Cabair, change of direction

[Yankee]

Cabair have sold the Bournemouth Flying School and rumour has it that Southend and Rochester are up for sale. Is this consolidation or are there problems ahead for this flagship of British Flying Schools.

[A and C]

May be with this forum to ask questions people new to flying are getting wise to the gold and silver programs that have yards of small print and several ways to fall out of discount and pay the very full price.

After all the posh offices, potted plants and sea of gold braid have to be payed for some how.

also could some one please tell me how you can teach climbing turns and decending on the way to elstree for maintenance and give the student value for money.

[pulse1]

Does anybody know who has bought Bournemouth Flying School?

[zzzz]

It is a wounder Cabair grew so big in the first place with their prices. They had some good instructors, but paying £100+ per hour for PPL training didn't guarantee you'd get a good one.

People have just cottoned on to the idea that you can go down the road and get the same product, less gold braids at less cost.

[eyeinthesky]

Cabair are not the only ones. Take a look at some of the independent schools around London. For example one of the two major clubs at Booker (not the one which paints its aircraft with funny tails) charges over £130 an hour for a clapped out C152 with mould on the roof. Don't even ask how much of that goes to the instructor. Just remember that they are VERY LUCKY to be allowed to fly the aircraft to build hours on the way to their airline job...

Someone said to me the other day that the only reason Cabair have done so well in the past is that they have a supply of virtually free instructors through the airline sponsorship scheme.

Never flown with Cabair.. Any feedback on quality of service, availability of a/c etc?

[Dr Jekyll]

From what I hear of Cabair at Elstree:

Good instructors, aircraft for PPL training are almost new PA28s and availability problems are rare. A Katana is supposed to be arriving shortly.

But, Elstree is very crowded, especially now one of the taxiways is waterlogged so there is lots of backtracking going on. Expect plenty of go-rounds due to runway occupation or conflicting traffic. (Not Cabair's fault of course.)

And all for £150 per hour! Plus landings!

[TheSilverFox]

Since when have Scabair been considered a "Flagship Flight Training Organisation?"

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[moggie]

My experience of cabair:

Good GH training, Poor IF training. Can you justify turning out frozen ATPLs who've never flown a SID or Procedural approach?

BA left, after all.

[Sleeve Wing]

Interested to hear that, Moggie.
You don't mention which of Cabair's schools ?

It certainly wasn't Blackbushe as most,if not all,the Instructors there are Instrument Rated. Hence they know their way around.
The majority of IMC Rating candidates from there are very sound.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[pulse1]

Not necessarily relevant to instructors but, from what I hear, many of the GA community at EGHH are almost flying flags and dancing in the streets now that Cabair have gone. Hopefully, under new ownership, they can now rebuild their excellent flying club that Cabair almost destroyed.

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"If you keep doing what you've always done, you will keep getting what you've always got"

[zzzz]

It was funny to see how many instructors left EGHH when Cabair moved in. That certainly said something about Cabair from those in the know. Hopefully now they have gone so will the profit at all cost attitude.

I am wonder way anyone flys from Elstree when the lovely and less crowded Denham is near by, with pro AFIS and no odd ball A/G.

[moggie]

Sleeve Wing - Cranfield. The poor old trainees could fly but not navigate around a procedure.

Glad to hear that the standard was better elsewhere.

[johntrav69]

How do you pass an IR if you cant fly a SID of Procedural approach?

[kalik]

Is it true that Cabair have put their PPL F.I's on a 4 day week & are now getting them to work 5 days for 4 days pay ?

If true , this must indicate that times are hard for E.C.H et al - are there really that many F.I's on the market to upset the poorly paid guys working for them already .

I seem to recall that a certain Chief Executive treated his instructors with the same contempt as the club coffee machines ... as neccessary evils'!

[rolling circle]

Must be catching, kalik. The MD of a somewhat larger school, further to the west, had rather less respect than that for his instructors.

[moggie]

Johntrav69 -

It amazed me too. Apparently radar vectors are good enough - which of course sets you up perfectly for all those procedural-only places you go to when you get into the right hand seat. We had to bring the poor sods up to scratch before they could start their BA type conversions and it was hard work for them and us.

[johntrav69]

The new Jar system can't help with these ab-initio guys as they only have 20 hours in the twin now. They used to have big problems passing the IR with 35 hours so it can be no suprise that they are trained to pass a test only. I am amazed how many people tell me that they consider an NDB approach to be a black art and have never really understood it.

[Stan Evil]

There's a certain amount of duff gen being spread here. To pass an IRT in the UK you must fly at least one procedural approach, including a hold, using only single needle tracking. As Cranfield aren't blessed with radar, all IFR approaches there are procedural. Although Cranfield have a VOR approach as well as the NDB, it's not used much as it gets in the way of the procedural SIDs you've got to fly to get into the airways structure. UK IREs aren't going to pass anyone who can't fly procedurally and Cabair students do pass their IRTs.

