 hours you think you know everything etc. is true!

[High Wing Drifter]

The old adage about at 50 hours you think you know everything etc. is true!
I can vouch for that. I was a know-it-all.
It is all well and good being able to do it with the instructors sat next to you but when you need it for real the task loading is massive.
I can vouch for that too. But I think this is fairly typical for me and aviation. Each new step seems insurmountable, but it always (so far) clicks into place.

[Evo]

I did an IMC as a fairly new PPL (a bit more than 50 hours, but not many more) and I'd agree with bose-x. However, it's still very good training, provided that you accept that it isn't going to turn you into an IFR god flying NDB approaches down to 600 foot (or 300 foot, if you prefer :cool: ). Is it the best use of money? With hindsight, probably not, but if IFR is your thing and money isn't too tight then it's fun and well worth doing.

As an aside, most low-hours IMC holders seem to do very little, if any, solo flying in IMC, so the only bit of the IMC training you'll probably use regularly while flying VFR is the radio nav stuff. You could cover the same stuff for much less money with the shorter AOPA Radio Navigation course - the attraction of the IMC must be strong though, because i've never met anyone who has done the AOPA course :)

[baldwinm]

Well I did the AOPA Nav course at Sherburn in the early eighties.

It counted towards the minimum hours needed for the IMC, which I did later.

I did it because I wanted to be able to use the available Nav kit in the aircraft I was hiring at the time.

You don't hear about it much these days though.

[Aussie Andy]

You don't hear about it much these days though. Presumably because Radio Nav is now in he JAR syllabus...

[Evo]

A bit like saying instrument flying is in the PPL, AA ;)

Looking through the book, the AOPA course seems far more comprehensive than the PPL - all I did in my PPL test was position fixing (VOR/DME, simple!) and tracking a VOR radial for a couple of minutes...

[enzo_04]

I too have recently finished my PPL but am not sure of the need of an IMC rating as i would still want to see the ground even if i where to be tracking a VOR. Im actually wanting to get the MEP rating next and do cross-channel flying, so i guess it would not be valid on these routes anyway?

Does having an IMC rating still limit you to flying conditions throughout the year in a non anti-ice plane, but is it usefull to have anyway?

[UL730]

Mr Murdoch

In the summertime during daylight hours- my humble recommendation.

Cost factor: don't forget the words of John Ruskin

"It is unwise to pay too much but is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money... that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the things it was bought for"

The price might also be more than money?

Enjoy - it's great experience and one a Gentlemen Aviator should relish.

[S-Works]

you will find and MEP rating is pretty restrictive without an anstrument rating of some sort. The IMC is a very good start.

I fly around 150hrs a year in twins and have found very little of that flying that could be done CFR only and make the most of the vast price you pay for a twin.

[bookworm]

winter is not really the best time to do it in the Uk unless you are doing it an an anti/de-iced aircraft as the freezing level in the Uk is so low and the very restrictive nature of our airspace does not allow you to get above it.

Not so convinced about this for training. The bulk of the IMC rating training is done locally at the lower levels, 2000 or 3000 ft. If you're in the flatlands, while it's certainly possible for the freezing level to drop below this, it's relatively unusual.

I think autumn is probably best, as you've got most stability. Spring is almost certainly worst. I recently completed a week of fairly intense IF training in February, without weather interruption, but perhaps I was just lucky.

[Andy_R]

am not sure of the need of an IMC rating as i would still want to see the ground even if i where to be tracking a VOR.

Which is exactly what I thought until this week, when I got caught out and would have given anything for an IMC rating!!!

As it turns out, keeping a cool head meant I got back in one piece but I have now resolved that I will get my IMC as soon as I can afford it. The way the weather goes in the UK you never know when you may need to call on it.

[S-Works]

bookworm,

sorry to disagree, but the freezing level in the UK IS low enough to cause problems. When I did my IMC we did it late Autumn through early winter with most approaches into Cambridge and there were a number of days when I suffered severe airframe icing.

