MATZ transit

[bellend]

Sorry for what may appear a dumb question! when given a MATZ clearence am i expected to contact the tower for the ATZ or would this be included in the clearence,I asked an FI and he said he thinks it does. I have been through a MATZ once (Bensons) and that was only the stub

cheers

[ThePirateKing]

Call the Zone controller if there is one (or App or Tower in that order, if not) and obey their instructions. (Silly arguments about receiving instructions/recommendations/polite requests/suggestions from ATC, and who is actually in command of the aircraft notwithstanding).

They will undoubtedly be very clear about whether the wish you to contact any other authority. It's never happened to me though.

Rgds,

TPK:ok:

[skydriller]

Hi,
Its been a couple of years since I have flown in the UK but Im pretty sure you dont actually need clearance to fly through a MATZ, though it is in your interest to talk to whoever is there and asking is the safest airmanship wise incase there is a flight of mil jets screaming around.... I specificly remember my UK instructor telling me this....You do need to ask to transit an ATZ though....

Sure someone more knowledgable will correct me if Im wrong though,

Regards, SD.

[Northern Highflyer]

You do need permission to enter a MATZ. If you are receiving a LARS you can often ask them.

For example, Waddington controls entry and transit of MATZ for about 5 bases in Lincolnshire, including Scampton, which may be out of bounds depending on what The Reds are doing. They are usually very accommodating at weekends but I suspect it would be harder during the week when they are active.

[Whirlybird]

It is actually not a legal requirement to ask for transit through a MATZ, but in most cases you'd be extremely stupid not to. You do, however, have to ask to enter the ATZ. In practise, you make one radio call, then follow instructions.

[DRJAD]

To be utterly pedantic, as is my wont, of course, whilst agreeing wholeheartedly with Whirly, et al., the Scampton MATZ differs from others in that it is coterminous, below 3000 ft QFE, with a restricted area, though that excludes its stub, whilst including part of Waddington's MATZ and stub.

[Chilli Monster]

when given a MATZ clearence am i expected to contact the tower for the ATZ
Initial Contact wil be on the zone/LARS frequency (if published) or approach (if either of the two preceeding one's aren't). The clearance you will get (pedantry aside) will be for the whole MATZ/ATZ complex - no need to speak to tower.
I asked an FI and he said he thinks it does
THINKS! Am I the only one here who finds that a little bit scary :confused:

[ShyTorque]

ChilliMonster,

Regarding your last question. No, you're not the only one!:uhoh:

[foxmoth]

DRJAD
If you are being pedantic then the point is NOT that you need to get permision for passing through this particular MATZ, but that there MAY be OTHER rules that mean you DO need to contact them.:uhoh:

[Pronto]

The procedure for MATZ penetration is published in the AIP (ENR 2-2-2-3-1. The hyperlink is here: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2020203.PDF ) * In brief, observance of a MATZ by civil aircraft is not mandatory. However, observance of any associated ATZ is. As is also mentioned in other posts on this thread, there are other good (both legal and simple good common sense) reasons why transiting traffic must speak to the MATZ controller.

Any instructor who is not aware of the requirements regarding MATZ should rectify the gap in their knowledge, pronto!

P

*In order to be able to view the AIP you must be a registered user. Registration is free.

[Megaton]

Point of order regarding Scampton. Anyone who thinks that Scampton R313 is inactive at weekends needs re-educating. Reds frequently return at weekends and, when they do, will often either loop or spaghetti break to land. In either case, that's a lot of metal travelling at high speed!

[FlyFreeWbe]

Methinks tis always a good idea to talk to MATZ controllers. they give a lot of useful info and if you tell them your route, they often contact any other matz along the way and pass your details for you. You then just have to change freq, say "hello", and squawk **** and your sorted.
Mind you, I have heard about how you don't need to contact them if you don't want, but if your flying 'cross a CMATZ like Lankenheath, who would'nt!? Nevermind if tis legal, tis common sense, and saves you having any mild heart attacks or strokes :p

FFW

[Flyin'Dutch']

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I asked an FI and he said he thinks it does
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THINKS! Am I the only one here who finds that a little bit scary


Au contraire mon ami,

It once more confirms what I have said on here a few times. The vast majority of PPL instructors are very good at teaching their pupils the handlings skills.

They lack experience and knowledge to instill the basic airmanship skills required for any meaningful away from teh airport flying.

It is my conviction that there fore a lot of fresh PPLs hang their wings up in the 2 years following their skills test. Out of desillusion that the PPL syllabus did not train them to do that bit of flying which they thought it was going to bring them: Going places.

FD

[S-Works]

thats because a number of FI's are low hours fATPL holders barely out of there own basic training and using teaching as a way of hours building.

[slim_slag]

Very true, FD, if you look at a freshly minted PPL he has really only demontrated he is barely safe enough to carry passengers in the local area. And even in the States where it's a lot easier to go places, I'd say that over 50% of new instructors have only done the minimum cross country times for certificate issuance. Most of them are just bumps on logs themselves.

But that is why they call it alicence to learn. Best thing for a new ppl to do is to avoid instructors for a while and fly with other more experienced pilots who are just flying around for the hell of it. Expand your horizons one step at a time, hang out at the airport and make friends. The responsibility to go places rests with the new PPL and not the instructor.....

[DRJAD]

Foxmoth,

At the risk of being pedantic once more I did not comment upon whether a pilot should speak to the MATZ controlling authority when near R313, though my personal opinion is that it is well to do so, even if not absolutely forced by regulation so to do.

My post was intended to emphasize the practical point that not all MATZes are identical in their regulatory requirements.

As always, pedantry aside, I am very willing to defer to those who possess that superfluity of experience and knowledge to enable them to express valid opinions as the practicality of the various options for managing a flight in these areas. It is from such debates that I am enabled to learn.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Slim,

I could, of course, not agree more with you.

The entire training culture in the UK is very much skewed towards churning out PPLs who are excellent in circuit bashing.

Some form of mentoring of newly qualified PPLs by folks be it instructors with the necessary experience or PPLs would is great but there is little opportunity to do so as schools (most clubs are schools really) do not cater for this for a number of reasons.

BBs like Proon and Flyer are excellent in that they are a good forum to ask questions and Fly Outs get regularly organised by folks on these shores.

FD

[Final 3 Greens]

bose-xthats because a number of FI's are low hours fATPL holders barely out of there own basic training Ican see the point you are trying to make, but I would expect someone with a fAPTL to know the position regarding MATZs with certainty ;)

[S-Works]

kind of makes my point doesnt it???

:p

[Final 3 Greens]

It certainly makes one wonder about the rigour of their aviation education efforts!

[mad_jock]

I like it bose-x and FD :D


More than an element of truth in what you say.

And for the above. If the FI has done there PPL in Florida there hour building in Florida and their CPL over there. IR in UK you won't go near one. The first time they have heard f one is there RT test and then next time will be a lesson.

Anyway as the goverment seems determined that they are going to shut down the RAF there should me alot fewer MATZ in the future. Unfortunatly this will mean alot few LARS as well.

MJ

[M609]

One small point from a controller: Get your air force proper ATC like the rest of the wold, and get one set of rules for everybody.
Works everywhere else.

Would make things a lot easier, don't you think? :E

[mad_jock]

Never going to happen M8.

And they still think that the civi controllers don't know what they are doing :D. Differnet rules, different RT and they actually think that we have to do what they tell us to do in Class G :D

MJ

[Whirlybird]

If the FI has done there PPL in Florida there hour building in Florida and their CPL over there. IR in UK you won't go near one. The first time they have heard f one is there RT test and then next time will be a lesson


Good point MJ. And not just the US trained people. A chap I knew came over from New Zealand and did his CPL here, and said he'd never been through a MATZ. And if he does an FI course, he'll be too busy learning how to teach the basics to worry about that.

