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View Full Version : Unpaid STBYS for RYANAIR Contractors


CAPTAINNIC
17th Jun 2004, 09:03
as a contract pilot for ryanair, one is paid ONLY when he works.
but now ryanair is forcing their contract pilots to do 4 standbys every month for free.
that is 50 days a year of free work!
and the pilots who do not live at a base, that means beeing away from home and even pay for hotels and meals.

i think according europeaen law it is illegal to have people on standby and not pay them.

the roster pattern changes like this from 5 on, 5 off, to 5 on, 3 off..

is it like this still worth to apply to work for them?

Great Circle
17th Jun 2004, 09:25
Get some hours and then get the :mad: out!!! There is much better places to work than Ryanair!!:yuk:

Good luck,

GC

trainer too 2
17th Jun 2004, 11:02
We were all contemplating leaving and now are all looking to jump!

Another shitty thing is that they are "giving" contractors a base and even if that is not your choice or home they deduct your Hotac allowance... :mad:

Was a good place to work, currently agood place to train and a very good place to leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bacardi walla
17th Jun 2004, 12:25
MOL strikes again.

Sounds like hell could be a better place to work. Another cheap labour scam about to unfold. Just wait for the influx of former Eastern European cabin crew to arrive. No disrespect to anyone, but I'd say most of their cabin crew don't speak much English. Safety implication

:sad:

CAT MAN
17th Jun 2004, 12:28
I don't get it!

Why would anyone work for an organization that lives just to suck the enthusiasm, committment, zeal and general good nature from those who so readily give and keep on giving.

Is it to allow a despotic, arrogant, bullying autocrat the opportunity to basically be himself on a day to day basis. In the end who is the winner here? ( Rhetorical Question)

The consumer through 'lower fairs' and 'lower fairs' and 'lower fairs' and' lower fairs' and 'lower fairs'.

The mantra almost sounds like they are talking about the price of tickets.

Don't wear the rose tinted glasses when you go for a job there.

Dewdrop
17th Jun 2004, 12:37
Perhaps someone could enlighten me. Standing by = being available to be called into work at short notice ?

Of you are called in are you paid ?

Piltdown Man
17th Jun 2004, 12:46
A standby is an insurance policy for the airline. I don't know of any insurance company giving away free insurance. To the beneficiary it has value, therefore the Gypo should pay up. I'd go for union recognition and ask your negotiators to cut a better deal with MOL.

Rumble
17th Jun 2004, 14:28
To answer your question :- "are you paid if you are called in?"

Yes you are, however that is not the point. On a contract for Ryanair you are paid per block hour you work and that is it, nothing else, nada, zilch.

If you are sick, on holiday or not used on your standby then no money.

More to the point, the place you have to be to do your standby is very unlikely to be anywhere near where you live (probably another country) therefore you are incurring hotac costs etc, for no return.

It's very harsh but then again nothing is hidden when you sign up and the pay is not low.

Most people seem to have the idea that you do the six months/1 year for the rating & the hours & then bu**** off; or if you are offered it, join mainline Ryanair where it is much more stable?

Hope this clarifies

The Southend King
17th Jun 2004, 17:35
Can you fill in the balance of the information....like what you're hourly rate is, and how many you do per month/roster.....just so that we can put things in perspective.

TSK

omoko joe
17th Jun 2004, 18:32
the answer would appear simple...don't work for them. O'leary positively enjoys being a tw*t. He makes no bones about it.

easyprison
17th Jun 2004, 18:40
Are you a member of a union?

Time Ryanair Pilots/Employees stood up to O'leary and his merry men.

flash8
17th Jun 2004, 20:00
There is a simple answer ain't there chaps.. instead of whining vote with your feet

I for one will be more than happy to take your place, as would many many others

Impressive_Wingspan
17th Jun 2004, 20:07
Excellent, i'll swop you, your job in Canada for mine in Europe!

Fat, Dumb & Happy
17th Jun 2004, 20:27
flash8 I'm sure CAPTAINNIC appreciates your support! It's not enough that we have to pay for interviews / sim rides / type ratings etc, now you think it's ok that we work for nothing too? Instructors have been shafted like this for years because people are willing to work for nothing. Ryanair seem to want to do the same to pilots, and why not? They are out to make money not give us nice jobs, and if there are enough people like Flash8 who put up with this s:mad: t then they will get away with it.