Don't be fooled by the freezing level you see on the metforms. I have had ice form at 1500ft above the flatlands.

Doing IR training was actually a lot better as we were above the freezing level most of the time.

[bookworm]

I think you were probably unlucky bose-x. I've been based at Cambridge for more than 15 years an flying practice approaches there for most of them. I don't remember scrubbing a trip for icing. Come to think of it, "severe airframe icing"? "Number of days"? I'm surprised I didn't hear of these emergencies.

[S-Works]

Bookworm, I bow to your obviously superior knowledge of my situation. I can see how as P1 and actually there my knowledge is inferior to yours gleaned from your keyboard over the internet........ :E I also had no idea that I had to report all icing to you, I will ensure I do so in future. :p

I can assure you that we had to abort a number of sessions due ice build up at low level. On one trip doing VOR holds on the DTY VOR at 1800ft we gained a covering on the wings and fin that we were able to remove on the ground in the shape of the front of the tail fin. Personally I consider this severe! :p

[Monocock]

Ding Ding!!

Let round 6 begin.

:ouch:

[bookworm]

On one trip doing VOR holds on the DTY VOR at 1800ft we gained a covering on the wings and fin that we were able to remove on the ground in the shape of the front of the tail fin. Personally I consider this severe!

I see. There are standard definitions of icing:

Trace icing is barely perceptible and presents no hazard to flight
Light icing is something that you can fly in for up to about an hour without significant hazard
Moderate icing requires regular use of de-icing equipment
Severe icing is defined as icing in which sustained flight is impossible even with regular use of de-icing facilities.

Severe icing should be reported to ATC and constitutes an emergency, in my book at least, and if it happened at Cambridge I'd expect to read about it in the Safety Committee minutes. What you encountered sounds like it fits the definition of light, possibly moderate, icing.

We'll have to agree to differ on the frequency of occurence.

[S-Works]

I'm sorry but no where in my post did I state I had suffered severe airframe icing at cambs. I merely menetioned that "most" of my approaches had been to cambs not all.

We can all be pedantic!

Anyway I am off to do some real flying not keyboard and definitions flying. :p

[slim_slag]

Have to say I consider any icing on these trainers to be "severe", you shouldn't be in clouds if there is the slightest chance of icing, but I am a grey-haired pussy now.

I think autumn is probably best, as you've got most stability.

That would be a bad time to learn then, you want to be thrown around in your training, not good if you find yourself shooting your first bumpy IMC approach with 16.1 hours under the hood.

[FullyFlapped]

quote:
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am not sure of the need of an IMC rating as i would still want to see the ground even if i where to be tracking a VOR.
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All I can say is you mustn't do very much long distance flying in the UK except at VERY low levels ... never been VMC on top ?

I think the rating was the best money I've ever spent ... full IR next !

FF

[Lance Murdoch]

Thanks everybody for your replies, its been useful to get different peoples opinion, as circumstances are I'll probably not be able to start until October at the earliest.
UL730 your words of caution are duly noted and Ive learnt through the bad experiences of friends in aviation that quality training is essential. Fortunately I do fly at a good school.

[Keef]

I did my IMCR very soon after the PPL, and had some sessions cancelled because the freezing level was too low. I also had several instances of trace or light icing, but none that caused any worry.

I'm with bookworm - who I know flies regularly around Europe, under IFR, in singles and twins. There will be times that the cold plus the cloud will mean "no flying" unless you have deicing equipment, but those times are relatively few.

Given a choice, I would do the IMCR in Spring or Autumn - there is more likely to be some cloud around, so less need to wear the hood or foggles. Mind you, this summer has been pretty IMC most of the time...

[Brooklands]

Lance,

Another thing to bear in mind if doing the training during the winter months is whether your home airfield has an instrument approach or not.

If your home airfield doesn't have an instrument approach (EGTB, where I'm based doesn't) then quite often when the weather is suitable for real IMC flying you won't be able to get back home. I once had to cancel my IMC renewal because although the weather was above minima at Luton, there was no way we could get back into Wycombe.

Brooklands