Ryanair pilots paying to keep their jobs ?

[autobrake3]

I've heard that the pilots that were taken over as a result of the Buzz buyout are now having to re apply for their positions and pay £50 for an interview dispite the fact that they already hold contracts with Ryanair. If this is the case and Ryanair decide that conveniently some are suddenly not suitable I presume redundancy must be payable ?

[brownstar]

Buzz guys

if this is true, get a lawyer. What happened to the TUPE agreement.?
Take some action

[flaps to 60]

If you ever needed another example of just what type of person MOL is you would be hard pressed to top this.

When EZY took over GO apart from the usual niggles with just such a process of intergration it appeared from the outside to be a fairly painless process.

But as soon as the flying Harp with the boob job gets involved all hell breaks loose.

This saga has been going on for ages and im sure the Buzz guys are sick and tired of it.

I wish you all a satisfactory conclusion to this soon and i hope that MOL comes to realise that share price and money isn't everything but being able to say i did a good job and made some friends along the way is just as important.


Bring on BALPA if they crack the Mullingar Knacker then they just might gain some credability.

Good Luck

[Dewdrop]

There is an arguement that says if FR hadn't bought BUZZ a year ago all the pilots would have been made redundent then.

[Baron buzz]

There is also an argument that says if FR hadnt bought Buzz a year ago, another airline/company may have. Its the management of Buzz/KLM that let Buzz become a mess in the first place and put itself in the position where it had to be sold. Perhaps the selling of Buzz to FR just prolonged the inevitible.

This does not mean that I agree with the treatment of the Buzz pilots/crew in any way. Best of luck to you all.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

If all the buzz pilots were made redundant last year, the package would have been significantly better than any Ryanair might offer now. Buzz redundancy now will probably be based on length of service from April '03, with 1 weeks salary per year.

[LTNman]

A group of 140 check-in staff and aircraft dispatchers who were sacked when the low-cost airline Buzz was bought by Ryanair have won "satisfactory" compensation after a year-long battle over wrongful dismissal.
The GMB union yesterday said it had reached an out of court settlement. But its senior organiser, Ed Blis sett, said the money was "cold comfort" for the loss of livelihood. An insider said the deal amounted to some £100,000, which represents around three weeks' wages for each of the employees, most of whom were part-time.

Dutch airline KLM, which owned Buzz, is believed to be providing the money under an indemnity provided to Ryanair.

Mr Blissett said: "Ryanair's unnecessary sackings paint an accurate picture of a callous and malevolent employer who doesn't give a damn for anyone or anything apart from making a profit."

The takeover descended into acrimony last year when Ryanair's chief executive, Michael O'Leary, above, told Buzz staff that he would shut down the carrier unless they accepted mass dismissals. Mr O'Leary justified his actions on the grounds that Buzz had the "sh*tt*est" planes flying to "sh*tty" airports.

He is still in dispute with the pilots' union, Balpa, which has accused Ryanair of breaking so-called Tupe regulations, which cover the transfer of staff, by rewriting Buzz pilots' entitlements to breaks and holidays.

[ramsrc]

Cold comfort for the Buzz staff.

Buzz had the "sh*tt*est" planes flying to "sh*tty" airports Sounds to me like the pot calling the kettle black.

I know this has been covered many times before but Buzz was an excellent little airline with a teriffic bunch of staff. I for one really miss flying Buzz :(

[BEagle]

So do I. The little yellow 4-holers weren't exactly new, but they went to the right places at the right price. The check-in staff allocated seat numbers and there was even a nice executive lounge at STN. Unlike another STN low-cost operator, buzz exemplified what a low-cost airline should be like!

An excellent little airline with very pleasant staff. Sorely missed. But I'm glad that they've won this case - and hope that the other will also succeeed.

[False Capture]

Mr O'Leary justified his actions on the grounds that Buzz had the "sh*tt*est" planes flying to "sh*tty" airports.

Whereas Ryanair has "sh*tty" planes that fly to the "sh*tt*st" airports. :ok:

[Doug the Head]

Oh here we go again, Britons glorifying anything that´s old, obsolete, and completely outdated like the Bae 146! C´mon you guys and gals, wake up! It´s the year two thousand and four (2004!) for cryin´ out loud! :rolleyes:

BTW, I´m happy for the folks that won the lawsuit though! Good job! Don´t put up with any more sh*t from MOL! Maybe a glimmer of hope for the Ryanair pilots´ A call to Arms? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1459630#post1459630)

[panda-k-bear]

As opposed to 737-200s dating back to what, 1978? Hmm, let me see, when was the EIS of the one-four-sick? Oh, quite a number of years AFTER that. So who's flying the rubbish?

