VFR in Scotland ??

[Spitfire78]

Hi,

I'm considering moving up to Edinburgh from the South East, in fact it's fairly likely we will. Have heard all sorts about Scottish weather and was just wondering how many VFR days the guys and gals average in a year up there?

I'm most definitely going to start my PPL towards the end of the year and would just like some rough ideas of how frequently I'd be able to go fly!

Thanks

SF78

[witchdoctor]

What is it with you townies? I once had neighbours who moved out of London to Northants and were convinced they'd need a 4x4 as they were bound to be snowed in every winter as this was the countryside.:rolleyes:

However, in fairness, Scotland does rather tend to have its own weather systems. Edinburgh and the Firth of Forth generally seems to suffer with mist and fog fairly regularly, especially through winter and spring, when the weather elsewhere is pretty good. That said, I don't think you'll find any great difference to the number of VFR flyable days to the south east, just Scottish VFR may be cloudier, colder and wetter than you're used too. :D

[knobbygb]

Depends how you define VFR really.

Just came back from flying in Scotland, and I'd say that the instructors/regulars up there generally seem to be more comfortable about flying in 'bad' weather than their conterparts down-south.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about illegal or dangerous flying here, just a different attitude - kind of 'half full glass rather than half empty' - VFR until proven otherwise - 'you can always turn round and come back if you don't like it'. I was taken (by a very experienced instructor) flying down narrow valleys between mountains who's peaks were 2000 ft above us and well obscured in low cloud. The lesson was to make sure you could see a way out at the other end of the valley or have enough room to turn around, and to be decisive about what to do and when to turn around.

I don't so this sort of stuff solo, but it's made me more confident about flying in poor weather and allowed me to stretch my limits a bit. I've also been flying in WAY more wind than my normal club would allow (25 gusting 30 headwind for t/o and landing), and flown through some pretty heavy rain showers/poor vis. All good experience.

You'll enjoy flying up there - when you really can't fly you'll save money for the good weather days which can be REALLY stunning. Go for it, I say.

[nosewheelfirst]

just a different attitude - kind of 'half full glass rather than half empty' - VFR until proven otherwise

spot on knobbygb

It all depends on what sort of VFR flyer you are.
If its blue skies and light wind then you will not fly a lot.
If you enjoy dodging showers and strong winds and high ground in cloud then its for you.
We do not take more risks we are jsut more than happy to turn back or divert.

[mad_jock]

Scottish pilots are cowards and are not afraid to admit it, and long may it continue :D.

Don't be put off by hearing that we fly in high winds, rain low cloud bases. Once you get used to its no problem. And you will be a better pilot for it. And the accident rate in scotland I am pretty certain isn't any worse than down south.

The scenery is great and there are some cracking fields dotted around with very reasonable landing fee's ( Stay well clear of ABZ GLA and EDI) all the rest around 10 quid or less PIK if you get the flying club to handle you comes out at about 10 quid including over night parking.

In INV last year I only had about 12 days which wern't flyable locally 8 of them due wind the rest low cloud.

Its well worth though having a valid IMC and being current on it.

MJ

[Spitfire78]

Thanks for your replies -

I think that also settles my other dilema - where to get training. I was toying with the idea of starting at a JAA aproved school in South Africa when visiting my folks. But I'm starting to realise that it might help my flying more if I trained in Scottish conditions from the start.


SF78

[PH-UKU]

... well .... ? I can strongly recommend Inverness for learning. Beautiful scenery, bit of an introduction to the mountains and Scottish weather AND your qualifying cross-country might be over the sea to Orkney !!!

Word of advice - never believe the BBC reports about the weather up here.

I did my licence in Inverness in 3 weeks. Yes, 3 weeks. Only had 2 days scrubbed due to weather. The Moray Firth does tend to have a bit of a micro climate, much better and milder than other parts of Scotland - also the reason why there are 2 RAF bases (Lossiemouth and Kinloss) situated here.

