View Full Version : Americans add more petty and useless regulations.

30th Jun 2004, 15:37
The United States authorities are implementing a process which requires the passport and visa information of all crew likely to operate to, from or over the United States to be provided to them in a 'Master Crew List' (MCL) This information must not be changed within 48 hours of operating to the USA.

So - no crew operate from standby , no flexibility for the company.

How dare they .
Who the heck do they think they are?

On a similar vein....
I pray that we start treating American visitors to Europe with as much disdain as they show our tourists.
( My wife's sister and young lad queued for 120 min's to pass immigration - after a 9 hr flight) . Who needs that?

30th Jun 2004, 15:40
So if the Skipper goes sick a day before the flight gets cancelled, right?

Even the Yanks can't be that stupid!?

30th Jun 2004, 15:44
Like a bet? I used to support the USA , having been over there around 35 times but now I'm beginning to think a little deeper . From what I have read on these hallowed pages and in the press (!) and seen from Iraq , I wonder just what we are dealing with here .

30th Jun 2004, 16:03
IMHO visitors to the US are paying the price for the inability of the intelligence agencies to detect the 9/11 conspiracy in advance of the awful events of that day. Also, the TSA (Transportation Security Administration) is getting ever more powers, and now has the power of license suspension with the only right of appeal back to the TSA (according to AOPA US). Sad to see all this happening to a country I always used to enjoy visiting.

Bob Upndown
30th Jun 2004, 16:21
TSA? T*ssers, S*itheads and A*seholes. And that's just the management.

Every time I read the next ridiculous edict from the Land of the Free :yuk: :yuk: I just laugh and thank the lord that my remit no longer involves dealing with those ignorant idiots any more.

Do they REALLY think that there is a credible threat from the crew?

If you can, vote with your feet. Don't go there, don't spend your money there, perhaps (or perhaps not) they might get the message.

BTW, Shuttleworth, good call, though you can bet your life that they'll be the first to kick up. Recently had to go through the new(ish) security check to get the gate 9 at LHR T3 (x-ray and arch + search) from the lounge areas. Couple in front of me complaining LOUDLY that they shouldn't need to be subjected to another search as they'd already been searched before. Guess what nationality - yup, you've got it, our Pilgrim friends:hmm:

Half a Mexican
30th Jun 2004, 16:24
Hi Shuttleworth,

You imply that the MCL will be flight specific but you donít state whether this is the case. It makes a big difference.

If not, then under the proposed system is it not possible just to add all flight crew to the MCL and as long as their Passport and Visa information does not change within 48 hours of operating in or over the US everything will be legal?


30th Jun 2004, 17:16
Life is just so unfair...

Please, stay home, you'd be much happier.

30th Jun 2004, 17:28
So basically, you are against providing of information in a timely manner to the American Authorities? I do not agree with the combining of Iraq, and the inablitiy for the CIA to detect 9/11 with a regulation regarding some advance notice of Who's flying the plane on a MCL. GROW UP!. Your supposed to be "professional's." Start acting like it. Calling Americans T*ssers, S*itheads and A*seholes and then spitting on the freedom that you take for granted day in and day out is sad. Very very sad. I would expect more from "proffessionals."

30th Jun 2004, 17:31
What can I say? I have just been back to the United States of America for the first time in three years and, despite all the horror stories, I found all of the staff (I asume they were employed by TSA) at IAD were very courteous and even had a big sense of humour.

Inbound formalities were at a minimum as far as time-wasting was concerned. It took less than 45 minutes to get from the aircraft to the hire-car.

30th Jun 2004, 17:43
from Kala

Also, the TSA (Transportation Security Administration) is getting ever more powers, and now has the power of license suspension with the only right of appeal back to the TSA

Actually that is way out of date. The threat of that was removed a couple of weeks ago.

Most of the tripe you read about America here on PPRUNE turns out to be untrue if you go and try it for yourself. But don't let facts get in the way of good old fashioned america bashing. Kinda reminds me of an Aesop's fable....


30th Jun 2004, 18:00
"American bashing"

Are you suggesting sir that i am either vietnamese or iraqi . Both quite accomplished american bashers.:}

Maybe i should rname my little fella, "GeorgeBush" instead of the bishop.Then i would get double the fun, every bash

Ropey Pilot
30th Jun 2004, 18:01

I take it you don't have to go through US immigration. (The USofA is a country nearly entirely populated by immigrants anyway).

