PA28 v DR400

[Tango Oscar]

My group has recently decided to sell it's existing mount, and buy something newer.

Some in the group seem to prefer a PA28, but others (including myself) would prefer a DR400. Eother way, it must be a 180hp basic type.

Can anyone help with pro's and con's of a DR400 over a PA28. I prefer the DR400 because the visability is so much better, it has a stick rather than yoke, and I don't like the idea of only one door (I often fly across the channel, and the thought of everyone trying to scramble out of one door sends a shiver down my spine)

Any help appreciated.

Tango.

[Flyin'Dutch']

TO,

I don't think it is you that needs convincing but your syndicate mates.

The DR 400 has better visibility, goes faster for the same HP and fuel burn, easier access through that sliding canopy, more space, better load capacity, crisper handling etc etc etc.

2 Drawbacks; one it is supported by Robin who can be a bit patchy at times and secondly you can not stick an 'N' on the side and get an FAA IR to fly IFR in Europe.

I used to have a DR400 and never had anyone who had flown any of the usual light GA stuff that was not more impressed with it than their AA5s, 172, cherokees etc

So maybe let them have a go in one and let that do the hard sell for you

;)

FD

[owenlars]

Can only echo FD's comments. The Robin is much nicer, (don't forget it's wood and likes hangars much more than being left outside).

FD

Why can't you stick an N on the side, they fly them in the States don't they?

Owen

[Flyin'Dutch']

Why can't you stick an N on the side, they fly them in the States don't they?

Not the 400 series. Not certified by the FAA (one of their very few 'mistakes')

;)

FD

[Final 3 Greens]

From a handling POV, the DR400 wins every time.

From a sheer practicality POV, I'd take an Archer.

If the single door is a show stopper for you, then don't consider one at all, since you'll never feel comfortable and won't enjoy flying it across the Channel.

[BlueRobin]

Parts availability has been mentioned above. Surely you are less likely to have your boat waiting in the shop for parts to arrive with e.g. a Piper, which produces more aircraft, than a Robin?

A Maule would be a better choice naturellement ;)

[TonyR]

From a sheer practicality POV, I'd take an Archer.

Why?

The DR400 is a much nicer aircraft, it gets my vote

Tony

[ACW 335]

DR400 is lovely to fly - u feel like you are sitting on top of it! Great all round viz and lovely handling.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Some in the group seem to prefer a PA28, but others (including myself) would prefer a DR400. Eother way, it must be a 180hp basic type.

I haven't checked the POHs, so this is purely subjective, but I find that a 160hp DR400 performs better than a 180hp PA28.

Plus points for the DR400 are handling, visibility (especially compared to an Archer 3 - the windscreen is like a letterbox slot), speed, rate of climb, and load carrying ability. Other benefits are easy access through the sliding canopy, sticks rather than yokes, useful cubby holes for storing maps, easy-to-repair wooden construction, and easy maintenance at just about any French airfield if you go touring.

On the downside, people complain about spare parts availability, the nosewheel is prone to shimmy and sometimes has problems whereby the steering doesn't re-engage properly on landing (in flight the nosewheel disengages from the steering mechanism, and does not turn when you apply rudder), the cabin is a bit cramped for 4, they don't all have external baggage doors, hangarage is almost essential, the wings sometimes fall off (it's only happened a couple of times, but there are various ADs on wing spar inspections), the seats get wet if you get in while it's raining, and competent maintenance in the UK is probably easier to find for the Piper.

On balance, I'd go for the DR400 every time. An alternative which is much cheaper would be a 180hp DR300, which has a slightly more dated interior but nicer handling.

A point worth knowing is that you can re-engine DR400s (in France at least - I guess the same applies in the UK), so you can buy a cheap tired 120hp ex flying school trainer, tidy up the inside, re-cover it, and put in a new 160 or 180hp engine, and save yourself a fair sum.

[Send Clowns]

Have you seen the payload restrictions of an Archer? I was flying to Cherbourg the other day, 3 up, only could have 38 gallons of fuel. If you need the speed, the Robin has more (bit of an odd cockpit, but seems OK for those used to it) but if not the only really practical PA-28 is a 161 (or a 201R of course!). The Robin is nicer to fly, even if it doesn't have the handling of the 200. Stick would decide for me though!

[Flyin'Dutch']

I can't say there is much difference in handling between the 300 and 400 series. The DR253 is a bit more pnderous but still a delight to fly. The lower sill on the 400 series is nicer and the sliding canopy makes getting in and out a lot easier than the bat doors.

Pretty sure you can re-engine the DRs (now even with a Thielert) but what you have to bear in mind is that most of the smaller engined ones will only have the main tank in the fuselage which is not so much of an issue with the lower fuel burn associated with the smaller engines but more so if you start using 30-35 lts per hour with the 160/180s.

The smaller ones also do not have a bagage door.

In the cruise there is very little between the smallest (108) and biggest (180) engine, the main difference is the acceleration on grass, climb performance and load capacity.

Interestingly enough the DR500 with the 200hp engine and VP prop does not perform any better than the 400 with the 180 fixed pitch prop. The 500 is a few inches wider though.