[Doug the Head]

You´re right about the -200´s. Those must be worse than the ex-Go junkers we have in the EZY fleet! :uhoh:
Again the UK/Ireland/US are ideologically not far apart! If it ain´t broke (or it has not completely collapsed yet) don´t fix it! :D

BTW, regarding the £50,- application fee: you can apply free with EZY and you already have the 737 type! EZY is not the greatest airline in the world and you need to look beyond the ´we´re a happy little family´ hype, but we do get crewmeals and bottles of water and have BALPA recognition!

[Morpheme]

Ex-GO junkers?

YF, YD, YB - the three biggest bags of :mad: in the fleet. And yes, they are "old" eJ equipment.

The defence rests!

[maxalt]

Given a choice between a 20 year old 732 and a brand new 146...I'll take the 732 every time.
So would anyone who has flown both.

[MarkD]

Makes one wonder why MOL fought so hard vs the employees when KLM was paying... makes one think he would have been cheering them on.

Unfortunately, the pilots in question are not FR pilots, they just fly FR services. So now they have to reapply. Hopefully this pilot shortage we hear about means they will find a nicer home than Stalag MOL.

If MOL is set to shut Buzz down then non-EU services ex STN are probably off the table since the Buzz AOC was thought to be for that purpose by PPRuNe rumours.

[Bus429]

What is it with Ryanair management? Are they so arrogant as to believe they can do what they like? Has anyone paid for an interview? I've worked all around the world and come up against some pretty screwed up logic and procedures but this seems completely unreal.:confused:

[atse]

Bus429. Such innocence! Of course people have paid for interviews. And for simultator checks. And for their type conversion course (in advance). And they pay for their uniforms, every month, for as long as they are employees (think carefully about that one...). No pension, pay for medicals.. etc. etc. And it goes on and on.

But it is going to get much worse. Because that is just a taste of what this is about. Threatened future items include paying for your simulator every year and, if you are on the 732, you will pay for your course onto the 738. On that logic, it will be easier (and cheaper) to employ new pilots than those senior pilots on the 732 because you will be able to promote ambitious young types and give them new (cheaper) contracts.

The cream on the cake will be that if BALPA and IALPA can be blamed they become the excuse for doing it. If they are not around to blame, then you can just do it anyway - just like he has been doing for quite some time!

Beware, here there be no rules, except those of the jungle. Stay clear of this danger zone.

[flaps to 60]

MOLLY has made a right b@lls up of the Buzz take over and had this been any other airline not ruled by a self deluding jumped up pencil necked demi god then he would have been sacked.

But because he had held the share price for so long the investors are under the impression that he can stop the slide he has so far survived.

It's easy to copy somebody else's idea and make a success of it. MOL has tried to achieve the success that most airlines gain in mergers and aquisitions and has failed misserably.

To me has proven that he really has no business foresight and had a severe knee jerk reaction to the rather more clever deal brokered by EZY.

Reagan uped his defence budget in the 80's and the USSR followed and consequently fell because of it. Is Stelios really that clever?

[Yellow Belly]

Yes we have been told that unless we apply online and pay £50 we will not get jobs if Buzz is closed in October. This gets Ryanair around TUPE again as we will have been seen to have resigned and started on new contracts ( on probation for a year yet again!).

"Interviews" were carried out last week. But no one could tell us what was going on, what the contract was, bonds etc, a complete waste of time!

The next day at a "Town hall meeting" we were told unless we drop the BALPA TUPE case, oustsanding from the Buzz takeover, due in December that we would not be given permanent contracts. Ryanair as usual are playing their usual dirty tricks!:*

[loveJet]

Oh please all of u are making me wanna vomit. Buzz was like Debonair, trying to cater for all tastes, premium and Cheapies....never works. Ryanair and MOL are the best thing that ever happened to the European Airline Industry... It just sounds to me like all you pilots like to work for cute airlines that dont ask much of you, maybe 6 hours work a week and pay you loads for it. My god! Unfortunately the harsh reality is that pilots are providing public transport. If its safer than driving a bus, a car, a train or a boat then perhaps the pay should reflect the risk too. In this case- very slim.

I admire MOL and respect him a great deal. I think most people that fly Ryanair do too. If the pilots were that pissed off they'd all leave and go to Bastard Airways (BA).

Ok reading back over this, maybe i've been too harsh....but come on you must get my point deep down. Everyone seems to get so lovey dovey about defunct failed and bust airlines...and that gets me :yuk:

[atse]

Lovejet. What a nice name. But what strange sentiments. Vomit indeed!!

They seem rather ideological, not to mention disparaging about pilots. And so positive about the skills our revered great leader Kim Il MOL.

Are you just a free roving free-enterprise and capitalist spirit?

Or do you also eminate from the depths of the evil empire?

What dear readers, on a scale of 1 to 100, are the odds that this is a manifestation of the latter affliction?