I think most of the problem is that US immigration is getting rediculous. My wife was coming to join me in Belize and they wouldn't let her catch her connecting flight in Miami because she had no return ticket! She was coming for 9 months from the UK to a commonweatlth country and not leaving the airport terminal - what business is it of the US government if she is using one way tickets since we didn't know my end of tour date (I was there with the British Army).

And lordy, try and get in on a Visa to learn to fly! I know that it is sensitive, but I was a British Army helicopter pilot, having spent time with US forces in Kosovo, Macedonia and Bosnia. was it really necessary to make me sit in a room for 2 hours while they phoned my flight school and asked if they had heard of me?:mad:

Was it Brazil who fingerprinted and photographed the US crew coming in, and look what response they got!

No-one is denying you your right to defend your borders, it just seems that every other country manages to do it without making you jump through hoops for hours.

(Sorry, I know that was slightly off the original topic)

30th Jun 2004, 18:24
Am I missing something?

I have to have a D Visa to operate into USA, so why do they need yet another layer of Bureaucracy? This paranoia in the US is really getting beyond sensible bounds.

I also think that in the interests of fairness the EU should insist on reciprocal Visa requirements for US Crewmembers who operate into Europe.

And, by the way, it is a sign of healthy democracy to criticise, without being accused of being anti-American.
:( :(

30th Jun 2004, 18:28
Too Bad...Maybe you'll just have to stay home and deal with over inflated prices, lousy food, lousy service, congested roads, tiny houses....but extremely "courteous and efficient" immigration and airport service personnel and just watch the miserable tv whilst moaning about how great it is you're not all in the US...Have fun!

30th Jun 2004, 18:40
Reminds me of the opening lines of the movie "Annie Hall" (1977):

There's an old joke. Uh, two elderly women are at a Catskills mountain resort, and one of 'em says: "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible." The other one says, "Yeah, I know, and such small portions."

30th Jun 2004, 18:41

Rather than just whining and showing the usual contempt for any place other than the US, why don't you actually try to justify these stupid rules that are being enforced in the "Land of the Free"?

If these restrictions were imposed on your own US airlines, I'm sure you'd have something to say about it.

30th Jun 2004, 19:03
>>If these restrictions were imposed on your own US airlines, I'm sure you'd have something to say about it.

Perhaps you don't fly much internationally, but in fact these restrictions are imposed on U.S. carriers. And yes we do moan and groan about it a little.

30th Jun 2004, 19:18
longbefore 9/11 I had to get visa's to operate in and out of France.

Just treating the EU as equal states.


30th Jun 2004, 19:53
Wouldn't the airlines just put the backup/stand by pilots info on the list when they submit it to the authority? Otherwise the airline is getting completely screwed over this.

30th Jun 2004, 19:54
Ropey - not off topic - Very good posting.
The American's are causing such hatred it's astonishing.
This is here ... imagine what the feeling is in Karachi, Riyadh or Indonesia!

30th Jun 2004, 20:03
Rather than just whining and showing the usual contempt for any place other than the US, why don't you actually try to justify these stupid rules that are being enforced in the "Land of the Free"?

In light of world events brought about by People other than Americans, I can see a reaction to want to protect their own, If you want to com to the land of the free. Your gonna get checked out. If you don't like those rules. Don't go.

And if other countries want to impose their own, childlike, copycat, were doing it to spite the nose on our face regulations on aircrew and passangers, let them. Until something like sept. 11 happens to them, they will never understand how important it is to know who enters into the country, and for what reason.

30th Jun 2004, 20:16
First off be sure that story is accurate! They change directives so often it is hard to keep up!

Second off, think about what Homeland Security and their task, which is, well, just that. Several VERY high profile US events coming up, and with the picture in my mind's eye of people jumping out of those towers still very clear, I can understand the motivation behind their feelings. While TSA/Homeland Secruity appear autocratic, they also have ears and do listen to airline input.

There is a justifiable fear over rogue crewmembers, including flight attendants, taking over an aircraft.

One day, we will hopefully breath a sigh of relief, but for now the guard is way up.

30th Jun 2004, 20:27
As an American, living in the States, have to agree that Homeland Security and some other agencies are getting a little ridiculous with some of the regulations they are imposing. If they are so worried about immigration, the US goverment should really spend more time making our borders to the south much, much more difficult to get through and much tougher on the illigals that generally come through the south (though I do have several friends from Canada working here that are not strictly legal)...illigals from the south are becoming a major drain on US taxpayers (in California, the taxpayers even pay for illigals to go to school, and subsidise their welfare/health benefits, I think).

Anyway, back on topic, being an American and having lived in the UK for two years I can tell you it is much, much more difficult for an American to simply pick up and go to school or work in Europe than the other way around. Let's be fair here. It is a two way street.

30th Jun 2004, 20:54
The source of the US concern about who is on the flight deck presumably arises from the fact that now the cockpit has been turned into a fortress , where is a terrorist organisation now likely to place its hijacker? Not OUTSIDE the door for sure but INSIDE it. You can therefore understand why they are rather keen to know who is in there.

30th Jun 2004, 20:56
>>The American's are causing such hatred it's astonishing.
This is here ... imagine what the feeling is in Karachi, Riyadh or Indonesia!<<

The Brits aren't causing much of anything here in the U.S.

The usual Yank bashing thread on PPRuNe, ho hum...

30th Jun 2004, 20:58
For years the IRA were funded by Irish Americans and America did next to nothing to help us as our towns, cities and people were bombed. Now that they are the victims of terrorism mainly due to dodgy American foreign policy we are standing by them. I think the so-called special relationship is all one way.:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

30th Jun 2004, 20:59
Poor FakePilot feels the pain. It seems like everytime I mention I enjoy MSFS people have to mention that is related to terrorism and ask me how many buildings I've crashed into. Many of my friends and loved ones are "eastern" in either origin or appearence (lots of people can't tell Hispanic from various "eastern") and I get to hear stories of discrimination. Yeah, 9/11 was bad and warrants action but it's not excuse to do whatever you want in the name of security. It really sucks that 9/11 has become the culturally defining force of the new millenium for Americans.

I use "eastern" in quotes because of I'm not sure of a term to indicate Asia, Middle East etc etc.

You may not like my viewpoint, but you're welcome to stay in my country. :)

30th Jun 2004, 21:24
...sounds like an all too familiar slogan from the 60s we've heard: America, Love It Or Leave It," eh?

That's the typical neoconservative Bush administration mentality; and one of the reasons why the Bushies will be voted out of office in November. :{

30th Jun 2004, 23:55
Sorry, but too many rabid xenophobes responding to the ill thought out comments of the original poster, Shuttleworth. Now, if we are to discuss the theme of the thread which is: Americans add more petty and useless regulations then perhaps it would have been much more sensible, mature and educated to have titled the thread: US authorities add more petty and useless regulations which removes the rather generic term 'Americans' which could just as easily be applied to our own UK authorities in regard to many matters relating to security.

Furthermore, had Shuttleworth made his post less confrontational to the 'Americans' as a whole, perhaps this thread would only have a few replies, remained on track and not excited the colonials into their own patriotic defense of the generic slander of their people. In other words, thanks a lot for starting a flame war thread which I need like a hole in the head. :*

If I may, I will edit Shuttleworths original post to remove the unnecessary slur on the American people as a whole and refine it into a post about simple bureaucratic excess by a government that could be US, UK or whatever your fancy. Then, let's get on debating the issue so that all the hysterical xenophobes can crawl back into their holes until the next poster makes the same stupid mistake and tries to start another flame war between the colonials and the failed empire! :rolleyes:

Please discuss: US authorities add more petty and useless regulations.

The United States authorities are implementing a process which requires the passport and visa information of all crew likely to operate to, from or over the United States to be provided to them in a 'Master Crew List' (MCL) This information must not be changed within 48 hours of operating to the USA.

So - no crew operate from standby , no flexibility for the company.

How dare they.
Who the heck do they think they are?
The bit about his sister is totally irrelevant and has been removed. he can of course post her experiences in the Passengers and SLF forum! :mad:

Next person to use this thread to air their xenophobic, political or cliched rant about anything other than the regulations regarding crew lists will be wasting their time and effort as I will simply delete it. :hmm:

Feather #3
1st Jul 2004, 00:29

In the spirit of the original post, may I please comment that they really need to sit down and work out just who their mates are; before they find they don't have any left! :hmm:

G'day ;)

1st Jul 2004, 00:37
Ill conceived as they are Danny some of the posters do have a point. The overall perception amongst those of us in the industry that operate westbound is that the US authorities are unreasonably harsh. It still seems that much of what we see is window dressing designed to convince the US public that air travel is safe.

We all recall the farcical cancellation of certain flights bound for Washington.

If the resources available to Tom Ridge were directed appropriately I doubt there'd be as many complaints.

1st Jul 2004, 01:35
I don't like the whole american bashing theme that seems to go on here. But i think at the core people feel the same general things about it. I find it fair enough that you need a visa to operate in and out of a certain country. Let's face it some countries have much stricter requirements than the us authorities do. I used to live in the far east, and it was an absolute nightmare sometimes in certain countries (pm me if you're that curious to find out which ones).

But i do fel that the us authorities go OTT on a regular basis. Like someone else posted here, what if a crew member falls ill at very short notice, how is that person going to be replaced. I also feel that tit for tat rules are childish. But i feel most strongly that just because someting horrible (and it was HORRIBLE) happened in one country, that the stable doors should be slammed after the horse has fled.

I lost close friends in a certain terrorist attack on this side of the atlantic. So don't go preaching that we don't know how that feels. We've felt that pain ten times over over many many years. It is particularily painful when that attack was sponsored by supposedly rational businessmen and women who were 'looking out for the intrests' of third cousins ten times removed.

It's fair enough to look out for your own intrests first, but sometimes it is just so extreme that you just have to take the p*ss

flite idol
1st Jul 2004, 02:06
When I go through US immigration, as a crewmember for a US carrier and also as SLF with a UK passport, I have been pulled to one side occasionally for a closer look. Just as I start to get all prickly about it I remember a certain Richard Reid who also had a UK passport along with a bomb in his shoe! If the guy that drove the Egyptian 76 into the drink had waited until post 9/11 would he have chosen another destination? Who knows, but Im sure the folks that rightly or wrongly make these policies look at these things and try to do whats best. Another aviation based attack anywhere and we will all be up a gum tree!

1st Jul 2004, 02:38
Would y'all care to know the facts of the new rule? Individual flight crew lists can be submitted one hour prior to departure. But that takes the fun out of this thread, doesn't it? From an ATA website:

Establishment of a Master Crew List (MCL): This list contains all crewmembers and other company individuals who are allowed to occupy a cockpit jumpseat and/or listed on the crew manifest. ... Changes to the MCL (additions, corrections, deletions) must be received by the TSA no later than 48 hours prior to such individual operating, deadheading or jumpseating an international ATA flight segment. An initial list has been sent and approved by the TSA.

A Flight Crew Manifest will be automatically created and forwarded to the TSA & Customs one hour prior to scheduled departure of an international flight segment. The TSA will match the submitted crew, deadheading and jumpseater information to the Master Crew List. If there is a discrepancy between what is on file (MCL) and the Flight Crew Manifest, a TSA agent will utilize the APIS/TSA hotline and advise the Crew Coordinator of the issue. The Crew Coordinator must then assist the TSA agent in procuring the necessary information. If the agent is not satisfied with the information provided, the Coordinator must advise the SOC Manager of the potential delay of the flight due to removal of an operating crewmember.

1st Jul 2004, 03:17
Apparently, our European breathren are upset that they can't pull Joe Shmoe off the street and with one hour's training make him an employee of the airline and a captain.

Boy, regulations must be really lax over in Europe. Here in America it takes atleast 6 weeks or so to get someone on the line as a pilot. Amazing that they can do it in less than 48 hours.

With training standards like that we really should think of banning all European airlines from American skies. Can't possibly be safe.


1st Jul 2004, 05:06
Well thanks to Huck posting the reg, we see it is both reasonable and well thought out, unlike the post that started the thread.

Shuttleworth, you owe everyone in America an apology for senseless America bashing, and all of pprune an the same for tying up bandwith.

Lets see if you are big enough to apologize. Of course that takes a bigger man than to post a senseless accusation.