[moggie]

Stan evil - I have to disagree. we got it direct from the students themselves. Of a gropu of 8 they had 1 SID and two procedural approaches between them - honest!!!! I'm damned if I know how the FTO and Examiners managed that!

Of course under JAR total hours flown on twins MAY be fewer, but that does not mean that the FTOs only have to do the minimum (some do more) and of course you don't have to have two engines to fly procedural approaches. BAE and Oxford do IF on singles (that is a much better use of time than yet another VFR navex). Cabair were guilty of only doing procedral IF on their twins (the VERY slow Cougar) and that is why BA left - the students new too little at procedural IF and struggled with the step up to jets more than those trained by BAE, OATS and West Michigan on senecas.

[Qhunter]

watch out, watch out, Red Justin's about.

[johntrav69]

moggie, sounds like they fed you a line! Maybe they were badly trained, but it is impossible that they only had 2 procedural approaches between eight of them, and if you dont believe that, call Cabair and the examiners, and if you don't believe them, the ATC strips will show any IFR approaches made. SIDS can be a problem due to London clearances and the choice must be made go or cancel, but the Cranfield SID isn't exactly 'phone a friend' if you look at it!

[moggie]

johntrav69.

do you work at Cranfield, CAA, BA or Latcc? If not, I have to ask you why 8 BA students would all feel it neccessary to tell the same lie to an instructor who was about to take them through a 4 week course with a pass/fail test at the end?

They all told the same story (in fact it was repeated by later courses), and the standard of training they demonstrated at the start of the course backed this up.

I ask again, if Cabair were any good would BA have pulled out?

[inyoni]

Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to decieve, just ask uncle Steve, he who reputably put the 'S' in Cabair.

[The Claw]

With All the "Empire" building going on at Cabair, one wonders where they find the time to teach! The fact that Heathcote's
"blue-eyed" boy, gave him the finger, should
say loads!? In my opinion Cabair has great instructors, who are being prevented from
offering the best service arround due to the
hidden agenda's at Elstree. (Never mind the
petty issue's guys, just get those name tags straight and keep it blue...........)

[Dr Jekyll]

Hidden agendas at Elstree?

Tell me more!

[Honest Frank]

Yes I'd like to know more about these "hidden agendas at EGTR."
And the blue eyed boy- do you mean DH(the mad axeman who went on to write a book about Instrument flying and star in all their videos?)

[185 Lbs of Ballast!!]

Ahhh! Mr Doberman, I'd recognise that tone anywhere, As for the tripe being spread by that non pedigree pussy!! I would ask any instructor here that has taken on a disgruntled stude, to say that he/she has not saught to blame their previous instruction for their shortcomings. Moggy.....Wake up old chap Try to see a little further than those lovely silver stripes (oops Platinum of course!!)

As for Astbury/Hartley/Litten etc does anyone knowwhat became of them?

[zzzz]

Ah DH, Cabair's Robert Redford (stroke Norman Bates). Let us not forget his classic role in BBC2s 'The Airshow.'

[Honest Frank]

185 Ibs>>>>>>>>

Litten- he's still eating, smoking and smelling.

Hartley- there's a very vicious rumour going around that he will soon be up for command?

As for Astbury dont know.

[noblues]

I instructed for the mighty Cabair for 3 years, that was over 6 years ago.
I'm not surprised to hear nothing has changed .....

A great bunch of hard working loyal instructors run by two directors (Theafcoat and Greed) who have NO RESPECT AT ALL FOR THEIR EMPLOYEES ....

I meet many ex Cabair instructors in the airlines and not one has a good word to say about the management there.

Re. BA/CCAT they used to share a/c between Elstree and Cranfield (Elstree for busy weekends PPL training and Cranfield for weekday commercial training), this policy never worked in practice. It relied on Friday and Sunday evenings being good WX for ferry flights and people to fly them, usualy instructors unpaid or PPL's desperate for hours .....

DH (God bless him ! Where is he nowdays ?)did an excellent job at winning the BA contract, depite BA paying millions to Cabair they failed to invest at CCAT an still ran it on a shoe string ....

Typical Cabair doesnt realise people talk about them when they leave (instructors and students ...... word gets around ).

At the end of the day the instructors and quality of courses good, BUT the management stink !

[Honest Frank]

DH- rumour has it that he now is involved in training at Bae Woodford??????????????

[The Claw]

With all the superficial changes, much inhouse shuffling of paper and pay-cuts, its
obvious that something is up! I do not mean
DH, more resent, I'm talking about a CFI.
Tartley is flying Dash-8's.(I wonder if he has rolled one yet!) Litten is still at Cranfield, although rumour says.........
(Watch this space!)

[Lefthanddown]

Only ever met Heathgoat once and I hope I never have to do it again. He comes across as a complete T****r.
In 6 yrs of flying I have also never found anyone to defend Cabair as a training organisation....I am sure the instructors are brilliant but the punters get royally seen off.

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Use it don't abuse it.
What day is it anyway?