Flying to Mull [Archive]

EGCJFlyer

25th Jun 2004, 18:17

Hi there, I'm fairly new to posting on Prune but have found all the information on here very helpful. I am a low hour PPL - 70 hours, passed at 45 (was lucky!) and am based at Sherburn. Now due to embark on my longest trip yet.... to Mull! Wondered if anyone has travelled up there from the North of England and which route you selected??

I will be flying one of the club's Warriors and am taking three of my friends and a bit of baggage. Because I will be at full weight (fuel just over half full - est. 3 hours endurance), I have elected to fly myself to Leeds Bradford and pick them up from there. Currently, I have planned up to the DCS then into Prestwick Airport to top up on fuel before heading North to Mull. I am just about to embark on my IMC so am wholly reliant on the weather being fair otherwise I will need to route around the Lake District or cancel it completely!! :*

Plan to do a bit of island hopping when I'm there so going to make the most of my time up there.....

I guess the reason for typing this thread is to see if anyone has made similar trips, in similar conditions with similar restrictions?? Would appreciate anyone's tips in order to make my first flying weekend the best experience yet!

Thanks!

'India-Mike

25th Jun 2004, 18:51

Hi

I'm a local pilot. Mull is in superb condition just now. Leeds-Prestwick-Mull is ideal in good weather conditions. Couple of 'escape routes' for poor weather require local knowledge (Crinan canal/Loch Fyne gets you from west coast south of Oban to open water east of Arran, or vice-versa) and further south to West Loch Tarbert/Tarbert will bring you out at roughly the same place just north of Arran. Or you could follow the west coast all the way to Machrihanish, giving you the option of Gigha.

As a one-time Warrior pilot I'd be extremely careful about take off performance 4-up out of Mull, particularly taking off to the west, where a right turn after departure is advised due to a bit of high ground. If it can be done I'll bet it's with a light fuel load but Avgas, tea and Jammie Dodgers are available at Oban.

If you're looking at a chart and considering places like Colonsay, Coll or Jura, then forget it in a Warrior. Gigha is not as good as Mull, a bit rough but reasonably well maintained, but it's got a substantial part of its length (1/4 to 1/3 perhaps) that is uphill.

There's a Warrior at Glasgow Flying Club that was into Mull just the other day. Maybe those guys will see this post and give you a better idea of what a 4-up Warrior might be like. Or try the club on 0141-889 4565 and ask to speak to a local pilot - Mull is a regular and popular destination for the GFC Warrior.

Good luck and enjoy!

Genghis the Engineer

25th Jun 2004, 18:52

I have, and enjoyed it enormously - but the flying is demanding, and few of the airfields have fuel.

You're talking about a heavyweight aeroplane that isn't known for it's short field capabilities, with a pilot who (and you clearly recognise this yourself) isn't all that experienced.

Go for it, but I'd advise against landing at smaller fields like Glenforsa(Mull), Plockton or unsupported fields like Broadford (Skye) and look to long runways and ground facilities - such as Prestwick, North Connell, Stornoway, etc. Basically places with at-least 900m and somebody on a radio.

G

'India-Mike

25th Jun 2004, 19:01

Hi again

Should have said that the GFC Warrior went to Mull 3-up. They were 3 skinny runts though:O

scottish_ppl

25th Jun 2004, 19:11

Echo Genghis's comments here.

You're looking at landing on a grass strip, with a tricky approach in one direction, and no facilities after a longish, possibly tiring trip.

Far better to plan to Oban, I would suggest, where you've got fuel, more runway and a good welcome and plenty local knowledge.

You can take some local flights from there to look at the other strips, with no pressure to land if you dont like the look of them!

Or continue up to Inverness, Stornoway, Benbecula etc.. All got loads of tarmac for your PA28.

EGCJFlyer

25th Jun 2004, 19:53

Dear all,

Thanks very much to all for your very quick responses. I selected Mull for it's outdoors - my other hobby is walking and climbing. Whilst I appreciate that I am relatively inexperienced, I under no circumstances will take any chances, especially with passengers on-board and will continue to take advice both on this website and from fellow members at Sherburn too.

I don't personally have a problem with the planning I have done so far and am confident of getting into Mull. I am and was concerend about taking off with four onboard on the way out of Mull and should've pointed out on my original post that I plan to do two trips from Mull on the return to Oban (1 pass. then the other two) before re-fuelling and returning to Sherburn. I am tied to fly a minimum eight hours (Fri - Sun) so am not bothered about the additional flying hours spent doing this.

Only other island I planned on visiting was Islay (myself, leave the others to climb Ben More!) and a couple of other islands and again to Oban to pick my brother up.... I am Scottish, originally from Paisley!

I would appreciate further feedback, if you have any, afterall, that's why I posted in the first place.

Thanks very much for your advice so far............