Everyone fallen asleep yet? ;)

FD

[DOC.400]

Gotta be a DR400!!!

Four up, full fuel, 60kgs of luggage, 130kt cruise, 4-5 hour range and short field capability with practice and not so lightly loaded...

A totally biased DOC.400 ;)

[A and C]

The Robin will move more load further , faster out of a smaller strip for the same fuel burn per hour.

Why do you ever think that a PA28 is a contestant ?

[Final 3 Greens]

TonyR

Why?

It's tin , DR400s like hangars.

Getting bits is easier for PA28s.

I've no argument about the nicer handling aircraft, but from a practicality angle the metaphor that comes to mind is Ford vs Citroen.

[DOC.400]

"It's tin , DR400s like hangars."

True.

"Getting bits is easier for PA28s."

True too!! And don't I know it!

"Ford vs Citroen."

I'd like to think more Ford v. Bugatti or Venturi or other rare French car manufacturer......if you've ever visited the factory at Dijon, it is more akin to assembly of Morgan cars or Aston Martin, and I've been to them all. Attention to detail is stunning.

DOC

[Monocock]

It depends what you want.

If you want to be buying something that someone has lovingly built, designed for speed and agility and looks stylish then buy a Robin.

If you want to buy a airborne Cortina that's up to you but don't blame us when you look enviously at the smooth guy as he pulls up at the clubhouse in his DR400.

DR400 = Wiener Schnitzel
PA28 = McDonalds burger patty


DR400 = Gin & Tonic
PA28 = Pernod and lucozade


DR400 = Cuban Havana
PA28 = Benson and Hedges


DR400 = Dom Perignon Brut
PA28 = Babycham


DR400 = Portugal FC
PA28 = England FC


DR400 = Goodwood
PA28 = Panshanger


DR400 = Eton
PA28 = Grange Hill


DR400 = Princess Stephanie
PA28 = Bet Lynch


Need I go further?

[DOC.400]

:D Like yer work Monocock!!!

A TOTALLY BIASED SMOOTH DOC.400

[cubflyer]

Its got to be the DR400, so much nicer to fly, faster, roomier, better viz, easier to get in and out, better strip aircraft.
The only disadvantage I can really see is if you want to keep the aircraft outside. A DR400 really needs a hangar. Ive flown DR400s a lot and various models of PA-28 quite a bit less, but the DR400 wins hands down. Cant say about spares and maintenance as I only flew Club aircraft. As it was in France, there never seemed to be a problem with spare parts. Another interesting comparison was a trip to the PFA rally up from Toulouse. I was in a DR400 160hp fixed pitch prop, my friends in a TB-10 180hp, constant speed prop. Both aircraft two up. The DR400 got off the ground quicker, cruised faster and landed shorter!

[IO540]

A hangar is £4000/year plus VAT where I am :O

A TB10, new for new, is probably not a good comparison because the TB family production is coming to an end, and a TB10 has been very expensive for some years now. But TB build quality is noticeably better than the build quality of any other new GA aircraft I have recently seen and in that I include Diamond and Cirrus.

[Mike Cross]

My choice would also be a DR400 if it was hangared, much nicer to fly and better performance.

One thing to watch. When getting in you need to support your weight as you lower yourself into the seat. The natural place to put your hand is on the seat back - dont!

I had just landed and parked, reached up and behind me to unlatch the canopy when there was a loud bang and the seat back collapsed. I know I am a fat b@$t@rd but not that fat. It was a fatigue crack of the seat frame that left me flat on my back, not a good idea had it happened a few minutes earlier.

Mike

[ozplane]

If the issue is tin Piper versus wooden Robin why don't you get a tin Robin!. I flew a Robin 3000 for the first time yesterday and was very impressed. It's different, which helps the posing factor if that's important, and doesn't lose out a great deal to the DR 400 on speed or payload.
It's a genuine 4-seater and has typical Robin visibilty.There's one for sale on Just Plane Trading BTW.

[A and C]

Not a bad aircraft but it won't even look at short field !.

The Whole thing about the DR400 is that it will fly a good payload out of a short strip , cruise fast and land safely on a short strip.

There has yet to be a modern light aircraft to come close to it ( some Miles aircraft may be able to give it a run for it's money ) and this is why the metal aircraft brigade have not been able to kill the DR400 off !.

I suspect that the DR400 production will end when a new Carbon composite four seater hits the market , I find it no coinsidence that the new "Magnum" looks for all the world like a high tech Robin.

[Hairyplane]

I bought my DR400 Regent new in Jan 01 and plan to sell it in 06 for a new one.

I have flown my aircraft for 360 trouble-free hours and it still looks like brand new.

I operate from a farm strip - at MAUW of 1100kg the (unfactored) take off is 320 metres.

Empty is 635kg. The Regent is therefore genuine 4 seater with a 60kg baggage limit in the locker.

Shimmy? Never? They have either sorted this or there is a fault.

Nose wheel steering? Easy to understand and learn to accomodate. Yes it does sometimes fail to engage, usually as a consequence of an aft CofG and a greaser of a landing or loading heavy bags, rear seat passengers and full fuel. In the latter case, the nose can rise beyond the steering mech.

Rather than stamp on the pedals and probably contribute to a shimmy problem in later years, all you need do is gently dab the brakes, the nose will drop and the steering engage. Voila!

If parked, you can pull the nose down by the prop blades or lift the rear fuz..

Parts? Never needed any apart from when the cowling cracked (mine had the new swoopy profile and they have since beefed them up internally to prevent cracks) and guess what?

Within 3 days I had a box with a pot of paint and some new fasteners in it on my doorstep direct from the factory?

Cost?

A big fat zero. Not even the carriage.

Wings falling off? Careful there. In 10 million flying hours (I think I have that right?) not one accident has been postively attributed to defective manufacture.

The in-flight breakup in France - debated extensively here several months back - was indeed due to a broken spar.

The accident aircraft was one of a short production period where better inspection procedures these days would not allow the 'untidy' spar bonding discovered in the accident to happen again.

However, tests conducted proved that even bonded as it was, the spar would still have exceeded its design loading by a significant degree.

Regent speeds similar to the smaller ones? Nah!

The Regent will fly at 135kts - I tend to fly at around 125 for better range (240 litres capacity/ 40 litres ph)

The smaller ones will cruise around 95-100kts - I used to instruct on them.

Hangarage - I have seen inside the wing of a very high time aircraft - rarely hangared. It was beautiful but with a little bit of rot in the wing-tip fillet where an untreated crack had allowed water ingress - it couldn't dry and a bit of rot was the consequence. However, unlike wooden planes where the airframe spares grown in the ground, corrosion in your spammer can write the thing off or cost you big bucks.

Look inside a 30 year old spammer and then do the same with a Robin.

OK - they are best hangared but it is always best to keep your aircraft under cover anyway.

Mine is not only hangared but is always washed after every flight and then completely cloaked in Cambrais finest.

I dont know what it is but there is such a feelgood factor in the Robin cockpit. The transparencies are fantastic, plenty of legroom and none of this high panel/ letter box screen with the Robin - I agree that you seem to sit on it rather than in it.

A wonderful aircraft. I cannot imagine owning any other tourer.

I dont fancy the corpulent 500 - a compromise indeed just to achieve a cockpit width increase of 4 inches. You dont need it.

There is a lot to be said for buying new.

They keep their values well and sell easily. Finance companies love them.

If you want to discuss the aircraft with a satisfied owner and not a salesman - PM me and I'll call you.

A flight in mine (I am near Banbury) is a possibility too.

All the best

HP

[DOC.400]

Blimey Hairy -you have justy taken the words out of my mouth -saved a bit of typing, anyways.......:D

Will be at Sandown Sunday if anybody wants a look at Dijon's finest!!

No, not the mustard, but it's still as hot..... ;)

DOC

[Sir George Cayley]

So then its the Robin. Glad thats settled

At least there will be hundreds available to choose from as opposed to the lesser Cherrytree which no-one in their right mind would buy.


oooo er? something wrong. Lots of American metal not much French wood.

What am I missing?

Apart from a reality check

Sir George -I love Jodels - Cayley

[Tango Oscar]

Thanks everyone for your very imformative replies. I think I am making progress in persuading the group to go for the Robin.

I have been told by a Robin owner, that the 160hp version is the best varient to go for, as the performance figures are very similar to the 180hp, but the fuel burn is less. Do other owners concur with this ? Could anybody advise what the cruise speed is for a 160hp and how many litres per hour it would burn. (HairyPlane - I'm assuming yours is a 180hp ?)

One other point brought to my attention is the brakes. Apparently they are hand operated, and very poor. Can anyone elaborate on this ?

As always, any help appreciated.

TO

[robin]

Not many 160s on the UK register as compared to the Regents.

Wonder why??

[Aerobatic Flyer]

I plan on 125kts and 32 litres / hour. It's possible to coax 130kts out of one of the 160hp DR400's I fly. That one, however, has a differently profiled cowling to its slower brethren. I'm not a DR400 expert, but something was changed in the mid 1990s, and the newer ones go faster.

As for the brakes, they've had toe brakes for years. The early ones had a handbrake, which was carried over from the DR300. In the DR300, it works well enough once you get used to it, and differential braking is available at full rudder deflection, so you can manouver in tight spaces without any trouble.

[DOC.400]

We average 8.8 imp. gallons an hour on a 180. That's with 2500rpm set to give an indicated 120-135kts depending on weather, height, QNH, how clean the prop is (honest -a quick scrape off of grass and bugs is another five kts!!!) and how well one leans off!!

Skip the 160 and get the best you can.

And the hand brake went years ago........Mind you, made slowing down interesting whilst juggling stick, throttle and brake.....:eek:

Current toe brakes amongst the best and certainly entertaining on wet grass and snow.......:O

DOC

[TonyR]

the 160hp version is the best varient to go for, as the performance figures are very similar to the 180hp

It would supprise you how much difference the extra 20hp makes.

Go for the 180

Tony