Max hours a month question

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ummm, some people say to me that you can only instruct 100hrs in 28 days. Other people say that it doesn't apply until you are flying heavy (non-training) aircraft. I've seen two bits of CAA paper which seem to contradict each other. Whats the real deal chaps? Thanks in advance, WWW

[Meeb]

This is an interesting question WWW, mainly coz I am also unsure! When I instructed there were no restrictions, and instructing on the RAF scholarship thing, good job too! ;) Even as a 509 instructor we had no duty/flying limitations, and I am pretty sure it is still the same, maybe JAA will change things though. In reality, to get anywhere near the max is going some. As a 509 instructor I did 80hrs a month for 3 months in a row, (good bonus!) but that was 6 days a week from dawn until dusk, with all the pre flight and post flight briefings, very tiring. In the mean time, fill your boots mate, no one is going to stop you at the moment!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yeah, actually I want someone to stop me. I'm just under the 100hr a month mark at the moment and I don't want to go over yet the school owner is unsympathetic to fellow instructors who are unhappy at doing 110hrs a month. I'm not going to do it because I am getting tired and that is just too dangerous. WWW

[IMMELMAN]

as far as I know, no limit on instructing but the moment you do a PF, the rest of your instructing that day is governed by FTLs.,but how that works out in respect of 100 and 900pa.,not sure - I think the only protection we have is in a duty day - if you do an AOC flight rest of day is governed

[IMMELMAN]

as far as I know, no limit on instructing but the moment you do a PF, the rest of your instructing that day is governed by FTLs.,but how that works out in respect of 100 and 900pa.,not sure - I think the only protection we have is in a duty day - if you do an AOC flight rest of day is governed

[IMMELMAN]

MY previous reply lost? As far as I know, no limit on instructing but as soon as you do a PF or AOC flight all remaining flights that day are covered by FTLS per your AOC ops manual - but that does not accumulate or affect 100 and 900 pa - just that day so always start off with a PF

[Cessnaboy]

WWW,
Where are you working to be doing 100+ p/mth?

What are the new rules if any re: AFI, QFI ratings under the new JAR.

I am NZ C-Category Instructor with right to abode in UK and am considering the UK scene but once again the money grabbers want what they can get so unlikely. In NZ, a good, busy instructor at NZ busiest GA airfield (Ardmore) will do on average 40 p/mth some get up to 60+, but 100!!! unheard of!!

[mayday]

Cessnaboy

Dont know if this helps but if you are already a CAA AFI you can upgrade to JAR FI (sort of equivalent to QFI but without the ability to teach IMC)with 100hours instructional (excluding trials) plus 25 solo flights briefed and a fee of £55. Cant help with details on converting a foriegn instructor qualification but a JAR FI course will cost about £4K.

100 hours a month during the summer is perfectly possible due to more daylight, I did 90 last month but that compares with just 35-40 during Dec,Jan and Feb. This however is at a controlled field with rationed slot times even for GA traffic, a club strip would afford even more work.

[capt beeky]

It doesn't seem to make much difference when the max hours are laid down.

I'm told that someone at the major 509 school has made an observation on the contradictions between the companies policy ( 8/9hr day normal, mandatory crew rest after long shifts, 100hrs in 28 days etc)and the 12/15 hour days routinely done and the many instructors who regularly work 6/7 day weeks to achieve the dreaded bonus. My nephew say that with the hot weather students on long xc are already commenting on the 'eyelid inspection' going on in the air. Supposedly these long hours are actively encouraged despite the direct breach of the ops manual.

The serious questions raised are insurance and legal liability. What will YOU tell the coroner or worse.

I imagine the brave/foolish idiot who raised this problem will soon be invited to depart to new pastures - no connection of course.

The chairman of the instructors union has already been told by management that "continuing to be involved with the *** *** *** Association will harm his career".

[Checkboard]

Does this mean that the UK doesn't have mandatory flight & duty time limits for commercial work, or that it does have them, but they don't apply to instructing?

