CRC takes its toll at BA.

[Hot Wings]

Rumour has it that BA have lost 80+ employees each month as a result of the Criminal Record Check required for an airside pass. The numbers are expected to increase significantly as many employees have delayed their check until the last possible moment ie. July.

As far as flight crew are concerned, there is one BA Captain who forgot to renew his shotgun licence. He renewed it after a couple of months but then he failed his CRC as a result of having owned an unlicenced firearm! He has now "retired".

It seems as though the world has gone mad. I just feel sorry for those people who have lost their jobs/houses/marriages as a result of this stupidity.

[Shuttleworth]

Yeah - this whole process is sick.
The foreign employees, and there are lots of them, are unable to be checked at all!
So tell me what contribution to safety is this making?

[Roobarb]

Apparently this figure is rumoured to conveniently include some tens of pilots who have abandoned ship for greener pastures. A Trojan horse for embarrassing statistics.

http://www.80scartoons.8k.com/roobarb10wee.gif

I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can't beat

[hobie]

quote .....

"As far as flight crew are concerned, there is one BA Captain who forgot to renew his shotgun licence. He renewed it after a couple of months but then he failed his CRC as a result of having owned an unlicenced firearm! He has now "retired".

I wonder if MOL would do that to his Aircrew ? ..... I would like to think he would not!!!

[Captain Airclues]

hobie

I wonder if MOL would do that to his Aircrew?

I think that would depend on where the person was based. These checks are required by the BAA for anyone who has airside access to a BAA airport. The only option would be to move the crewmember to a base that did not fly to the UK. Unfortunately BA does not have that option.

Airclues

[hobie]

so BA really had no say in the effective termination of the Skippers career due to a "paper Slip-up" ....... I didn't realize that it was BAA ...... thanks for the clarification CA

do you ever wonder "who is winning the War?" because it sure isn't the good guys !!!!

cheers .....

[spannersatcx]

It's not just BAA, it's all airports I believe it is a DOT requirement.

[Sleeve Wing]

>As far as flight crew are concerned, there is one BA Captain who forgot to renew his shotgun licence. He renewed it after a couple of months but then he failed his CRC as a result of having owned an unlicenced firearm! He has now "retired".<

Just nit-picking but I understood that a shotgun is not a firearm - it is not rifled. Shotguns require a Shotgun Certificate, not a licence.
Maybe he should have fought this insanity.

Sleeve. :confused:

[Da Dog]

This whole issue is racist:mad:

You could be a national of any other country in the world and a criminal, yet these checks would never show you up.:*

[HZ123]

As I am located alongside the people department I can assure you that the figure of 80 is not correct. BA senior management would be over the moon if we could get rid of 80 bodies per month.

[bjcc]

Having a criminal record does not disqualify you from having an airside pass.

Failing to register a shotgun as the result of a memory slip certainly would not disqualify you, and unless the captain appeared in court and was convicted (not very lightly!) he wouldn't have a CRO record anyway.

As I recall from filling in mine, the question is there as a matter of trust. ie you 'forget' to mention a conviction for attempted murder then you can't really be very trustworthy can you? Also the form mentions something about who the information will be given too, and provides an envelope for you to seal your admission into.

Like all vetting the idea is to reveal anything that makes you suspetable to blackmail, which was why in the 80's if you wanted to be positivly vetted and were gay and did not mention it, you lost your vetting status. This is the same, if you have told the vetting agency you have a conviction it becomes difficult to blackmail you...

There are many other jobs where you have to reveal any criminal conviction, its not just air transport being singled out.

It may interest you to know that as a Policeman at LHR in the 90's I had to fill one in, in spite of the fact that I had obviously been checked when I joined and as they had my fingerprints if I had of been convicted of any offence in between times then my bosses would have known.

[ZodiacDrifter]

the CRC process is not geared at 'airside' passes - it is driven at 'restricted zones' of an airport/airfield...how do I know this? A friend of mine is in the process of trying to persude various operators that they have no requirement to have this type of security pass (less paperwork). And yes, it is a ruling made by the Department for Transport....post various security breaches..such as the reporter who managed to get into sensitive areas!! I know it's all for the sake of protecting the aviation world and travelling public, but it seems like it's yet another pile of red tape to get through!!!:\

[hobie]

quote ....

"As far as flight crew are concerned, there is one BA Captain who forgot to renew his shotgun licence. He renewed it after a couple of months but then he failed his CRC as a result of having owned an unlicenced firearm! He has now "retired".

so this isn't true!!!! ...... well thank goodness for that

:ok:

[bjcc]

This has nothing to do with the BAA. Its a DOT requirement.
There is a presumption that non UK crews have a similar system in thier own countries.

The form is not issued by the BAA, or any other airport operator or airline, but by the UK Vetting agency. They are the ones that conduct the vetting. Read the form its made very clear on that.

As I said before having a criminal record is not a bar to having airside access, or access to 'restricted zones' (The area where the approach lights are on runway 23 at LHR is a restricted zone, its not protected by a fence and used to be a prime spot for spotters.)

Its a question thats asked to test honesty, in the same way as many other questions on the form are.

You may well think its a waste of time, if you do don't fill it in and go get a job at tescos.

[411A]

Thugs and convicted (sometimes not) malcontents airside at British airports?

Whatever will come next?:ooh: :ooh: :E

[Pilot Pete]

Talk about red tape..........

I filled my application in last October. Quoted '10 days' for turnaround. My disclosure turned up just before Christmas. I was not 'in' the office during office hours until mid January. I presented it to the company and was then told it had already expired!!! It turns out it was already several weeks 'old' on the date when I got it and then the 10 weeks passed over my Christmas leave etc.. I take some of the blame for that one.

Re-applied and the website was quoting 9 weeks turnaround. Nine weeks passed so I enquired as to where it was. Turns out they lost a load of applications around that time, presumably mine was one of them. Told to apply online as the turnwaround was again 9 days for online apps. Two weeks passed so phoned the number to be told that turnaround is 9 weeks again and that takes me beyond the end of July for new airside pass issue.........

I give up. Disclosure Scotland please don't tickle me any more, my sides and cheeks are hurting too much.

PP

[normal_nigel]

bjcc

No surprise you were a cop. Jumped up little Hitler were we?

The point most people are trying to make is that the check is yet another ill thought out knee jerk reation from Transec.

What difference does it make if you have a minor un-spent conviction. Does that make you a potential terrorist. No.

More dangerous are the throngs of immigrant workers at LHR who may have serious relevant convictions from abroard that this pathetic little exercise will not show up.

However a baggage handler (or pilot) may well loose his airside pass and therefore his career because of some irrelevent incident earlier in life.

It would seem that, like most cops I know, you are good at neither reading nor listening.

NN

[toon]

like iv'e said before, just another department set up by the UK govenment to make the jobless figures look better, does noubt for security whatsoever ! and we wonder why our taxes are going through the roof !!!

[74Freight]

Waited over three months, still no CRC from disclosure scotland, loads of hassle getting through security as pass is out of date with security people haveing to call superiors etc.

[bjcc]

Normal Nigel

First silly insults are really not helping this discussion, and in any case I would have thought a grown man could have done better, still it almost made me smile.

Second, yes, I can read and listen, perhaps if you re read what I wrote you might learn something. A minor incident in your past is NOT going to result in you losing your job, it can't. There is a thing called spent convictions in the UK and unless you want to work in the Police or some other specified jobs they cannot result in you losing your job. If the offence was more serious well, then you should have declared it when you first applied. Most companies ask, if you 'forgot' to mention it, then hard luck. As I said try reading the form it tells you what will happen to the information.

Now turning to your second point, the 'throngs of immigrant workers at LHR' you mention, yes I agree, and I think you will find that not only do the 'throngs' have to prove thier identity, but, and you may find this suprising, a check can be made in their own country.

You way well think its a pathetic excerise, thats your right. Personaly I don't. I would rather something was done than nothing, instead of hurling silly insults perhaps you would be better employed thinking of a better system and sugesting it to your MP. In the meantime, I now work in the aviation industy, not at an airport, and I had to fill in the same vetting form you do, and as I said if you don't like the idea then you are free to work in some other industry.

[Human Factor]

a check can be made in their own country.

How confident are you that those checks are actually carried out?

[Dash-7 lover]

It took a while for my crc result to come through. Every UK airline has to submit their employees to this process as per DOT requirements and I believe Disclosure Scotland are processing the lot. The delay at the beginning of the year is probably due to all the charter airlines recruiting for the summer months and hence an influx of applications.

If it makes my workplace safer then Im all for it, regardless of the red tape!! Its the same as the proposal for Identity Cards for all UK citizens. IF YOU HAVENT DONE ANYTHING WRONG THEN THERE IS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.

[maxy101]

Problem is Dash, we know how it will all pan out. You wont be able to do anything without showing your "identity card". Of course , it will be unforgeable. (Unless you pop to BKK where they will do a copy of your airside pass in 30 mins for about a tenner) Your identity will then be "verified" God help you if someone does rip a copy of your card as it will be near impossible to prove otherwise. Here, in Spain, you can't do anything without showing your DNI identity card, and it causes great problems if you don't have one (like most Brits living here) Shops refuse to sell you stuff even with your credit card. Last time I checked my terms and conditions, all I had to do is sign the slip in front of the cashier. Not in Spain, I'm afraid.

[Daysleeper]

a check can be made in their own country.


The checks dont even cover Northern Ireland let alone the middle east.
Its a stupid system designed by idiots to put more red tape on UK airlines.

[normal_nigel]

bjcc

I was right the first time. You can't read. Go back to my post and look at this bit

What difference does it make if you have a minor un-spent conviction.

Typical bloody cop. Always right.

And of course the Pakistani authorities will be providing a list of convictions for all their nationals at LHR. Silly me.

NN

[Airbusbellboy]

This CRC is absolute madness and is a cosmetic exercise aimed at reassuring the travelling public. At the end of the day if someone has been carying out their duties airside to the highest standards for say 10 years and then the crc highlights a slight misdemeanour of someone's mispent youth surely some common sense could be applied to this type of situation as opposed to dimissing someone from their position.

Another example of a cosmetic exercise in the arena of aviation security is confiscating passengers tweezers and nail scissors at security only for passengers to be able to purchase such items airside at some airports or for them (if they so desired) to find alternative weapons on board aircraft in the shape of glass bottles (wine or duty free).

Where has our comon sense gone?:ugh:

[normal_nigel]

Where has our comon sense gone?

Post Sept 11th its been surgically removed and shoved up the collective arse of the USA.

NN

[HZ123]

Many of you are correct 'it is merely a cosmetic exercise'. However I think you will find it has been seen by many within the UK employment zone as a sucess and it will be introduced to many of the larger companies in the future and any others that see it as a positive employment benefit to advertise to your customers.

[normal_nigel]

HZ123

With absolutely no due respect what a pile of crap.

Do you think this will improve BAA's customer base?

This is just more kneejerk US inspired TRANSEC b****cks, the main one being jumpseats which I'm told most of Europe is ingoring now anyway (except us of course).

When was the last time having someone with a criminal record employed at an airport caused a terrorist incident or put passenger off flying? Who even knew?

NN

[Da Dog]

N_N wot do you expect HZ123 is always trawling his management cr@p around Pprune :yuk:

[kfw]

Well here is a scenario ....

4 years 11months and 29 days ago you drive into Band Qs car park . You get out of your car and are verbally abused by a man in his late 50s because you've parked in his space . Because he was so rude you shrug and walk off to buy some taps .

On return the man is waiting for you and says you went and scratched his car . You deny it and drive home .

10 days later you get a call from the Police asking you to come to the station . You've been accused of criminal damage the man has a witness you are placed on bail .

1 month later you return in accordance with your bail and re charged . A solicitor represents you in court but you are found guilty ( there is no option to have a jury ....too minor an offence ) .

You are fined £30 told to pay £150 costs to the man to repair his car . Your legal bill is £3000 . You do not have an automatic right to appeal and if you did it would cost another few grand in legal fees . You are advised to chalk this one down to experience frustrating though it is .

Great news you now fail your CRC and lose your six figure pilot job .

Meanwhile OBL would pass his CRC !!!!!!