1st Jul 2004, 05:29
Wino. I trained in the States as a chopper pilot many years ago. Pilot licences in the States ARE easy. It's how you progress with them is the difference. 11,000 hrs later, I now fly left side stick instead of centre, no real change. We are all pilots, lets be reasonable with each other. There is protectionism on both sides.

Sir Richard
1st Jul 2004, 06:03
With anti-discrimination laws and an increasing diversity of employees at outfits such as Big Airways, it would not be too difficult to have a mole or two amongst 40,000+ staff. This additional layer of security should have no impact on normal line operations at the sharp end! :ok:

1st Jul 2004, 06:42
Funny isn't, each time I go into an oil or military or VIP installation as a visiting engineer I have to apply for a pass in advance with pasport copies, pictures etc etc. All I'm doing is walking round with a pad taking notes, after being bodysearched.
A pilot is in charge of xx millions of aircraft and the lives of 300 people. It sounds reasonable enough to me. If it keeps people like that lunatic who crashed 990 out of the pilot's seat it's worth it.

1st Jul 2004, 07:26
LTNman--You're absolutely right. American's paid little attention to terrorism abroad prior to 9/11. That's over.

I've always felt it was inexcusable for Irish-Americans to support the IRA. They should have been prosecuted as terrorist collaborators.

Part of the reason for the over reaction by the Government agencies is the fact that if something happens on their watch, there will be an inquest and someone will pay for it--generally not the responsible party.:rolleyes:

Or, maybe the U.S. is just trying to bring our bureaucracy up to EU standards!:D TC

Half a Mexican
1st Jul 2004, 08:06

Thanks for taking the time to post the facts.

I disagree with a lot of things the American Authorities have been doing recently, as do many Americans, but Iíll at least wait until I know exactly what is being proposed before criticising them.

If everyone else did the same this thread would be a lot shorter. :}


Mr Chips
1st Jul 2004, 10:10
I have to say that this has been one of the most interesting threads to read in quite some time. Lots of US bashing without checking what the rule actually was, but also lots of counter accusations by Americans who didn't think to post what the regs actually are...

One post that has shocked me though...

Oh, hang on.. I think it has been deleted. perhaps someone realised that we HAVE had terrorist atrocities in London and Manchester...

Anyway - well done Huck

1st Jul 2004, 15:19
While the TSA and Homeland security is indeed responding to a continuing and present danger, even most of us "yanks" thinks it a bit OTT. However, there really is not much that can be done about it, at least at present.

Yes, the scrutiny is rather involved and at time quite ridiculous, considering that it is mostly window dressing, meant to appease the great unwashed.

For now, just take it with a grain of salt, as we have seen, from time to time, the Dept. of Homeland Security, can be reasoned with and changes have been made.

As far as immigration stories goes, I have travelled enough, to know, that they happen with regularity around the globe.

1st Jul 2004, 15:56
I think the reality of the matter is that until the war on Terrorism is complete, anyone travelling to the USA that enters into any port, can be sure of being given a close examination. Even as in this case, they want prior advance notice regarding aircrew.

I have also heard that passangers that want to submit to fingerprints, and other forms of biometric ID, will be able to pass through security with relative ease. This, I assume, is to speed up the entry and exit of people that travel very often. They can pass through security checks with minimum delay. Would this not be a good idea for aircrew? Then you would not have the worry about advance notice, security or immigration delays. Also, if you have nothing to hide, what are you worried about?

Big Tudor
1st Jul 2004, 16:00
Oh dear, oh dear. Let's all get really uptight and start throwing our teddies out of the pram shall we. And we wonder why flight deck crew attract such negative comments from other airline staff.

Just to set the scene, I have been closley involved in the setting up of a Master Crew List for my company. Yes, it's a lot of work, no it won't stop the airline from operating and no it isn't the end of the civilised world as we know it. Once the initial list is set up it will be fairly easy to manage, and shouldn't take up a lot of anybodies time.

Quite why something as trivial as a list of names with a few details relevant to immigration should provoke such a heated reaction beats the hell out of me. You wanna be treated as a professional, then start bl@@dy acting like one. :mad:

1st Jul 2004, 20:07
prior to 9/11, as SLF I used to transit thru LAX and would go into the transit lounge. Now I have to get a ninety day visa to enter the lounge. Nothing else has changed except for the 90 minute line up. The exits are still alarmed, the staff still watch you, just as they used to. All this to wait while the jet is cleaned.