I now fly from Glasgow, and if truth be told it is wetter on the west coast. Out of 10 bookings to fly, I probably cancel about 6 of them in the winter, and perhaps 3 in the summer due to weather. If I flew out of Prestwick (30 miles Southwest) it woudl be better as the weather is less localised there. However you get used to working out your own weather, best days are in behind cold fronts in the winter - can be a bit breezy but the vis is superb.

On the east coast you will get more fog (haar blowing in off the sea) but generally it is milder and sunnier than the west coast (only 60 miles away).

ANd of course, when you get your licence, you are but a short step away from the UKs only floatplane school !!

['India-Mike]

PH-UKU is quite right in everything he says.

The weather is perhaps not as good as down south but is generally 'useable'. Last year, I did my tailwheel conversion at Prestwick - and struggled to find crosswind conditions that took me to the aeroplane limits (Chipmunk, and the civvy limits are only 10knots!) In 10 hours (20 sorties) of aerobatics, where I look at least for 4,500' cloudbase, I had to cancel only one trip.

Our weather is generally better than you might expect!

[silverknapper]

Spitfire

I did my licence in SA. The JAA school has gone bust again anyway.
Go to Inverness - you really won't regret it. I fly there now having moved up here. It's a real flying club, not a school which churns out PPL's. Yes weather here can be challenging at times but as everyone says you'll be better for it.

Mad Jock would you care to expand on your previous post? You are being exceptionally irresponsible making comments like that. I would suggest you retract it or back it with hard evidence. From what I see it is a busy school with a firm base, no reason for problems. Yes we all know you worked there but when was that?

Cheers

SK

[mad_jock]

err don't have a clue where that one came from. Comment deleted.

Its pretty common knowledge up here that I parted company from the school on not good terms.

I thinks someone has been stirring things again. Password has now been changed.

MJ

[silverknapper]

or a trip to the heathmount perhaps?

[mad_jock]

To be honest i don't really have a problem with the advice. But would say its valid for all Flying Schools, be it PPL or Commercial.

And its pretty standard advice from the Moderators in the wannabie section.

Don't pay up front.

Pay by CC

Don't buy blocks with discount.

I would certainly recommend flying around the Highlands using Inv for a base.

Anyway no doudt this will cause weeks of bitching and threats. And make even less members inclined to visit the flying club which is not what I want in any form.

MJ

[Spitfire78]

Hmmm.... Inverness is roughly 115mi from Edinburgh by road. Ideally we need to live quite close to EDI, as both me and mrs spitfire will be based there (office desk jockeys)

That's probably a bit far out to be travelling for training... or has it been done before? Are there other schools / clubs a bit closer to EDI worth checking out? (PM me instead if that sort of discussion will cause problems on the forum!)

Thanks again for all the input!

SF78

[james brown]

So what is your opinion then mad jock - get off the bloody fence. I read what you originally posted - was that a moment of weakness or was it your opinion?
Thinking about a PPL there, you've put me off.
Anyway no doudt this will cause weeks of bitching and threats. And make even less members inclined to visit the flying club which is not what I want in any form.

If thats what you don't want why be deliberately evasive by saying

I would certainly recommend flying around the Highlands using Inv for a base.
This was about getting a PPL, not flying around. You are indicating that there would be something wrong with actually using that club. Please state why. Is it just sour grapes or do you have a real point?

[BRL]

JB, If you are refering to the post that has been deleted by MJ, then I believe he did not post what was written. Look up to his post about password change and put two and two together. :)

[james brown]

I am putting two and two together. Be realistic, how many false posts are really posted here. Not many. Then look for a motive - I believe MJ was fired by the school he slags off - reason enough?
I am looking for a PPL. If he slags a school off, let him be man enough to justify it, not hide behind some crap about password theft! At the end of the day he is messing with someones ivliehood.

[mad_jock]

Nah i am not going to get pushed into a corner by a 4 post wonder. :D

My fault for using ie password remember but we all live and learn.

If you want to know anything about me and my instruction style and ability please post on pprune and ask the question. Out of the 17 students that passed first time in that 14months i think 12 of them are on pprune and i am sure they can tell you that i am to honest for my own good and utterly profesional when it comes to work, but have a tendency to open gob before engaging brain when it comes to diplomancy, such is life. But i have a sneaky suspiscion that you know that already james.