Wing Commander Fowler
17th Jun 2004, 20:29
Nice guy Flash8 - bet you sleep well at night! :ouch:

wiggy
17th Jun 2004, 20:49
Rumble
Just a ( probably rhetorical) question: you imply no holiday, no money - isn't that illegal under EU law? ...

bacardi walla
17th Jun 2004, 20:53
MOL's little scams will no doubt backfire in due course when everyone decides they've had enough. Paying good salaries does not substitute a quality life.

Fat, Dumb & Happy
17th Jun 2004, 21:22
bacardi walla - I'd like to think you're right, but I'm not sure. Seen what an instructor earns these days?

Sick
17th Jun 2004, 21:27
...so; experienced and conscientious Ryanair pilot finally has had enough of being abused, and leaves....

MOL goes bottom fishing and finds flash8, who gleefully snaps up the empty seat...

would you feel safe on flash8's flight?

Fluffy flyer
18th Jun 2004, 11:02
Well i see that this thread has turned into yet again a discussion about pilots that will work for nothing and pilots that would like to make a living and a career out of being a pilot.

For the guys out there that will work for nothing i can only imagine that you do not have a wife or children that need to be looked after and provided for.

Back to the problem of Ryanair............. were to start

I personally think that if we don't stand up to MOL as a pilot body and get some representation then we only have ourselves to blame.

How much further are we willing to let this one man push down this industry.

loaded1
18th Jun 2004, 11:04
Sick! You are spot on!!

No, I wouldn't feel safe, and thanks to three thoroughly miserable experiences as a passenger I wont be flying with "Mr. Grumpy's" mob again anyway.

Its one thing for O' Big Gob to abuse his staff, (albeit that I believe this to be not only unacceptable but potentially in contravention of aspects of employment law - it'll catch up with him in the end), who he pays, (some of the time at any rate), its another to do so to the people who are paying for the privilege of receiving the abuse that marks O' Loudmouth's stock-in-trade!

Advice:

1. Dont fly his airline as a passenger.
2. Dont buy his company's shares.
3. Dont work for him.

Lastly, I have every sympathy for his long suffering staff. those who say "just leave" simply dont understand the airline business. Never the less, i would be looking to get out if it were me.

Good luck to all.

Rumble
18th Jun 2004, 12:51
Wiggy, you asked,


"Just a ( probably rhetorical) question: you imply no holiday, no money - isn't that illegal under EU law? ..."

I'm guessing it probably would be if you worked for Ryanair but as a contract pilot you don't work for Ryanair you are self employed effectively and paid by a contract agency (Storm or Brookfield).

This keeps MOL away from a great deal of paperwork & rules.

It also means you can claim a lot of expenses back in tax relief (even your initial type rating if you're clever about it).

To answer the earlier question about amounts

You work 5 on 3 off at home/nominated base (this base could be abroad, UK ones are Stansted & Prestwick & of course are popular & therefore not guaranteed) Alternate months you work 5 on 5 off at an away base (could be any ryanair base & changes month to month)

Pay is:

Captains Ä109 per block hour for home base month
Ä140 per bock hour for away base month

thyese are approx as I have forgotten the exact since I learned them a little while ago.

FO's

70% ish of above

Plan for min 800 block hours per year


This money is absolutely everything you get; you pay for everything else yourself - car pass, water the lot.

AT the mo' you can position anywhere anytime free on Ryanair network in uniform.

Anyone joining knows all of this & makes their own decision.

I'm pretty sure it's not for me but you can say one thing for them, they don't spring any surprises on you you know the deal in detail before you start.

Hope this helps

flyingdream
18th Jun 2004, 19:50
Its not the best place to be, but as someone said earlier on, the airline buissness is not a nice industry. As a permanent guy, I have an okey ride, but 98% of all permanent guys I know are looking for something diffrent...

On the other hand, I havent spoken to any contract pilot who came over to Ryanair just because he could, no he/she came because they were unemployed. It is a place to work, when you need to pay your bills, but we do have to stand up for ourselves.

A lot of people are currently leaving for other airlines and it will be fun to see what future brings to us.