Now THAT is a regulation to complain about.

It has put quite a dent in the tech stops in Anchorage, apparently. It is such a hassle for foreign airlines who are merely gassing up there, many of them now stop in Toronto. The Doctrine of Unintended Consequences.

I am no fan of the TSA, and neither are any U.S. pilots I fly with.

My father did 31 years in this business, retired a NWA 747 captain, and if you had ever asked him to take off his belt and shoes (in front of his passengers, no less), I don't know whether he would have just laughed or slugged you. But now we just nod and mutter, while watching all those student-visa carriers traipse by.

But giving the TSA lists of "cleared" pilots sounds reasonable to me. Lord knows, it's hard enough to get cleared these days - a ten year FBI background check is just a start.... Might as well use the information.

West Coast
2nd Jul 2004, 06:34

Not asking you to be one of us, there's already too many coming from the other direction. Asking that a proper measure be used to gauge the differences.

Based on the superficial criteria AB uses of fast food restaurant, big vehicles, TV programs, cost of houses, etc. I find no validity for the vitriol he spews. I find few differences in the areas raised.

Like I said there are differences but its not going to be apparent by the metric AB uses. Politics and social issues yes, the grandslam breakfast at Denny's however is cooked just the same in Calgary as it is in San Diego. The same gas guzzling Chevy 2500 pickup I covet at the dealer up north would drink copious amounts of gas on either side of the border.

As far as tv, I will say there is an excellent program I try to catch when I am up north. The exact name escapes me but its something like "the critical eye" or something like that. Quite informative in a biased type of way.
Perhaps AB should go price the house in Vancouver, especially the homes along the main road towards the airport. He might not think he is so clever after pricing those. As far beyond my upper middle income as some of the "shacks" here in San Diego. Something to think about, those prices are what they are because there are folks who can afford them, must be doing something right. Plus living in that "shack" means I can BBQ on Christmas Day in shorts. No wait, I'm junior I'll be working that day.


It must be a French thing. I think Homer Simpson was on to something.

Ignition Override
2nd Jul 2004, 06:52
We have far too many bureaucrats in the US, maybe because of so many govt agencies, creating thousands of pages of paperwork, known as, eh, "productivity", if you really stretch the meaning a thousand miles.

So many of them have enough trouble justifying their existence-never mind some of those who deal with aviation regulations.

We all know that so many legalities often have little to do with safety or commonsense.

Just be patient-when foreign airlines alert the paper-pushing d**kheads that no standbys can be approved, and repercussions will take place (as they should) they will back off a bit. A TSA guy at Newark tonight told a passenger to take off his belt-I looked at the TSA guy and said "I'm not taking my belt off" and walked away.

Why don't all of YOU do the same and start standing up to them? Just do it and tell them that they can use those expensive govt-issued hand wands to scan you, and you must appear somewhat professional to the passengers. That's what wands are for. And NEVER let some creep (a Village People wannabe-is this too subtle?) ever again put his finger near the zipper on your pants. Simple. Never again!:mad:

montys ex teaboy
2nd Jul 2004, 07:50
It is known as "closing the gate after the horse has bolted".

Typical American, overreact to every event.

The only way to react, is for our countries to impliment the same measures. That will level up the playing field.

2nd Jul 2004, 23:23
As stunningly cerebral as he is pithy.

I predict a long and popular stay here....

2nd Jul 2004, 23:46
Rocky Top.

My wife has a B1/B2 visa.
She filled in the forms, sent the pics and jumped the hoops.
Because I cant afford to give my pasport to the US Embassy in London for 3 -4 weeks I do not have a visa.
We came in through Atlanta a few weeks ago and I had to use the Green Visa Waiver form.
I sailed through Immigration but my wife had to stop and have a photo taken plus fingerprinted.
Bearing in mind anyone with a UK passport can enter on Visa Waiver, and unless you are actually in a cave in Rocky Top you will appreciate that our immigration policy has a FEW ! ;) loop holes perhaps you could enlighten me as to the differences between a Visa Waiver and a Visa - or as Terry Wogan says " Is it MEEEE!" ( Sorry English joke !:O )

3rd Jul 2004, 11:20
I can't see what all the fuss is about !