NorthSouth

25th Jun 2004, 21:05

I'd echo the comments about Warriors 4-up. Unless you have one of the uprated weight variants (2400 lbs???) you're already at max weight with 4 adult males, half tanks and no baggage at all. And 3hrs sounds like an over-estimate of endurance to me. With proper reserves your half tanks will only take you 1.5 to 2hrs.

On top of that a max weight Warrior is not a relaxing environment to be in on take-off. You'll be willing that VSI to show just a little more optimism.

But hey, if you do your ferrying trips between Mull and Oban as described, and do your W&B and performance calcs properly, and you already have some grass experience, there's no reason why you shouldn't try Mull.

I have an Excel spreadsheet which does performance calcs for the Warrior I usually fly. I can send you a copy if you PM me on the strict understanding that you must put in the correct weights for your particular Warrior, which may be heavier than ours.

grow45

25th Jun 2004, 21:08

You will also find some useful info at http://www.crthompson.co.uk/4670/4724.html

g45

Solo Hire

25th Jun 2004, 21:47

Sounds like you've got it worked out well ahead. I've flown quite a bit in that area with a similar number of hours to yourself, but have never risked anything other than concrete runways (OK, I'm a whoose!). That said, Plockton was very comfortable in a max-weight Tomahawk.

One thing nobody has said yet... need to think of your landing alternate in the event of bad weather. The weather in some of the valleys can be very localised, esp the Great Glen, which sometimes makes them impassable without an IMC. As has been pointed out, fuelling points are few and far between, and you always need to have enough to turn back for an alternate... which usually results in carrying far more fuel than is really necessary.

Those steep-turns you have to do for the GFT? You quite often need them for a turn in the valley without touching the cloud base, the water or the sides!

Should be fun though, especially in good weather. All the best, and enjoy. Nothing beats VFR "on top" in Scotland.

Skinny Runt

25th Jun 2004, 23:03

We actually weighed 160 lbs each, (not too skinny ;) ) and took off from Glasgow with 35 galls. (Gallus Glasgow Galls you understand ;) ). We had just about tabs(about 30 galls) when we landed. So I estimate our Landing/take-off weight at Mull was .......... about 2350 lbs. Wind was about 4-5kts straight across from the north. This is in a lovely wee 160Hp Warrior 2 (2440 MTOW). Over the fence at 70-65kts, touchdown about 100yds in and we were stopped with about 300yds to spare. On the a way out we took about 400m of ground roll, rotating about 55kts with 2 stages of flap. Don't climb out of ground effect too early. Keep the stick back after landing and on taxy to keep the weight off the nosewheel.

Now. If you are not too sure about grass strips, get an instructor checkout first, but it is well worth the effort.

Some advice in particular about Mull. The nicest grass strip I've ever had the privilege of being on. (that includes Compton Abbas, Old Sarum, Whiterashes, Feshiebridge, Dornoch is a close second .... and Gigha (beware the soft patch and ruts in the middle))

Land on the south (uphill) half of the runway. It can be a wee bit soft on the seaward side.

If the wind is 10kts or more from the south .. forget it. It gets a lot of downdraughts and turbulence from Ben More, and they are amplified by the trees south of 25 threshold.

I'd be careful with 4 up, but if you are pretty light with fuel and you know your aeroplane performance, why not? Do you count the runway lights on takeoff to see if the weight you've got matches the performance in the book ? I do and am pretty confident of my Warriors abilities but that is after a few years of experience. Alternatively do a couple of shuttle flights from Oban - it's only 10 minutes each way.

Gigha is possible in a Warrior, but I wouldn't take more than 2 people, and there is a slope at the 26 overrun end .... you don't want to overrun ..... it's a 40 foot cliff !!

If it has rained at all in the previous 3 days Gigha will be soft, and they don't cut the grass as often as they should. Phone the hotel for advice but remember they don't fly. If you want to PM me I could answer any more specific questions.

Although Glenforsa doesn't have fuel, it has better facilities than many many places. Try

www.glenforsa.com (http://www.glenforsa.com)

for starters .... and the main courses and pudding are even better ;)

Hotel is now run by an aviator - who pulls good beer, and has a Piper Cub based there.

My advice -- GO FOR IT !!

ISLAY ISLAY ISLAY - ISLE OF MY HEART - MY OWN ONE ... cue for a song .....

And of course, you can visit a couple of distilleries while you are there, or camp on a couple of beaches - Kilnaughton by Port Ellen, or Kintra campsite at the end of the runway. Scrounge a cuppa in the tower (very friendly folks)... and say \'hello\' from Glasgow ;)

Definitely recommend the Ardbeg Distillery - good tours, ask for Jackie and Emma - superb restaurant (about £20 return taxi from the airport). 1.2 hr on a bike (hire it from Morags teabar at the terminal). Or wait for a bus. Tower has the times.