FIs are expected to know everything. They don't. They should know the basics. But what is considered basic depends on where you trained and what sort of flying you do. However, they should at least know where to direct the student for the information. "I don't know" or "I think it's..." are not good enough. "I'm not sure, but go get a copy of LASORS from over there and we'll look it up together", not only gives the student the answer, but teaches him/her how to find his own answers. It also shows them that to be a pilot you don't need a superhuman memory, just know where to find the information you need.

[englishal]

A chap I knew came over from New Zealand and did his CPL here, and said he'd never been through a MATZ
That can be rectified by one simple flight with an Instructor. If I were an instructor, I'd want to know everything that may get asked / expected of me................But I think that some are too eager to operate the landing gear of a 737, earning the big bucks, and probably don't really give two hoots about "flying"...just an observation I've made over the past 4 years.

Anyway, you can always go above the MATZ.....

EA ;)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Anyway, you can always go above the MATZ..... Not round here, not this year - you can sometimes go above the MATZ, and even then you can sometimes be forced down into it by a low lump of cloud (Marham is very impressive from overhead).

[bellend]

Guys thanks for all the replies advice,Yes the real reason i posted this was the FIs advice that didnt seem to answer my question!!!I am planning a flight up to norfolk and because of the military bases I wanted to be 100% sure as to what the transit clearence gave me

cheers

[slim_slag]

Oh, here we go again. A 'My training is better than your training' thread.

I could make a fancy JAA instructor look pretty stupid in US airspace if I was nasty enough to do so, and I am sure a JAA person could make a fancy FAA instructor look pretty stupid in Euroland too. At least the FAA instructor is almost guaranteed to have an IR. If you ever get to listen to Approach control at a US Class B airport you will hear JAA trained Virgin and JAA trained British Airways pilots making radio transmissions which are as sloppy (and safe) as their American colleagues.

Just be aware that a 250 hour instructor in both regimes really is a kid and has a lot to learn, and by the time he reaches 1250 hours, he still has a lot to learn too! Whirlybird has it right, a good instructor will get the book out and look it up with the student, no harm in admitting you don't know everything and no shame in asking for help either., no matter how many hours you have.

[tmmorris]

Bellend - if you mean Lakenheath/Mildenhall be aware that the controllers are American. Although they attempt to follow standard UK MATZ/radar service procedures they sometimes lapse into the American way of doing things.

One oddity: they always give you a squawk BEFORE asking you to mess your passage...

Tim

[Chilli Monster]

One oddity: they always give you a squawk BEFORE asking you to mess your passage...
Not that odd - I often do the same (or maybe I'm odd too ;) )

[Flyin'Dutch']

or maybe I'm odd too )

Yup you are! But nice with it!

Excellent service at Filton.

FD

(PS This is not to infer that the Lakenheath lot are not nice but I don't know them as well as Chili!)

[Pie Man]

Ham

Point of order regarding Scampton. Anyone who thinks that Scampton R313 is inactive at weekends

Although the Reds may be operating in EG R313 at week-ends it is only officially active if a NOTAM is sent to that effect. Operating hours EG R313 Mon-Fri 0830-1700 (times local).

Regards

Pie

[Megaton]

Pieman,

I assume from your (presumably mil?) ATCO background that you are technicaly correct but whether it's "officially" active or not, butting heads with 10 or 11 jets will definitely spoil your day!

HP

[bellend]

tim thanks for the advice,I will brush up on my american!! geez beloney aloominum etc hahaha

cheers

[pulse1]

A few weeks ago I was approaching Benson MATZ on a Sunday. I made the standard three calls for MATZ transit with no reply so assumed that they were closed.

A few minutes later, on the same frequency, I heard what sounded like an exec. jet being cleared onto the ILS at Benson.

I called again and still got no answer and began to suspect my radio. Tried on Box 2 and still got no response. The radios worked perfectly for the rest of the day.

It seems very odd to me that they showed no interest in what I was doing when they were expecting IFR traffic.

I actually played safe and climbed above the MATZ although it involved going a lot higher to remain clear of cloud.

[bookworm]

Any chance you just heard the airborne part of an exchange with Belfast Aldergrove on 120.9?

[pulse1]

Bookworm,

An interesting thought but we were hearing the Controller loud and clear.