Read my posts james I must admit i maybe tend to go over the top on the subjects of OBA, Intergrated Courses and triple A over charging (breath in stop typing). But the one thing you can be fecking sure of is that i have the student at the top of my list.

MJ

As for the sacked thing :D thats always good for a laugh in the club. All the members know what happened that day, it really dosn't bother me , hot air with a hint of whisky isn't really a problem.

[Blinkz]

To answer Spitfires question, EDI has a flying club, I'm afraid I don't know much about it tho. I've got my class 1 medical on monday and if I pass that then I hope to be starting a PPL soon, with Edinburgh Flying club being top of my list sinces its 15mins drive from me :)

[PPRuNe Radar]

james brown

Why would MJ slag off someone .... having obtained a decent airline job, thanks in no small way to his experiences and insight in to the airline world whilst at Inverness ???

You may be new to the game, but mostly people who have axes to grind are those who have not made it very far in their career plans and seem to think everyone else is to blame.

I have been a student of MJ's for a very short while and have absolutely no doubt he is a fine professional instructor .... which led to me passing a Skills Test with a CAA examiner in as short a time as I could have imagined possible. Unlikely such a person would be sacked for his ability .........

[TonyR]

Ok, back to Scotland.

Best flying in the WORLD. (especally in the winter)

I fly North East about 3 times a month.

Friendly people (at least they are to the Irish)

Get up there, get some fresh air in your system and have a look.

Tony

[james brown]

I didn't ask about your instructional prowess MJ, indeed I'm sure you're wonderful.
Nor did I suggest that he was fired for his instructional ability Radar.
If we can go back to the point now:

So what is your opinion then mad jock - get off the bloody fence. I read what you originally posted - was that a moment of weakness or was it your opinion?
Any chance of a straight answer?

[TonyR]

Is digging up this personal $hit helping private flying?

[james brown]

I believe it is. MJ had a public dig at a school I am interested in. All I want is for him to back it up or apologise. No one wants to start at a school that may go under - apart from losing cash which I wouldn't by not paying up front it interrupts the continuity of training. Therefore yes Tony I believe it is helpful.

[BRL]

The original question is about the Scottish weather and how often he can fly up there. Somehow, from JB's post telling MJ to get off the fence, it has gone off track quite a bit hasn't it.

I suggest JB and MJ continue this discussion by PM or e-mail but not on here. Start your own threads guys if you want to, but this is stopping right now on this thread.

I want to see the next few posts going along the lines of what the original poster asked.

For those people who have stated in the past about me deleting posts/threads or stopping anything that has a bit of 'spice' in it, well, you can explain to me exactly what the JB/MJ argument has to do with the weather in Scotland ok? Do this by PM or e-mail and I will happily discuss this with you untill the cows come home.

[james brown]

Check your PM's.

[TonyR]

James, I dont know MJ, nor am I interested in his employment history.

Your comments are NOT relevent.

You may be pissed off at MJ but most of us don't want to know. if he does not reply to his PMs then he does not want to know either. so please leave it there.

Scotland is a wonderful place to fly but like every other place in the world people sometimes don't get along.

Tony

[mad_jock]

BRL i think you might want to check these threads. James Brown seems to have a slight problem with what stage in his training he is in. I think he is just trying to provok a reaction.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=124348&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99033

Subject finished now as far as i am concerned.

Flying in scotland, it's great.

On a reply to the original post, Fife or Perth with Tayside might also be an option as also Cumbernauld but I don't know much about them. And pay by CC :D

MJ

[BRL]

Thanks for that MJ. I have had a PM from JB explaining a few things and I see your answer here too so that is that, no need for either of you to continue this on here. End of story. :)

[ComJam]

Nothing wrong with Scotlands weather for VFR flying.

In fact the visibility (in excess of 50km's regularly) is generally much better than it is "down south". Which means you get a much nicer view of the scenery, which is also much better than it is down south :) Add to that the vast tracts of open airspace, the snow capped mountains, the beautiful islands of the west coast and the quiet, well run airfields and you've got a light aviation paradise :ok:

Might be slightly biased there.....