Or head the other way (NW) to Bowmore (20 min cycle) and visit their distillery. Good food and coffee in the Harbour Inn... at least it used to be ... think the previous owner (who had Islay\'s only based aircraft - PA28) just sold up.

Or hire a car and take it easy on your legs.

What the craic on Islay ?
http://www.ileach.co.uk/

Enjoy:ok:

Whirlybird

26th Jun 2004, 08:27

The more I read this the more it worries me...

You say "a bit of baggage". Have you actually weighed what you're going to take? You AND the other three people? Have you honestly weighed yourselves, fully clothed?

I flew with a co-pilot in the Highlands in a C152 last summer, and with the same person in Europe last month. We took nothing but flying essentials and one change of clothes, and we were still on the limit with regards to weight. You'll have four headsets, charts, flight guides, flight planning equipment to start with. I can get my personal items down to 5-6lbs; can you and the other three do the same? Even so...

4 x headsets - about 6lbs (estimated)
4 x empty bags/ cases - 6lbs minimum
Flight guides, charts etc - about 5lbs
4 x change of clothes/toothbrushes - 24lbs
cameras, mobile phones, chargers for them, and other bits you've forgotten about - 12lbs

Minimal luggage is 53lbs!!! And with four people I'd be surprised if you could take that little, actually.

Prove me wrong if you like, but so close to limits you MUST weigh EVERYTHING, and you MUST make sure you have enough fuel to divert in bad weather - and that includes sudden bad weather when you least expect it. And don't forget, if the weather gets hot, that degrades performance too.

I'm not trying to put you off. But I've toured quite a lot at max aircraft weight, and it's scary how an aircraft with excellent performance suddenly changes if you're hot or high or at the weight limit.

Genghis the Engineer

26th Jun 2004, 09:23

Just building on what Whirly says

An ex-CSE Warrior (I fly one too) like the one at Sherburn will have an empty weight of about 1550 lbf, and an MTOW of 2325lbf, so that's a useable load of 775 lbf. I don't think well in pounds, so let's make that 352kg.

Assuming an average 13 stone adult (in clothing remember) that's 83kg x 4 = 332kg.

352kg - 332kg = 20 kg, or 28 litres of fuel.

That's roughly one hour, with no reserves and no toothbrush.

Sorry I didn't point that out earlier. Best replan now before your CFI publically does it for you. I'd suggest leaving somebody behind is the ONLY way to do this, since:-

352kg - (3 x 82kg) = 106kg.

- 4 hours fuel carefully leaned (28 x 4 x 0.72 = 80kg) gives 26kg left.

Which is just about enough for some light bags (57lbf, just slightly more than Whirly's best-guess).

G

EGCJFlyer

26th Jun 2004, 11:19

Dear all, thanks for all your comments so far. However, I feel, particularly Genghis's comments are unfair and based on assumptions. So let me give you details of weight, planning,etc and please now let me know whether in your judgement I should continue or adjust my flight plans......

1st assumption - must be good VFR conditions otherwise I am not going ahead. Whilst I would fly normally in marginal VFR conditions, I wouldn't do this for a weekend trip, particularly flying so far from base.

Weight:
MTOW: 2440lbs (1109kgs)
Aircraft basic empty weight: 1557lbs (708kgs)
Usable load: 883lbs (401kgs)

Pilot + passenger 352lbs (160kgs)
2 rear passengers 308lbs (140kgs)

(slightly skinnier than your assumptions Genghis and fully clothed - already weighed)

Baggage 40lbs (18kgs)

(already listed, weighed and includes flying gear) (we don't need many clothes, we are not out to pull the local talent on Mull!!!)

So that leaves me with 182lbs (83kgs) for fuel which in my calculations is 115 litres (25 imp. gallons) - 8 gallons / hour burn give me an endurance of c. 3 hours. Awaiting more details of winds on the day, assume a flight time to Prestwick (for fuel) from LBA at 100knts/hour 1hr 25 mins mins point to point + 20 mins on ground at LBA + 25 mins approach at Prestwick gives a total of 2hrs 10 mins with 50 mins reserve. Options for diversion are Carlisle en-route and Glasgow. If on the day winds suggest that this becomes extremely marginal (i.e. head wind) then Carlisle becomes my first fuel en-route stop.

As for arriving at Mull, if wind conditions are not favourable, then Oban is the obvious choice of destination. I have no problems with that. However good the conditions are on the return, I will be ferrying passengers in two trips to Oban before initiating my return to LBA.

I know I am relatively inexperienced compared to a BA pilot but I have the confidence in my planning and flying to do this in GOOD conditions (remember, any worse than good VFR then I'm not going ahead). Please don't mistake inexperience for being foolhardy. I am able to recognse when something is too much for me and cancel where appropriate.

Would really appreciate your feedback.

QDMQDMQDM

26th Jun 2004, 11:29

I've posted about this before and I haven't been to Mull, but if you had seen the Warrior nearly fail to get out of Eggesford 4-up a couple of months ago you would be thinking even harder about this. I know you're not foolhardy, but I see a hell of a lot of critical numbers in your flight planning. Good luck to you, but I like a lot of margin myself, not a little.

Why overstretch yourself on a first long trip? Plan to take one friend and plan to stop at Carlisle for fuel. With no offence to Warrior lovers, these things are dogs at gross weight and three passengers who don't know about aviation is three people to look after and calm down just when you don't want to, just when the weather is going down in Mull.

Don't make this into a marginal aircraft for this trip. Be kind to yourself.

QDM

Genghis the Engineer

26th Jun 2004, 14:05

[EGCF] It's not personal, I assure you. I know Warriors fairly well, and have flown into Mull a few times (in fact may do so on my own holidays this summer).

A lovely spot with wind that convinently is channelled right down the runway, but nonetheless Glenforsa is not a particularly easy approach and runway, and I know to my personal cost that Warriors are not good short field machines. At a time when I had rather less experience than I do now (but still probably four times what you have at present) I bent a PA28-161, overrunning a runway, in conditions where I was on-paper well inside the safety margins, but experience hadn't yet taught either me to be far more cautious, or the finer points of PA28 short field technique. I'd just hate to see somebody else do something similar.

Incidentally, if you are looking to combine climbing and flying, you'd be far better off aiming for Broadford on the Isle of Skye, which is admittedly unserviced most of the time, but is in-sight of the Cullin Ridge, as well as having a longer, easier, and tarmac runway. (Last I was there, I also got to watch two whales playing in Broadford bay on my way out). Nice SYHA hostel in Broadford village, about an hours walk from the airfield.

G

TonyR

26th Jun 2004, 14:25

I feel, particularly Genghis's comments are unfair and based on assumptions

I have been into Glenforsa many times in various a/c and fly from a strip 3-4 days each week so please listen to what has been said by those who know a little about it.

You are a fool if you take a PA28 161 into Glenforsa with 3 or 4 people.

If you cant understand that then get your CFI to explain it.

If your club CFI does not stop you then he or she is a fool also.

Tony

EGCJFlyer

26th Jun 2004, 14:38

Tony R, thanks for your advice but if you read my last post, I have already made it clear that I am going to ferry from Oban to Mull and not land or take off in Glenforsfa with full pax. Please read before commenting. Although what I will say and re-iterate is that I am not foolhardy and won't risk my passengers, mine or anyone else's safety. I do want to go to Mull and if I do and that means shipping pax from Oban then that is what I will do.

I posted for advice and that is what I am taking onboard. If I had no intention of listening and absorbing info then I wouldn't have posted in the first place.

I will say, keep it coming, the more comments on this the better.

cblinton@blueyonder.

26th Jun 2004, 15:18

Besides all, it is afab place and good hosts at the hotel.

Picture of the said strip:ok: http://static.photobox.co.uk/public/images/06/38/7180638.s.jpg?ch=97&rr=19:01:19

PPRuNe Radar

26th Jun 2004, 17:42

You are a fool if you take a PA28 161 into Glenforsa with 3 or 4 people.

If you cant understand that then get your CFI to explain it.

If your club CFI does not stop you then he or she is a fool also.

I am a fool then, having done it at least half a dozen times. I also know of many others who do on an occasional basis.

However, each time I have worked out weight for the landing and take off (including fuel burn to get there which would reduce the weight which existed on departure from my home base). We have never been at max weight of course (no heavyweights on board) and I would agree that that would be pushing the envelope a bit when you factor in the CAA take off performance limits to do so. Interestingly, it looks doable on max weight in the Archer I now fly, but a little too close to my own personal safety margin !!

On each occasion I have had about 500' spare (to the 50' height in the POH) after making the calculations and using the graph supplied by Piper.

In reality, the aircraft has actually performed slightly better than the calculations, but then that is what the safety factoring is all about and to be expected.

I also make a mental decision point where if acceleration is not up to scratch then I will scrub the take off with plenty of time to stop.

In all cases the runway has been dry and in good condition and the aircraft has had a relatively newly reconditioned engine.

So with careful planning, and experience, as well as a good airframe .... it can be, and is, done.

I would echo the thoughts of others though, that it is not to be attempted by those who don't have short strip experience or haven't operated off an easier grass field and know how to handle the aircraft on that surface. It is not the kind of place to build up non existent experience in operating your aircraft close to, or at, its limits.

Like everything in aviation, there is risk involved, otherwise none of us would go flying. But provided you do the sums, add on all the extra factors for safety, and are not flying a pig of an aircraft, then it is certainly achievable.

The only overrun I have heard of on Mull was by a PA32 Cherokee Six which had 7 people on board and ended up taking half the perimeter barbed wire fence with it when getting airborne. In spite of the fuel tank being punctured and leaking, the pilot continued all the way back to Edinburgh ... where the CAA representatives were waiting to have a chat with him. I think he was charged with endangering the safety of an aircraft.

EGCJFlyer seems to me to know his limitations and has a plan to deal with them. I don't expect to read about any mishap when he makes his trip to Mull :ok:

Whirlybird

26th Jun 2004, 17:54

EGCJFlyer,

Believe me, I don't want to put anyone off flying. And I don't think anyone else here does either. But...

You say this is your first long trip. Have you flown for an long as eight hours before, in unfamiliar territory, over such a short period of time? Have you taken up three non-flying friends before? Have these particular friends been in a light aircraft for such long periods before?

I ask all this because fatigue and stress are strange things. As someone mentioned, looking after non-flying passengers can be tiring. And long flights, doing all the radio and nav, and particularly all the decision making yourself, is also exhausting. You don't notice it at the time; that sort of fatigue is quite insidious. But you can start to make mistakes, or just not be quite ready to cope if things don't quite go according to plan. If you get overloaded (mentally I mean; not talking about the aircraft here), there is no-one to help out, or to recognise that you're overloaded. And you won't recognise it; there just isn't enough of your overworked brain left to stand back and say: "OK, you're overloaded; orbit and chill out".

At your stage, I certainly shouldn't have been doing long flights like this one, with three passengers, to an area of the country with a lot of inhospitable terrain and known for its sudden weather changes. I'm not saying that means that you shouldn't do it; I don't know you, so I can't say that. But do YOU know it? Do you have enough experience to know that you can do this? If you haven't done so, maybe you should work upwards, from something a little less challenging - less passengers or somewhere closer to home or an easier place to land. I don't know if you're over-confident, but I do know that over-confidence is common among low hours pilots. You don't - and can't - know what you don't know.

Unless there are some facts here that you haven't told us, I really think you should take less passengers or go somewhere else. Feel free to think I'm a worrying wimp if you like. But you did ask!

DRJAD

26th Jun 2004, 18:18

EGCJFlyer,

I'd echo Whirlybird's and Genghis's comments ref. flight planning. You're obviously doing your calculations carefully, and taking it seriously, but there cannot be too much care taken - as you've said.

I know it seems a logical impossibility to plan for the unexpected, but as an example, you've planned W&B, you've calculated fuel burn, you've looked at alternates. You must also plan for a vertical profile which does not match your estimates; there might be a lot more climbing, etc., for example, than you want - owing to weather or other factors. Allow, also, a margin for the aircraft weight to have increased slightly since the last weighing.

I also fly from Sherburn, and I know the Warriors (but, with five of them, I'm not sure which you are going for, though the probability is one of the ex-CSE aircraft).

So, plan for the not quite expected. Especially take seriously the impact of fatigue (decision-making fatigue, as Whirly has mentioned).

Above all, and I'm sure you're going to do this, talk it all through with one of the instructors first.

(I'd be looking (if I have four up) to book the Archer for a trip like that - but then, I'm fairly heavy!)

TonyR

26th Jun 2004, 20:58

EGCJFlyer; - 70 HOURS

PPRuNe Radar; Probibly a few more ??

I dont think any PPL with so little experience should go there without a more experienced pilot or instructor with him.

IMOP, EGCJFlyer does not even have enough experience to know why he should not attempt this flight.

But he will probobly get away with it and tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

Tony

PS. When you have helped drag four people out of a PA28 161 that has just ripped it's wings off after a 600 M ground run, then you may look at things differently.

I would be the first to encourage you to expand your experience but it appeared to me that your mind was made up no matter what any one said.

Fat, Dumb & Happy

26th Jun 2004, 21:31

So that leaves me with 182lbs (83kgs) for fuel which in my calculations is 115 litres (25 imp. gallons) - 8 gallons / hour burn give me an endurance of c. 3 hours Maybe it's pedantry, but I never count reserve fuel in endurance calculations - I'd have said that 25 galls gives you an endurance of 2 hours, with a 1 hour reserve.
Awaiting more details of winds on the day, assume a flight time to Prestwick (for fuel) from LBA at 100knts/hour 1hr 25 mins mins point to point + 20 mins on ground at LBA + 25 mins approach at Prestwick gives a total of 2hrs 10 mins with 50 mins reserveAll sounds a bit marginal - 100kts groundspeed could well be optimistic. If you're expecting to use controlled airspace have you allowed for any possible reroutings that might be necessary?

As another Scottish-based Warrior-flyer I'd do it slightly differently. Personally I'd go to Oban, and stay somewhere nice like Lerags House (much recommended by various friends of mine, very aviation friendly I understand). You then have the option to assess the options (esp. weather, which will be like nothing you've seen!) locally before setting off for Mull, ideally in two trips. Getting in can be just as challenging as getting out!

PPRuNe Radar

26th Jun 2004, 21:32

Sorry TonyR ... I may have misinterpreted your 'not taking one in to Mull' with 4 up as a generic brushing of such people as fools.

If that's the case then I apologise and agree that a low hours pilot should get more experience first, perhaps even a specific check out with an instructor to ensure that their short field techniques and performance calculations are totally up to scratch :ok:

My first trip in to Mull (in the Warrior with four up at least) was with about 175hrs.

Credit to EGCJFlyer for asking the questions though. I think he is thinking more about the issues than you give him credit for ;)

TonyR

26th Jun 2004, 22:18

Perhaps my choice of words was out of order and as such I would apologise to EGCJFlyer, but I felt he was hopeing we would all tell him to go, perhaps when he really knew this may not be the best thing.

I sometimes wonder why pilots do not sit down with a CFI and discuss such flights.

Are some CFIs not interested?

This forum is a great place for advice, but if I was his CFI I would load the a/c to max and let him try it on a long r/w.

Also those of us who live in the North west know about strong winds sometimes comming without warning and catching the best out.

Stay safe

Tony

nosewheelfirst

26th Jun 2004, 22:21

I fly a cherokee from Scotland and have been into Mull with 3 people onboard in good wx. I am also a low hours PPL.

From what I have seen EGCJFlyer has already done good planning and has good ideas of what his limitations are and that of the aircraft.

Some of the replies are a good indication on why there are so many low hour PPL's sticking to the Local Flying Area of their home base. He has done the planning and the calculations and has plans for if the wx is marginal.

I look forward to sharing the skies up here with somebody willing to stretch their wings and go further. They will also have hours worth 5 times as much as doing local flights.

Now about the weather...

:ok:

Skinny Runt

26th Jun 2004, 23:18

Bo11ocks !! I just spent 20 minutes typing a long reply .. and the damn site lost it ... aaargh..... and i can't take that long as I'm up for an early shift at 5.30 .... :( :mad:

In summary.

I too got my PPL around 45 hrs (well done) :)
Strangely I got checked out on grass .. after 70hrs... at Gigha .. in a Warrior .. the week before I did something similar to what you intend... and you'll never guess what happened ? :hmm:

I had a superb time.

I headed off to a 700m grass strip in the Aberdeen zone. I was quite nervous, as this was my first overnight landaway and I was more worried about the weather closing in and stopping me getting back to work ....... foolish notion .... I got better ;)

Anyway, over the next 3 days I flew 8 pals all around the Banffshire area, including 3 kids who had never ever flown before, and I made their days !!

Right I really need to get to my bed.............

PS

I also learnt about aborted take-offs. Into sun I failed to spot/sense that the parking brake was on one notch. On grass it was less noticeable (imagine not noticing that on tarmac), but when I got to 47 kts, and no more, I knew something was wrong and aborted in plenty of time.

I now have a rule of thumb, learned in Canada on a mountain flying course, if you ain't at 70% of takeoff speed halfway down the runway ... abort. It is a good discipline to get into the habit of picking an abort point, and practice making the decision in your mind.

Just as I would recommend taking some time and trouble to note weights, winds and actually measure your take-off runs, and then compare them to the book figures. Good exercise, good experience and especially if it is one particular plane you fly, a good way to learn about your machine.

Was I foolish ? I don't think so. I felt it was within my capabilities. Like you, I planned and planned. I had alternates. I discussed it with an instructor beforehand.

And I did 7 hrs of 'new experience' flying - even landed at Feshiebridge on the way home !

Now. What about lifejackets ? If you are planning on island hopping I would recommend them.

I wouldn't recommend Gigha with 3 or 4 people.

I would exercise caution at Plockton. There are some VERY tall trees on the approach to 20/climbout to 02 - be warned they look significantly more than 50 ft on climbout, so I wouldn't be happy heavy unless there was a pretty strong northerly, and then you have the turbulence problems!!

Leeds to Prestwick ... 1h30min ?
Prestwick to Oban ... 40 min ?
Prestwick to Mull 50 min ?

2 legs in one day. Seems quite a nice sensible plan if you ask me.

Without seeming to scorn the cautious advice, I agree with the sentiments that we should all be encouraged/challenged to spread our wings and get out of our local flying areas. I have seen clubs where the CFI seems to think the safest way to fly is to stay on the ground. I think they are in the wrong job.

We aim to minimise the risks, but flying by its very nature is a challenge - that's why we do it - isn't it ?

Sure it is foolish to boldly go .. but not if you have a well thought out plan ... a bit of practice ... and clear alternative options.

jayemm

27th Jun 2004, 09:51

EGCJFlyer,

I'm a 250 hrs PPL who did the Islay, North Connell (Oban), Glenforsa trip about 4 weeks ago, in a 160hp Warrior.

I flew up from Blackbushe, and then based myself at Islay, simply because I have friends who run the best distillery on the Island there (PM me if you're interested).