Does this have something to do with the "PPLs instructing PPLs" thing that you do in the UK?

[capt beeky]

Checkboard,
Mandatory rules do apply.... but not to instructors... unless you do a trial lesson (perhaps). The issue is clouded. Big schools lay down a policy, usually the same as the legal limit for commercial pilots, but I think this is just to bluff sponsors,students and of course the CAA. Its worse with small outfits, but its a while since I've worked with either. My aquaintance who works for the very big school in UK has worked really stupid duty hours but flown relatively little due to lack of a/c or students. He/She is paid less than I was 10 years ago for the same job.

[This message has been edited by capt beeky (edited 18 June 1999).]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well my situation is this. I have A/c and students to fly about 120hrs in the last 28 days. My school needs me to fly these hours. I have flown several days at 7.5 or 8 hours in a day. I've decided that this is not sensible and thus I am going to limit myself to 100hrs in 28 days and unless there is a very good reason I'm not going to fly more than 6 hours a day. The law is vague and the rules unclear.

The structure of employment whereby I am paid by the hour and am motivated to log as many hours as possible positively encourages me to fly reagardless of fatigue considerations. This seems rather silly.

At the end of the day I cannot be sat in an airline interview and seriously talk about being safety concious etc if my logbook is screaming evidence of flying when totally knackered. Also there's no-one watching my back in the cockpit and I've started to notice little mistakes creeping in like forgetting to put the fuel pump on when teching PFL's (yesterday morning at the end of a v.busy week) and that is just not on.

Happy and safe flying everyone, WWW

[Luftwaffle]

For Canadian flight instructors, there are absolutely no limits on duty periods, no requirements for sufficient time being allowed for sleep or meals, and not enough pay to make it easy to resist any request for dual instruction. Yikes.

[capt beeky]

WWW
Congrats on your sensible attitude. Your employer ought to be happy with it, but in my experience they rarely pass more than lip service to flightsafety. servicability, or fatigue. I once saw a Director of a medium size training organisation up north going around the fleet replacing the landing lights with blown ones "as an economy measure". He felt our practice of using them for conspicuity was wastefull. The same guy slept on most of his dual xc with students, even once on a NFT.

[Cessnaboy]

Mayday,

Thanks for your info.

$GBP4000!! for an AFI rating!!!! At NZ's exchange rate thats $NZD12000!! Twice as much as it costs in NZ. If anyone knows whats involved in converting foriegn instructors ratings I would appreciate it.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Landing Lights? What are they? Oh! I remember we used to have those in the RAF - and things called strobe lights if I remember correctly. Mind you I still miss flying with a parachute. WWW

[Vigilant Driver]

WWW,

Come back and join the mob! All the landing lights work and even the tail strobe is in good working order.

Remember the days when the rules were:
6 hours per day
20 hours per week
60 hours per month
and into the Mess for tiffin!

But seriously, take care as I know how knackered I feel after a long day instructing.

Vigi

[Bendo]

WWW, you're spot on with limiting your hours - You don't need to be told about the safety considerations or the fact that your students aren'tgettingtheir money's worth.

Here in Oz you're only limited to 6 hrs instruction per day - beyond that, standard flight duty time limitations apply. Lately during an AOC application process CASA Ops Inspectors were telling me that FDT's apply to Prvate Pilots too!
Go Figure...

[Grandad Flyer]

I believe the CAA rules are that the maximum "commercial" hours you may do per month is 100. As an airline pilot, I know that we are not allowed to do any flying outside of work, unless it is private flying on a light aircraft (unless we get written agreement and inform the company of all additional hours).

[matthew]

Just to set the cat amongst the pigeons, I, along with nearly all of my colleagues used to fly well over a hundred hours per month on a regular basis during the summer. This was positively encouraged by the Boss, along with little or no time off.......One summer not too long a go, I went three and a half months without a day off and on one of those months logged 120 hrs....
This as has been mentioned is not exactly ideal, however, as far as I'm aware there are no CAA rules against it as the CAA have had my logbook on several occasions and never raised it with me...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

But has it/will it ever come up in interview with some juicy airline job...?