For PPL training in Scotland i'd recommend Tayside Aviation's outfit at Perth (40 miles north of EDI). Great airfield, outside controlled airspace but within easy range of the Edinburgh and Glasgow control zones. Give them a call.

Enjoy

CJ

[Sandy Hutton]

AST at Perth had 20 Cessna 150's during the 70's doing 700 hours a year each. Is that a good enough weather reference for anyone?:O

[skydriller]

The weather in Scotland......

I used to live there and to all of those that say the weather is good I say....

Bo:mad: :mad: ocks

.....It is not warm and dry, it is cold and wet:ugh:

......but let me clarify...

That is not to say you wont be able to fly up there and that you wont enjoy it immensely. I did my PPL with Tayside at Dundee, and I did it over the winter period with only a few cancelled lessons due weather. Great memories...I remember some amazing viz flights over the hills. I remember some challenging crosswind circuits such that when I got down I was told it was towards the limit. I remember dodging snow showers and diverting due to a snowy runway. I remember the hills covered in snow below looking like a chrismas card scene. Amazing, and I loved every minute of it.

I know you will like it too.

And if you are wondering, I now fly where it is warm and sunny!!:cool: :ok:

Regards, SD..

PS - I also did the valley flying/cloudbase thing with my instructor - it was a good lesson.

[Oshkosh George]

Sandy Hutton

Check your PMs

[ComJam]

A proper flying school, lots of aircraft, great airfield, cracking facilities, excellent instructors (obviously ;) )good weather (just to keep on topic :) ), i haven't enjoyed working for any other company as much as i enjoyed myself there.

Bloody Wocca wocca operators closed it and sold it! :mad:

Any other ex-AST instructors around here? Or students (GAC)?

[NorthSouth]

Stewartflyer:at Tayside just across the water which is less than a half hours drive from EdinburghBetter watch out for those speed cameras then Stewart!

[PPRuNe Radar]

Tayside at Glenrothes Fife most likely ;)

[KCDW]

Now completed the 1st of a 4 month assignment up in Glasgow.

And it's wet. It's raining as I type. It was wet at the beginning of the assignment and it has practically not stopped raining since. There was a Friday when it wasn't wet, but that feels like light years ago.

Fortunately I go home "darn Sarf" on weekends so I can still fly.

I think the band "Wet, Wet, Wet" were Scottish weren't they? Good name. ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I love flying in Scotland, best scenery, nicest people, good food (well, sometimes) - if only there was any work for flight test engineers up there I'd be up like a shot to stay (although Mrs.G, who was born in ZA and considers the South of England rather chilly for much of the year may disagree with me).

To some extent you don't need a weather forecast so much as a calendar - the weather is much more seasonal than down South. But to a very large extent it's also very localised - all that high ground, water, odd ocean currents, etc. mean that local knowledge is everything. I won't claim to have done enough flying in Scotland (sadly) to have developed that level of knowledge - but I've learned enough to know the importance of virtually every time you plan to fly, finding the most experienced local you can find and asking their opinion.

The keen local aviators tend to run their lives on the basis of being able to drop everything and go flying as soon as the weather becomes flyable - but what's wrong with that?

Safety needs to be a bigger issue - you'll spend much more time over inhospitable terrain than you would in most of England - RT, flight plans, dinghys, etc. become rather more critical.

Another interesting point is that the airfields are rather more widely spaced - so they tend to be less "specialist", and in a light aircraft you mix with big stuff more than in the South.

So, it needs a different approach - but if you're looking to learn anyway you'll pick that up from the experienced local instructors.

G

[murphy1901]

Even by our own standards, the weather here in Central Scotland has been bad over the last few weeks! Wet, wet, wet sums it up.

Last year while doing my PPL, between March and December I flew every weekend and only cancelled three times due to weather. This year, during September alone, I've scrubbed 3 times. :(

I've got a trip to Oban planned but there's some of the inhospitable terrain to cover that Genghis mentions. At the moment, there's little prospect of the weather cooperating and the altitude required being available.

Hopefully some gin clear winter flying days to look forward to before too long!