If it does come from a certain desk, you already know that we are aware you have PPRuNe alive and well in your offices (cause the occasional visitor has seen it!). But you are going to have to do a lot better than these periodic, pathetic and almost transparent efforts under a new disguise.

You still have not got it. You are in the deepest of deep dodo. This time the more you intimidate us, the greater the anger.

Long may it last.

[Robert Vesco]

Sounds like Southwest, a LoCo airline which is know for treating and paying it´s staff very well. ;)

[GGV]

How about this: F/Os pays for type rating (as normal). Not paid anything until the safety pilot disappears on the line. Then goes onto half sector pay. No basic pay until final line check (what does “Basic pay” mean in FR?). Remain on half sector pay until probation is finished. (With the possibility that the basic pay will in the coming months be even lower than currently expected - already under £10k p.a.).

Add this to the mix: all new captains will have a clause in their contract that, if and when called upon, they can become (unpaid) line trainers. So, some time after their promotion we will have an unpaid trainer on “new contract” command money with a “half sector pay F/O” making for a rather cheap crew. Of course, the line training requirement will then be increased “to maintain standards” and, incidentally, extend the period on half sector pay. Rather neat! (The opening gambits in this scenario are REAL. It is just starting, but it is already here).

And some (an ever smaller minority) of the existing pilots still think that this kind of action does not have anything to do with them. Fools. They will learn in the end that their lot will be no better. In the end they too will be given an offer they cannot refuse. Variants of this game have already been played out.

Ryanair eats its children.

[buzzflyer]

I was appalled, but not at all suprised to be invited to apply online and pay 50 of my hard earned pounds for the priviledge of joining the company in all but name i have been flying for the last 16 months. The interviews were a complete farce!!!!!!!!. I was also dissapoimted during the town hall meetings to see so many colleagues almost in tears when presented with the prospect of not getting permanent contracts at Stn . Some of the bleeting that was going on was frankly embarassing , ie ("I've written a letter to BALPA to not the pursue the TUPE case on my behalf and your still not giving us a permanent position"), and in some cases people actually admitted resigning from BALPA, obviously thinking it would gain them some kind of favour with FR management ,well it did'nt not surprisingly . In fact some of the newer Buzz guys have nothing to do with KLM/FR TUPE case because they joined afterwards but are still being offered the same lousy deal regardless. proof if ever there was needed that this has everything to do with getting people onto the most diverse and cheapest range of contracts going , it also serves to divide and conquer . For Gods sake guys show some principle's and a bit of backbone for everyones sake.

[AfricanSkies]

Some things in life are hard to swallow, and one of the hardest is to accept that you are getting whipped and treated like a dog.

If you don't stand up to the whipping now, you will be whipped around for the rest of your career. I know you think "it's not great pay, but its my first jet job/command and once I get a few hours I'll apply to x/y/z" but by the time you get a few hours x/y/z have seen that pilots have been forced to work for less in the LCC's et al and their remunerations dropped accordingly. But you'll make a go at x/y/z because "it might not be great pay but it's my first heavy, I'll get a few hours, maybe a year and then I'll apply to A/B/C".

All's well then some economic / security / political upheaval might come along and the industry will "flatten out" and your year turns into 5 but you stick it out because at least it's a job and when the industry picks up again, you'll be well in line for one of the top jobs.....and thankfully the interview from A/B/C comes along but the pay package at A/B/C has dropped a bit because for the last best part of a decade A/B/C've been cropping their packages because pilots in the feeder airlines have been working for far less because it's all they could do to hold a job down. You'll have to keep the old banger going for a bit longer but "at least I'm in".

The LCC's are having a very negative effect on the whole industry, turning what used to be a priviledged way of travel into "cheap travel for the masses". Individuals controlling airlines shouting "I'm turning this business inside out, standing it on its ear and showing the world just how easy and cheap it really can be". Cutting salaries to ridiculous levels and then still face-slapping by making them pay for own uniforms, it's easy, they'll kill each other for these jobs!

It's negative for all employees in the whole, worldwide, industry, and negative for the whole worldwide industry itself.

Let's not kid ourselves whose side we're on here - the side of the professional pilot's. Our lifestyle has declined. The more and more punters we fly through increasingly congested skies for less and less money and worse and worse hotels and perks contributes directly to our lower salaries, worse perks and more work. Now every year more and more million passengers pass through our airports and congest them. How much more unpleasant travelling by air has become. The parking, the check-in, the security, the lounges, the aircraft themselves - all overcrowded, congested and a thoroughly unpleasant experience compared to what it used to be. All a huge rush to maintain the schedule, get the level, get some sleep..

The industry certainly is not what it once was, cost-cutting being the eroding factor but cheap large credit being the main culprit. Instead of a few passengers at a high price, a lot of pax at a lower price equals more profit. How to shift lots of pax? More shiny airplanes. More cash. More credit.