"Well Yes - safety is my first priority and I have never had an accident".

"Hmmm - so how do think it was particularly safe to fly 120hrs a month for 3 months running?"

"Errrr, flounder flounder, squirm make embarrassed noises etc"

WWW

[matthew]

www.
we live in the real world..
Either work or get replaced with those who will,.

Put yourself in my shoes. First ever flying job, trying to get the hours for the golden handshake into the airlines. I didn't have the luxury of people queuing up to give me a job with 250 hrs..
I'm not bragging or saying it's right, I was keeping my job..

try and be less naive
PS .I have an Airline job

[This message has been edited by matthew (edited 30 June 1999).]

[flysundun]

matthew, from what I understand, Mr Welshman doesn't need to put up with the external pressure of having to do extra hours as he could probably work at several schools because he has built himself a reputation for being a thoroughly professional bloke. I see this thread as being evidence of this. Not only is his safety and that of the pupil's put in jeopardy if he is tired but also the quality of the teaching.

I wonder whether you gave value for money to your pupils during that period you crammed 360 hours in over 3 months, or were you just too tired to explain the same thing to a struggling pupil for the third time!!?? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif

And I think you'll find that WWW is far from naive.... :)


[This message has been edited by flysundun (edited 30 June 1999).]

[matthew]

Point number 1. If you would care to read my note, I did not fly 360 hrs in three months, I said on one of those months I flew 120 hrs.

2. I raised the point to explain that in my experience, I had flown over 100 hrs in a month with no comment from the CAA, therefore answering the original question.

3. I also said that it was, in my opinion, far from ideal the situation some instructors are put in with regard to overworking. I did not raise the point as a boast, quite the opposite in fact, I agree with everything mentioned so far, in that there is the liklehood, over a period of time, that flight safety and standard of instruction may be degraded.

4. Please refrain from offering anymore of your unwanted opinions on my own past as an instructor, and concentrate on the original question, the point of which I have already said I agree with.

NB. We would all love to live in the idealistic world to which you seem to be refering, however, we don't.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Right no hang on lets all keep our knickers untwisted here.

Thanks for coming to my defence flysundun.

Matthew - I hear what you are saying and agree with you in general. However I believe that times are changing due t the now cronic shortage of instructors (today a colleague announced he's virtually got into OATS for example). If I, and my fellow instructors draw a line in the sand to management then they are in no position to argue. In the past we probably would have been booted out the door but with nobody applying to take our place that isn't an option any more.

Now - about getting a J31 job at Manchester... ;) WWW

ps did 7.7hrs today in a Traumahawk - tomorrow is going to be a very quiet day, zzz...

[matthew]

Point taken as well WWW... (http://WWW...)

On a happier note
If and when you gain the experience required, if you don't already have it,and you do decide to look into flying an icecream 41, there is a good chance of recruitment in BRAL. The man to speak to is Capt Dennis Kilgarif, J41 Fleet Manager
,(01624) 826 000 .

Happy camping,
cheers

Matt........

[Grandad Flyer]

I would suggest being very careful if you are doing in excess of the legal hours as stipulated by the CAA. It is all fine to sweep it under the wing until an "incident" or worse occurs. The CAA look at your log book and bingo, find that you have gone over your maximum hours. It is ALWAYS the pilots responsibility to fly within the legal requirements. I believe saying you did not know about them is no defence in law. Even though I work for an airline and they keep track of our hours worked and flown, there are cock ups on a regular occurence, causing the possibility of flying/ working illegally. You cannot tell the CAA that it was their responsibility. It is yours and yours only...so all I will say is be very careful. The CAA have queried hours in the past, and I believe someone lost their licence over it - is it worth the risk? Maybe.