Islay is closed, strictly, on Sats (after 1030 local) and Sundays. I made prior arrangements, and had private sole use of the airfield for the whole weekend; it was wonderful. However, you will probably need to land once before it closes to pay the fees and make the arrangements. Very friendly and helpful people both at the airfield and on the island. A very different world from the Berks that I'm familiar with! Islay is a substantial Island with a one or two hours flying to be had going around it.

I flew up Jura, across to Colonsay (tried to see the famous Whirpool at the head of the straights, but couldn't find it), to Iona and then to Mull and Glenforsa, with 3-up. I planned this so that fuel was low (well within safety limits) for Glenforsa (followed by a full refuel at Oban). Although the grass was wet, the field is much smoother than Rochester or Compton Abbas, and the ground (at that time) was firm. I'd definitely ring ahead to get the field conditions, wind being the most important. I was told I was lucky that day because all the three windsocks were pointing in the same direction! Even when quite calm, the wind can mess you about on the approach, so take care.

Then to Oban for fuel and shopping, then back to Islay alongside the famous "Paps of Jura" during a beautiful sunset over the Atlantic.

I enjoyed the whole trip and want to do it again, but I'd say, do all the calculations, include all the contingency factors and believe what the numbers say.

Based on my experience, my advice would be this:

VFR flying is a dream around the Islands because it's very easy to identify where you are. It's the weather that can create the stress, and if you've been flying for several hours this can be risky. The local weather can change very quickly. I took off from Islay one morning in clear skies, and had to turn back from the Mull of Kintyre because of low cloud and sea fog. So plan alternates, and be prepared to turn back, because it's not worth pushing on when you're in amongst 2000ft to 3000ft mountains, which is what most of the islands are really.

You'll have a memorable time, get your pax to take loads of photos and tell us how it went. (I've got a photo of Glenforsa on right base if you want to PM me)

boomerangben

27th Jun 2004, 11:41

EGCJ flyer,

I'm not a fixed wing pilot, but can I suggest that you book a trip with an instructor to get some practice some short field stuff at MATW? Having said that, it sounds as if you are the sort of person who would have worked that one out for yourself. Your idea to ferry your pax in from Oban is a good one.

I can see that some of the posts here could be seen as being negative, but I am sure that the posters dont intend to be. What they are trying to do is impress the importance of airmanship on you and that is no bad thing. You have to go out there and try these things for yourself, but make sure that you are properly prepared (remember the 6 Ps). I personnally wish I had been more adventurous when I was hour building (from Sherburn as it happens).

I think the weather will be the main player in your trip. The weather in Yorkshire is usually very different from Scotland. In fact the weather can change dramatically from one part of the West Coast to another. So far the Scottish summer has been notable by its absence. If I was you, plan the Mull trip, but have a plan b ready if the West Coast is wxed out. Above all enjoy yourself and fly safe.

EGCJFlyer

27th Jun 2004, 21:47

Dear all, thanks so much for all your posts - more than I ever anticipated I'd get. Now to reply to you all that took the time to offer your time and advice to me.......

Genghis/TonyR - never took anything personally if that's what you thought. I appreciate your comments. My only question to you both is this - what's the point in an aircraft having limits if you can't use them?? I assume the Piper and all other aircraft manufacturers allow some slack in their numbers and quote the worst case. I will use those worst case figures and never exceed them, as was visible in my numbers that I quoted to you...

TonyR - as for being a fool - I thought that a little unfair given that I fully intend discussing this with an instructor, have spent nummerous hours planning all the detail and last of all posted on this website for further advice!! Mark of a fool to me is someone who wouldn't adequately plan, not discuss with anyone and certainly not bother seeking advice from th aviation community! Last thing Tony, I'd be the last person to knock anyone's advice, please don't make assumptions about me when you don't know me, I have altered some plans based on your suggestion and once again, if I was going to do it without listening to people, I'd never have posted in the first place.

Whirlybird - Comments on safety are taken fully onboard. Whilst I appreciate that a lot of low hour PPLs are indeed over confident, I am the last person to through myself into something I wasn't capable of. Whilst I want to have a good time flying, I also would like to see the remaining 50+ years of my life (29 by the way!)

DRJAD - if you are around Sherburn in the next few weeks, wouldn't mind meeting you for a beer and a chat?? pm me if this is ok with you??

Fat, Dumb & Happy - if you'd read my earlier posts, you'd have seen that I am going to Oban and doing two trips to Mull to ferry my pax. and the same on my return.

Nosewheelfirst - absolutely agree with you - if I spend anymore time (as I've done for the last year or so) doing flights in the local area, I am soon going to get bored and pack in flying as it offers no more challenges!

Skinny Runt - would love to chat with you a bit more, as you seem to have info re. local area. Can you pm me please?

All - once again, thanks for your comments. I have found this most useful in determining what, when and how I do it. Please, if you have anymore, through it my way. And if you're ever planning a trip to Sherburn, let me know and have a beer or two at the bar!!