How many of you have heard this one? "Uhm, sorry guys, no raises this year, the company's on thin ice" or this one "please, you've got to be flexible the company's got a bit of a cash flow problem", or just a plain Staff Memo noting "that due to the unfavourable financial climate, salary adjustments will be delayed this year" ?? So we all take it because "its bound to improve". But it won't it is a changing industry, morphing from a highly-paid flag-carrier pilot's job with long stopovers in great hotels with lots of time off times of the very early days to the underpaid pilots job with bags under eyes smiling a quick hello to everyone he sees at 4.30 am every morning for a week. Its become a mass-transit system funded by ever lower and lower fares. Its pilots a lot poorer than they once were.

Funny because the pilots are some of the people who have the greatest amount of leverage over the company, if they decided not to fly, there would be a lot of revenue lost. This could break a company very easily, especially if the strike were a industry-wide one. Far more easily than sometimes imagined. Look at airlines like Swiss, who would have thought that they would have gone under? These companies need very large credit and they operate very close to the redline. Why ? To have more aircraft to ferry more and more people around the globe for cheaper and cheaper fares. But hang on...that doesn't sound right? How can you fly more yet do it cheaper? When the only income you have is passenger fares, how can you reduce them and yet buy more and more multi-million dollar jets to operate with? Where is the debt accumulating? In the credit line of the airline. The airlines are diluting themselves to get larger, ergo our lifestyles get diluted.

We can stop it and it is only in our own interests to stop it. I'm not saying 'we as an industry must blah blah...it doesn't work. What I am saying though, is that as a individuals, within yourself, decide, realise that we are getting whipped like dog and and need to stand up for ourselves and say, no. I'm worth more than that, I'll wait for a better offer, and not take the badly-paying job in the meantime. And I'll let them know why, it was because the pay was too low. You've got to know that you are doing it for your future, to secure your future 20 or 35 years in the industry as a proud, well-paid professional, as part of a team of brethren pilots all over the world that you will greet with a smile at every far-flung destination you go to, not a cowed dog who works for peanuts and avoids the eyes of his fellow pilots. It might not take as long as you think, it wouldn't be a matter of years...if a lot of the applicants for a lot of the jobs waited just a few months, the situation would improve fast when the pilots weren't turning up by the financial due date, multiple rejections due to 'too low pay'.

Don't help to dilute your own life.

:ok:

[Yeager's Lovechild]

Never a truer word. I'm not even with FR.

[Hotel Charlie]

AfricanSkies, right on the money! We are our own worst enemy. FR guys, be strong. MOL is f...... up the europeen airline industry and he must be stopped!

[Brookmans Park]

Some of MAD MICK'S ex Brittania 200s date back to around 1969
YES
some are rotting at PIK but not all

[GGV]

Some things in life are hard to swallow, and one of the hardest is to accept that you are getting whipped and treated like a dog.

AfricanSkies, my congratulations.

You got it all in one - summed up in a single posting. What you said should be printed, framed and put up on the wall by all aspiring professional pilots, whether they be in Ryanair or elsewhere.

[AfricanSkies]

Why, thank you GGV, you are very kind.:ok:

[autobrake3]

Having paid £50, the new deal is now conveniently conducted through some Ryanair scam agency who insist on the signing away yet again of any previous agreements or deals for a three year contract. Around £50k for a captain, water not included. Sad and getting worse by the day.

[stormin norman]

Previous
"Some of MAD MICK'S ex Brittania 200s date back to around 1969
YES some are rotting at PIK but not all"

Rumour has it an EAL 200 was refused by the ground engineers to depart from Lasham cos of excessive corrosion on the rear spar.Sounds like the 200's really are on their last legs.

Whatever happened to the CAA ?
Apparently there's a whole bunch of people in this rather large grey building in the gatwick area responsible for the safe and continued airworthiness of all aircraft operating within the uk.Anybody seen any of them about ?

The atmosphere at the harped airline sounds terrible,with low pay, cabin staff that cannot organize a routine evacuation,pilots p.......d off and a MD that clearly dosn't give a t..ss about any of his staff.History tells us its an accident waiting to happen.

[STANDTO]

Does the CAA cover Eire operations?

[GGV]

Standto - the IAA covers most of Ryanair's operations. And what they will say to anyone who mouths off about Ryanair is simple: "if you have solid and specific evidence of Ryanair safety deficiencies we will act upon that information, but we will not deal in rumours". And then things normally go silent. Which when you think about it is a rather interesting turn of events.

[STANDTO]

So, if you blow someone in to trading standards, they will at least go and have a look, but the IAA won't unless they are presented with the evidence.

I think I will suggest something similar in my line of work;

" Mrs Bloggs, your house may well have been burgled, but you will have to come to us with some real evidence before we do anything!"

:D

[GGV]

STANDTO, I think you may have missed the point of my short reply. Obviously the said airline meets all JAA requirements - both on paper and on inspection. If you think that is nonsense then you will need to produce some evidence. Which is where we started.