[NorthSouth]

PPRuNe Radar:Tayside at Glenrothes Fife most likely He must live in Cramond then....

murphy:I\'ve got a trip to Oban planned but there\'s some of the inhospitable terrain to cover that Genghis mentions. At the moment, there\'s little prospect of the weather cooperating and the altitude required being available Fly round it! Getting the cloudbase for a direct VFR route to Oban is unusual, but there are plenty alternative routes using Carron Valley/Loch Lomond etc, with last resort (when cloudbase 2000ft) being all the way round by Rothesay. It\'s a nice trip! More changes of heading required but the nav\'s easier because you\'re going coastwise.

[NinjaBill]

I flew all the way from prestwick to oban with a cloudbase of 1500ft by routing up the coast, no problems. I get a nose bleed when I go much above 1500ft ;)

[murphy1901]

NorthSouth & Ninja

I did look at the costal route - how far west did you go - out to Loch Fyne and then north from there?

[NinjaBill]

IIRC, (I havent got my map on me) I followed loch fyne all the way to the top along the eastern coast, then crossed about 3 - 4 miles of land, then continued to follow the coast up, until I got to Oban

It was so easy, even I could do it. ;)

[PH-UKU]

I do the trip frequently from Glasgow. Best route I usually find is (get your 1:250000 out) to the west of Bute, then north up Loch Fyne to Lochgilphead, where there is a low level route along the north of the Crinan Canal toward Shuna Point on the island of Shuna. Thereafter follow the coast to Oban. Beware that there are TWO marked runways 03 and 01 (I think). Don't make the mistake of lining up on 03 when 01 is the 'main'. Doh !

A stunning alternative if it's not too windy is to head for Islay then go low-level north via the West coast of Jura. If midweek, WATCH OUT for low-level (200-500feet) fast jet activity in the Sound of Jura, around Colonsay, Loch Linnhe, Sound of Mull. Anything from Hercs to F15s, Tornadoes and Harriers. If you see one ..... watch out for his wingman, and they often play around in 4 ships. Quite often your first sif=ghting is of the shadow across the ground .. yes it does get beautifully sunny up here ... particularly on the 80k vis days behind a cold front :)

In general westerly winds watch out for turbulence on the east side of the hills, sorry 'mountains' (for the southerners ;). Arran can be particularly bumpy above 2000' on the east coast if the wind is 20kts or more. Below 2000 it's usually smooth (2/3rd of height of hills). Well that's my rule of thumb.

If you want to get a FIS on the way up, it is worth knowing that the R/T transmitters for Scottish Info on 127.27 are at Tiree and at Lowther Hill (by Abingdon on the M74). So anything below 1500' is dodgy two-way in that area due to the hills of Argyll, except around Tarbert/Tighnabruich where you can get two-way at 700 feet (line of sight with Lowther) ;) Insider knowledge.

The only other thing you need to remember (and this is VERY VERY important). When flying into Oban you MUST read the airfield information charts properly and take special note of UK Air Pilot GEN section. In the Addendum to Appendix B, para 2.4 it clearly states - Due to high ground in the vicinity of Scotland, pilots approaching from the South must check before entering Scottish Airspace, or prior to point of first landing, that they have the correct airfield pressure setting and correct weight and balance of biscuits on board. Failure to comply with these simple instructions can lead to embarassment when the kettle at Oban mysteriously malfunctions (at point of maximum thirst) and is thence withdrawn from use under The Argyll Enterprise Regulations - Schedule B - Operation of Unlicensed Electrical Equipment by Untrained Personnel in Class G Airspace (sub section Jammy Dodgers)

YOU have been warned !! :ok:

[murphy1901]

Thank you PH-UKU for the information packed post - great stuff and much appreciated.

I'm reading up on the Jammy Dodger regulations as I type... :ok:

[boomerangben]

Ahhhh...... Oban and the jammy dodgers. Haven't been for a while, hope to get there again soon.

On the note about how the weather changes across Scotland. Left Plockton the other day in heavy showers and 30 knots of wind for Inverness where the sun was shining and the wind a little more benign. Not very comfortable in the mountains but nice ground speed!