The employer does not have any discretion , you cannot have an ID card .

[sixmilehighclub]

Current Basic discloure is 9 weeks waiting time.

Flying crew can get a temp pass anyway until a crc is received back.

So does this mean a person with intent to harm an airline cannot do this on a temp pass???

[Anti-ice]

quote HZ123

"As I am located alongside the people department I can assure you that the figure of 80 is not correct. BA senior management would be over the moon if we could get rid of 80 bodies per month."


Yes, well obviously as you are not frontline staff who are VITAL to the airlines operation , perhaps your @SS will be one of the first to be hauled out - especially with that kind of attitude

:yuk: :mad: :rolleyes:

[bjcc]

kFW

Why does a totally unwork related incident cost you your job? Where in the CTC vettinging does a conviction mean you cannot be employed?
Nowhere!
Right lets start at the begining shall we?
You are being asked to reveal any convictions as part of vetting, it happens whatever vetting you have, live with it. If its a minor offence its going to make sod all difference.
Why you persist in these stupid theories about job losses over a minor criminal damage is beyond me.
Oh and by the way, in your example, you got it very slightly wrong, the chances of being charged in the circumstances you discribe are nil.
Are any of you going to find out the facts before attacking everyone who who tries to calm you fears?
You have had people try to explain facts to you, try reading them before you launch into one of NN's diatribes based on what he thinks rather than the real world.

[737child]

What an interesting thread. Initially I thought these crcs were a good idea, but looking at the disqualifying offences, I have had a radical rethink. For example : admisitering chloroform, false accounting, evasion of duty, living on the earnings of prostitution and minor vandalism offences.
Surely these checks are to weed out potential terrorists ? Where is the proportionality ? On further investigation I have found out that there is no appeals procedure - surely this is a breach of human rights ? There is also an element of racism to it. Someone from outside the UK working for a UK airline could have a conviction list the size of your arm in their home country, but go unoticed here ! What is happening to this country?, what is BALPA doing ? Surely as an airline community we shouldn't be have to put up with this persecution ?

[StudentInDebt]

bjcc

Here is a link to the list of disqualifying offences.

http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/criminal/basic.pdf

They have nothing to do with whether you lied on your application form, if you have an unspent conviction for one of these you cannot hold a restricted zone pass.

If you think some of the offences on the list are bizzare you might be amused to know that they removed "Infanticide":confused: ,"Buggery with an animal" :confused: :confused: and "Causing bodily harm by wanton or furious driving" :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Jayjay Ococha]

bjcc
Unless I`m much mistaken i think you need to examine your facts with regard to CRC`s for flight crew. Everyone with access to RZ`s within UK airports has to undergo one of these checks. If you have an unspent conviction which appears on the list included with your disclosure application (which covers everything from murder and rape to contraventions of the Railways act of 1986(?)) you have your RZ pass withdrawn. If this occurs my employer informs me that i would be unable to fulfil my role and my employment terminated. So that means that minor non work related incidents like the hypothetical one described in the earlier post can most definately lead to the end of a career. Apologies to you if I`ve misunderstood your post.

[kfw]

BJCC

Rather vitriolic reply I didn't attack anyone .

Criminal damage is on the list of disqualifying offences . This is not a stupid theory , stupid scenario possibly .

Please don't start at the beginning it would seem that your info is incorrect . You do not disclose a criminal record but fill in a form and send it away in order to receive a certificate stating your convictions , if any .

This CRC is for everyone with an airside pass not just new applicants . If you have an unspent record and it is for one of the mentioned offences then you cannot have an airside pass therefore you cannot do your job therefore your contract of employment can be terminated .

In this case his legal representative thought the courts decision was perverse and so did his boss . He is sim instructing waiting for his conviction to become spent ( not long ) .

In anticipation of losing his job he pulled his kids out of private school downsized his house and had to deal with his wife having nervous breakdown .

I think we all now believe you were or still are a cop , mind you thats unfair to the police in general , I know a DCI who is a great bloke .

[noblues]

This CRC is absolute nonsense.