Thanks very much.

TonyR

27th Jun 2004, 22:03

EGCJFlyer

If you pay a visit to Ireland next, I'll buy the beer.

Do get on as many long trips as you can and try to get some flights with other pilots.

I took a pilot with me to Plymouth today from Belfast, he has 200 hours and had never been across the Irish sea, now I think he will be hard to keep local.

When are you going to Glenforsa?

Tony

Whirlybird

27th Jun 2004, 22:22

EGCJFlyer,

Enjoy the scenery and free jammy dodgers at Oban, and say hi to Paul for me...remind him of the two women in the C152 who based themselves there for three days last summer. Also take his advice on wx etc; he's a good guy and he knows the area. The approach to one of the runways at Oban (can't remember numbers) involves turning just before the cliff/hill and is quite fun, and a favourite spectator sport at Oban is watching and criticising everyone's landings, all in fun of course. Nice place. Even if you don't manage to get any further, you'll have a good time there; I guarantee it. Incidentally, lots of people don't even get there - lots of 3000+ ft mountains to cross first, so don't feel bad if you don't make it...but I hope you do as it's a fabulous place and one of my favourite airfields. :ok:

Finally, to you and several others...I don't think anyone is trying to put you off, or get you to stay in the local area. Of course you need to push yourself a bit. But "a bit" are the operative words, IMHO. Flying to the Highlands, taking three passengers for a trip, landing at a short strip - all these are good things to do and good ways to stretch yourself. I just personally feel that doing ALL OF THEM AT ONCE so early on is too much. :eek: I think that's what's setting off warning signals in the bit of my brain that...well, that controls warning signals. The fact that nosewheelfirst and Slinny Runt can do it safely doesn't mean you can; we're all different. I'm not talking about aircraft handling ability or weather here; I'm talking about those rather nebulous human factors that no-one really knows about - the stuff you find out for yourself with experience. I've learned more about myself over the last few years than I have about aircraft handling....and it's important to do that You haven't had time to do that yet. So if you're going to go - and I think you are - please bear all this in mind, OK?

This is all said with the best of intentions. I too was once a very new PPL who gave myself lots of challenges, and with hindsight, I think I did too much too soon. A more experienced pilot told me so at the time, and I didn't listen. I survived to tell the tale...but I might not have done. And doing it all more slowly, over another year or so would have done no harm. That's why I'm saying all this, and I think most of the apparently negative replies you've been getting are saying the same kind of thing.

Daysleeper

27th Jun 2004, 22:25

I assume the Piper and all other aircraft manufacturers allow some slack in their numbers and quote the worst case

Figures from manufacturers are used to sell aircraft. They are usually unfactored and produced by test pilots. By that I mean a genius has gone out and flown the pants of a brand new aeroplane to land/take off in just that distance. That is why we add safety factors (there used to be a good pink AIC about this). In a knackered old crate with an inexperianced pilot you will struggle to even get to the factored figures.

Still if you do decide to ignore that, dont try to climb over the ridge at Mull, I did in 1996 when I had 100 hours total. In the club C150 when I took a mate there for lunch. I absolutely sh*t myself and we cleared the saddle between the hills by about 100 feet if that. Should have made the turn back out over the bay and gone round the hill.
Nice luch though.

Other advice, life jackets, ELT. Raft. GPS good weather an watch out for the wind. Even a clear day can be fierce windy and that generates huge rotor and downdraught.

Lot of good advice on this thread, dont write us all off as a bunch of old farts trying to prevent you having fun we all have your best interest at heart.

Deeko01

28th Jun 2004, 10:49

Bro,

Your planning looks good for this trip, fingers crossed the weather will be good, see you at Oban on the 11th hopefuly in my hired C172!!!

Deeko

Jobby Wheecher

28th Jun 2004, 23:49

Genghis the Engineer

29th Jun 2004, 06:38

So far as I can see, nobody's done that. Virtually all of these posts have been something like "it's risky, and you really should think about ____, but if you get it right, you'll have a great time", which is not quite the same thing.

G

Jobby Wheecher

29th Jun 2004, 09:19

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MichaelJP59

29th Jun 2004, 09:31

Imagine if those fools The Wright Brothers had posted on this forum ...."we're thinking about building a grand flying machine that will get us (and our pals) off the ground and fly us over the sea ....... to Mull "

Ah, but those Wright Brothers are a good example, they were most meticulous and careful, and worked their way slowly and carefully towards their objective.

EGCJFlyer, good luck and I look forward to the trip report, it sounds like exactly the sort of thing I'd like to do when (and if!) I get my PPL.

On a related topic, do aero engines generally develop their quoted horsepower and are they tested for it? Just that I've quite a bit of experience running cars on a dynamometer and they rarely reach their quoted power figures.

- Michael