Finally, regarding eastern european cabin crew... I am surprised, in a good way. They are polite, they speak good english and the seem to be willing to do a good job.

well thats just my two cents

FD

Miles Magister
18th Jun 2004, 21:22
This topic is sad reading for all professional pilots. It is unfortunate that it is an employers market at the moment.

I believe that any time on standby is duty time according to CAP 371 and probably the Company Ops Manual and approved FTL scheme. If you do not pay the crews they never appear as being on duty and then duty is not recorded in the FTL scheme.

IMHO it is your licence, take care because if there is ever an incident which may be nothing to do with you, you will take the rap and the company will exit stage left just as fast as they taxy the jets.

Get the hours and get out!

B737NG
19th Jun 2004, 00:38
As soon as you leave there will be another desperado who lookes for on the other side and think the grass is greener in Ireland and fill the gap for you. FR has a high revenue .... on pax money and crews!. It is included in the consideration. If 200 leave tomorrow there are 300 applicants yesterday......... desperate to geta seat in aviation and lower the price for contract pilots on the market. The passion aviation leads to the dump as long as MOL can fill the seats he will do what he did in the past.

NG

Kaptin M
19th Jun 2004, 05:01
A page 1 poster stated that Ryan Air pilots get paid ONLY when they got to work. If this is correct, how can the company schedule you for Standby (or aircraft washing/hangar sweeping/company manual amendments), UNLESS they pay you to do those duties????

Surely you might be scheduled to standby for flying, on certain dates, but if you have not been advised that you are in fact doing a flight at the start of that day, then you are free of ALL duty - unless the company PAYS you a retainer, to keep you available, in case THEY need you!

I'm certain that Ryan Air would be FLOODED with flash8's who'd do Standby EVERY DAY, for no pay, if they wanted them - obviously no-one ELSE wants flash, if he's making that kind of offer here!! :}

Another problem with this sort of system (where you get paid ONLY when you fly) is, HOW MUCH ARE THE SCHEDULERS GETTING IN GRAFT, FROM PILOTS WANTING TO WORK??

All sounds pretty Irish to me!!

TheFatMan
19th Jun 2004, 09:05
For all of you at Ryanair wanting to get out, there are agencies looking for contract pilots on the B737, both efis and NG, to be based in Marocco.

Have a look at it! Perhaps even MOL will wake up when loosing a lot of pilots.

TFM

bacardi walla
19th Jun 2004, 09:42
I thought the employer had to provide water for staff whilst in the work place? The work place for aircrew is the aircraft. We all know that water from the galley is not drinkable unless boiled. So, how does MOL get away with not providing water for his crew? I guess his answer will be "drink tea or coffee".

Seriously though, how is this being allowed to happen?

A grounded aircraft through dehydrated crew :confused: One wonders :\

flash8
19th Jun 2004, 16:21
>>I'm certain that Ryan Air would be FLOODED with flash8's who'd do Standby EVERY DAY, for no pay, if they wanted them - obviously no-one ELSE wants flash, if he's making that kind of offer here!!


I didn't say I'd work for no pay. I'm saying simply that if people are unhappy with their situation to quit whining and walk away.

I stand by that remark.

Yes i'd take the job, and to be honest so would probably the vast number of individuals in my situation (or even further down the food chain - they do exist - in droves!!) - those who say they wouldn't - well - we all know they would.

I defy anybody in my (or similar) situation to say they would refuse a 737 job even with MOL.

It's a dog eat dog world.

As for "obviously no-one ELSE wants flash" I'd disagree vehemently with that statement :}

Wing Commander Fowler
19th Jun 2004, 16:36
Well you would, wouldn't you - but you'd be a team of one (thankfully!)