If you think the approach of the CAA would be any different you are misinformed. Try ANY authority with a "everyone knows X" but without any supporting evidence for "X" other than hearsay and see how far it gets you. BTW, whatever about the Ryanair culture, the training standards are probably not a lot different from comparable airlines. It's just that the attention the airline gets for other – highly justifiable - reasons tends to rub off into training and other areas.

It is easy for those of us strongly opposed to all that Ryanair stands for to be tempted into overstating our case. However, in case you misunderstand me, I am very strongly opposed to the Ryanair way of doing business with its pilots (and its denial of representation). There is more than enough evidence to support the argument that they behave very badly towards their employees. I am more than happy to argue that case.

[eng123]

For the record none of the RYR 200's date back to 1969 as was claimed earlier.The oldest one is 1980.
I don't see how the reference to a EAL aircraft has any relevance to the condition of Ryanair's 200's.

[Tom the Tenor]

Is it down to knocking Ryanair 737-200s now just for the sake of it?

Well, just to let you know there are some really clapped out British registered 737-300s out there too.

I know because I was on two in the last week, the second of which caused a more than 12 hour delay. I was also on two FR flights last week. Both new 738s and both landed ahead of scheduled and one by up to 20 minutes.

[clohessy the claw]

heard from a friend that at least two of the buzz cadre(2 captains) cut a private deal with fr to recieve a permanent contract and a base in cia in return for signing a disclaimer that they would have no further links with buzz or any legal actions on their behalf.very astute on their part but not very caring about their brethern.

[fairness]

FR pilots working in the company be it 1 month or 15 years now have to pay all expenses whilst being converted from the 200 on to the 800. They have to pay their own transport (including airfares - as they are off duty), food and accommodation for the duration of their conversion training 4-6 weeks and during line training. And also sign a 2 year bond.

Also bear in mind that they will not be paid sector pay whilst training either - this will bring the cost directly to the pilot of over 4000.

What other company would send an employee away for training and expect them to pay for their own transport, food and accommodation on top of all the other annual expenses now incurred.

They have reached a new low in employee relations – where is the fight back ?

[Oxidant]

Hmmmm...

Well, IF you ALL said "NO ".....(few other thoughts :mad: came to me)
What are they going to do? Sack you all? Constructive dismissal springs to mind.(Or is that not in Irish law?)

[dontdoit]

No sympathy. No-one at Ryanair to the best of my knowledge has been conscripted, everyone is there of their own free will.

It's thanks to the likes of the FR pilots that industry-wide terms and conditions have entered the current downward spiral in which we find ourselves, no thanks, in a very large part, to those who have prostituted themselves for FR and other lo-cost outifts.

You made your bed guys, you will now have to lie in it.

[hobie]

I'm guessing that a "800" rating would be better paid than a "200" ?

if so, whats the monetary benefit , say over a full year?

[RVR800]

These HR practices are to be deplored - it cant be good for staff morale!

[Arkroyal]

For the sake of the whole industry.....................

Please refuse this nonsense.

MOL is single-handedly responsible for the dreadful state this industry is in. This will just make it unbearable.

[RAT 5]

fairness,

Forgetting about the upgrading costs etc. that might be a less easy argument to win, do you not have a contract that states where you are based, and if operating away from base on company duty, what expenses the company is liable for? Surely, if your equipment is removed and the company requires you to be retrained, that amounts to being on duty. If the company lays you off and replaces you with with new entrants, that brings in redundancy considerations, not to mention all the other labour law regulations.
However, the on duty away from base expenses should be clear cut. If the company insists you sign away those rights to secure the retraining, that is unreasonable coercion to change contractual conditions of employment for the worse, and would not be by mutual consent.
However, I feel that these laws are only ever enforced when someone sues. When was the last time that happened in your outfit?

[SpectreLover]

Hmm... the same old attack and defend Ryanair thing...

Pilots that can see that the profession now equals a ****ty job and attacks the cause, and the pilots that work ****ty jobs and defends it (their own pride).

jazzcat2000, how good can training at Ryanair be when contract pilots (on real bad contracts) live in lousy bed and breakfast places, selfsponsoring it ofcourse and with no per diems or the like - and NO pay, because that is paid by the block hour.

Damn, how can you guys even discuss it????????????????????

Go make yourself a union and **** Ryanair big time! Then come again with your rosy "I can see the bright side ****"!

The day I need to fly for an airline like Ryanair or their like, I will quit the pilot business, and get decent education and job. I will not be treated like a cow.

THERE IS NO BRIGHT SIDE - ONLY YOUR WISH TO MISS IT!

[Firestorm]

I think I will read my next contract very very carefully to make sure that it doesn't allow things like that to happen. I don't work for Ryan Air, so can't comment on whether these rumours are correct or not, but will take it as a warning.

I hope they are unfounded, but if they do turn out to be true, it is unspeakable. Unfortunately, where Ryan Air have led, the rest of the industry seems to have followed! :*

[scraglad]

I over heared an FR pilot say that he would get better benifets from pulling an advertisment kite on the back of a C172 than working for Ryanair.As said above,all the FR pilots have made their bed,now they have to sleep in it. Pay £15.000 for a type rating and then during your line training you dont get paid untill you are finished............get stuffed. I thought companys pay you to work!! Sorry FR pilots,no sympathy here!!

[chikenscanfly]

I don't really take kindly to the kind of comment made in this forum, the one along the lines of "made your own bed, now lie in it".

At the moment we are lying in it, and are trying to change things back around. What most people dont consider is that conditions and employee relations were not at this level less than a year ago.

There was, very recently, a time when Ryanair was a well-paid job with good terms and conditions.

Now that has changed and us pilots are fighting back against this with whatever we can, this including an upcoming union recognition vote.

So please, bear this in mind before making any further judgement calls. Your opinions are understood and by all means accepted.

[Say Mach Number]

Have to agree with chikenscanfly this has only come about since March/April and end of year results and there are plans afoot via the unions to provide protection. In saying that Balpa have been particularly anonymous lately!

Up until this point terms and conditions were acceptable and possibly better than in some other companies. Eg Fixed roster, posted 1 month in advance, no night stops, no night flying, **** load of money(5k month), decent equipment.

Those things above have not changed but yes many things have. But its not just as simple people make out as this is a big company now with over 700 pilots and many of those scattered to bases all over Europe.

I have thought about voting with my feet but I cant find another company out there in the UK where I can keep my Command and will provide me with those things I have stated above. Thats the reality unfortunately!

[Dewdrop]

....and unfortunately thats the reality, a cut in benefits vs no job at all. In the states we see pilots voting for pay cuts, in Europe we see operators going under, or in desperate straits. The reduction in terms and conditions is never nice but this industry is fighting for its very life (anyone seen the fuel price latley !), an 800 command in the strongest company in the sector will look very attractive to many, even the opportunity would be great.

[Dewdrop]

Contract Pilots on real bad contracts ? you are joking right, these guys are better paid then those on the line.

[SpectreLover]

Dewdrop, I bet you are a FR pilot.

NO, I am not joking.

Do you think 60 Eur for a block hour, no perdiems,no transp., no pension, no hotels, selfsponsored SIM and uniform, base shifting all over europe and doing the travel in the freetime, no nothing... is a good deal????

You have to be a sadomasochistic pilot to think that! But that is what many have become, in order to survive and stay in the business.

If these ****ty contracts are better than a firm contract for Ryanair, then that says it all.

If you defend FR again, I wont go into a discussion about it - you can do a scroll on the LOTS of other discussions on Ryanair, and think before you type.

[Mindthegap]

Contaract capt gets 134 euros an hour that means if he flies 90 hours pr month he gets 12060 euros a month, Fo gets 84 euros an hour *90 7560 euros a month. thats not pennies is it.

[Firestorm]

You guys at Ryan Air seem to be between a rock and a hard place, with little support from BALPA or anyone else. Good luck for a sensible outcome! I don't like this progressive march towards employees subsidising the shareholders/owners bottom line :*

[outofsynch]

easyJet has fixed roster (soon to be almost 5/3) no night stops, or night flying, decent equipment (737-700/A319), not quite as much money, but crew food/water, training paid plus allowances!!

The only hitch is getting the recruitment department to listen to you!

[Cyberbird]

...well, signing up with RYAN-Air (I know two guys working for FR via Brookfield aviation) is just like prostitution - selling out y'self for the highest price - but DON'T winge thereafter being trated accordingly (as some kind of prostitute ;-)) -
No offence against anyone personally though!? Just think 'bout it!

[Stelios]

I think I must be the luckiest pilot of all, when they lied to me and got me the wrong base and I refused to work for the outfit in the end.
I can't believe what I keep on reading about FR.
Pilots, we (YOU) have the power to ground the whole operation now. Facing immediate ruin, MOL will have to give in to any demand you make, go and get it.




Edited by PPRUNE (unbeknown to Stelios).

[cargo boy]

F/O's are on 55 euro a block hour. Assuming they are worked to within an inch of fatigue for 90 hours a month, 10 months of the year, they will earn, before tax and all the other expenses 49,500 euro which equates to £33,700. One expanding loco has just announced that their starting F/O salary is £40,800 and they include all the other 'perks' such as water, coffee, uniforms, medicals, licence renewals, hotac, transport, loss of licence insurance, death in service insurance, sim refreshers etc. Oh, and paid leave too!

[Roidelstein]

cargoboy - who's that?

[Roidelstein]

He doesn't say it's a start-up, just expanding.

[Whippersnapper]

Don't post erroneous info, Outofsync, Ezy rosters are legally 7/2 and there's plenty of night flying. I have also heard (unsubstantiated, but true to form) that they are carrying out disciplinary action on a crew for not going into dicretion (done before, though I admit there may be more to it than meets the eye).

[Skylion]

Going back to AfricanSkies comments, applauded by some, I find his anti LCCs rant extraordinary. The world is moving on and flying is not and never again should be the preserve of the rich. The low costs have provided air travel for a much broader population,- excellent thing. They have also produced thousands of genuinely new jobs in an industry which has for years seriously needed to examine its costs, ways of working, approach to the market etc. They have also created tourism booms and their attendant jobs in cities which could never have dreamed of them a decade ago.They have forced the pace of long overdue change and ,while they may have undermined some very cosy arrangements,- which the customers paid for,- they have opened far more opportunities for staff and customers than they have undermined or closed. As employers in many respects they are good,- and in some very good,- and still make a life in aviation far more interesting, varied and rewarding than most other businesses. There is no such thing as the perfect job or the perfect company,- anywhere.

[FlyingIrishman]

While the low fares boom has certainly shaken up the industry, and in the process undoubtedly upset the senior captains in traditional airlines, it has presented many job opportunities and been beneficial to the industry as a whole.

Ryanair up until about 6 months ago was a very decent company to work for, offering a very good all round package and rewarding hard work very well. As this has package has been dismantled and terms & conditions effectively ripped to pieces, the package is now no longer very good, just simply average. Conditions have gone downhill as extensively discussed as well as the pilot body being subject to bullying from senior management.

Of course there is no such thing as the perfect company but all we are asking for in Ryanair is to be treated with the respect we deserve and that has been shown up until 6 months ago.

[clohessy the claw]

we must be working for two different companies,ryanair was never a good company to work for.just ask mr. duffy in dublin.you guys forget so easily,it is no wonder that in another 6 months we won't even realise that we are being screwed and we will line up for the next shafting.please get real!

i would like to know,now that there is no pension,where did our previous contributions go?

[chikenscanfly]

The truth in black and white, as we always knew it was, now confirmed by the ITF themselves.

http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/news/current_situation.htm


(extract...)

Pilots

“All I ask for is fair conditions and respect for the fact I’m a skilled individual and contribute hugely to their success and in return I get nothing.”
- Ryanair trainee pilot.

Generally speaking pilots are amongst the better paid personnel of Ryanair and we have a number of messages from pilots on our website saying they are happy with the job and work conditions. But we also have a number of messages from pilots who are clearly not happy with their working conditions and refer to the intimidation they have been subjected to if they join their respective unions. So there is obviously some disparity here.

Clearly some pilots are paid at the top of the salary scale whilst others are experiencing very different conditions. For trainee pilots their experience is very different. It has been reported to us that they have to pay for their own training which is a huge cost – as much as £60,000 in fees and no salary from Ryanair for the initial period of flying. Flying for shorter hours is not an option either so they are faced with the stressful combination of high debts and working long hours in order to hopefully qualify at some point in the future for a high salary, which is not guaranteed.

Average pay of course is not a good indicator of real pay rates. Sector pay in Ryanair makes up more than 50% of salary which means that pilots can fly up to 40% more hours than their major airline counterparts in order to take home the same pay packet. (Abn Amro report)

As one French pilot with a European major airline told us, “I guess that the majority of Ryanair Flight Crew would appreciate working for a major, but the contrary is not true!”.

...then read the items listed about cabin crew and ground handling crews...

...then read the items listed about cabin crew and ground handling crews...

[SpectreLover]

Mindthegap your posts are not right.

The pay for a FO in Ryanair is 65 minus 5 = 60 EUR on homebase and 65 - 5 + 20 = 80 on outbase for new (contract) pilots.

When you calculate pay please remember to deduct for spendings on expensive hotels all over Europe, transportation and own sponsored perdiems and SIM/Uniform.

Whats left is NOT A GOOD DEAL.

Actually in many countried its illegal to pay an employee this way. Go add on top of pay to make the employee pay for the airlines expenses such as the employee's hotel, transportation, perdiems etc.

Many IRS in Europe will NOT give a taxcut for the hotels etc. and will consider these 20 EUR an hour being pay, hence taxing it!

Ex.

If you work in an office and your boss gives you an extra 1000 EUR a month to pay for your use of telephone, buy IT equipment etc. etc. - you will be taxed of this add on!

The legal way is that the employer pays for this, and just pay the employee his/hers salary.

The reason they do it this way in Ryanair is that the 20 EUR per block hour is not enough to pay for a decent hotel, taxi and perdiems for the employee on outbases. So they give you a lousy 20 and make you pay your on your own. You end up sleeping in a car, toilet or at a 80 year old lady in Milan, taking the bus or hiking to work, grabbing a burger on the way - just to save your money. If you really want to feel good, you might go ahead and spend money on a real bed/breakfast... But you would never go to a real hotel where you could have a respectable stay.

WHAT A LOUSY DEAL!

[Shaka Zulu]

@ Whippersnapper

No one flies 7/2 for easyJet. We are trialling 5-2 5-4 in LTN en EDI now and it seems to be going quite well. A vote will be made the beginning of next year. Some bumps still need to be sorted out but there is good hope they will do.
What exactly do you call night flying?
There was a night Athens at LTN but that one is going. Latest finish 00.40Z. (LTN base) is not too bad, especially with the new roster (it works out to be almost 5 days off!).

One more thing: no disciplinary action taken. The guy was genuinely fatigued from more reasons than just refusing to go into discretion. They let him fly the 3rd sector to an outstation and than swapped crews with guys positioning. Not ideal, he DOESN'T regret it. Just a Safe Operator! Too tired, don't fly!
Happens in any other company. We almost have no positioning at all.

At any rate it's sidetracking the thread (not your fault matey)
Just wanted to respond before guys/girls start thinking the wrong thing. It's genuinely starting to become a nice lowco to fly for. I def enjoy my flying now.

(This was not having a go ;)
Stay Safe,
SZ

[Stan Woolley]

Shaka

So the guys flying six/three no longer have early starts/late finishes - is that right?

Yes I can see it was very good of easyjet to let the genuinely fatigued pilot'....fly the 3rd sector to an outstation' then swap with the crew who were dicked about by having to position out then operate back - just to make sure everybody gets equally shafted and helping to 'discourage' people from refusing discretion.

Yep they're still a great bunch to work for- really regret leaving- NOT! :yuk:

[Shaka Zulu]

Mate I'm one of them that does early starts and late finishes.
The thing I'm hinting at though is that with the new system the number of 4 sector days has significantly been reduced. Roster stability has gone up dramatically and a good 5 working days on 3 days off has been devised. Potentially giving 2.5, sometimes 4.5 days.

Look all guys weren't happy with the situation, but you should know better. If you are too tired to fly the 4th leg then don't fly!
Okay the result wasn't too pretty, but this is what I call professionalism...
I don't know your personal situation and the Carmen rostering etc we had was awful but things seem to be getting better slowly....
I was the same as you and on the brink of leaving for greener pastures, but I can't deny the improvement

[bluepilot]

back to the subject!

what has happened to the BUZZ pilots? were they all given new contracts with FR or are some going and some not?

[Flughaven]

Dont know about them all, but have just seen one Capt yesterday flying first day on line after line training.

[Hold_the_front_page]

All of the Buzz Stansted pilots were offered contracts with a company called Crewlink (based in Dublin and up to now providing cabin crew to its main client Ryanair - draw your own conclusions) and that we would be contracted to provide our services to Ryanair.These are 3 year fixed term contracts, and the Buzz pilots were told that there would be no permanent jobs with Ryanair itself until the BALPA/TUPE issues had been resolved later on in the year. It is Ryanair's intention (so they say) to offer us all permanent positions once this has happened, although who knows what will happen if BALPA recognition becomes a reality. Approx 15 pilots declined the contract, and are due to leave when Buzz is wound up on 31st October. The conversion courses are being started from Monday onwards, so expect to see a few more new faces in the STN crewroom in the weeks and months to come.

As an aside, when Ryanair bought Buzz back in April 2003, we were all put on new contracts with the Ryanair standard 12 months probation period. Our new contracts specify another 12 months probation, and obviously if and when we get a full Ryanair contract then that will stipulate another 12 month probation period. This means that apart from a short period of approximately 5 months earlier this year,that we will have been on probation (and therefore the company can get rid of us for just about any reason by giving us a week's notice) from April 2003 until sometime in 2006 !!!
:(

[sky9]

Or you could just leave and join an airline that treats you in a proper manner. The choice is yours.

[chikenscanfly]

Isn't it a shame though that we should be forced to look for another employer and jeopardize part of our careers at no fault of our own though?

[sky9]

"Chickens" You have to decide if you are "Battery" or "Free Range". The problem with battery hens is that they have a habit of pecking each other so they have to be de-beaked. I could take the analogy further.

[Flughaven]

Absolutley fabulous man MOL ........ NOT!!!!

All this carry on here by him, jepordising your livelyhoods just so you dont get to vote for the upcoming Union recognition!! Crazy!:(

[chikenscanfly]

Sky9

You are right...there are plenty of others around working their way up the pecking order...and there are plenty who rather not join in

But facing this intimidation could mean becoming free-range...not de-beaked...

And if it's gonna end up that way eitherway...apparently...then why not take a stand when we have nothing to loose?