IF YOU DONT HOLD A UK PASSPORT YOU ARE EXEMPT ..... thats a very large percentage of UK airport airside workers .......I even get security checked most days by non nationals, its a joke ....

[Fly747]

This is nonsense. I hold a UK passport but fly for a Chinese airline into UK. No-one has CRC'd me and I show either my crew card or company pass at security and very little interest is taken in that. A uniform and any old Bangkok ID would do.

[normal_nigel]

Well HZ answer?

By the way I'm very grateful to Danny for allowing me to post again.

Now I'll promise to be a good boy and toe the line so as to fit in here.

I'm sorry for all my earlier misdeamenours and won't say anything contentious ever again promise.

NN

[martinidoc]

As with so many things, the principle is a good one, but the practicalities of the system bring the whole thing into disrepute. Personally I would like my CRC to be done in Humberside so there's no chance of finding anything!

I have a RZ pass as an FI working out of an "International" UK airport, but thankfully nobody has got round to asking me for a CRC check. Only new club members need that, and in any case what about all our trial lessons who gain airside access without any check whatsoever.

The CRC system has also been a disaster in the medical world, where it is common for several junior doctors to be prevented from starting their new jobs whilst awaiting clearance. This has meant that there have often been serious staff shortages in hospitals. Once again, I as a long in the tooth consultant have never been checked, it only applies to new employees so far in the NHS. No doubt eventually they'll catch me out for my parking tickets in 1976, and hopefully I'll get suspended on full pay.

[PPRuNe Towers]

737Child,

About these disqualfying offences?

false accounting, evasion of duty,


If true most PPRuNers need another passport and quick

:uhoh: :uhoh:

Rob

[Hawkley]

Suggest BJCC takes a reality check and get's his facts right. There are no problems with the CRC system if you have a clear background but some offences are carried on your record for 7 years and some for 10 depending on the offence and the length of any custodial sentence.

I have just had the misfortune of terminating the employment of a member of staff who "made an error of gudgement" four years ago and this showed on his CRC. There is no appeal against this and it has just got worse. It is now a criminal offence for any manager to employ some one who he knows will not get a clean CRC.

[737child]

PP Towers,

There are even more of these crazy disqualifying offences, how about, and I quote : a company director publishing false statement, destroying a will, abduction of a woman by force or for the sake of her property, so anyone found guilty of any of the above offences - watch out !!!
:(
We are all human and during our lives we make certain mistakes, but I fail to see how any of the above mentioned offences could be 'terrorist related', surely, we as a democratic society, should have the right to appeal if we fall into any of the diqualifying criteria?, but at the moment we don't so its good night vienna - and you loose everything :yuk:

This whole issue pi@*es me off:} If these checks are to be taken seriously then at least the whole of Eurpoe should have them done, not just in the UK !

[kfw]

Hawkley

I take it that is just for a job requiring an airside pass .

What I am aware of is that any minor misdemeanour in the future could cost you heavily . Being accused and found guilty will mean you will lose everything .

Can you be a monk and still fly 747s ? I've almost got the hairstyle already courtesy of Sennheiser .

[Re-Heat]

A company director publishing a false statement is one of the most serious white collar crimes there is, and I am therefore unsurprised that it is qualiflying. It refers to published financial statements, and without taking responsibility for such I would not want a similar person in charge of an aircraft.

[737child]

its hardly terrorist material !

[woodpecker]

Its a good thing this didn't happen a few years ago when a certain Concorde Captain was "done" for importing computer parts in excess of his limit. He would obviously in todays climate have lost his airside pass.

None of us liked him, but that's not the point.

Enjoy your retirement Porky.

[Hawkley]

kfw

I can't speak for the situation with land side passes as all of my guys are air side but the operator I had to part company with was absolutely gutted and feels he his now being punished all over again.

I argued his case with Airport Security and the Department of Transport but they are not interested.

If he had been done for driving whilst under the influence he would have been OK but petty theft was a complete no no.

And this comes at a time when we have a reasonably size contingent of "asylum seekers" working for a catering company - (all of whom have airside passes) but whose backgrounds can't be checked.

Something tells me we have gone wrong somewhere.

[kfw]

Hawkley

Tks for the reply couldn't agree more .