:}

TonyR
20th Jun 2004, 08:06
Sounds like you'd be better off frying chips for McDonalds than working for Ryanair.

flash8', go and get your head looked at

cat 3a
20th Jun 2004, 11:12
bacardi walla

"So, how does MOL get away with not providing water for his crew? I guess his answer will be "drink tea or coffee"."


well u are wrong because tea or coffee you have to pay for it
which means MOL is making more money out of his crews-not very nice

A water cooler is provided in each base, not very handy when you are flying for 12hrs

Dyhadration is one issue but also safety is another if you think that all crews are expected to use the same water cooler(same source)

the end result is just pathetic

all that from a company that makes milions of profits every year

NOFUNAIR
20th Jun 2004, 11:35
Yeah guys, Itís easy for you all to judge such guys like flush8, you probably completed your initial training in better times, with less requirements to apply for work. Iím also in his shoes, got my CPL with ME IR and MCC in 2002 and still canít find work. Surely I would accept RYANAIRs terms, and I even think Iím ready to fly for food and shelter, and not because Iím stupid, but despaired, Iíd love to see my career get started no matter how. :ugh:

BEagle
20th Jun 2004, 13:35
Oh come on. There are more important issues at stake than:

"So, how does MOL get away with not providing water for his crew?"

Get bottle of whatever with screw top. Drink same, then fill it up from the tap. Hardly effing rocket science! And whilst I'm on the subject, why is it that modern yoof seems to need so much damn water all the time? Clutching little plastic bottles wherever they go - never happened 20 or even 10 years ago.

Of far more concern are the issues of fatigue, Ts and Cs of contract and employer/employee liability. Mo'L does not come across as a caring employer and the business world is rapidly tiring of his Irish horse-trader's manner. Work for him if you will, but you won't get a huge amount of sympathy elsewhere if you've prostituted yourself in the process.

Other jobs are there - I've just secured a first F/O job for one of my young ex-students with a proper airline!

waspie
20th Jun 2004, 14:29
Flash8 I agree that its a dog eat dog world, but to be honest its because there are people like you that the airline pilots lifestyle has gone down the drain. I always hear about Ryanair pilots complaining, and never see any action. Why do you guys never do anything? Why not stand up for yourselves, hell go on stike if you want. Just dont continue as you are because its getting worse and worse.

Airbusbellboy
20th Jun 2004, 15:12
All good things come to an end. MOL has been flying by the seat of his pants for long enough! There is no end to the depths to which he will sink to make a sly euro. For example - asking passengers to pay for the use of a sick bag if they are unfortunate enough to be sick - how rude! Corners have been cut in every way possible. Aircraft have been grounded in the past as stress marks were detected in the skin. Soon there will be an influx of eastern european cabin crew whose english language ability may be questionable which has safety implications in itself! God FORBID it - but MOL should remember that pride often comes before a fall!!

TonyR
20th Jun 2004, 15:35
Surely I would accept RYANAIRs terms, and I even think Iím ready to fly for food and shelter

You must be mad, get a job where you will have some self respect, MOL is just a bully boy who will keep on going until you have to pay him to fly.

skibeagle
20th Jun 2004, 17:53
hey flash8, one day you'll be 59 and still making CAD53k per annum at HMY. When you're retired in your double wide trailer on your pittance of a pension, you'll be able to say to yourself, "yeah, I had a fulfilling career, flying for free and assisting in the destruction of a profession".

bacardi walla
20th Jun 2004, 18:48
cat 3a MOL is screwing his crews left right and centre. High time they took action for themselves. Prove that they have a spine. If 50% of the crew striked, what would he do? Sack them ??

Those water coolers are a waste of time as you say, especially if a duty is 12hrs in duration.

I wonder what MOL's next scam will be? Reducing flight pay maybe ?

NOFUNAIR
20th Jun 2004, 20:20
We are on the different sides of the line, you are in and Iím out, thatís why you do not understand us. It was in 94 when in just destroyed Soviet Union I was accepted in airway company as a F/O on Jak-40 , but when things got worsen older pilots started campaign of ridding newly recruited guys like me with success. So Iím sick and tiered of those that think we got it before you so we have more rights for survival. :(

lod
20th Jun 2004, 23:24
Strike will never happen . Not enough pilots together to even try and become one. Anybody i spoke to has said that they will never get STN and DUB together to talk. Always easy to talk about doing something but they never get to do anything. Nobody wants to spend there time off trying to get something done and no chance the company will give them time off for it. There is a thing called ERC meetings which are a waste of time. MOL is a bully and nobody is willing to stand up to him and im sad to say that is a fact. This will go on and on and on and on and on but we may as well get to use it. Not enough guts to stop him getting his own way every time.