There's nothing wrong with a bit of American "bashing" - after all they have been at it for years because they keep telling us so. :zzz:

and before you get jumpy, my username is a refence to an area of England called Yorkshire - a quaint little village on our tiny island, about the size of one of your backyards.:=

Dan Winterland
3rd Jul 2004, 17:58
As I see more of this measures introduced well after the event, the expression regarding closing stable doors after horses have gne comes to mind. It is fairly obvious that as we all seem to be forewarned, anothe 9/11 style event is fairly unlikely. However, this has been flogged to death in other threads.

The next event will come from a ship I reckon. An interesting development in the numerous ship piracy events in the South China Sea, especially the Straits of Malacca is the capturing of the ship only for the crew to be relased after the pirates have had a bit of practice driving the ship around.

Go figure!

3rd Jul 2004, 19:23
With the 4th of July approaching, I'm sure that many Citizens of the USA will be looking at their country and its Government.

I therefore doubt that I can or should contribute anything to this debate since many of their own people are doing quite an adequate job of critisizing themselves.

I will say this, it seems to me that we (the rest of the world) are dealing with two different US of A's, on the one hand, certainly I and I'm sure many of you, in this industry have met and made friends with many wonderful people from the US and we are aware of the great wealth and potential of the country. On the other hand many of us have to deal with a bureaucracy that seems to have gone out of hand and to have lost the ability to reason intelligently.

Now assuming that the same rule holds true in the US as in the rest of the world, where not necessarily all of the best and brightest people are occupying the offices of the Government machinery, then it is perhaps understandable that often times the "appearance" of taking appropriate measures to deal with a situation may be more important then actually achieving that objective. We can only hope that the passage of time will help to improve the execution of what at times seem to be onerous and excessive requirements, painted with a very broad brush indeed. I think we are already seeing some modifications to procedures that are making the passage into or through the US a less chaving experience.

I wish that I could contribute to keeping the USA strong and on an even keel with the rest of the world, rather then having to perhaps live to experience its position as the worlds dominant superpower being replaced by a rising economic giant like China!

There seems little likelyhood of the countries of the EU becoming sufficiently united to being much more of a "United Europe" then they are now! and judging from some of the edicts emanating from Brussels I am not sure that I would be impressed any more favourably then I am by those coming from Washington

Enjoy your Summer!

3rd Jul 2004, 19:35
There is no such thing. 300 million people don't think alike. Nor is there is a "typical" anyone. BTW Yanks haters, If it is so bad, don't come. Everyone else, look past any slights from the bureaucrats, I have done it for the European version for years. Come on over, visist Miami, go to the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone. The Pacific Northwest or New England in the autumn. Chance are you'll enjoy yourself...and the Euro is strong. BTW I was in Normandy via CGD for 60 years since the invasion. Thanks to all the French citizens that made my uncle feel so welcomed. In 1944, here lost part of his left leg outside Mortain trying to be a "typical" American...a 17 year old teenage Rifleman....off the boat from Eire for less than 9 years before fighting for a greater good........thousands of miles from his home....yup, typical American.:ok:

bugg smasher
3rd Jul 2004, 22:07
A lot of football hooligans on this thread, too bad. Not really sure, but Manchester seems to be a hotbed of anti-Yank fervor, more than a few posters come to mind. Sorry lads, about stealing your girls I mean, we know yer sore at us. But theyíve made wonderful wives, dedicated, sexy and articulate, and have produced a generation of healthy productive Americans. Just seem to thrive in this climate I guess.

All such mud-slinging idiocy aside though, the TSA has a mandate to protect this country from further assault by the likes of Mohammed Atta and sorry down-and-out bums like him. The consequences of failure to do so have been set forth in the clearest of terms.

I regard this profession as one that requires a reasonably high level of intelligence, and as such, assume that most of us are capable of assessing not only the macro, but the microscopic magnitude of such a daunting task.

4th Jul 2004, 16:03
Overheard in a 30 to 40 yard line up for "security" at a large domestic airport in the US recently. A foreign national asked, "Why are the government punishing the American public?"

The answer is quoted at the end of Farenheit 9/11. George Orwell in "1984" wrote that the purpose of war is not to defeat the enemy but to keep your own people subjugated.

The American public has been had.