trainer too 2
21st Jun 2004, 18:55
Understand that Parc is pulling a lot of guys out of here to go to a new Royal Air Maroc loco.. :ok:

beamer
21st Jun 2004, 21:03
Flash 8

Purely for infomation, what is your level of experience as a professional pilot that you are willing to offer Ryanair ?

eng123
22nd Jun 2004, 06:34
Airbusbellend,what on earth are you talking about? Getting passengers to pay for their sick bags? Absolute tosh. If you are really that interested,the sickbags are paid for by an advertiser who positively encourages pax to take them home and then post their holiday snaps away to be developed! Pay for sick bags indeed!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Aircraft have not been grounded because of 'stress marks' ,whatever they may be [Anyone have any idea's?] They have been retired,however,because of score marks that were caused by a 3rd party maintenance company during re-paint. There has supposedly been a £10M pound compensation payment made.

You gave me a laugh though.:D :D

Wing Commander Fowler
22nd Jun 2004, 12:01
My wife had a few "Stretch marks" after her 27th baby...... Mind you she got her own back and gave me "stress marks" after the divorce!

Hope that helps you out ENGY Baby :ugh:

runawayedge
22nd Jun 2004, 12:56
In the early 90s I happened to get to a very short list as a cadet with a 'conventional airline'. In the final interview post maybe 11 having travelled a considerable distance each time a smug high time appropriately accented pilot told me I had performed exceptionally well through all stages and I was one of 150 for 100 jobs out of 12,000. However as I had amassed fifty hours with a reputable training school I would undoubtably have bad habits which would not go away. I have over 1,000 hours of leisure flying behind me, and abandonded thoughts of commercial flying. My points, (a) MOL and having a go at the Irish is not really acceptable. (b) The smug interviewer is probably the type you are trying to protect, 'ruining the life of an airline pilot'. (c) stop having a go at flash8, I know hundreds of guys who have payed small fortunes, at the best of schools, now with loans, who will do anything to get on that first rung, all I ever hear these days is frozen ATPLs. Like many of you they had a dream, you have realised it, they're trying to. MOL is using the aviation market for pilots like in most other business supply and demand. Yes, you hate him for it, but, the only constant in life is change, and if you can't unite to fight, then put up or shut up. Finally, what about the whistle blower route, or as P1 if you're not happy with your craft, ground it!

loaded1
23rd Jun 2004, 00:12
runwayedge:

"fly for food, sleep in paper bag at edge of road, market forces, cabbies have more skills, you lot dont know how lucky you are, the senior cabin crew member is a more important member of the team, live off scraps, pay for water, jumped -up b#st#rds the lot of you, planes fly themselves these days, easy as falling off a log, dont know the meaning of work etc etc etc"!

You're not management are you? What price your Granny? Bet you'd sell her too if the price was right.

Try a new recording mate.

Dewdrop
23rd Jun 2004, 07:02
loaded1 - being a qualified experience pilot does not allow you to dictate the market, you might like to by claiming falling standards and safety, but the truth of the matter is that its a buyers market (same old arguement but true!). You have no right to deny anyone the right to work under whatever conditions they judge satisfactory. I agree conditions are being erroded and will continue to be ! market forces. If you want to fly you can fly, and earn good money with good breaks, if you would rather be a prima donna you won't !

I understand how many long serving guys must feel, but that was then, this is now.

Push to talk
23rd Jun 2004, 08:57
How about contractors having to travel to and from the 'away bases' twice a month in their own time, instead of on duty? And isn't this max. 4 day standby thing in your contract as a contract pilot?

Ptt

STOKKEN
23rd Jun 2004, 15:12
Hey Wiggy and Rumble to get back to your original question. even if you are a contractor with Storm or Brookfield with Ryanair, you are entitled to Annual leave , minimum 3 weeks per annum.This is EU Legislation and if your Agent is not giving you that then they are breaking the law..... but hey they are breaking the law anyway, UK companies, using offshore companies to place guys in the UK without paying tax and NI, well these two will get their fingers burned pretty quickly., so as Jersey, Isle of Man etc companies fall outside of EU employment legislation I`m afraid they have you stuffed.... dirty stuff eh??:* :zzz: