How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?

[Danny]

With all the changes to the working lifestyle since 9/11, does the idea of an airline pilots job still hold the same appeal as it used to?

The poll is not meant to be scientific and is open to anyone with an opinion, whether they are current airline pilots, retired airline pilots, wannabe airline pilots or just someone who dreams about being an airline pilot.

Those who don't have experience will obviously be basing their choices on what they have read here in PPRuNe. Others will be basing their choices on their own experience and whether they are flying short, medium or long haul, pax or freight.

There will no doubt be some who are flying short haul and fancy the idea of long haul and vice versa. Also, there will be those working for a major airline with all the associated benefits and others working for smaller outfits with fewer or no benefits.

Feel free to express your thoughts about the 'job', whether you are already in it, wannabe in it or just like the idea of it. Please state which of the above categories you fall into.

Whilst there are many other professional pilot categories, this poll is aimed at the airline pilot and the job of crewing multi engined jet aircraft. Apologies to those who may not fly those types but it is purely an exercise in trying to assess the 'desirability' of the job at that level.

Abuse and derogatory comments will not be tolerated. So, those of you of a condescending or aggressive attitude had better remember that your comments may be a waste of time if they are deleted.:hmm:

[saddest aviator]

Dear Danny,
Your post has taken a long time coming! 20 yrs ago a bog standard charter Captain working for one of the bigger operators could command a salary of 55k plus allowances plus health ins travel conc. etc. all in return for a reasonably stable roster 500 to 650 hrs a yr mixture of long and short haul esp if you worked for Brit Mon AE etc. Generally quality of life was good. Now however the money is much the same in numbers terms it hasn't even kept up with RPI we all all work like dogs and the benifits package is virtually non existent. I ask all your contributors to remove their rose tinted spectacles and see what has really happened to their profession. The only people that think flying is "GLAMOUROUS" are the pilots themselves.Stamp on those specs boys and girls we have been shafted big style!

[unowho]

For wannabes the answer must be a great big VERY.

For the ones who have been flying a long time and have seen a drop in the "life style" maybe not. But how has their life style changed since they started flying. Are they still "young" and single or have they more family ties and now have a very much changed out look on life.

My military flying was very desirable, but the thrill can dull. Maybe the same can be said for airline flying.

[dada]

we just refer to them as drivers now. more and more of their authority (that they used to possess) has been removed.
ops decide what they should do (operationally), engineers via hf/mobiles advise what to do to get it fixed, pilot management
can verify / dispute their decisions, flight support determine route/levels/fuel to be loaded.

the good old days are long gone.

[jack schidt]

Flying great big aircraft awesome fun, through the night, to major time zone changes, stuck in a tube for 15hrs, straight to bed because your'e knackered, 27hrs later back in the tube 15hrs, home for 2 days totally knackered, off in the other direction for 15hrs, same heavily fat fortified aircraft food to get some taste out of it, sim very 6 months on 3 aircraft types, only a job for the next 6 months again, doctors complaining I'm not looking like superman any more, the pay and conditions constantly being pushed down and erroded.......it goes on.

Tell your wife to sit on the loo in the bathroom from dinnertime to lunchtime the next day, as it gets dark read a paper with a torch light only, put the hair dryer on outside the bathroom door for the noise effect, only get up out of your seat for 5 mins every 3 hrs or so and talk to hardly anyone else for the 15 hrs, except of course to a foreign controller who you cannot understand or Bombay on HF, live out of the suitcase when she gets to the bedroom and do it all over again the following night. She will admit you are lucky to have such a glamorous job no doubt.

Seacrest out!!

I'd do it for free, thats the way it's going anyway!!

[High Speed Descent]

Hey Jack you summed up my life to the tee. We must work for the same outfit..... if not..... I suppose the grass isn't greener on your side either!:(

I'll just go n have another beer...hic..
HSD

[Tandemrotor]

This job must be very desirable.

People seem keen (even proud!) to do it for less, and less. In fact people are prepared to pay through the nose, to be trained to do it.

As a group we are our own worst enemies. Eager to increase our own company's market share, even though it may be at the expense of those whose salaries, and lifestyle, are viewed (subjectively) as unsustainable!

Combine this with people's rabid eagerness to work longer than ever, to earn a pension, rather than fighting for improved pension provision!!

It's not rocket science to see where this leads. However cheap you sell yourself, there is always someone else willing to sell themselves a little cheaper! Console yourselves that your hard work always serves to handsomely reward the Board!

As an additional issue, the 'enjoyability' of the job has fallen off a cliff since 2001. Now every man, and his dog, can interfere in all aspects of your life, in the interests of 'security!' (Even though nothing has made the job any safer!)

Flying an aeroplane CAN be fun. But expect to pay a heavy price in all other aspects of your life for the 'priviledge' of doing it.

Chances are, you'd be better rewarded as a plumber!

[Dogma]

That poll is misleading and badly thought out.

It is defiantly a great way to earn a living. Varied work/trips (long and short), good people, reasonable money (need a rise though).

Would not like to work for Low cost though. They don't need a pension, their management will have killed them off through poor rostering and below par T+C's first!

[whatunion]

whatunion says, hours and hours of boredom punctuated by seconds of sheer terror.
that was always the saying but now we can add, even more boredom and more terror if you work for a budget airline!

[411A]

Well I dunno.

Altho I have never worked for so called low cost carriers, have several friends who do...specifically Southwest.
They certainly seem satisfied...good pay, nice rosters, a company who treats 'em quite well...sounds like a pilots' dream.
Perhaps it is.
'Course they have so called 'long haul' as well...nearly 5 hours coast to coast.
Not the 12+ that is more the norm in other carriers, time zones a plenty, shorter nightstops, downgraded hotels (in some cases)...but hey, still not a bad job at all.
After 38+ years, would I do it again?
You bet...a most satisfying way to make a living.

[dusk2dawn]

Dogma roll your own poll !

[Llamapoo]

I wanted to be a pilot from the age of 4 (30 years ago), but got glasses and then height. My notion though, was that you controlled this big thing; you hand flew it and could be as free as a bird soaring in the sky.

Now I know a bit more about it, I worry about the increased monitoring role. Not only from a safety point of view, but the job satisfaction perspective.

I would still love to have had the chance, but know that my view is still coloured by my youthful ideas of freedom, excitement, aerobatics and those little gold wings.

At least that's the view from my office...:ok:

[NWSRG]

Very desirable.

Terms & Conditions are not just getting poorer in the aviation industry...it is the way of the world.

Pilots still seem to be well paid, in comparison to other professionals (excluding our medical and legal friends!).

As a professional engineer, I earn less than any captain, and probably less than a lot of FOs. And my salary is by no means bad!

And when I get into work in the morning, the work that was causing me stress yesterday is still there. Monthly reports, budget figures, targets, performance figures, it never stops.

Give me a big shiny airplane, where I get to go home at night knowing that the day is truly gone, and that tomorrow might bring pressures, but at least today's won't come back!

...and every day, you get to enjoy bright summer sun (even in the middle of winter), see the world from above, and do something that you love.

Ok, I know that the grass is always greener, but as a PPLer who would love to be in your position, I think the life of a pilot is still desirable!

[Jet II]

SA

Generally quality of life was good. Now however the money is much the same in numbers terms it hasn't even kept up with RPI we all all work like dogs and the benifits package is virtually non existent.

Welcome to the real world - that description could fit any number of different professions I could think of. Most people now work harder, longer with more stress for the same as they earn't several years ago - its called competition.

If the conditions were so bad nobody would do it - there is no shortage of highly qualified individuals entering the job market every year and aviation still has no problem attracting new entrants even with the competition from other careers.

[Boss Raptor]

Have to say although 9/11 was a big nail in the coffin of the job the rot started to set in early 90's during/post the Gulf War...the 'new' contracts with much lower money, loss of acceptable quality of life and general job instability set in...it is very true that this general malaise has also affected many occupations particularly in the UK however there is little doubt I would have been financially/socially better off being a solicitor or an accountant for example (and without the £45K bill)

At £50K-£60K the current Captains' salaries equates (acceptably IMO) with an average senior accountant, solicitor, company MD etc. but obviously conditions and hours of working are very different...although that does not justify double that figure or more...

My own preference if I were still a pilot would be reduced workload for the same money and not increased money to continue existing workload...this would also be my management preference to implement as it is arguably the easiest to sustain and squeeze out of the budget...a few more thousand per pilot head spent on additional crews makes a big difference operationally at minimal cost burden

Overall I would say the job with all its' antisocial aspects is not worth the remuneration in the UK, however the current airline business models dont support a higher figure, Catch 22...and not a good investment for a self-sponsor

I did 2 years as an instructor and 5 years flying and walked away looking for a new career direction, job satisfaction and a return of my quality of life...and rather ironically ended up back in airline management :uhoh:

[fernytickles]

Interesting poll. The mixture of opinions will be infinite.

I worked in the airlines for 7 years and generally enjoyed it, but wasn't sure I wanted to do this for the rest of my life. I knew I did not want to get caught up in the roller coaster, bored with the monotony and too drawn into salary/mortgage/expensive toys to pay for, etc, etc.

The opportunity came in spring 2001 and I moved west of Mull, am not allowed to earn a salary just now, but have a fantastic time volunteering for an aviation organisation, flying all sorts of varied trips for them on vintage and relatively modern aircraft. Sometimes I cannot believe how lucky I am. When the work permit does appear I will do my best to stick with this type of aviation rather than return to the airlines, assuming I have any choice in the matter :\

I have a friend who has done it the opposite way, bush flying all over Canada and now working for the airlines. She's already looking to move away from them in the next few years.

There is so much more to aviation than working for the airlines, great tho' that can be. I watched the post 9/11 fiasco from afar, sad to see what was happening and relieved not to be caught up in it.

[Chalky]

The pay and conditions may have been eroded over the past years, but the job still beats the pants off working in some daft office trying to sell snowballs to eskimos - or something equally pointless - and kidding yourself that it's important and fulfilling.:yuk:

[Bigmouth]

All of the above true.
But I still wouldn´t want any other job, make that profession.

fernytickles, you got room for one more where you´re at?

[Mooney12]

Better than an office job and women love it. Mention your a pilot to the ladies and they always seem extremely interested and impressed. Mention your an accountant or doing some office job and well..

[Well thats Me]

Well you guys can flame me no problems but working for engineering is no bowl of cherries at the worlds favorite ( Yawn ),i want to make a corrections from within the fence as it were for BA.

Boss Raptor --- At £50K-£60K the current Captains' salaries equates (acceptably IMO) with an average senior accountant.


Well boss best of luck to them and this is not a bitter and twisted moan but at a top incrument ( that just occurs each year not performance related ) a BA shorthaul captain can earn £120K plus expenses and retire at 55,this was apparently due to benchmarking with other european carriers.....

As a poor lower than low engineer i can tell you sums like this are 4 years wages for me ( and that doesnt go near the expenses at £10/hr away from base ) the shorthaul captains are at the bottom of the fleet pay scales,if pilots wages arnt what they used to be then by C****t you were paid well before.

[A4]

This Profession has it all. Good and bad. Overall though it's good IMO. Sure a night Bodrum or Tenerife landing back at 7.30 am isn't exactly fun, but a morning PMI or blast down to MAH is great fun!

Rosters are reasonably stable and improving, 650 hrs/year, reasonable amount of time off (particularly winter). And for this I get £70k/year.

Would I want to go back to 9 to 5 in a (windowless) office. What do you think ?

Best job in the world despite all the attendant bs.

A4 :ok:

[Hahn]

"fly for food" for 17 years now....and would do it again and again and again! No question one of the best jobs on this planet.

[Ambulance 'Charlie Alpha']

I love everything about my job and wouldn't trade it for the world. It was my dream and now I'm doing it for real. I never cared about the money, pension, terms etc., I just wanted to fly for a living, and now I am.

Never thought I'd earn as much money as I am now, even on a meager piston/turbo captain's salary...and I get to fly in one of the most spectacular/scenic parts of our beloved rock in the ocean IMHO!

ACA

[Yorky Towers]

Done the the tyre fitting for Kwik-Fit, & Buy your telly from "Comet" delivery driving.. (Luckily no bloody McDonalds in them days!)and a number of other occupations! Eventually ended up flying the 'dream-come-true' jets(albeit an old one) for a living! My own thoughts are, "How bloody lucky you old Aviators are for being about when Flying an Aircraft meant Flying an Aircraft, There are times when I wish I was born earlier....Flying is in the blood and finance has no sway to the addicted.:)

[Well thats Me]

Yorky Towers

Refreshing to find someone with your outlook and believe it or not things were like that even for the non flying types. Excuse my ranting posts but its difficult conversing with individuals that do the job 50/50 for the love and appreciation of it when you have to deal with pilots that stick with it just for the money.

[MOR]

It certainly isn't the job it was. Newbies won't realise that, of course, and will still queue for the chance to fly a shiny jet. I did that, and will never regret it- I had a ball.

Now, however, I am faced with increasing hours, roster turbulence, a company that wants me to move base every couple of years because they can't make their mind up what they want to do, endless nightstops, and generally static pay and conditions. I have seen the effect all this has on my family, and I have had enough. I'm off to do something else.

It constantly amazes me how some colleagues value the highly restricted flying we do, more than their marriages. Many value managing the autopilot more than raising their kids.

Being out of aviation doesn't necessarily mean sitting in an office. You are the master of your own destiny. I'm starting a business that, on pessimistic projections, will earn me twice the amount of my essentially stagnant training captains salary. No, it isn't MLM... :p

For those who are happy, excellent - good for you. However, there is no doubt that wholesale erosion of pay, conditions and prestige is taking place across the industry. New entrants will never achieve the relative salaries of their current, senior peers. Companies in all branches of aviation are faced with the necesssity of improving efficiency, and trimming their costs- of which pilot salaries are a major part. Blame Stelios.

For me, the only part about the job worth having is the bit from brakes off to brakes on. The rest is not worth the hassle.

[Wings]

I love my chosen career - I'm an airline pilot.

I have flown long haul and played the nodding donkey game in the middle of the night over the Bay of Bengal, trying to raise Calcutta / Kolkata on H.F.
I have flown short haul and had the on-going stress of trying to keep the schedule throughout a six sector day.

I have had other jobs and hated them all.
Teacher, Driver, Lab Technician, Postman, all very honourable jobs and I've done them all, but they don't come close to being a pilot.

Yes, without doubt, the terms and conditions have been seriously eroded in the last 3 years especially.

Unquestionably, more and more people are trying to invade our Flight Decks and influence our decision making. Carry less fuel, carry more payload, fly a different route, choose a less suitable alternate.
Unquestionably more and more of our decisions are being questioned. Why did you offload payload to uplift more fuel? What did you say to that drunken passenger who has filed a complaint against you?

For all of this, I reassure myself with three ideas;

1. To become a pilot now requires you to invest a huge amount of money in the hope that you might get a flying job that pays well enough to justify the initial outlay. Smart young people nowdays are comparing the expense of training to become a pilot with the chance of getting a well paid flying job. For more and more, the risk is just too great and they head for other careers.

At the same time airlines are doing their best to avoid paying for pilot training.

The result is going to be in the not too distant future, too few pilots. What will happen to terms and conditions then?

2. Mayor of New York City on 11 Sept 01 was Rudolph Giuliani. His quote on being accountable for your actions as a leader would frighten those who don't / can't lead, and ring clear and true to those who choose to lead.
"More than anyone, leaders should welcome being held accountable. Nothing builds confidence in a leader more than a willingness to take responsibility for what happens during his watch."
They want to hold the captain accountable, fine. Just as long as those pointing the finger are equally prepared to accept accountability.

3. I have tried other jobs. I love flying. I have done since I first saw airliners at Heathrow in 1964. I wouldn't want to do anything else. So stop complaining and get on with the job.

Cheers

[Argus]

Flying high performance military aircraft was the most challenging, stimulating and satisfying occupation I've ever undertaken. Unfortunately, my flying career was cut short due to an accident. Tried ATC but it wasn't the same. I then opted for 'something completely different' with an intellectual challenge. Satisfying - but nothing replaces the cockpit.

[toon]

MMmmm, job is changing.

You only have to read the paper to see that you can earn £50-£60k + selling mobile phones.

We are working harder than ever, companies still 'bragging' about the low seat price's which is having a damaging affect on the industry, you should not (and in reality cannot) travel on an aircraft for £30, our pensions are at risk (all industries thanks to gorden brown i know), staff travel benefits ? - better off checking the bucket shops, we have an address which means we are being milked by the tax system and security has gone stupid.

Do i like my job - love it. :ok:

[ZQA297/30]

The graph at the link below says it all. In the constant battle to reduce costs, someone has to be the casualty. The most obvious target......... those overpaid bus drivers.

As long as pilots are willing to settle for less, the downward spiral will continue until the inevitable shortage of trained pilots happens.
Then, when the supply and demand pendulum finally and inexorably swings back in favour of pilots, they will be pilloried as being "unreasonable, unrealistic, greedy, etc, etc," when they attempt to make back the lost ground. Wait and see.

Flying is a very nice hobby, but you have to have another source of income if you don't want to see your standard of living decline steadily.


http://www.flightpaths.com.au/chapters/decline3.pdf

[Rananim]

The poll misses the point entirely.Dissatisfaction with the job today does not originate from poor rostering and reduced benefits(although these factors are important).Rather it is a case of a gradual erosion of the values and integrity that the pilot community once held.Forced by economic downturn,we are left now with only a handful of decent airlines where mutual respect and common decency are still to be found.Pilots are reduced to system operators and their authority clearly stops at the flight deck door.Not only is the mutual respect between management and pilots gone,but there is no bond between pilots and flight attendants.In some airlines,there is outright war.
CRM and unnecessarily fussy SOP's have eroded the Commander's authority and its hard to find an airline where airmanship is king these days.
The arrival of low-cost has been blamed yet the irony is that Southwest is undoubtedly one of the best airlines on the planet.Pilots are given the equipment they want,SOP's are not intrusive("standard Boeing,keep it simple"),Commanders are not afraid to exercise discretion,there's no grassing,FA's are full of cheer and dont think its beneath them to actually be polite to the passengers,and management is the best in the industry.
Many aspire to this model but most fail miserably I'm afraid.It is not easy to run a great airline these days.

[Stan Woolley]

Rananim

Dissatisfaction with the job today does not originate from poor rostering and reduced benefits(although these factors are important)

I disagree with this view, assuming the operation is safe. For me rostering is the most important factor by far in keeping me satisfied.

Britannia is the only company I've worked for that I thought had really good rostering - Easyjets' was a flight safety hazard, often pushing right to the limit just because they could, even if in reality this approach caused knock on problems all down the line.

Am I alone in wondering why the law seems to be reducing all my friends working hours while as pilots we are heading at high speed the other way?

Can someone tell me why I as an individual do not have the same working rights as everyone else just because I fly aeroplanes for a living?

[Kurtz]

As someone said earlier, the bit from "Brakes off" to "Brakes on" is pretty nearly as good as ever it was. The trouble is all the rest of the crud, you have said it all already. Most of us were probably not motivated by the money alone, and even those who were have a personal graph where the hassle and lack of a life eventually cross the remuneration line.
For more and more of us, that point is reached earlier and earlier - the downside is increasingly not worth the upside. However, once in, most of us could not afford to get out, so we are stuck with watching our Ts and Cs and lifestyle accelerate downhill.

I don't have any answers, but I've just left BA for a non-airline post which will keep me flying albeit on a much reduced level, but should hand me my life and family back without any financial pain. Will I miss the upsides - you bet, the downsides?.....well, I have framed my last roster to remind me whenever I wish I was still there!:ok:

[witchdoctor]

Is it worth it?

You bet your life it is!

I'd love to know what the dissatisfied moaners did before aviating, because all those like me who had truly abominable jobs before deciding to become a pilot seem to adore the job.

Even the worst paid FO earns more than I ever have (and I'm an intelligent, hard-working 33 yr old graduate), and I worked hours that would make a junior doctor wince, with all the stupid rostering combinations that only a sadist can dream of, and having to take all the crap from joe public that your CC's have to put up with every day.

I've wanted to be a pilot all my life, and the thought of it not being worth it never entered my head, even mid-training when 9/11 occurred. I'm not here for the money, and I can't imagine how thoroughly dull it must be sitting next to the beancounter Scrooge who is.

[Dogma]

Nice one Witchydokita,

I agree with you for the most part, but make no mistake I am here for the cash as well.

Being properly remunerated- good pay, final salary pension, loss of licence, PHI, health care, life insurance, medicals, ...etc is what I expect:p And get, if not I am out of here.

Good luck!

[Stelios]

I feel 2 things.
One is that I got to where I wanted to, well done me, money, sky all day, family, admiration by others and of course my good looks.

Then I think, I am being used to death, flogged by brutal-selfish management who have absolutely no interest in me or my welfare, untrained and unknowledgeable young crewing persons, who are younger than my kids.
I have no breaks during my often 10+ hour long 4 sector day, I get no food, no transport home.
When I get home I fall over. I get 4 hours then bed, then up again and again and again.
Days off are necessary to re gain the lost energy, but no time enough to do something really, as soon you've got to go to bed again to repeat the slog.

In short it's mostly tiring and could be potentially fatal one day.

I am planning to get out as soon as I achieve my financial goals, so I could live in relative peace and reasonable financial health.

All that matters is ME and MY FAMILY.

THE SKY IS NOT ENOUGH!!!

[ZQA297/30]

The thing is, there are two distinct schools of thought here.There are the starry-eyed dreamers who would fly for nothing if you gave them a chance, then there are the hard-nosed professionals who built the aviation industry through the learning curve, and paid their dues on the way.

We all start as starry-eyed dreamers, but pretty soon it becomes obvious that this is a profession and one must adopt a professional attitude.

From observation, the transition takes under 2 years in my airline, and the most vocal right now are those who have been in the airline under 5 years. The experience may be different in other airlines, as we have had pretty bad mgmt/crew relations over the last 4 years or so, but I suspect the principle will be maintained.

My reading of the consensus of those that I speak to is that we all love flying, but the bull that goes with it is increasing exponentially, and the rewards are decreasing by inverse proportion to the bull.

When I started flying professionally (1964), the ops manual was all in a 1 inch binder, now there are 7 manuals, all of which stress a 3 inch binder. Most of the time now I am a glorified systems monitor, occasionally steering round the odd thunderstorm.
That is not flying.

Punching out the automatics, and really flying is much frowned on, so that sometime soon hand flying will be a forgotten skill.

I have just flown my last flight before starting retirement to-morrow, and I look back with nostalgia . :sad:
I will miss the flying, but I am glad I did it in "those days". Small pistons , tail draggers, heavy recips, turbo-props large and small, jets large and small, I loved them all, but faced with how it is now I am not sure I would want to start a career in the present circumstances.
Then again, I suppose those who are starting now will be saying the same in 30 or 40 years time.

[Stan Woolley]

ZQA297/30

Congratulations ! Enjoy your retirement. :ok:

[EL CAPITAN]

Well I've been flying for 20 years, and is the only job I've ever done (if you can call it a job). Did short houl now doing long and have enjoyed every bit of it, so my perspective is only from this side , of course things have changed last 20 years, even I changed companies since my first one went out of bussiness, even with all the High and Lows of my career, would I do it again?????? Betch ya I would....

[N380UA]

I first was confronted and immediately fascinated with aviation in the 70s. The sound and smell of the low-bypass turbines of those old and glorious aircraft were the symbol of the “Big wide world” Big strong tough pilots and cute petite flight attendants travelling the world, driving big cars and living in large houses. AWSOME!!
So in the early nineties I went for the gold, paid a lot of money and just as I though I got it, some bearded fuddermucker with some bed sheets on his head hade to screw it all up for me. At first I thought my life is over… but it wasn’t. I still work in aviation but now second guess if I’d still be happy flying under these conditions. Major or low-cost doesn’t really matter as a new stiff on the block as I gather. They’ll (management) will ream you either way. You’ll be hustled by high school dropouts TSA agents and you never know which side is currently trying to blow you out of the sky.
Having said that, I don’t regret for one second having done what I did. If were to be in the pointy end at fl360 id probably be FDH (fat, dumb and happy), but I’m not sure, knowing what I know today if id did it all over again. It just doest seem as glorious as it was thirty years ago. I don’t mean to say that I don’t like flying any more, I still fly privately, but for a living….?

[maxy101]

A the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the job isn´t what it was even 10 years ago, let alone 30 years ago. Since 9/11 or whatever you want to call it, the "bull****" has got to a point where many of my colleagues have had enough. This, on top of the poor management and rapidly declining pay is forcing me to look at other opportunities. We all start out as starry eyed dreamers, but when you have a mortgage or two to pay, as well as a family to support, you start to begrudge a company that seems happy to pay cabin crew well above the going rate for the job and yet begrudges paying me.
(edited for bad grammar)

[swish266]

I still enjoy flyin the "sausage" into FRA or MUC without any prompts from ATC, coz I read their minds, I still enjoy a short visual app at DXB at night, but I hate this job .
I am an expat since '95, flew for 3 diff airlines but I got the same s--t treatment by the Americans, Brits, Australians and Southafricans in the FLT OPS management of these companies. I was always treated like a fart in the cockpit. This killed my love for flying. I am only pushing for the check these days. I cannot understand why these guys treat everybody that is not a native English speaker like second-hand human being...
I know doctors, engineers are also discriminated, but by far not as much as pilots.
There are a lot of fine American, British, Australian and Southafrican blokes I fly with, hard living, hard working like myself. These are the usual pilots a guy meets in a bar in any of these 4-star anonymos hotels. But I always had to eat s--t when I was being interviewed by the bosses. Or hav to put up with a smirk when they look at my CV or passport...

[walkingthewalk]

This thread is fast becoming a realist's view on what it is really like in the profession.

Some are quick on the trigger with "well, ya don't have the commitment" when they read messages from those with doubts about the job that they are doing or even the job that they are thinking of doing.

It seems that very few enjoy it. Those that do, must either have no other life outside the job or have a very understanding partner. I cannot understand how they can have children and enjoy a stable family life.....

[saddest aviator]

Wow, us professionals seem to be in two camps those that love flying and will step on any one to climb that greasy pole! Those who have quickly realised that all the bs is not worth it but are now so entrenched that there is no way out. This is then compounded by the most inadequate management I have ever experienced in any industry. The way we pilots treat our fellow professionals when we move into management is an absolute discrace. Where is our collective self respect? Why have we allowed this to happen! Senior company managements will only promote to positions of pilot power those that will not challange their visions of the way forward. Hence we get what we deserve .Poor pay and conditions constantly eroded quality of life all that contribute to the destruction of our home life. why are there no managers out there with vision and honour who exercise power with responsibility and I meanRESPONSIBILTY prepared to fight their corner in front of bean counters etc. The only reason company managers treat pilots the way they do is because WE LET THEM

[Dogma]

Christ on a bike... I am not leaving my airline. Sounds like hell out there!

swish266: Sorry to hear it, however its not the case in my experience.

Beats working for a mainland European carrier, someone from the UK would never get a look in there:{

[Yeager]

Hi there,

I´ve been flying for some 10 years soon. It has taken me around the world and I´ve been paid for it. The salery and the pension is quite good - actually a lot better than at many other professions.

After 10/11. Sure things have been put under pressure by customers/employers. We are now working harder and our CoS are constantly being looked into.

What the future will bring - nobody really knows for sure.
I remember why I choose to become a pilot. I wanted to fly those big birds - it was that simple. Later on I realised that there were lots of benifits to it - and a few downturns as well. Thats life.

Wish you all a good life.
Yeager

[triplespool]

I think conditions will improve one day, but it will cost a lot.
It will be when a LCC piles-in somewhere. The voice recorder seals it "this is number 6 today mate, I can hardly keep my eyes open". We all done the theory on probability in CRM did we not? It will happen, it just takes time.

I would not give it up though.

trip

[dicksynormous]

Love it. end of discussion.

12500 hrs and time to squeeze in another 12500.

A bad day at work is still better than a good day in the general pop.
In fact i dont have bad days at work, i do what i love. Cant buy that.
Well ok i love my girlfriend , and do her as well but thats a different post:ok:

[Cap 56]

Aviation has something for everybody.

If you do it only for the money, you will get bored very quickly and your standards/enthusiasm may drop.

Family life is compromised but, any job that would pay the same would ask you to put in a lot of hours as well.

Would I do it again? Yes, I would but would want to work for an airline were my roster would not be at the expense of my children while they are still at home.

[Kaptin M]

Sadddest aviator sums up my 30 + years and 16.5 K + hours in G.A. as a charter, commuter and instructor, and subsequently domestic short haul... international long haul..and back to (foreign) domestic short haul.
You can shove those "back-of the-clock, all nighters" where the sun don't shine!!

In my modest opinion, we are getting paid DIDDLY SQUAT, in comparison to the so-called "airline managers" of today, for the cr@p we have to put up with, to get to - and maintain - our positions!
It's not just a matter of doing "x" number of years in General Aviation (akin to an apprenticeship/degree course) before moving on to an airline job
The TRUTH is MOST G.A. pilots will NOT make airlines.....the cull rate is exceptionally (when compared to Uni dropout/failure rates), very, very high!
Probably around the 85% FAILURE rate.

Having "cracked" airlines, a pilot is then REQUIRED to maintain standards that are specifically tested for the entire rest of his/her career - regardless of past, historical performance.
Standards in the areas of practical knowledge, medical fitness, manipulative ability, and personal presentation, on a DAILY BASIS.
This has ALWAYS been the case for us.

But meanwhile, we have seen the rise of people who contribute absolutely NOTHING toward the revenue production, taking an increasingly greater role in the running of airlines - people whose presence wouldn't be missed if they didn't show up for work for 12 months - unlike that of a pilot, who would NEED to have his work covered from Day #1 of his absence.

And so THAT is what is primarily p!ss!ng me off these days!
Pull ALL of those desk jockeys out of the office for a week/month/year, and see what affect that (DOES NOT) have on the day-to-day ops and profitability of the operation....then try doing the same thing with us.

Pilots could SUCCESSFULLY run an airline without the "managers" - but "managers" wouldn't get the show off the ground from day #1, without pilots!

[Crack]

Kaptin M.

Sorry mate I can nay agree with your last paragraph.

I do agree that the industry is (in my opinion) Roo-Ted.

As long as there is no solidarity between pilots, as long as we have ego's , as long as industry will play one pilot off against another, or play union against contract,as long as pilots prostitute themselves for their objective, as long as we let the industry use individual contracts, as long as we accept less, we will continue to get Roo-Ted.

Most pilots I know couldn't even read a balance sheet, and I have seen it so many times when pilots of position, steer a airline in a particular direction over A/C type.

I still like to fly, man I still like it like hell, I can still remember going out to the aeroclub all those years ago, early in the morning, smelling the cut grass, the dew on the aircraft, the apprehension preceeding a flt,
the faces of my old instructors, and their particular characters.

Now you realise how confused I am, call me a romantic, call me a fool,? to go to work,away from my family for weeks on end, get paid less now than I was in 96, am on my 4th individual contract, yep I feel really used and cheap.


Then as my 86 year old Dad say's to me, living your dream can be tough?.

Me, I am looking to get out, I will try to put something back into the industry, maybe at 52 I could do an instructors rating,and go out to the aeroclub early in the morning, and relive the dream?.

Get paid peanuts though, but get to smell the grass.

In one of the other posts, I think I said:

Imagine what would happen if we just stopped operating all the aluminium for a couple of days, I am talking everything that flies?.

Dreams are free huh.

Call me a Whore.

Me ,I'm off to six bells, to smell the hops.

PS: Danny a good one.





:mad: :{ :ugh:

[pilotpilot]

The most basic change in our job as a pilot has been the PERSONALITY type required in the cockpit. Automation has increased, safey has increased and aircraft are better designed. Also, since airspace has become more crowded eg: LHR, FRA, we are having increasingly less and less say on the flight path of the aircraft itself: our descent is planned, our speeds are planned, the way we tackle an approach is planned: practically everything is dictated by people outside the cockpit. The role of a pilot is now more to do with monitoring and managing, and cross checking other peoples decisions. Add to that, outside of the cockpit, the pilots have less of a say than before in company's decisions and the way rosters are planned.

We are having to become more of yes-men to cope.

I think this is what is annoying pilots the most, especially the established ones.

[Devils Advocate]

Kaptin M.... I hear what you’re saying ( kind of ) but I’m sure that you could put it more succinctly – I know that you’re really a team player at heart but what you’ve written above didn’t come across as such (imho).

As such, I too am with 'Crack' in that I concur that without our office-bound brethren we’re stuffed.

From my own personal experience, the Commercial and / or Financial / Accounts / Engineering / Crewing / Operations / Systems / etc. departments exhibit a dedication and put-in hours ( i.e. “Working Time Directive; what’s that ?!” ) that would put many of us flying crew to shame, and they regularly do this under enormous pressure; for which they get little or no thanks or recognition.

Nb. I’ve been an airline manager and as such I speak from experience.

Furthermore, many of our ground based brethren are paid salaries that we would find derisory ( yet they’re often far better academically qualified than we are ) albeit that I will concede that ‘their jobs’ aren’t tied to regular sim checks and / or medical renewals – though they, just like us, tend to lose them if they screw-up ( remembering that they’re cheaper / easier to fire than we are...... apparently ?! ).

In any event, without all these people working-away behind the scenes we ( flying crew ) would find it very hard to 1) keep flying, and 2) get paid for doing it.

You say that airlines are full of pilots who could do a better job. Well I beg to differ, i.e. I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of pilots ( and I know quite a few ) who could attempt the finer points of aircraft leasing, fuel hedging, treasury / Forex management, corporate law, contract law, employment law, raising Venture Capital, obtaining and keeping an Operating License / AOC, etc, etc, etc..... i.e. it all looks easy until you have to do it for real yourself ( thus somewhat akin to flying an aeroplane - with a layman saying that pilots are nought more than 'button pushers' )..... I’m sure you get my point.

That said, I’ll agree with you that some airlines are top heavy with ‘Barclays Bankers’ ( though fortunately not my lot ) – and wherein it’s those airlines that are ‘lean, mean, well managed and that respect ALL of their staff’ which tend to win through at the end of the day ( at least I hope so ).

In summary “There is no ‘I’ in team !”

W.r.t. the title of this thread: I too will agree that the T&C’s in aviation ain’t what they used to be, but I’ll ask you this...... next time you’re on your way to work, should you become stuck in a bit of rush-hour / rat race traffic, take a look around you and ask which, if any, of the booted and suited individuals in the cars adjacent would you swap jobs with ?

For myself the answer is NONE – I love my job and wherein, for all the recent post 9/11 irritations, it’s still something that gives me a thrill to be able to do – and it sure has hell beats the rat race !

[jigsawblue]

I think Devils advocate puts it very well.

I never made it to the point where I got paid for flying. I got the licence and ratings but somehow fell through the cracks as many do. I've never become quite reconciled to that fact. Unfortunately I never had a back up because of course I knew I would get the 'job' eventually. As a result when my world collapsed around me I was essentially an unskilled worker in a world that demands skills and training. So I sit here tonight in the middle of a twelve hour shift doing a worthless pointless job for just above the minimum wage. I get stress in spades, no job satisfaction and believe you me, incompetent bean counting management is not just prolific in the aviation industry.

They changed the shift roster recently which means we all took a drop in take home of about a hundred a month. Then they wondered why morale was in the gutter! Why do I stay in the job? Well because at my age and with my lack of skills it's all I can get for now. Having a pilot's licence is the most useless thing in the world unless you can fly.

Tomorrow morning as I go home shattered I'll look up at the contrails of the early morning transatlantics and think 'If only'.

Because the truth is that all of the problems pilots have with lousy management and stupid rosters and even being away from home are shared by many if not most on the ground. In this world only the lucky few have an easy ride and get job satisfaction and rewards in equal doses. Long hours and seven day weeks are the norm in many professions these days. Outside the professions where I find myself it's worse. You are at the mercy of every jumped up tosser with a title.

At least for pilots when the cockpit doors close they can carry on doing something they probably enjoy. If you don't enjoy it then why carry on? I do understand that it loses it's glamour and allure very quickly. But at least it had some in the first place. Most jobs are tedious and dull from the start.


So if you think you have it bad think of the likes of me. We take the same if not worse crap with none of the rewards. At least you can still fly. The reason, I presume you took to the trade in the first place?

[toon]

witchdoctor, you have to remember that you may well do it 'for the love of flying' and you may well think that other people here do it for the money, but you have to remember that we all started off with a love of flying and what alot of people are saying here is the job has changed and the terms and conditions have been erroded.
I have no doubt that in 10 years from now you too will look back and remember 'the good old days'.

[fireflybob]

On this theme, interesting to note in Flight's article on page 8 this week "EU pilots protest at duty hike; US crash probe cites fatigue" - note the following extract:-

Michael O'Leary, chief executive of Ryanair, says if the new rules affect pilot rostering at all it will be to limit flexibility further "for the most cosseted groups of employees in the world."

It kinda changes the meaning of "cosseted", eh?

No doubt in my mind that the job is not what it used to be, glad I have done it and got the T-shirt but would not recommend any sane person to enter the airline business these days.

[walkingthewalk]

fireflybob:

re: Michael O'Leary and "for the most cosseted groups of employees in the world."

If his attitude is an indicator of the way things will be in the future then God help those in the job and those they carry in the back !

[whitingiom]

Sitting behind a desk, with only 7 hours on my PPL, no time to get the studying done and aged 41, it looks pretty glamorous from here.

I fly (at the back) lots in the course of my job and the boys and girls up front have nothing but my admiration for the way they fly me in and out of the little old Isle in awful visibility winds etc., but if anyone fancies a job swap, please e mail me!

Keep it going up there

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well!

I started lessons in 1981...23 years/11000 hrs later I have to say that I still love my job.

My first 9 years of full time paid flying was bush flying in PNG...C185, Islanders,C402s, Twotters then Bandits. Then got the 'airline' job and flew DHC7 and F28...just bush flying in bigger aircraft....SHEDLOADS of fun:ok:

Then Corporate jets, as a Chief Pilot/C&Ter for a few years...wonderfull fun flying Falcons...but ignorant non aviation management destroyed that company.

I was one of those Management pilots who stood up for my crews, when warranted..I also sacked one and was nano seconds from sacking a second when it became obvious that he was so far up managements arse he was untouchable....as well as incompetent. I ended up getting sacked for sticking to my principles but would do so again...better to die standing than live on your knees.:ok:

A year, essentially, unemployed followed although I flew casually in a Conquest 2...great fun and it was very interesting awakening the old single pilot IFR skills...glad I flew that aeroplane as I'd always admired them from afar. I also drove taxis again:ugh: something I'd done for 5 years when putting myself through PPL/CPL etc. Soul destroying, pityfully paid work.

Now I'm back in the cockpit (B767) for a Asian Carrier doing long haul to Europe via the middle east as well as asian regional flying. Back in the RHS for a little while and loving it.

OK sometimes when I haven't managed enough sleep,for the multitudinous reasons we sometimes don't and it's 6 hrs into an 8hr sector you wonder whether there's more to life...and trying to raise Kolkatta/Mumbai etc can be a losing battle..so I just ignore the pricks...they've got my selcal they'll find me in the end, why stress over it?

And yes I'd happily shoot the morons that come up with the so called 'security' checks at places like LHR which completely waste everyone's time...

BUT!!!

I have the perspective of the recent enforced holiday. I was truly unhappy, even though I was flying a little bit in my own lighty and the Conquest. I like flying jets and I like being an airline pilot.

Family Life?

I am a divorced single parent to a teenage girl. What lifestyle could I offer her if I was driving taxis? If I left flying and did a degree in accounting, teaching, Law, Medicine whatever would she be better off? I have the educational qualifications and brains to do any of those but guess what...I wouldn't be happy. I dont want to be any of those!!!

Yes she whinges sometimes about me being away from home. This is the first longhaul job where I am away for up to 8 days straight. I have a live in amah who looks after Chelsea really well and she is mature beyond her years anyway. She'll head off to a really good Boarding school next year for her final two years of high school, her choice..she's looking forward to it. I could not afford either of those options without the well paid job I have now.

And while I'm away a lot I also get chunks of days at home...we have a good life in a nice house in a safe country with long terms friends close and home/family only 6 hrs away in an ID90 Business class seat!!! Oh and 7 weeks annual leave!!!

In the not to distant future I'll be back in the LHS earning a multiple of 4 x times (net) the aerage gross wage of my country of origin.

Airlines the world over...well the non western end...are finding it more and more difficult to attract qualified professionals to fly the jets they keep ordering from Boeing/Airbus...because aviation is no longer looked upon favourably by the 'instant gratification for minimal effort' average youth of today.

I firmly believe that airlins will have to start competing for pilots soon and there's only one way to do that...attractive packages.

Asia is set to boom huge in the next two decades before I hit mandatory retirement... I can see no options for airline management other than to offer more money to experienced pilots, their cadetship schemes won't come close to keeping up.

Do I have rose tinted glasses?

I don't think so...I have seen every kind of mismanaged f**kup this industry has to offer. There is no reason why I shouldn't be set for a reasonable retirement by my mid 50s...thanks to tax free wages that will go up, I believe, in the next years. I reserve the right however to fly on if health and desire to do so remain..or nick off and sail my boat/fiddle with my lighty!!

But you should hear the whinging and moaning from some of the senior guys where I am. But the whingers eventually move on to 'greener' pastures that turn out the same shade of ****brown as they left and a few years later the moaning starts again...you get those in any industry.

It is, IMO, all a matter of perspective. Pilots who have been a long time in one place (and seen a downturn in T&Cs) believe that better options are out there...well go for it, a change is as good as a holiday as the saying goes.

I always figure though that companies tha pay LOTS do so for a reason. If you think the guys at KA are deliriously happy think again..or the CX guys...HK wears thin on families too and even the KA guys doing shorthaul within the same time zone find they put their families back in Oz or wherever due to schooling/pollution reasons...so they drink to much and bemoan their lot and stack it away for early retirement...if divorce doesn't clean them out at the 11th hour.:sad:

But I still see the younger guys from here and Oz busting a gut to get out of here or VB and head off to CX/KA/EK...I've got mates in all those places, we all enjoy our jobs and have various stresses but when we compare what we get, add in the costs of living where we're at there's not a lot in it...I'm happy where I am and they're not unhappy with their choices either....perspective.

It could always be a lot worse...we may not have made it in the first place...and all my mates are aviators. We like to fly..I don't associate with people who are 'monitors' and 'system managers' first and foremost...my mates are aviators who appreciate the clever gadgets in their present mount..and appreciate the limitations of those gadgets.

Oh and some bad news for the people who think they make all the decisions about routing/fuel/ etc...you only think that happens. Those of us who've been around a while have seen you come and go with the repetitive reinvention of the wheel attendant with successive generations of blunties. Some of us actually take great joy in carrying the correct fuel load and getting the route we think will give the best ride for the pax and save the company some money:ok:

It's what we do :}


Having said all that..if we could earn as much money flying a Beaver on floats or whatever we would have stayed doing that...that's just not the way the world works unfortunately...we did that as young tyros and moved on. And let's face it guys...bush flying is young mans work...12-20 sectors a day was a hoot at 25 and still quite enjoyable at 33 but ya gotta grow up some time...and so many of my friends and workmates didn't get that opportunity :ugh:

Chuckles:}

[birdbrain]

Man, what a wonderful thread - at last...
I have a PPL for a number of years now and for a long time have been struggling with the idea of going further.. multi/ir etc, and having a go at the job scene. I have made a definite decision now.
As a PPL I dont have any job worries - with regard to flying - I can go where I like, when I like and with whom I like - Or solo !
I have no stress(unless the radio fails or similar ) and am quite happy to bop around the place.
Having had a read of another thread re pay rates, I think I should definitly stay put. I dont have to have any six-month health checks, Uniforms and I can turn up for work with a bit of stubble, no tie and in jeans stinking of last nights beer if I want.... and no one will question me.
If I want to visit an exotic location, I can buy a ticket, get there(thanks to you guys ) then just lounge around and enjoy the sights, sort of 'quality time' instead of rushing around the world and visiting all the airports...
I know you all have done the above and more, but I think theres more of a thrill/excitement if one does it because one wants to, as opposed to hard(!) cash.
Needless to say I LURVE my current employment, start whenever I want, no roster thingys, finish whenever I want to, take days off as I wish and get paid lots... nah, I think the position of the Airline Captain has lost a lot of its mistique, glamour(?) and authority, and with all the lo cost trips available now, that exotic destination is not so exotic anymore as its within financial reach of most of a greater travelling Joe.
Just to add insult to injury, almost everybody who has flown their own customised lear, 747 or even Concorde in the comfort of their lounge, assumes that they could just jump into the left hand seat of a real bird and 'do it'

Good luck to yawl, I'm just sitting here trying to subdue my jealousy with 'realistic' reasoning !:sad:

need another 'fix', so, off to the flying club now....:p

End of meandering thought. !

[corsair]

birdbrain where the hell do you work? I want a job there now! Civil service? Nah no money in it. It certainly can't be a private sector company. No wonder you don't want to be an airline pilot. You might have to work :oh:

I liked chimbu chuckles post. It just proves to some extent that life is what you make of it.

I do think he is right. The job may have lost it's allure to people, particularly like birdbrain with his fantastic job. Why would birdbrain give up what he does for a job filled with uncertainty and run by characters like O'Leary who seems to think he can treat pilots and passengers alike for as long as he likes adn still make massive profits.

No, that will change. Become a pilot is massively difficult these days particularly under the JAA. The people who have the money to train as pilots won't need to and wouldn't put up with the hassle and those that don't have the money can't train.

I can forsee major changes in the industry in a few years.

[Redline]

I sit there at FL400 getting cancer, always knackered, reading the newspaper, talking about cars, women, motorbikes, etc. Bloody Fantastic.

The industry sucks, it's full of sharks (O'leary, Webster, Eddington etc). We are (to them) an extremely expensive pain in the bum.

Medicals, SOP's, LPC's, FLIDRAS, Security, SEP's, ASR's, blah blah are just irritations to getting up there FL400 getting cancer, knackered, reading Classic Car, talking about boats, holidays (or lack of), money (or lack of), management mismanagement, women.

I've stopped paying into my pension because I'll be dead before I reach retirement (probably) from cancer or some fatigue induced breakdown. That's if they let us retire at 55 or 60 or 65 but I suspect they'll have moved those goalposts by then..

My pay rise this year was just pathetic. My glorious leaders bang on about sharing in the success when in reality they pay me the minimum they feel they can get away with and no more.

But..... tomorrow morning I will get up, kiss my beautiful ( ex - hostie) wife farewell for the day, drive my sports car to work, report with plenty of beautiful potential ex wives, climb up to FL400 get another dose of radiation, read the Telegraph, talk about tits, wine, being knackered, or whatever I manage to find in common with my fellow flight deck prisoner.

Fantastic :ok:

[Devils Advocate]

Redline - mate, that is spot on ! :ok:

[Easy Glider]

Redline.

That is without doubt the most entertaining post I have ever read on this forum...Nice one mate!!:ok: :ok:

[Stan Woolley]

I've stopped paying into my pension because I'll be dead before I reach retirement (probably) from cancer or some fatigue induced breakdown.

Redline - mate, that is spot on !

That is without doubt the most entertaining post I have ever read on this forum...Nice one mate!!

While you losers live fast and die young please excuse me and many others of wanting a more reasonable life expectancy. Do you think O'Leary and Webster expect to die in their fifties?

Wake up for goodness sake!!

[Redline]

Stan...... Fella you obviously didn't enjoy the tongue in cheek side of my post where as the other guys (and gals) presumably did.

But then I guess if I'd flown with you today and then driven my sports car back home to be greeted by my beautiful (ex hostie) wife, the first thing she would ask me was 'how was your day darling' to which I'd have replied ' It was murder gorgeous, I was flying with some anal tw@t called Stan'...............:cool:

[Stan Woolley]

Not anal about much but I make no apology about being anal over this. Apathy rules as usual! :rolleyes:

[saddest aviator]

My God we really are the biggest saddest bunch of egotistical whinging BS merchants. We all talk the talk but where is any semblance of solidarity. I can honestly say that after 20 yrs in this industry its decline as far as T &C s is concerned has absolutely nothing to do with the market . Gentlemen Ladies look no further than to ourselves.

[Irishboy]

Chances are, you'd be better rewarded as a plumber!

My friend earns €2,000 a week as a plumber (the bastard)!! Beat that!!

[walkingthewalk]

irishBoy:

It is still a sh*tty job .......< sorry !>

On a more serious note, it is a good example of how valuable
it is to have a trade. Perhaps the ATPL training should start with
a year as a plumbers mate - as you will need to earn money *after* you finish the ATPL course ;)

[jerrystinger]

Redline - I prefer to take a luxury break at least once or twice a month, drive my sports car to the airport, relax in the lounges, flirt with beautiful, potential ex wives, read the telegraph, actually drink first/club class wines, not just talk about tits, but actually look at some (discreetly!) all while being chauffeured around the skies by someone who can only dream/imagine the above.

[Kaptin M]

Personally, I believe that we (pilots) are being screwed NOW, for as much employers believe they can, realising that there is a SERIOUS pilot shortage less than 3 years, or thereabouts, away.
This is what is making the pilot's job of today so crappy!

Chimbu Chuck - on his little island - apparently still enjoys, "chunks of days at home..." - something that MOST of us now do NOT.
8 days "Off" per month is becoming the "Industry standard" - something that is far LESS than the average 9-5'er, who's home EVERY night, enjoys!
Quite regularly, I and my colleagues are scheduled for a full 4 days away - leaving home around 0620am on the 1st day, and returning 2130-2200 on the 4th day - followed by 1 day "Off", and then the same pattern again.

The "novelty" of Long Haul will wear off, after a few years, Chuck, and the reality of having to fly with toothpicks between your eyelids at 2am/3am/4am (while the jerrystinger's doze, down the back), and then raise the adrenalin to a level suitable to ensure the safe arrival of the aircraft and its contents, will have you realise that BIG, NEW, and FASTER (although the 76 isn't all that new!) is b.s.!

Employers are currently capitalising on the pilot psyche, that MOST pilots will forego EVERYTHING - family, lifestyle, money... - if they can get themselves into the seat of an aeroplane that's BIGGER/NEWER/FASTER, or change seats from the rhs to the lhs - even if it means a salary DECREASE.
But, of course, we pilots always look at our present underpaid position as a temporary setback - a "stepping stone" to bigger and better!
Life IS finite - there is NO guarantee of a tomorrow, especially in aviation. So you'd better work toward improving your CURRENT position, because that might be it, for YOU!

Reading Redline's post again, I doubt that he/she is a pilot, as all of the stuff written (especially) in the final paragraph is not a consideration for pilots, but rather something IMAGINED by envious non-pilots.

The "respect" is no longer in this job, that there was a decade or so ago.
Salaries have been knocked down to far less than those of tradesmen who have far fewer responsibilities, whilst medical standards and monitoring have increased.
In spite of the intensive academic and practical study required of a pilot, it seems that ANY "desk Johnny" can now challenge our decisions - without having to worry about carrying the can, if his/her choice is faulty.

For me, I'm happy to fly whatever's paying the biggest bikkies - whether it's got 1 engine, or 4.
I still enjoy the flying - it's just the (unnecessary) bullsh!t being introduced by people with ZERO previous aviation experience that is turning the profession of pilot into a chore.

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

JStinger,
Sorry, but I'm a little confused. You obviously lead a far more glamorous/enriching/rewarding life than mere pilots, (as you take every opportunity to inform us), but cannot, (for reasons only known to you, and suspected by many of us), seem to drag yourself away from PPrune. Could you possibly be one of those sad t*****s known as a frustrated pilot? Pray tell!!!

[stunned]

Yep - very desirable but....

It can't be desirable enough to push me. In my 40's with a well paid day job the prospect of going self-improver from my current 180 hours in Spam Cans; add up the costs of training, plus no salary for however long to the percieved poor prospects of getting a well paid job at the end have always stopped me from going beyond my IMC. Did enough j/s before 9/11 to know from most of the guys & girls I met that the job is very attractive but choices I make have always kept me away from the next step. Doesn't stop me loving the experience of flying and will continue to do until "big brother" tels me I'm too old or kn******d.

[Redline]

I'm just breathless at the reaction of you guys (or gals). If you read my thread closely you will see the point is that despite being knackered, the cancer fears, the constant erosion of status/working conditions and pay, there is no other job I would contemplate. It is simply unbeatable (IMO).

That attitude stands even though I have had at least one bankrupt airline and one unexpected redundancy in just the last 3 years, and that my life is permanently blighted by Webster....

Life's to short to be debating this crap anonymously to other anonymous nobodies. Devil Advocate and Glide seem to be the only guys with a sense of humour.

Your a long time dead..................................

[Kaptin M]

You'll grow up one day, Redline, and realise that most of us are trying to PREVENT our conditions of employment from being further eroded - unlike you, who is apparently unwilling to take a stand.

p.s. The "Webster" you refer to is obviously NOT a dictionary! ("Life's to short......Your a long time dead) I coulden even spel pilut unce, know i is won!

[M.85]

I still love it...low cost work is demanding but cant ever beat a sunset at 36000ft and being paid for it..as little as it is..
maybe i should get a second job to afford a bike...
Im broke but i love the job.

Safe Flying,

M.85

[Mooney12]

Surely the money ain't that bad?:confused:

[GearDown&Locked]

hmmm... As soon as someone looks at what he/she's doing as a JOB, that means no joy, an obligation, torture perhaps.

If someone does something with pleasure, and you still have that strange feeling of getting paid for it, now thats worth every second of it, and you don't ever think about glamour or status; This is true for every occupation known to humanity.

Being a wannabe's wannabe, I'm looking forward to get my PPL only for my own satisfaction, and I'm prepared to pay (big time!)for it, just to do something you guys get paid to do: FLY.

Does the Jet Pilot Job appeals to me? sure it does, the same way my IT consultant job could appeal to a farmer (or a plummer for that matter). Its only a matter of perspective, something some of you Pilot Sirs seem to lack. There are so many people working 15/16 hrs a day, 6 days a week, getting a 30th of a standard pilot income, having to deal with obnoxious bosses, seeing no nice ladies once in a while, moving around on that smelly bus, or getting nothing to eat during the day...

For all you unhappy people out there, I suggest you take the time to think of this for a moment.

GD&L over and out.

[Kaptin M]

"having to deal with obnoxious bosses, seeing no nice ladies once in a while, moving around on that smelly bus, or getting nothing to eat during the day..."....GearDown&Locked.

Sounds like a lot of aviation jobs these days!

Admittedly there are a LOT of Redlines out there - pilots who are eager to move up another notch - preferably another 3 or 5, if they can - to bigger/faster/newer. And they're ready to forego just about EVERYTHING, just for the opportunity to sit in the seat of an aeroplane that they think will either make them "feel good" to pole, or perceive will raise their "status".

I wonder if I offered Redline the opportunity to fly a B737NG, how far he would be willing to go...let's see.
Okay, Redline, if I were to make that offer to you - to endorse you on a 737-800, would you be willing to repay the cost of the endorsement to me, spread over monthly repayments taken from your salary (which won't commence until after you are cleared to line) plus a 20% loading on the capital, applied monthly?
My guess is the Redlines would JUMP at this offer, without wanting to know any further employment details.

You're hardly SELLING yourself, are you guys? You're GIVING yourselves away - or in some cases, even PAYING someone to take you.
So what does that really make you worth? Because THAT is all that you'll get back from that enormous outlay you've made to get that far!

[Redline]

Amongst the many type ratings I have is the 737 3/4/5/6/7/8/900 and although I financed my own licence I've never sold my butt and paid for a rating.

I simply enjoy my job despite all the crap and like the people I work with. It seems to be an alien concept to our obnoxious colonial.

I will take no further part in this debate..............

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Night flying, not many weekends off, annual medical, 2 sim checks per year, annual CRM, annual SEP exams, annual line check, reducing T&Cs in real terms, worry of losing medical and whether your airline will stay in business.

Love the job still and pay is still ok but not sure whether I'd go through all that again if I had to.

[Kaptin M]

Amongst the many type ratings I have is the 737 3/4/5/6/7/8/900 737 300/400/500 is ONE endorsement...6/7/8/900 is a 2 or 3 day differences course.:rolleyes:
You DO like to "strut it", don't you Redline. (Do you wear your uniform to the supermarket on your days off? Betcha ya do:} )

I also enjoy the job (most of the time), however the continued attempts to constantly further erode conditions that were previously basic to our employ (eg. the supply of a meal whilst on duty, being supplied with safe, sanitary accomodation when away at the employer's behest, safe scheduling with due regard for fatigue, etc) are only being made easier to achieve, when people such as yourself, Redline indicate - as you have with your initial posting - that you are willing to PROSTITUTE...in fact even prostitutes charge for their services.....PROSTITUTE yourself to satisfy your ego.

Signed,
Your Obnoxious Colonial :ok:

[Andy_R]

I will admit to being amazed at the moans that are prevalent in the aviation industry. All industries are full of overworked people for little pay, but can I offer a little realism of the outside world to those that feel pretty hard done by? My own business, but at the end of the day, I don't really have much choice but to keep going. I am in too deep - scarily similar to those that are in too deep to turn back with their fATPL's.

At least you are doing something you want to do - fly aircraft.


A typical week:

Sunday - first phone call usually at 10.00 with some problem or another, then on throughout the day. Office at 18.00 to sort out the morning work for the morrow, back home about 19.30 unless I need to cover an airport job (50% of the time) inwhich case up to midnight.

Monday - 06.30 start, various duties, problem solving, taking the inevitable sales calls, dash home at 16.30 for some grub, back in office for 18.00 til 01.00

Tuesday - 06.30 start, same old stuff, home by 19.00 usually

Wednesday - 06.30 to 19.00 then cover night shift 00.00 to 04.30

Thursday - 06.30 til 19.00 quite often later til about 21.00

Friday - 06.30 til 16.30, dash home, grub back in office for 18.00 to 04.00 shift (no break)

Saturday - first call usually by 09.30, grab some time at home unless I have to go in to cover (again 50% of the time) then in at 17.00 til 05.00

and then we start all over again.

What do I earn?

Up until 2 years ago I was lucky to gross £15k. The last couple of years has been a lot kinder to me (the result of ten years bl***y hard graft) and this year I should gross £30k. But with the hours involved each week the money is still not exactly good.

I sort of fell into the business (long story) having been made redundant in the early 90's. Oh how I wish that I had stuck it out and found another sales job.

How many of you commercial pilots out there are really that close to abject tiredness constantly? So stressed that you are often close to tears? So p*****d off with what you do that you are REALLY tempted to just chuck it all in and give in? Do anything but subject yourself to another day of this?

No paid holidays, no sick pay, on call 24/7, family life (what family life?), and totally responsible for not just your own income, but that of 30 others?

Why do I do it? So that I can fly. Only privately at the moment but at least it enables me to achieve part of my dream. Whether I ever achieve a commercial licence who knows? But I'll probably die trying!!!

And no I wouldn't give my services away - not after the last few years. I have learnt that life is not worth just giving away.

[flybubba]

I think many of these posts have valid points. There has been a steady erosion of this profession, but I have seen the same thing happen to other professions (the medical field in the US for example). I can remember thinking when I was working on my ratings "can you imagine somebody paying you to do this?" Now that I have arrived, I realize that it is easy to lose perspective. I still really enjoy it. But there is nothing wrong in fighting to make this job a job worth having. Unfortunately, it is the very allure and romantic notion of the job that encourages people to work for so little to move up the ladder. But for me at some point I will say that it is time to move on to something that provides a better income and better life for my family.

[colegate]

There is a well documented and well studied matter called Taylorism, named after the person who first studied it. It is sometimes called Fordism after Henry Ford who first applied it on any large scale. It is the process of de-skilling jobs by the application of industrial processes or technology. It started in manufacturing and is now well entrenched in many industries. It is certainly deeply engrained now in aviation. It is also engrained in almost every other field of transport. A good example is on the railways where in the 1930's the job of Express train driver, and fireman, were highly sought after and were the ambition of vast numbers of people. They were highly paid and the jobs were highly skilled. Driving a train from London to Edinburgh noe is certainly a highly responsible job but it carries only a fragment of the skill that applied 70 years ago.

The role of the airline pilot is already well down the same path. For proof just ask any Concorde pilot who has converted to the 777. The job still has exactly the same responsibilities but many of the skills have been automated. EFIS, GPWS and FADEC are just three examples of that.

The job content of the role of pilot has cahnged dramatically in my time in aviation and it had followed exactly the predictable path of Taylorism. New technolgies are already out there that will speed it all up just as they have in numerous other industries. Fifty years ago no onewould have accepted driverless trains, but they now exist on large scale. It is now imposible to do anything about the deskilling.

The issue of satisfaction levels that result from that deskilling is a different issue and I detect a strong current od opinion in this topic that that is the real issue. Pilots who come into the industry now have very different motivations from those who joined 30 years ago. They do not see the status issue in the same way at all. They were after all educated in a society in which Taylorism is the norm. There are so many applicants for pilot jobs that you have to conclude that the people concerned are happy with what is being offered.

The third issue is that of pay. Taylorism also means that there is less pay cost. That is why the deskilling takes place.

It is obvious that the job of the pilot is very different from what it used to be. But you cannot reverse that process.

Finally it is worth remembering who pays the pilot. It is not the airline. It is the customer. They are voting with their wallets now very much in favour of a new order.

[Kaptin M]

cloud69, whilst very commendable for persisting with a routine such as you have detailed, you are - after all - building up the worth of your OWN business. Something that you are going to be able to sell at a future date, and realise (hopefully) a significant profit for YOURSELF.
(By the way, I wasn't able to see when you find the time to fit in those private flying lessons :D )
Obviously you feel the return is in it for you, down the track, otherwise you wouldn't be volunteering your efforts - and needless to say, you don't plan on working that sort of lifestyle ad infinitum...only until either (a) the business is up and running, and you can then take a far more relaxed approach, or (b) you flog the business off!!

Although many of our tasks have become automated, colegate, that doesn't mean the workload has lessened.
Certainly the Flight Engineers are not necessary on modern aircraft, but that meant shifting THEIR areas of responsibility to the pilots, thereby INCREASING pilot workloads.

Your example of a Concorde pilot transitioning to a 777 doesn't carry too much weight (and highlights the fact that you are not a pilot, when you cite GPWS, and to a lesser degree, EFIS, as "examples" of skills being automated, as neither of those replaced any pilot "skills), as a 777 pilot transitioning to Concorde would experience LESS automation in areas, and thus an easier systems understanding.
Automation means one still needs knowledge of the BASIC workings of the systems, PLUS a knowledge of how the automatics work, and what they do when they malfunction.

In the case of malfunctioning automatics, most pilots will revert to BASICS (ie. disengage/disconnect auto-systems), to maintain control of the aircraft! :eek:
Thus a knowledge of BOTH systems is required.

Unlike a car, bus, or train, aircraft are NOT able to be pulled up, and parked, while we try to figure what went/is going WRONG....the aircraft continues hurtling through the air at 3/5/6/8 miles per minute!!:ooh:

So the job of pilot hasn't been "de-skilled" - quite the contrary, in fact.
Pilots today are far MORE multi-skilled than their counterparts of 20 and 50 years ago were.It is obvious that the job of the pilot is very different from what it used to be. But you cannot reverse that process. TOTALLY AGREE there.Finally it is worth remembering who pays the pilot. It is not the airline. It is the customer. They are voting with their wallets now very much in favour of a new order.Pilots' salaries represent about 1-2% of the price of a passenger's ticket for the LCC's, and 2-3% of a normal carrier's pax ticket!:eek:

[Wizofoz]

Pilots' salaries represent about 1-2% of the price of a passenger's ticket for the LCC's, and 2-3% of a normal carrier's pax ticket!

Err... You may want to rethink that one Kap. As the average fare for the LCC I work for is less than half that of a major, and you are saying I get paid a smaller percentage of that ticket, I would therefore be getting 1/3rd or 1/4 of what a pilot in the major makes.

In fact my salary is very similar to my equivalent in, say, BA or BMI (a little less certainly, and with fewer benefits), but actually represents a larger percentage of the over all yeild of the flight.

By the way, both my Australian and JAR licenses list my 737 rating as "737 300-900". (Endorsement is a uniquely Australian term and, as I take it redline works for easyJet, he would already be flying the NG)

[MD900 Explorer]

I have to say, that it has been an utter pleasure reading what you Plank Drivers have to say. Redlines comments and others to boot are a welcome refreshment from fellow rotorheads.

I felt i had to chip in here with a few words, just to lighten up the thread a little. Being HEMS pilot with 3500 hours, i can honestly say that i never fly high enough get malignant melanoma, and if the sun manages to squeeze itself past my flying hemet and Nomex flight suite, then the tan is much welcomed.

Apart from the normal hassel of medicals, LPC's and line checks, type ratings and the liike, flying a helicopter has to be one of the most fun things i have ever done as a profession. skimming over tree tops and getting all the attention, when landing on Regent Street, is definately a motivation factor. Also the best part of the job has to be the "saving lives" factor too.

But i have to say, you guys should not look so badly upon your own profession, as the grass is always greener, as they say. :E

Interesting thoughts you guys have.

Regards

MD 900 Explorer
(Thats 900 not 90) :ok:

[BYMONEK]

"Where is that cuppa tea i asked for 10 minutes ago.....does that galley girl realise i can't start the crossword without my Tea?And she hasn't even brought in the first class menu yet.I'm in the bunk in an hour from now....what's she doing out there for gods sake......working?"

[Ignition Override]

Wing Commander Danny: there doesn't seem to be a choice for those who prefer flying the shorter legs.

[Kaptin M]

A couple of long legs aren't so bad every so often, IO - it's what you do between them, though, that makes the difference :E

[scroggs]

cloud69 I tried running a business while maintaining a full-time job piloting longhaul aircraft. As you've found, the business sucks you in. I didn't get out in time, and lost my family.

Now I stick to flying, and give the spare time I have (which is more than most people) to my young children, who fortunately live not far from me.

I realised, as a result of the traumas of that period, that there are things in life much more important than what job you do and how much time you spend doing it. I continue to fly because it pays me fairly well, and I still enjoy going away, but most importantly because it gives me spare time that I can use with my kids. Changing careers would take away that advantage - and consign me to the same commercial rat race that my business did.

[V- 5]

Responsibility should equal reward.

F/O turbo operation 19K : Bin Man 19K ???????????????

When does the average Easy Jet/ Ryanair socialise?

He operates 6 Days 3 earlies then three lates often arriving Glasgow 3 times in one day with crosswinds at max limits dodging embeded CB's on a thunderous day. Shattered, in the cruise he wonders how he would cope if the worst occured at the worst possible moment. Working all the time and devoting his spare time to his family, he has not managed to give as much time to emergency procedures as he should.

Freight dog takes off into the night in his turbo prop, embedded CB,s along the route moderate icing slows the aircraft more and more, your over the mountains and your left engine is at max. Thats not good what if the right one fails!? Theres an awful static that you cant shut off an your getting bumped around so much that you cant read the instruments. You, too, are nackered and you ask yourself what would happen if the worst occured. Your company have just informed you that they have been granted permission to make you to fly 5 nights instead of 3-4:Great! You think of your family tucked up in bed and really wish you were there with them. You hope to get into the jets so you can get above the cloud. But hang on, it dont look that great in the jets either.

Flying isnt all sitting reading mags at 40K ft every few days you have crap weather that puts you to the test. A train driver does not have this. Landing an aircraft with electrics out and 35 mins of remaining batteries in foggy conditions with a howling crosswind should be something we should be prepared for every flight. If your nackered theres a good chance you will arse up and = dead.

I am less concerned about pay as time off. Airlines should max their daily sectors to 4 and do a whole week of earlies or a whole week of lates.

If you give crews good working conditions they will come to work refreshed and ready for anything, wanting more! as it used to be. Crews need time to study their books and this should either be rotad into their work or they should be given time of specifically for this purpose.

I ask the powers that be to consider this before its too late!:ugh:

[Quod Boy]

I fly long haul,4 engs,naturally,I love it,most of the time,but remember,to all those who want to do it,big or small planes:-

You are as good as your next landing.

Ive not slept properly,in last 4 days,from last ULH trip,and have had sim,since,plus a short turn around flt.

Fatigue,long term is a problem,but if youre up for its effects,on professional and private life,its still good.

Wise words from Kaptin M,and this weeks Flt Int,quotes Mr O'Leary of Ryannair,as "pilots being the most cossetted work group in society".

With attitudes like that,and new pilots selling themselves,for very little,very few quality employers left,it certainly is not the job it was 20 years ago.Thats a fact.

QB

[Commander]

I just hope that when I'll get into the left seat of a long-haul, I'll have a sat-linked laptop to check out PPRUNE's latest threads ;)

[Die By Wire]

I'm shorthaul with Big Airline plc BUT I'm 75% part time and it's fantastic!!!! I work 11 days amonth MAXIMUM. No nights out of bed and I actually look foward to going to work as a change to my normal homelife. My golf handicap is in single figures etc BUT work less = get paid less. I've a small house, old car but I'm extremely happy without the latest BMW or villa abroad or private education for the kids that some of collegues consider to be the bare essentials in life!

[BYMONEK]

FLY BY WIRE

iNTERESTING.......Some people out there may put their childrens education before lowering their handicap at 'The Golf Club' and when you say you work 75% part time ..max 11 days......sorry,lost on the maths.Still,sounds like a good deal and obviously suits your lifestyle and your happy,which seems a rarity these days.
p.s When did the kids grow up and fly the nest?

[Fred4000]

whinge whinge whinge. In sorry but there ain't no way its as bad a job as this thread makes out. NO way.

[thegoaf]

V-5. There are a lot of flying jobs that are very much tougher than anything you describe and they are very much enjoyed, partly because they are hard work and involve very special skills. Try flying out to an oil rig in a helicopter in the middle of a November gale to do a medevac. No comfy cockpit and you have to wear survival gear, as on every oil rig flight. Try crop spraying or fighting forest fires from a CL-215 where you lose around 20% of the gross weight of the aeroplane in around five seconds. It is all hand flying close to the ground in turbulent air with no external navigation facilities. I guess that no one has ever complained about that sort of work.

[RAT 5]

Goaf,

I think you mised the point. It's not the flying that's a pain, it's all the BS from management and the random shift patterns that are tiring. That plus the long hours in an anti-social enviroment. I too started in air taxi's, air shows and crop spraying. Great fun, a wonderful learning ground, but the laws of financial survival took over and I moved to the aluminium tube brigade.
What really is a pi@%er is that the established airlines demand from their recruits:
1. high education, often university,
2. good social and man/team management skills,
3. ability to think clearly and absorb data from various sources, process it and make a correct decision in a milli second.
4. good hand/feet eye coordination and a good medical condition,
5. the ability to sleep on demand and perform to the highest standard on minimum sleep.
6. show good potential to move up into management, (be a yes man ),
7. to accept being treated like a 'naughty little jonny', when you should just shut up and do your job even when you can forsee it is all going to be a can of worms, i.e. do not use any of the above qualities,
8. amidst all this maintain a high morale, strong company loyalty, a high attitude of company mindiness, forget you've been shafted more times than you can remember, and promote the same attitude in all new recruits you meet.

Apart from that flying's a fine profession. In the private executive jet world I experienced great resepct from the passengers.They employed me and flew with me and trusted me to deliver them safely to their destination. They were kind, courtious & appreciative. A world apart from airline managment where the crew, and FTL's, are part of the machine and a very irritating limiting factor in maximising the profit there from.

[Capt_Zoolander]

Airline pilot ain't what it used to be.

Back in the good old days, you would actually be respected by management as they understood that your skills made or broke the company. Today you are not worth the one cent in the dollar that your salary costs the "Punters" for their ticket

Nowadays, all the poor GA pilot's that have been screwed over for years are very happy to take your job. They have been conditioned to accept less than the "Dole" for their skills, as one day they may make it to "Airline Pilot"

They only think about today and not the future or how they will survive on a pension equivalent to the "Dole" when they retire.

Wake up and smell the Roses, have a look at who lives in the big houses, and drives the "Beamer", you will find that it's Airline management or your mates from high school who did apprenticeships in the building industry.

Good luck

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Crosswind Limits]

Fred4000, are you a commercial jet pilot? If not, then on what grounds do you base your ‘very firmly held’ views? I’m interested to know!!:hmm:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

V - 5
Airlines would love to schedule crews to a week of earlies or lates
(Ryanair do and you see more compliments than complaints on these patterns). However, CAP371 does not allow this to happen.

CAP371 has not stayed abreast with the industy and its Crews, its about 10 years behind the times. Crews dont mind working hard but any increased productivity should be traded against more time off.
The current norm is work crews harder and give you less time off. :\

[NOFUNAIR]

All my life I was dreaming and working on becoming a proff pilot. But from the days I got closer to aviation world, I realise how rotten it is, from the fellow pilots who despise you for making life harder, to management creating enormous obstacles for selection, It’s like you f***n must be born with enormous experience.
Don’t forget those how made it in old good days, it was a looooot easier for you, than for us standing at the doorsteps hated and despised from all sides:
You know, I'll try my chances little longer, if fail, well than f**k Ryanair’s and other like, I’ll save for Mig 25, and start my own drug delivering business.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL.
Thanks for encouraging posts.
:}

[thegoaf]

RAT 5. I did not mis the point. I was responding to a specific point V-5 made about things happening on the flight deck.

On the much wider points that you have made I have considerable sympathy. I am sure that you would agree that the aptitude testing of new entry aircrew is essential. It is not the entry standards that are the problem. It is waht happens after that. Working on the flight deck is one of the most disciplines working environments that can possibly exist. The whole purpose of the endless training and checking is to ensure absolute compliance with the approved operating procedures at all times. That is one reason why air transport has become such a safe form of transport.

But many of the aircrew that I know and have known have also felt that it is not an environment that helps their personal creativity. The more pressure is put on their rosters the more the frustration. I am sure that you will find numerous industrial psychologists that can explain this point much more clearly than I can.

Rather than engage in a theoretical debate about it what I will do is recount a story about the time some years ago when I was a manager responsible for aircrew. The company concerned was always under financial pressure. Every area of the company was under constant pressure to produce savings and efficiency improvements. It fell to me to find some large ones.

I found one that was very attractive. It would generate large savings for the company and it would settle a long standing grievance of the crews at the same time. It involved the introduction od a system of preference rostering. The preferences being declared by the crews themselves. I proposed to test it through a ninety day experimental period in wehich there would be no risks to the company or to the crews. But the rostering staff (working on paper at that time) were wholly opposed to it and created a ferocious backlash about their loss of control over their ability to determine the rosters of the crew.

I was forced to withdraw and was moved to a different job in the company. At that time the company did not get its savings and the crew remained dissatisfied.

Around 18 months later the idea was revived as a test bed for a new computerised rostering system then being evaluated. In a ninety day period all the ideas on which I had been working were fully proved and then introduced. The numbers on establishment were reduced by natural wastage and the crew satisfaction increased markedly.

What that told me is that there is always another way to the one that authoritarian crewing departments might want to use. After all their only role is to ensure that there are names to allocate to the flight.

In my many years in aviation I have learnt that the best rosters for an efficiency point of view and a staff satisfaction point of view whether air or ground crew are all based on a pattern of 5 days on followed by 3 days off. On the days on part the roster has to be similar for all 5 days. It has to be all earlies, all mid day shifts or all lates.

I strongly suspect that with the very early starts and very late finishes these days a pattern of 5 earlies, 3off, 5 mids, 3 off, 5 lates, 3 off would be both practical and popular. In aircrew terms it would certainly generate enough working hours and it would be stable.

What I strongly suspect is that the software generated in the rostering system has been created round cost alone. A few yeras ago I did some work with a very large airline in the fiels of artificial intelligence in developing rostering systems. It is hellishly complicated but what did emerge was that it is essential for the roster creators (usually lackeys on behalf of management) and the roster operators (crew) to share a common sense of purpose. Sounds difficult but it is not impossible. Crews do want to work but they do not want to be pushed around. Nor should they. Equally managements do need crews who have beileve that the company cares for them. ALL THE BEST COMPANIES IN THE WORLD CARE FOR THEIR STAFF.

I hope this helps to push the debate along.

[RAT 5]

T.Goaf.

Sorry about that; no darts intended.

You make some good points, but; always there are buts:

I disagree with 5/3. There is a great desire within ej to adopt the 5/3 system from RYR in preference to their own 6/3(7/2). I can tell them that this is no sun-blessed ideal. The 5/3 boys say that after day 4 you are tired; after day 5 your are knackered. They know it from the inside. It is just that the ej roster is so Sh@#%y that anything semingly better will do. Fallecy.

The ground staff shift workers 4 & 4. 2 earlies 2 lates 4 days off. I have long advoacted that this system will produce the productivity required of flight crew without the social distress and tiredness of traditional rosters. 5/3 is not suitable for european short haul. What is happening at the moment is papering over the cracks and tinkering with things. A total radical re-think is required.

By the way; I have a friend in a major carrier where there is a computer based bid line system. This allows you to bid what you wish; not a line but type of duties: i.e. weekends, lates earlies, long haul, short haul, night stops, intercontinental etc. As long as your bid includes 75 flight hours credit it will be considered. The computer sorts it out with no guarantees. It seems very succesful and the crews are generally happy. there is no favouritism, the company achieves it's budget and the crews resepct the system and have high morale. Sounds good to me, but when suggested to UK short haul airlines it was rejected out of hand. They had no understanding of Larks & Owls, or those with children or not etc etc.
Closed minds make for sad people and even worse employers.

[thegoaf]

RAT 5. There are always buts in everything. 4 on 4 off is a very social roster and always popular with those who can get on to it. But it can be very expensive for the company. To find out whether it can work you have to overlay it against the actual workload requirement. It starts to fall down if there are daily differences or differences across the day. For example Gatwick has a huge long haul arrivals and departure peak in the morning. If you overlay a 4 on 4 off roster against that you get inefficiencies. So what you do is overlap it with a 5/3 or with part-time staff.

The sysytem with which I got entangled was based on staff declaring preferences. The fear was that some staff would not want to work what were thought to be unpopular routes. In practice it was easy to meet all preferences. There are plenty of people who want to work weekends, for example. There are others who do not funcrtiom well at the end of the day but are very happy with early starts.

What I would say needs to happen is to create a shared objective along the lines rovemnets etc. with open minds. No time limit to discussuions.""Of course the pilots want to see the company doing well. But the pilots want a working environment that enables them to work at their best and have a civilised life. Conflicts serve no good so let us talk about changes, experiments, improvemnets etc."

I fully recognise that open minds can be hard to achieve but when you do get to that state it can be very rewarding. But it can never be done against the clock.

[R E Darse]

Great Poll.

I have to say that it must still be highly desirable. The simple laws of economics of supply and demand back this up.

The world always seemed a better place when one was younger, but is it or have the gripes that come free with old age quietly crept in? Terms and conditions seem to erode, allowances seem to erode and it pay seems to erode, but that’s not restricted to aviation. When you think of all the other jobs one could be doing with the qualifications needed to be an airline pilot (a couple of A levels maybe and some hard work to regurgitate info in multi-guess form) - the pay and terms and conditions don't seem all that bad.

One thing to remember though. Passing experience is one thing, but one should never influence the ambitions and dreams of so many. Anyone who wants to be an Airline pilot should get help and support from the team he / she is trying to join.

I have family and friends in the business and they all say that if you are prepared to work hard - it's a wonderful life. Isn't that the same for any job?:ok:

[V- 5]

If pilots are tired before the end of their working week then the current rotas are puting lives at risk! Simple as that.

Who will want to fly Easy/ Ryanair when one ploughs in to the deck because PF takes a micro sleep on final approach?

[Jack The Lad]

'Bollocks' is the only word I can think for such a stupid remark V-5!

Your responsibilities as a professional crew member deny you the 'right' to micro sleep on final approach.

Don't blame Easy or Ryanair, blame yourself! Either you are up to it or you are not. Can't hack it? Get a job driving taxis...far worse, or don't accept the roster if you genuinely believe you are not up to it.

Doh!

[RAT 5]

JTL.

A fine sentiment, but usually unrealistic. To refuse a roster, as I have done on various occaisions, you need a strong position and character. It is not uncommon, when telling crewing that you will not perform a dutyfor physilogical reasons, to be confronted with he direct question, "are you refusing to work/fly/the duty?" This will then go on your record. It takes a brave one to say yes.

Goaf,

A not surprising result, and highly desirable. When crews can work when they want and still produce what the company wants, that sounds like a WIN WIN. There will always be compromises, but in general everyone is happy. With computer systems, should management wish to tear themselves away from the pencil and rubber era and open up their minds to the new world, it should be possible. Of course the dinasours in rostering do not want to relinquish control. They enjoy pulling strings and watching you dance. I've heard off, but not yet experienced, an airline where there was a friendly and respectful relationship bewteen crews and rostering/crewcontrol. It was even worse for cabin crew. Of 10 airlines, 6 had senior MD's with an abject hatred of pilots. As bad attitudes drift downwards the whole area was infected with poison.

All this talk of fixed patterns, i.e. 6/3, 5/3 or whatever, is still because rostering want some control. 5 days of constant work with a changing sleep pattern will cause tiredness and reduce the quality of the 3 days off to probably 1 day & recuperation. It also leads to the problem that the roster is fixed weeks in advance and if you need a day off for something special which crops up in the middle of your 5 days, then you are stuffed. Give crewing 5 day blocks and they will own you body & soul for 24 hours a day. It has happened yet been denied. Within those 5 days they can do what they like with you at short notice. Any free time can be destroyed by changes. With such a system there need to be many built in safe-guards, but that will mean crewing losing control and they will not agree.

Another problem with such fixed patterns is they might work woth one type of operation but not with another. Crewing may want 6/3 rigidity but demand flixibility as well. I worked for a european s/h charter airline with a 4/3 system. It never worked because you would always have had the same days on/off. (SOmehow it seemed that every weekend was on, though). They then started L/H and tried to use the same system. Total chaos. They tried to say days down route were 3 OFF. There was massive reluctance to devise a preference system. No one has ever sat down with the crews and tried to work out a WIN WIN system, as you seem to suggest is needed. What are they so afraid of. Of all the departemnts with in airline, I IMHO the pilots are the ones with the greatest interest and desire for the company to succeeed and prosper, thereby giving them a longterm career. Somehow there is a feeling upstairs, that the pilots want to milk the cow. What a total travesty of the truth and so typically hypocritical. No airline has gone under due to crew demands. Butr that is another topic.

Back to rostering patterns; there neees to be some mutual repsect for each others needs, but to need a holiday day to guarantee a dental appointment is the ludicrous depth to which it gets. Try telling that to an office whalla. They just come or go late/early.

Hey hey. Off to enjoy my 30 hours off. 0000 - 0600.

[V- 5]

JTL : Your responsibilities as a professional crew member deny you the 'right' to micro sleep on final approach.

Are you for real my friend?

No matter how hard you think you are, if you are tired there is a chance you will micro sleep. This had been confidentially reported within the company I used to work for. A crew had reason to think that they had both gone to sleep on final approach!!!

It's all very well being a brave soul but you are responsible for a large number of people. Your above comment does not suggest a very responsible view on this subject.

Check out the latest issue of Flight International, a Fed Ex jet descended below the glide leaving the crew seriously injured. The cause of the accident was largely attributed to crew fatigue.

[loaded1]

JTL:

I dont think you are a "professional pilot" at all, just a wind-up merchant, with motives that one can only guess at.

If you were, you'd know the insidious nature of fatigue and that, by definition, fatigue, as opposed to mere tiredness, is not something over which one has conscious control.

If you could control your response to it, it wouldn't be fatigue.

I am sorry, but I dont think you know what you are talking about.

Fatigue is such a serious issue in airline rostering right now that it deserves the greatest concern. Recent proposals for a European-wide rostering regime by an MEP, (who has now lost his seat), Mr. Simpson, confirm this.

These were not based on ANY objective science at all and represented a substantial degradation on the UK's existing CAP371, itself prone to abuse as recent alterations to it by the CAA confirm.

It is a matter of deep concern that a substantial operator from the UK is able to flout even this document and its protections against multiple early starts by virtue of being a company incorporated somewhere else, (Ireland).

JTL, your assertion that individuals should stand up and defy their employing corporation proves to me the dubious nature of your post. You just are not living in the real world to say this. The only safe response from an employee is a collective one and I urge everyone to be involved to achieve rostering criteria that, as a basic minimum, are based on objective scientific criteria for the prevention of fatigue.

Fatigue is a killer, and every seasoned professional pilot knows it.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

RAT 5
I know of no Airline Staff that do 4 on 4 off, especially early and late mixes. I know plenty who do 2 days and 2 nights (12 hours)
then 3 off, and quiet a few who do lates /early combinations of 8 hrs then 2 days off.
Cant see a problem with crews doing 5 and 3, you might be tired on day 5 but so am i after 14 days with only 1 day free. and many of you are paid to work on days off. There's a major difference to being tired and fatigued :\

[RAT 5]

Mr. Angry,

A pleasure to hear from you again on this subject. It was a couple of years ago, when threads about pilot workload and its affects first brought us together.

In answer to you saying that you know of no pilots who do 4 On 4 Off. and therefore imply it is impossible. Why not? Its not having been done before does not make it a bad idea. All I'm saying is that it is very common for shift workers, including those on the ground within airlines, and does not seem to cause the knackering effects of a normal aircrew roster. (I stand to be corrected).

Nobody should be tired (and never fatigued) on a regular basis when doing a normal job, especially one where a lapse of concentration can have calamitous consequences. Of course there is a difference between tiredness & fatigue, but it should not be the norm. This is the 21st century and the EU workers directives have improved things for most workers, execpt in public transport. I sympathise that you are tired with 1 day off in 14. I would be too, and it is not reasonable that you should work so, but it is irrelevent to the discussion. It smacks of the old worn out response from the senior pilots when young F/O's winged about this or that; "Don't worry son. Just put up with it and your time will come. I did it, so you have to."

Just because one person in the team has a rough time of it, is not a reason not to allow improvements in another link in the chain. By raising standards in one area it should help lift standards in all others. Level up not not down!

[CAT1]

For me , the main cause of fatigue is boredom. There's so little to do, and so much time to do it, that I find it difficul to motivate myself after ten hours staring out the window. There's only so much you can talk about with someone that you'd probably never see outside the job, and the papers only take an hour or so to read. Bring on in-flight entertainment for flight crews.....though I've seen some interesting stuff on the cameras...

[Kaptin M]

Rostering (and PAY...or lack thereof) is probably the main bane of aircrew...........Tech. and Cabin.
But WHY??

I believe that "rostering" or "crew scheduling" is seen as a menial chore, by an upper echelon who have litle - or NO - understanding of the PHYSIOLOGICAL effects of working at altitude. nor of the PHYSCHOLOGICAL effects of not sleeping in the SAME abode each night.

As adaptive as humans are, our bodies are simply not PHYSICALLY CAPABLE of working at reduced O2 levels, or prolonged periods on demand!
But THIS is what is required of aircrew!

And hence the reason WHY not EVERYBODY can pass an aircrew P.E.!!
Pax subject themselves to this "denial" when they FEEL like it..or as neccessitated by Company demands.
But in the relatively benign surrounds afforded you (the travelling passenger) by sit-down, lay-back & relax, "wait to be waited upon" atmosphere, the hours that the aircraft crew work seem relatively p!ss easy - perhaps MORE especially so because YOU are relaxed, and away from your usual work environment!

But feeling the NEED to be assured that you are SAFE, in this new & strange environment, you mistake the relaxed, confident, professionalism of the crew as an indication that travelling on an aeroplane at (say) 35,000' ( about 7 MILES..or 12 kilometres ABOVE the Earth) and around 500 miles per hour..or 800 kph....is as safe as jumping on a council 'bus!

Well, WE wish it was as well!!!

But the plain and simple truth is - it IS NOT.:uhoh:
But flying has now become so "routine", that most of us accept it as just another form of transportation.

....Until one ploughs in.
Unfortunately, an occurencce that will INcrease.
So, to be sure that YOU aren't one of the VICTIMS, choose your airline carefully!!:8

[skyslut]

Well it is always amaizing how fast we forget why we are in this job. It is not for the money, not for the wild sex parties, not for the glamer. We do this because we love to fly airplanes. Yes it is more like computer programer now and we are locked in the cockpit. It is still a great job and I love going to work. Yes it helps making 200,000. I love the challange ever day to fly better than I did the day before, To make a better landing, To give the passengers a smother flight. Yes it has changed a lot but it is still the most fun I could have with my pants on and I hope I am able to continue flying for many years to come

[Ignition Override]

1) Anyone claiming to be a pilot, who has not become quite fatigued after a long duty day/night, has never been a professional civilian or military pilot.

2) Have the British/Irish CAA ever listed fatigue as the primary cause of an accident?

3) The (US) NTSB finally admitted that major flightcrew fatigue was the primary factor after a charter DC-8 crew nearly died after a night duty period, resulting in a horrifying cartwheel crash, which had followed a day with not much sleep. The approach at NAS Guantanamo Cuba is reportedly quite demanding. There is no doubt that the Safety Board had trouble with the FAA regulators living with the (for decades) long-overdue findings.


Many Ppuners have solid experience in aviation-others feel that academic knowledge of various subjects, or a wannabe attitude is just as valid! :8 We know b***s**t when we see it. One of our FOs has a father-in-law who teaches academia at a famous US aviation college. He is also allegedly a knw-it-all who has no experience with the fast-changing situational awareness needed for practical applications, i.e. operational flying in multi-turbine "cross-country" conditions. :confused:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

RAT5
I would love to roster a Pilot 4 earlies or 4 lates or 4 nights then 3-4 days off but CAP371 stands in the way of me doing so. If you get rid of the early / late rules then ANYTHING is possible.
In general most Pilots would be up for this as well. I can only hope that either the new EU FTL or a shift in policy from the CAA
will see us in agreement...

(and its 4 on 3 off for shift workers unless you think finishing at 0700 is an off day!)

And i'mnot so angry these days either!
:\

[RAT 5]

A of P.

What a pleasure, again.

One solution is to register your company in Ireland, and that removes the 3 consecutive early/late problem. (tongue in cheek)

However, what I have also been suggesting is a 2 early, 2 late 4 days off suggestion. Under CAP371, in paticular, this would allow the required 2 days off, give rostering quite a bit of flexibility with the start & finish times, and, if the roster operates to plan, give the crews some decent quality time off having produced the required amount of grind during the 4 days of shifts.

I just think that the whole process needs a radical re-think. This idea that a few cosmetic changes will produce an ideal solution is nonsense. The idea that one set of rules can work for long/short schedule/charter, major/lowcost is rubbish. There need to be some limits, as we have seen in the past the unscrupulous operators have very feudal & medieval attitudes. But, big but, the best guideline is common sense, mutual concensious between crews and management, and some degree of personal choice. This will work but does not seem to exist.
The one group of workers who have the best long term interest in the success of the airline are the pilots. No doubt. They do not want to change jobs every few years. They want to stay with a good employer and play with their toys. P@#s them off and they will leave. That serves nobody's interest; and yet they are seldom listened to without a fight. Daft! They are often the best source of that allusive common sense we all seek, and it's free. I just wish someone would give it a try.

Amazingly everyone quotes South West as the model to follow. Sadly, all they copy is the financial and ticketing structure. It is frequently voted one of the best US companies to work for, by the empoyees. They work hard and are well rewarded, both in income and time off. For some unknown reason all the eurpoean copy cats only cheery pick the greedy financial bits they think will line their pockets, and forget about the rest of the foundational model. Bit like England picking 11 players and expecting them to paly like Brazil. There's more to it that that.

[Big Tudor]

Rat5

Don't think your solution would go down well with the bean counters. Under your proposal it is 6 days on 4 days off. Nearly all of our wave 1 departures involve a duty start before 0600 local so you've got a blank day before your run of duties. All of our wave 2 / 3 flights are getting back after midnight so you've got another blank day before going into days off.

Rostering are too often faced with impossible scheduling combinations. Your opinions on the following please

Mon = Day off
Tue = 0600 report LGW-LPA-LGW off duty 1810
Wed = Min rest finishes at 0620 local. 2 flights too chose from, 0600 LGW-TFS or 1755 LGW-ACE.

The TFS cannot be rostered as it is a breach of min rest. The MAH is into the 18-30 hrs rest period which should be 'avoided'. So the question is, what do we give our man on Wed?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

RAT 5

The pleasure is mine also.

Yes, register in Ireland would be nice, are we in agreement that the early / late rules cause the problem?. How about 4 earlies, or 4 lates or 4 nights like the rest of Europe...

As Big T says how do you work an early when it starts b4 0600 and wot about a late that ends after midnight?. Do you want a rest day, two earlies, 2 lates, a rest day followed by 4 off?.


Or 2 days off instead of the 4 to cover the 2 rest days, but then sneaky airlines would turn those rest days into flying or sby.

THINK the bean counters would need a few more crews

:\

[Banzai Eagle]

Rat 5

Pilots most loyal working group. Um, i must admit i always thought quiet a few were "mercenaries".

:{

[deathcruzer]

Want to trawl through more of this.... go to the wannabies forum and search for the "do you really want to do this " post by deathcruzer:ok:

[SHIMMY]

Yep I agree with the modelling on Southwest bit
I was given a paper last year from a student from Harvard who had written an article about the success of Southwest
It makes very interesting reading and bears no resemblance to our LCCs over here except on the financial side
On the personnel side we are worlds apart and I don't know of any LCC in Europe where troops are motivated, passionate and commited to their Company - and that is a huge element and management seem to be totally oblivious to it (except a Going somewhere airline that became orange unfortunately):O

[SHIMMY]

Having mulled over this question many a time I think it all depends on our unique experiences and who we work for

Me - well I wouldn't do it again if I could turn the clock back - the job has changed so much and is not what I aspired to when I started training - glorified bus driver in a cell for 10 hours

My husband - would do it again and loves it - but very different company who treat everyone respectfully with top notch benefits and excellent lifestyle

It is all in the luck of the draw but certainly I couldn't recruit people into the industry anymore and rave about it - the actual job is good but all the other bull**** drags it down too much:*

[RAT 5]

Mr. A of P. & Big T.

Your responses are noted, and I understand the problems. The basis of what I'm saying is that the whole matter of FTL's needs a total new re-think. Start with a clean sheet of paper. Tinkering with the present system, and making cosmetic and minor changes, will not achieve the desired solution for anyone.

There need to be basic rules, based on social attitude and common sense. Each operator has a unique set of circumstances. In the past the major schedule carriers, short-haul, didn't takeoff before 0730, and didn't land much after 22.00. Now, with LCA's trying to squeeze extra sectors into each day, they start earlier and finish later. This infringes the early start/late finish rules and the Days Off regulations. This causes rosters problems with efficiency and I'm sure does not help the crew, as the limits become targets and the 'Spirit' is no where to be seen. But, remember the earl/late issue is unique to UK.

Management will always exploit the rules to maximise productivity, and to write one set of rules to cover all the operations is impossible.

I would have thought that a simple set of rules that covers maximum length of day/night duty; maximim hours in a 7 day period & month, minimum rest between duties and minimum total rest in blocks of days; allowance for time changes; is not beyond the wit of man. It applies in most other jobs.
Within these boundaries a roster buffer of X% is built in to allow for delays. i.e. you roster to 80% of the max rather than extend the max with discretion.

After that, why can not the managment sit down with the crews and devise a mutually agreed set of human rules best suited to their own operation. Operations change with routes, a/c and expansion. The company FTL's need to be flexible. (I once flew for a short-haul charter airline who had a template in their roster. They then flew long-haul charter and tried to use the same template. Daft. The only way it worked was to consider days down route in the Days Off calculation.)The crews have a longterm interest in the profitability and survival of their airline. They are intelligent to understand the concept of productivity, and after all, do like flying. They will not have anything to gain by demanding more than the airline can afford. If they want more, they are often the best people to suggest ways to expand the pie so as to get a bigger slice. Sadly, this never happens. I have never heard of an honestly rewarded suggestion scheme in any LCA. Surely these young airlines have a wealth of untapped experience in the ranks. There are so many ideas out there about how to improve finances in so many areas, and have a better life style at the same time. Sadly there is great mistrust of pilots' suggestions on money savings. Thus there are no suggestion schemes, unlike so many other industries.

If honest discussions were held, with open minds, the productivity - lifestyle issue would take a couple of days to sort out. It ain't rocket science. It's the beligerence of management that turns it into a totally unnecessary battle. Such a waste of energy and creator of low morale.

However, there needs to be the afor mentioned common sense criteria. Unfortunately, as the working time of most other workers has reduced/improved, the engineers have designed a/c which fly longer. The bean counters want, and have already achieved in some instances, an expansion of duty times to match the a/c performance. Note the EU proposals for JAA FTL's. The B.C.'s say "what is the point of having a 16 hour aeroplane flown by crews who can work only 14 hours?" Bunks laddie. (And, why should anyone work a double shift with no compensation in time off, as is the case for crews.) The passengers are seduced on board with bunks. It is deemed necessary for them, but not the people responsible for their safety. The most dangerous part of the flight is being perfomed by crews at their lowest ebb. Seems daft to me.

Even worse are the operators that buy an 7 hour a/c and then roster an out & back.

I see the need for equal rules. The pax want to know they are equally safe on all airlines. In Italy, long-haul charter, I used to work 5 hours longer on the outbound, and 8 hours longer on the return leg, than allowed under CAP371. That difference in FTL's, which have medical input, can not be right. (and it allows the unscrupulous to rent in an Italian a/c to fly a trip in another more restrictiver country. Not supposed to happen, but I've done it!)

Anyway, it still seems, after 12 years now, that the ECA, or who ever, the politicians, bean counters and CAA's, are no closer to a solution. Perhaps we should call in Jimmy Carter. Perhaps we should lock them up in a room, (or get them airborne until the fuel runs out,) and only let them out when they have a verdict. Something needs to be a catalyst and focus the mind. It's likely to get worse before better, and all this feet dragging does nobody any good.



I still don't understand why the Health & Safety at Work executive is not involved in any of this. They are sticking their noses into everyone else's work patterns, why not ours?

[Danny]

For those of you wondering what it was like (and still is in some quarters) in the 'job' then I highly recommend you read 'Defining Moment. A pilots story' by Robin Rackham. The autobiography takes you through the trials and tribulations of achieving the dream that so many wannabes have and the eventual realities of what flying for the smaller independent operators is really like.

The book is published by:

Lartington Music & Media,
Lartington Hall
Lartington
Barnard Castle
Co. Durham
DL12 9BW
UK

ISBN 0-9542780-0-3

I believe that the book can be ordered from the above address for £9.00 plus £1.70 p&p.

I found the book was engaging and entertaining. Robin Rackhams style of writing makes comfortable reading, especially for those who may not have the same insight into the job as those of us who are already there. Apart from a few glaring typo's and formatting errors, which should really have been spotted before going to the printer, the quality is high.

I cringed at a few of the situations Robin described and felt a bit let down by his description of how he handled some of the situations he found himself in but a quick reminder that most of what was being described was from the an era before CRM was the holy grail it has become today. Having read some of his informative articles that were published in 'The Log', the Balpa magazine, after a medical problem it was no surprise that the style of writing in the book was just as fluid and interesting.

Definitely a book worth reading for anyone who has a love of flying and an interest in what it is like working for the small and large independent airlines.

[slam_dunk]

:ok: I still enjoy (almost) every minute on the job.

747-400 co pilot for 13 years, major arline.


Pro's :
-every day new collegues
-going to lots of nice places, seeing all continents/major cities
-lots of sunshine/bars/fun/excursions.
-good salery
-early retirement ( for the time beeing)

Con's:
-jetlag :(
-beeing away from home when your family needs you to be home
-tough/expensive to get into the seat/become an airline pilot.
(I was lucky to get into the pilot seat by military employment, so scip the expensive part):p

[Notso Fantastic]

Research the Medical Forum- or is that already you there?

[Big Tudor]

Rat 5

I hea what you're saying, and to a large degree agree with your points. The problem comes when you try and balance the working patterns of homo sapiens. Striking a balance between earlies and lates is a near impossible task when you consider the differences between people. Some on this thread have said that they would prefer to do earlies, some prefer lates. Trying to write a legally enforcable document that catered for a host of individuals preferences would keep Bodgitt Leggit & Scarper, Barristers-At-Law, in business for many, many years.
I've worked for airlines that tried to introduce preferential rostering around earlies and lates and it was not easy. We found that, after a period of approx 3 months, most of the crews were unhappy about their patterns and reported they felt more likely to suffer from fatigue, although nobody actually reported they were fatigued.
The fundamental problem with crew scheduling at the moment boils down to airport capacities, IMHO. More and more flights are being scheduled at 0500-0700 local because of runway slot availability (or lack of). Because of this, the first duty in a series immediately triggers a limitation factor, either start time after days off or early starts. Once that limitation has been triggered it doesn't take long before the limits are reached and the roster flow suffers as a result.

[Juan To Go]

I was lucky enough to join BOAC in the 60s when it was still a nationalised corporation. Even then, the senior captains were telling me that the job was crap compared to what it used to be. I guess every generation will say that.

Having retired, I now train young pilots coming into the profession. They are all desperately keen and pay a lot of money for their training so I can only deduce that it must still be very desirable.

[RAT 5]

B.T.

Good to hear from you. I can understand your problems, but:

These problems only occur when trying to maximise crew duties in the short term. Just because crews are allowed to work 7 days continous, why should they? Just becasue crews can work 55 hours in a week, why should they? This talk of earlies and lates causing problems. There is not problem if 3 earlies are followed by 2 days off; god knows you need them. The same with lates. And this only applies to those carriers with those kind of schedules and based in UK.

I've worked for too many airlines that start a roster with 8 days off/28 and then fill in the blanks with duty. From a previous thread I restate that an efficient working day flying is 6 hours airborne. (short-haul). This equates to 150 days per year. Add 30 SBYs, or 3 per working duty month and your year is full. With this maximum level of productivity there is no problem constructing a social roster. If airlines work you to the max for 8 months then you do very little for the next 3, assuming 1 on leave. Daft. Why not keep a good steady untiring roster all year round, instead of running out of pilots during the last couple of months? Sounds a WIN WIN to me. It gets rid of the early/lates, long/short, time chance problems. It only needs a clean sheet of paper and a different attitude from the bean counters. The limits are there to get you out of the inevitable pooh! not to be used every day. By using them every day, that is what causes the problem and why the B.C's are trying to get them extended. The FTL's are being used in the wrong manner and are seen as a hinderance not a help.

The B'C's do not want crews to work only what they see as 50% of the year. Well, in Eurpoean charter the average flying day was 7.5 hours. That's 120 days airborne pa. In intercontinental the average flight is 10 hours, that's only 90 days airborne.

I don't hear the same kind of squealling from those operators. They live with it an charge accordingly. The topic is far too complicated to find a solution here in a few posts. What seems to be missing is the will to really try and find a solution. Cosmetically fiddling with CAP 371 to find a JAA scheme will not work. There are better schemes out ther. I worked long-haul under the Scandinavian FTL system. It was the best I've been under. No doubt there will be dissenters, but there is more to FTl's than 371.

[kishna]

Reading through some of this thread with interest, I'm curious to know how many pilots who are disillusioned by their lot to would look for alternative employment. In the Majors it's fairly easy to move to a slightly different capacity - ie management, training etc. But in the LCC's these places are relatively few and far between.
Over the years I have spoken to many people who have given it all up and to quote some "halved my salary but doubled my quality of life"! Isn't that what it's all about? we earn our money to give us a quality of life, but if work really does become a grinding chore, than surely (for the sake of our sanity) we should do something about it.

[TCASTED]

Unless you are with one of the majors, e.g. UA, AA, BA, CX etc., the job of an airline pilot is one step above being a prostitute!
I am so sick and tired of working for scumbag airlines I am going back to college to finish my law degree. When I have it, I will place ads in all of the aviation publications to represent pilots who have also been abused by these scumbag operators/crooks.
There will be no mercy for these slime......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not a threat, FACT

[deathcruzer]

Good for you …good luck with the studies……:ok:

[paddygee]

Heavens, by the sound of it how lucky am I. I have been fortunate with the house price boom to have some pennies behind me, which I was considering using to pay for my licences.
I am so pleased I haven't, although I have spent some on a few bits and pieces to enjoy my life with.
Which is the major point. Life is to enjoy and be happy, not worry about having a wad of debt over your head, and then be handcuffed by an employer paying not so much, when they know you cannot afford to do anything else but work to their poor conditions (this is all based on what I have read on the pprune).

[fireflybob]

My belief is that if you go for quality of life first then standard of living will follow - it doesn't work the other way round.

Having done the airline pilot job in a number of differing roles I can say that I am glad I have done it but there are some things I do not miss about the job such as irregular working hours, long duty periods and incompetent management. I do, however, miss the money!

However there is one thing worse than a bad job and that it no job at all - count your blessings!

[lyuba]

How about getting $1,500 a month? that is, if you are lucky and work for the flag carrier on international routes.

How about working extra hours over the allowed monthly limit of 75 hours?

How about getting less than prescribed time for rest between flights and then falling asleep in a car on the way home amid traffic going at 90km/h?

Or better still, one pilot died before boarding a 767 from Hong Kong earlier this year.

[Barzha]

The best job in the world for people like me . I have as much fun as I possibly can . I fly visual as much as I can . I am a pilot not just for money , pension et c ... Seeing Alps almost every day - you can't get used to it . It is still beautiful after so many years ... :D :D :D

[MacGriffyn]

I flew military for almost a decade...it wasn't an F-16 or any type of fast, sexy fighter. Every plane I flew was big, slow, heavy, and ugly. I flew tired, sick, hungry, and shot up. Long hours...try flying Washington to Macedonia with one crew. I carried supplies, explosives, ammunition, food, fuel, armoured personnel carriers, artillery, tanks, paratroopers, and anything else that the loadmaster could strap down. I also was falling asleep driving to my house in Western Germany travelling at 130 km/h. I only got U.S. captain's pay, which isn't much. And I loved it.

And anytime I started to feel sorry for myself, I just thought about some of the guys that I went to college with that were serving in the infantry, the artillery, the MP's, or any number of hundreds of jobs where they were on the ground in the deserts, the mountains, the snow, in Africa, the Balkans, Saudi Arabia, Iraq...with crap flying at them. At least I could fly away.

Now I'm civilian and I'm just getting into the big show. I suppose that I don't mind the shuffling of schedules, I'll move if they want...hell, I moved 4 times in 10 years for the AF. I love to watch the sun go down at altitude. I like to take off in the desert and land in the snow. There's still nothing for me like shoving the throttles forward, hearing the roar, and getting to it.

Besides, there's not a whole lot of ground fire coming at me anymore, there's no tactical ingress or egress, and the flight attendants are much nicer and better looking than my old crew chief. Even the food is better. (Of course, anything is better than an MRE thrown at me by a mean, ugly Tech Sgt.)

I suppose that it's all on the perspective of the pilot. In another ten years, maybe my thoughts and feelings will change. But for me, right now, I still get to look at the guys that I went to college with and see them in their offices, at their desks, in their cubes...all staring at the computers and wondering what sunlight is like. And I get to shove the throttles forward and fly away.

Yeah, the industry may be scum, and the "old pilots" are telling me how bad it is now. I'll just nod understandingly, smile, and walk out to whatever plane they want me to fly. I'll do my job that millions of people would kill to do. I'll sit in whatever seat I'm in and when those throttles go forward and that roar starts, I'll smile and love it.

Hey, man...It beats getting shot at. :}

[mmmbop]

This thread merely proves the age-old adage -
'life's what you make it'

Jump in the seat grumbling about management, LCCs, being awake for hours when you want to be asleep, missing the wife/kids/family, perceived low pay, reduced conditions etc etc etc and the job is going to suck.

Jump in the seat thinking I'm going to have a chat with a great guy/girl in the seat next to me or see something cool from up here.......well then......

I've worked in the military(non-flying), corporate and other worlds, and this is by far the most satisfying career I have had.

Despite what many say - the pay in airlines IS good. Too many haven't seen the life of Mr/Mrs Joe average - heck even Mr/Mrs Joe above average.

Life is what you make it.......enjoy what you have, and not what you think you deserve!

[Idunno]

mmmbop,

Lifes what you make it, yes of course.

But surely the point then is why were you less happy in the other jobs you had?

It seems to infer that there is more to your enjoyment of a job than what you can simply make of it...

Deep...aren't I....:}

[Ignition Override]

MacGryffin and MMMBop have unique perspectives that I had forgotten about, among others. Interesting, and if any of us could know that we would not be around (in this life) very long, we might enjoy it more.

The long term is probably the main concern for so many here in the US. If we could count on most of our retirement being a strong possibility, then many changes in the short to mid-term would be much easier to adapt to.

[Droopystop]

Before I even started in this buisness, I heard the expression "Bums on Seats". I didn't at first really believe it, but now I do. Boy am I glad I went rotary.

From the posts in this thread and a similar ones in the Wannabee:

In theory, it is possible to go from 0 hrs to fATPL, IR, MCC, 737 type rating in a little over a year. This compares with 4 - 5 years for teachers, accountants, lawyers, engineers and MBAs (even longer for docotrs, vets, architects). Therefore "professional managers" (as opposed to promoted pilots) view pilots as poorly qualified. After all, all they want is a competent "bum on seat". They do not care how good you are. As long as you manage to keep by the ops manual and pass the LPCs and OPCs, that is all they require.

Is it any wonder that Terms and conditions are eroded and pay deals have to be done via a trade union? Pilots have no leverage anymore. You cannot threaten to leave because you cannot be guarenteed to get another job at the same salary.

Aviation is great if you simply want to fly. The moment you start to get involved in company politics it all starts to get you down.

I love flying and wouldn't change it for anything. I had far more control over my last career but suffered more stress and less time off than I do now. I also used to earn far more than I do now.

Life is certainly what you make it.

[fescalised portion]

Well........Here's my take on the topic.

I have been involved in this industry since I left school 16 years ago [half of my lifetime]. I did a 4 yr apprenticeship in A/C maintenance and am now a licenced technician for a large carrier.
I have always wanted to fly the friggers instead of being looked at as a second-class human being, by Nigel every time he steps out of his farty-smelling sharp end coccoon at the end of a flight with a log book full of cabin BS!

Well, I have to say that I couldn't give a :mad: about low morale amongst a few of the ungrateful posters on this thread. How would you like it if you had to spend all day waiting around an airport for miserable sods like yourself to arrive, with a log book full of blocked lavs and puked-over seat covers????? I don't think that you realise how lucky you are to have a career like you do.... So many people would give their left arm to swap jobs with you!

Well, I personally have had enough of the cr4p that I do, and I want to be in your shoes, sitting at the front end being respected by everybody sitting behind you.........So I have secured a large chunk of unpaid time off of work to begin training to "Fly the friggers" like you do this September. I know that the industry has it's recruitment problems at the moment, and that the future isn't too bright at present, but I have a profession to fall back on, even if it is talking to manic depressives like yourselve's [You know who you are!].

I'm prepared to give it a go........You only live once, Right?

Chin-Up and be grateful!!!!!!!!

[maxy101]

fescalised portion You´re going to have a hard time of it if you wear that chip on your shoulder when you have to work with us "manic depressives" It will be interesting talking to you 5 years down the line....

[exeng]

Like you I have been involved in the industry since I left school in the late sixties. I was very fortunate to complete a four year aircraft technician apprenticeship and became an LAE (B707) with a large (at the time) carrier.

I did occasionally feel like I was looked apon as a second class citizen by the operating crew, but the majority of time I was treated with respect.

I didn't particularly enjoy working on a blocked lav, but I did enjoy working in a team trying to solve the odd difficult snag.

I was lucky in being given the opportunity to retrain (at no personal financial cost) and have for decades added to the aroma of that cocoon after a long flight.

Don't imagine for one moment however that you are automatically respected by everybody sitting behind you. The respect is in my experience mutual, I repect others for the contribution they make and I believe some may respect me for my contribution.

I wish you all the best in your training and hope that the investment pays dividends. (Not in cash but in the fulfillment of your ambition)

Most of us are grateful for the opportunities that we were given and really enjoy the challenges that our job provides. However be warned that all may not be as rosy as it seems.


Regards
Exeng

[7p3i7lot]

Danny etal, great thread!
I'll put the question to you all a little differently.
Knowing what you know now and where you think the future will take the pilot job (or profession if you prefer), would you encourage a loved one to enter the field? (Son, daughter, sister brother, best friend etc)

What caveats would you use when deciding? Something like:
1. I'd recommend a pilot career only if that person cared more about flying than anything else and was willing to do it even if they didn't make it to a "Major" airline and had to eat peanut butter sandwiches for 30 years.
2. I'd actively encourage them to get into it for all the perceived benefits of the job even if they were undecided about their love affair with aviation.
3. I'd actively discourage them from going down a long and arduous path without any guarantee of future security or happiness.
4. I'd encourage them to go for it but have that "Plan B" readily available in case.

Me? I went into it for the love of flying and on most days I don't regret it. But for my kids, I think I would go with my first numbered option.

[Barzha]

I would recommend anybody to make their own choice . It is the only way to live in this world and be happy .

[UAL Furlough]

I love reading these posts from people who aren't pilots and saying things like "I would give my left arm to be in your shoes" or "Millions of people would kill to be in your position". Really?? I still got my left arm and I haven't killed a soul. But I did work 2 jobs while going to college, Worked my butt off for two years as a Naval Flight Student, deployed to Seven 6 month deployments in seven years away from my wife and kids while on active duty, got shot at in the desert while living in a tent with 7 other guys and eating camel ribs, spent my own money and studied hard to comlete my civilian flight ratings, sent out 50 resumes and completed 3 interviews to get to the airlines, worked hard and went through 4 full aircraft transitions in 5 years in the airlines, flew through September 11th on to furlough at the same time fulfilling my Military reserve duty. So don't give me that crap that millions would do this or that....because they haven't and they won't. If I want to bitch, I've earned the right.

BTW, I still love to fly but I won't do it for free and I won't be stepped on by management, and I won't accept from anyone that I didn't earn it or don't deserve it.

Just my two cents.

[sheenboy]

I'd argue that many intelligent gifted people who would make great pilots don't do so because the pay is not as good as elsewhere.

I only got as far as being offered a place on the BA Cadet programme some years ago (nothing special I realise) but I turned it down because I'd have to take a pay cut AND the potential 'ultimate' pay was poor.

Fact is you can work in consultancy for various companies on various subjects for at least £200k a year. Doing :mad: all hours as well...

The world is a bizarre place....:(

[jerrystinger]

I don't agree with the thread that being intelligent and gifted equates to being a good candidate for a flying career! It is well known that most pilots are not educated to degree or MA standards! Those that do have higher qualifications go to work in a designer suit and not in a Mcdonald's style outfit with accompanying name badge!

[Superfly]

"I don't agree with the thread that being intelligent and gifted equates to being a good candidate for a flying career! It is well known that most pilots are not educated to degree or MA standards! "

Like if you needed to be educated to show a trace of intelligence !!! Ask George W Bush :E

YES the job is very diserable indeed :ok:

SF

[YVRKid]

the stereotypical wannabe wants to fly 744s long haul...i wanna fly Air Canada A319....i think I need to see a doctor :p my mom's direct quote after we saw an Air Canada A319 and I told her i was going to fly it..."That dinky piece of :mad: " lol

[Morzy]

I�ll tell you guys what is a really 'dream flying job' (at least for me). To fly somewhere in Caribbean region (for example) with your own little bird. Carry beautiful and less beautiful tourists around and between islands. What :mad: could be more desirable. Don�t give no :mad: about airlines. Working for somebody in any business always includes in someway putting your cavities for use.

[corner speed]

I still enjoy flying the jet plus the layovers or night stops can still be fun. Security sucks, especially in the US. Those dinosaur flight attendants are another problem. Most of them are overweight and they look like :mad: . Pay has also gone down the :mad: .
So, draw your own conclusions.:yuk:

[Knave]

How desirable your job as jet pilot is depends on your perspective. Mine is that of a pilot who drove cabs, dug graves and worked night shift in a glass factory to pay for my training. Sure, the pay has deteriorated and the lifestyle can be infuriating, but a good memory stops me spitting the dummy and quitting in protest. No Im not willing to work for peanuts to keep flying, but I know when Im better off than a lot of people I grew up with.

[MystiCKal]

I'm about to dive into the same hole as most current ATPL holders. I'll probably be stuck after pilot education with a big ASS loan and constant nagging of my family of why I did this in the first place...

Well, even though a job may not be immenent. My dream is to fly. Doesn't matter if it's in a Cessna or a Boeing or an Airbus for that matter. I'd like to sit up their in the cockpit one day sipping some coffee as the captain of the fleet. The odds of that happening is 1:1.000.000. But still I will not give up this dream of mine. If I was down to my last penny, I'd use it to fly. Guess I don't have the experience of having a family since the financial aspect is different than mine. I just need to support myself.... But as long as I'm independent, my last penny will be spent on flying....

[crazypilot]

Just to give my brief opinion - what it's worth I don't know ---

Flying is and always will remain something special when compared with many, if not most ofther professions. Whether this be in a dinky little Piper Warrior flying out of EGTC now and again (weather depending) to do a short x-country over to Gloucestershire or out of EGLL for a longhaul flight over to the US, flying, in whatever form it may be is still a lot more interesting than most jobs.

My opinion -- having trained as a pilot (although not one now) and having many close friends who are pilots - some are shorthaul F/Os with low-cost carriers in the UK, some are Captains with the aforesaid, one is a longhaul 777 pilot with EK, another a Chief Pilot for an executive jet company - they all love flying, but their job satisfaction varies greatly, so I think people really need to take a long hard look at basically who they are working for.

What I am trying to say is that at the end of the day, flying is flying, the job satisfaction, pay, rostering, hours flown, aircraft flown, whatever depends on their company entirely, so I think it's pretty difficult to come up with an overall conclusion of the job in an overall state, there are so many variables, although true, as we keep hearing and most definitely believe, the lifestyle associated with being a pilot has changed a great deal and I think it is very unlikely that the welcoming conditions of work and pay that used to be associated with the job will ever return.

There will always be new pilots wanting to fly commercially and with the low-cost carriers quite obviously taking over and transforming the industry (and thereby affecting how the incumbent BA-type carriers also operate), I don't think O'Leary and Co are ever going to back down -- they are going to continue to offer cheap prices, attract customers and keep stimulating demand by keeping costs low -- which boils down to low labour costs and high crew utilisation. Just the way it is unfortunately.

If you look at the job of a pilot compared with most others -- even within the aviation industry, it is still pretty good, well-paid (pilots contrary to what is said in this discussion still earn more than a sizeable proportion of airline management) and the hours pilots work is still less than that of the airline's ground employees. Working in airline management requires just as much training and commitment as does being a pilot, as does any other position you may be in. Everyone else also works just as hard but that is something we have to all live with --- we wouldn't all be working in this industry if we didn't still enjoy it.

As for me, yeah I work in the industry, earn good money, work hard (only get to check PPRuNE occasionally as opposed to everyday a few years back), and enjoy my job. I still fly but only in light aircraft and the aerobatics still feeds the buzz for flying that I always get.

Admittedly though -- surely flying has to still be better than working for a living...

Best regards to you all...

CP

[Desk-pilot]

I'm an ex BA Manager who left a comfortable well paid job to pay for my own ATPL course because all my life I have wanted to be a pilot. The attractions are:

I Love flying aeroplanes
I love travelling and seeing new places
I love the fact that it's a job with defined parameters ie when the flight is finished you go home rather than taking problems home
I love the fact flying gives you a greater degree of flexibility over where you live because you work shift hours and don't have to live within commuting distance of a big city centre
I believe even now in many companies such as BA/Virgin/Channel Express etc pilots are respected
I love the fact that there is always something new to learn about flying whereas most office jobs don't really require much ongoing learning
It still has glamour due to the uniforms and the travel - I know I will feel desperately proud the day I first wear an airline uniform.

However, I worry that the likes of O'Leary are treating pilots so badly that this could spread to other operators and even diminish safety. I will have sunk over £100000 into this career change (with loss of earnings for 18 months plus training costs) and it's not a very good investment in purely financial terms - it will be some years before I am even financially back where I was.

Would I do it again - yes, but I do feel that it isn't quite the job it once was - ten years ago there was a possibility of long layovers in Mauritius etc earning £90000 a year, but now it's looking more like £30000 a year for shuttling to Europe 3 times a day which isn't quite the same!!

Desk-pilot

[MorningGlory]

In early 2000, already owning a ppl and having researched my 'idea' and come up with a plan over a period of around 2 yrs, I made the jump. I left a professional and reasonably well-paid job as an engineer to change careers to be a pilot.

Everybody thought I was mad, BUT most seemed to have a certain amount of admiration for my bravery, infact I remember one individual calling it a hoop dream.. (always makes me smile when I think of that..!)

Well, here I am, jet pilot, burning fuel everyday in the skies of Europe. Is it as desirable as I perceived it to be? On some days yes; early morning sunrise over the Alps blue skies and a perfect landing makes you feel great inside, (something I never felt as an engineer). When parents ask if their kids can have a look in the flight deck, when you know they really just want to have a look themselves and ask more questions than the kids, makes you realise there is a little mystery and desire left in the job.

Other days No, it can be a pain. Delays (especially at night) means home late, cabin crew in a bad mood (frequent) can make a big difference to your day, and the occasional passenger who thinks they can operate the aircraft better than the crew. That infact is one of my pet hates; you do occasionally come across idiots like that, people who think they can fly the 60t jet they are sitting in just because they have done 3 flying lessons in a cessna, or worse the ones that always say 'its easy, all you have to do is push a few buttons'.

Well if it was that easy everyone would be doing it, and I would be earning less now than I was when I was an engineer! Some of the arrogant ignorance is astounding, those people have no idea of the continual thought processes, study and training involved in hauling their sorry asses 1000nms to sunnier skies for their hols every year.

I was very proud the first time I wore my uniform in public at the airport, the 'head held high' feeling. Really dawning on me I was actually working for an airline when driving out of the car park and in a surreal kind of way noticing the gold braid stripes on my jacket sleeves. Proud of my own efforts and achievements, by being able to laugh in the face of adversity and come out the other side winning, by never giving up, and dusting myself off after a fall and carrying on, and above all always believing that everyday that goes by is a day closer to my dream becoming reality. It worked!

Would I do it again? Oh yes, I love my job, but above all, I love it even more because of what I had to give up to achieve it (house, £80K and a lot of time with friends and family). It doesn't stop here though, working towards the left seat and will achieve an MSc within the next 5yrs.

Best of luck to you all, I hope you have as great a time as I have achieving my dream!

[Max Angle]

Nice post Morning Glory, despite my rather cynical outlook I echo most of what you said. My only problem is that 12 years on I still enjoy the flying but wish I could do about 1/3 of the hours for the same money!. Not much chance of that so will probably settle for 1/2 the hours and 1/2 the money at some point in the future.

[MorningGlory]

true.. when I remove the rose tinted glasses at midnight after a late, I notice the bags under my eyes are growing month by month, so 1/3hrs for the same money would be very nice indeed!

[7-Zark-7]

I say - Beautiful post Morning Glory! You worked hard and deserve the best bud. Really proud of you!

7z7
:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Barnstormer1982]

I guess it still is!

I've tried to get into the Luftwaffe back in 2001 when I was doing my army service, was rejected by my base's doc ("they never take you"), left the service, applied for the Lufthansa ab initio scheme, was not taken as the psychos found I was "too ambitious to be just a pilot" (:}), started my studies for a business degree, applied for the Luftwaffe again as someone told me my good old army doc had told me crap, went thru the selection next to my exams (all 8 weeks at my business school) and my job, was recommended for a FJ slot (psychos this time: "perfect fit into EFA profile"), did not get my bang seat medical for insurance reasons ("ten years ago you would have been in!"), was planned in for a A400M-slot, decided not to take it in June 2004 this year as I was afraid to quit my civil studies for the Luftwaffe officer training, started a placement with a company which other business degree students would cut both their left and right arms off for, found that it is not the right thing for me, and re-applied for a new slot in 2005.

It really depends on what kind of person you are, but if flying is what you feel what you were born for (I soloed at 14) - do it. Otherwise get some business degree and hang around in the office with nice girls and talk about your new flip-flops and the last gay parade.

[RAT 5]

Each to their own, but I feel civil flying is a way of life not simply a wage earner. The trouble is that the spectrum of 'way of life' is vast and you have no idea which one might offer itself when you set out on the road to your dreams.

There is one sure way and that is via the sponsored scheme of a paticular airline.

However, more often than not you will be disappointed. If flying for fun is what you want, strongly consider joining a profession that pays well, is predictable in its nature of what future you can expect, offers advancement and variety and guarantees enough time off to follow your pastimes and dreams. Then join a group of enthusiasts with their own aeroplane, perhaps an upside down inside out variety, and go and fly for FUN when you want to and where you want with whom you want to.

[aagg]

Man I wish you pilots would stop winding ! I always admired the job of a pilot untill I discovered PPRUN.
You guys have the best jobs on earth. You stay in great hotels all over the world. Every day you go to 'work', you go on another holiday!
You do not know what it is to do a real job!
And how high would your aeroplanes get off the ground if the check-in staff where not there, or the engineers did not sign out the aircraft, or the marketing department did not sell tickets, or the baggage handlers did not load the aircraft ? I should not mention the words, "glorified bus drivers" ? Sorry!!
You are just part of a team and part of a huge company.
If you realy want to get rich, you will have to bite the bullet and start you own business (own airline like Nikki Lauda did) ! Then you will find out what real pressures are! Not just raking in huge salaries without knowing where the money comes from.
Enjoy your next holidays !!!

[Easy Glider]

Holiday !!!!! well my holidays usually consist of moving from stand 15 to stand 16 at LGW via Tenerife or Dalaman all in the space of one day.

[spy]

aagg

Pilots love to complain! But it has to be said your description of the job shows you have little grasp on the reality of the job. In the main it is long hours of boredom broken by very busy periods and the occasional periods of organised mayhem.

I wish my job was one long holiday but sorry to shatter your illusions it is not, which is not to say I don’t get the odd nice trip in a good hotel but those trips are few and far between and mostly it is the Greek islands in the middle of the night.

Do I think the good outweighs the bad? Yes, or I would give it up and do something else. However, the changing world in which we live in has made it a much less desirable job. The locked cockpit door and low cost airlines have eroded the status and perks of the job and frankly you can earn more and enjoy a better life style in many other careers these days. The locked cockpit door has cut us of from the passengers and to some extent the crew. I for one miss meeting my passengers!

Is it the best job in the world? It is for me as I am not talented enough to earn a living as a Musician or lucky enough to be an Astronaut. It also depends on each individual as to what the best job in the world is, a good friend of mine works for the National Trust and would not swap jobs with me for all the tea in China.

Frankly PPrune has done nothing for the image of the pilot community but one thing is true aviation attracts some of the best and worst characters, so do not judge the industry and those who work in it from the posts on these forums. Most of my colleagues never visit this site. I like to chip in every now and then but most are not interested and have a certain distain for this site. It has its place but it does not often reflect the opinions of most in the profession only those who like me like the sound of their own voice!
:ok:

[Cap 56]

The locked cockpit door and low cost airlines have eroded the status and perks of the job and frankly you can earn more and enjoy a better life style in many other careers these days.

I would say that the standards to get into the profession have eroded.

Taking into account the responsibility one can not deny that this can only be complied with if the knowledge is up to speed with it.

In the 1970 and 1980 over 50 % of the pilots in the country I graduated from had a degree. ATPL courses took more than one year with a full day lesson plan.

Today it’s very different we have become buss drivers without culture or any significant in depth knowledge of what we are really doing hence, less respect.
Flying for a low cost or not makes no differance it's the CAA that sets the standards.

Cockpit open or closed is a silly argument.

I am sure if standards would be raised again you would get a completely different picture.

[spy]

Well having been around the industry for a few decades and in training, I cannot agree with your claim that standards have dropped! A degree whilst very nice to have is no guarantee of ones intelligence or ability in any profession and certainly not in aviation. If anything the standard in some areas has improved, no one man and his dog operations these days, at least not in the UK. Take a look at accident rates now and twenty or thirty years ago!

To you the locked cockpit door may be a silly argument, to many it is just one more erosion of our life style. I would not argue with your claim that the CAA sets the standard but the airlines maintain them.

Sounds like intellectual snobbery to me CAP, and yes I do have a degree!
:ok:

[Africa Dog]

You guys moan about your hours and roster(pax crews),came over to cargo flying and see how it done,only good thing about long haul is all the different local woman you can get to keep you warm during your stop over.:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[fokker1000]

Haven't read all the above for obvious reasons....
My question is, would we carry on doing it if we won £5M on the lottery?
I'd keep on flying, but not commercially.

The thought of pulling the aircarft of my choice out of the hanger at the time that I wish to blast off is still appealing rather than having to do a night HER or a min rest SFD, or a night ACE or TFS or DLM or BJV or etc etc....
Sorry folks, it's been a long few weeks.... Now where's the keys to my P51
..Umph, close to P45 I guess........
Fly safe, and greasy landings.

[kala87]

As has already been pointed out, the status and conditions of all professions has taken a downwards lurch in recent years, not just in airline flying.

I fly GA aircraft for business and fun, but my profession is in oil exploration. Here's part of my itinerary for a business trip:

Check in for at LHR for flight to Mexico City via Washington DC. Bumped off flight. Rebooked on other flight. Flight cancelled. Rebooked via Chicago. Lengthy delays in grossly overcrowded T3. Arrive Chicago. Attempt to check in for Mexico. Ticket is for wrong flight, have to rebook. Wait 8 hours in terminal until 2am departure time. Only food available is of vile junk variety. Flight delayed by snowstorm. Eventually arrive in MEX in early morning. Rush to domestic check-in. Miss onward connection due to late arrival. Lug suitcase miles down terminal hall (7500 ft altitude taking its toll) to Mexicana booking office. Get some Spanish practice trying to rebook flight with clerk who has little English. Eventually arrive at destination hours late, not a minute's sleep all night. Boss none too pleased at late arrival, demands I produce complex technical report right now. Finish report 8 hours later, completely knackered. Boss wants business dinner...etc...etc...

Of course, all the flying was in economy class and company is too mean to pay for business class. I haven't had a business class seat for the last 10 years. (bean counters don't approve)

All this, in an industry that is awash with cash.

I know the aviation industry well enough and hear stories from airline pilot friends to know just how stressful professional flying can be. And I'm fully aware how salaries and conditions in the airline industry have deteriorated in recent years. But it's a similar story in most industries for professionals of all backgrounds. Basically, we're just a commodity to be bought at the lowest possible price.

Even so, do I wish I made a career change to professional flying when I had the chance about 20 years ago? Yes, definately yes.

[Cap 56]

The opinion that was agreed upon was that a degree in exact sciences is proof that one can absorb a lot of information in a short time and that one has common sense.

It does not prove everything but it is substantial proof that one remains stress resistant.

On top of this, some good to very good psychomotor skills need to be present and a personality profile that meets the required criteria.

All the aforementioned criteria have deteriorated mainly because the job has become easier and training has been commercialized.

ATPL has become a multiple choice with no longer any requirement of in depth knowledge. This can not be compensated during training in the Airlines and is a basic responsibility of the CAA.

[sheenboy]

so....

let me sum this up

if you are quite brainy and really want to be a pilot thats what you do

if you are really brainy and want to make money you're not a pilot!!

;)

[Cap 56]

That's correct unless you love to fly for a living.

[desert_knight]

Take a look at accident rates now and twenty or thirty years ago!

Not exactly camparing like with like, equipment flown in general these days is a good deal more reliable and fool proof than in the past.


As has already been pointed out, the status and conditions of all professions has taken a downwards lurch in recent years, not just in airline flying.

This is very true, but if you still enjoy what you do and can afford to pay your bills life can't be too bad :D

[Ignition Override]

UAL Furlough: You said it so very well.

Many of the non-pilot (laymen) wannabes who resent airline pilots never bothered to do whatever they could to earn more than one civilian rating-never mind be willing to fly for the military and get shot at or killed (risk death during operational tng/carrier ops)-and assume that all planes are automated, therefore, no very hard training needed...finally, after years of working your way up, on duty for thirteen hours straight or more with only eight-nine hours (total) in a hotel is "on holiday"? Only five, six or at times seven legs per day, no matter what the weather...

They usually won't admit that First Officers in the smaller planes earn not much more per hour than US minimum wage. They could be in that seat for over two years. But these pilots supposedly have no right to really complain....

Let the laymen wannabes do what is required before they can begin to presume to understand what it is to walk in our shoes, or get laid-off like many thousands around the world.

So many of the laymen understand nothing but think that they know it all.

The envious can simply fill out the applications and mail them in.:D To paraphrase a certain pilot's famous response to a Cyber-Geek who works from his keyboard and finds most airline pilots grossly over-paid; those who qualify might be called for the interview, if they bother to spend over fifteen thousand dollars for the ratings and are willing to work for peanuts for a while and work for shaky employers on the bottom rungs of aviation. That's just the beginning. Bad luck, violation or a major accident and maybe no more career.

After the thousands of furloughed pilots in the US have been recalled to work, then some wannabe/laymen might have resumes looked at-but what, only Microsoft/television remote control "instrument time"? :oh: Our companies are Equal Opportunity Employers. The geeks/wannabes either are resolved to go down the very long/difficult road or they don't have the required guts/determination, stamina and luck. They can change the tv channel, eat another slice of pizza while they log the necessary "instrument" time, instead of trying to at least earn the Private then instrument ratings, which still do not lead to the minimum-wage entry-level flying jobs. :uhoh: In the US, few pilots with 400-500 hours are hired by regional airlines, but with exceptions. Some have been hired, but a Line Check Airmen told me that it is because there is no pay during training for the Canadair CRJ, and many experienced pilots can't financially survive such insulting conditions for several weeks. Those who have made it to the US majors, including the thousands who are now laid off...:oh:... , flew turboprops and/or jets for several years, maybe 10-15, before they were hired. The ONLY reason that some companies have had (for many years) very good pay and benefits is not because the airlines felt that pilots were worth it, but on the contrary, because the unions, despite their flaws and compromises, stood up and expected a good bit more, based on years of training and skills acquired, than professionals in some other transportation industries. Now, maybe driving a truck/lorry also requires years of training. I have no idea.

[skymogel]

at my airline rumour has it people are leaving, one guy is going to Europe to work as an electrician!!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

From what I hear 'degrees' are not worth the paper they're written on these days...compared to degree courses of 20 years ago.

The whole world is on a race to the bottom of the barrel...we're still paid reasonably well and with worldwide (well outside the US anyway) shortages of qualified pilots I think our terms and conditions are set for an improvement..well if there's any truth to the (beancounter) Law of Supply and Demand.

This job is like any other...if you REALLY want to fly and aren't just a young :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: who thinks the only flying job worth having is a big shinny jet...then you'll have a good time...as good as any job can be after years and years at it.

For me I'd die a slow death working in an office that didn't have a constantly changing view.

[Yossarian]

After almost 10 years in military aviation which I really enjoyed, I decided it was a good time to try something else. Airline flying had never really appealed to me but I figured I could always try something else if it didn't suit. Surely, if it sucked, the other life would still be available to me and then I could speak with some authority when I said that I didn't want to be a "button pusher".

I did 4 years with a regional outfit and then when the company went bust, did some charter work. I can tell you that I was weak-kneed when my application for another airline job was accepted.

I understand that airline flying has its downfalls, but there are many perks. I now fly for a major carrier and although I miss the "stick and rudder" stuff, the overall benefits of being with a major airline far outweigh these misgivings. The challenges are in different areas and I count my blessings to be where I am today.

I have friends in all areas of aviation and I respect their choices. Many are stuck in their niche due to circumstance, others by choice. At the end of the day, it is all very personal, and depends on your life choices. However, is it not better to make an informed choice rather than to rely on hearsay or common beliefs.

[Airguitar]

Anyone who takes the time to browse these pages in his free time and then says he hates his job is kidding himself.

[birdbrain]

It's rapidly losing it's appeal for me...........
I am changing job and location soon... LOTS more dosh, closer to home (fewer nights away ).... and part-time at home, when it suits (both sides.. )
you guys can have the BIG sky.
I'll be able to bop around lots more now, down here @ 3000'

WOOHOO... !:ok: :cool:

[Crossunder]

"Because I fly, I envy no man on earth."

[16 blades]

Having read this thread, as a mil pilot looking to make a decision on an approaching option date, I now see what some previous posters mean by 'perspective' So here's some perspective....

-Regular 14-16hr days, in slow green noisy vibrator, most avionics obsolete. Some airframes almost 40 yrs old. Sometimes 18hr days. (not uncommon in op environments).

-Management just as incompetent, self-interested, empire building. Except they can order you to do anything and you can be jailed if you refuse. Exponential increase in management / bluntie inspired bullsh1t and penny-pinching.

-Regular 3-8 week detachments to hot & sandy places, often at short notice. No allowances paid for this. Live in a tent. Get mortared / rocketed / shot at on a regular basis. Sometimes fly your mates home in coffins.

-Undergo regular check rides, sims once per month, no-notice standardisation checks where one minor :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:-up will get you grounded. Maintain a vastly wider skill base with training hrs and budgets pared to the bone. Skill levels and ability vastly in excess of what an airline would require.

Oh yes, and all for roughly 50-60% of the salary one could expect from a major carrier (for equivalent experience / quals, when additional benefits taken into account)

Did I mention getting shot at as well?

ADVANTAGES:

-More interesting, sometimes downright awesome flying, plenty of polling. Hauling a 60-ton aircraft around at 250ft and throwing stuff out the back. Fun.

errr......thats it.

The RAF will undoubtedly be looking for ME pilot redundancies after the recent cuts announcement.

There will be no shortage of volunteers.

Especially among those who have gained licences and are gagging to join the industry that so many have been deriding in here.

Like I said, perspective..............

[maxy101]

16 Blades Difference is we are not in the Army or Air Force. We´re not fighting a war. This is a civilian operation carrying fare paying pax supposedly as safely as can be. I hope any fair minded passenger would read PPRune and realise that is not the case anymore. How come other airlines/ businesses manage to treat and pay their staff well? It´s not just down to high fuel prices. Airlines are declaring profits now. What happened to the profits from previous years? In BA it was squandered away by inept management . White elephants such as ethnic tail schemes and new HQ´s. Millions spent on teaching us to be nice to one another. Latest course costing millions is to tell us (the staff) how WE have to save 300 million quid. Suggestions like " well cancel this course for a start" are met with stony stares at your name badge. This is what annoys the majority of us.

[B727-200]

I have read with interest many threads on this website over the past few months and must say that I have found it to be unparalleled in its wealth of information. I have used it to research both 'factual' information and to seek out opinions of future peers on everything from working hours and roster patterns to medicals. This, however, is my first post.

I have been particularly intrigued by this thread, which has coerced me out of the shadows from being a casual reader to a contributor to the forum.

I don't wish to elaborate on my current situation, but to put you in the picture, I will begin flight training soon and have no reason to believe that I won't be sitting in the RHS of a twin jet in just under two years' time (world political events pending). I am about to leave a 'reasonably' well-paid job (for my age) with prospects in order to embark upon this journey to achieve a life ambition.

This thread intrigues me in that many of the comments regarding the profession 'commercial airline pilot' are negative. I don't wish to belittle anyone's work grievances and not yet having the same perspective as them, I am not well placed to comment on what those grievances are, but are there not some people out there who actually like what they do for a living?

I have been heartened by a couple of postings of pilots on here who say they love what they do for a living (and disheartened by many who say that they don't). Are these people who say they love flying new to the industry? Are they naive? I suspect that they are not. More likely is that their outlook on life enables them to appreciate what they do and to feel lucky to go to work in an industry that they are passionate about (of course everyone has their bad days).

I really don't wish to offend anyone and you may wish to shoot me down as I am not a pilot yet and so don't have a pilot's perspective but I do feel that certain threads attract more negative than positive comments, which might skew perceptions (for people reading these threads).

I for one look forward to working in an industry, which I think about day in, day out. I love aeroplanes and for me it's as simple as that. Sure, every job has its downsides and I have no doubt that there are a few in Aviation. However, it is the reasons 'why I want to do the job' that I hope will keep me in the profession and I am determined for this not to be outweighed by the negatives.

My general observation (although generalising is not wise) is that in all industries you have people who are happy with what they do and those who are not. There will always be people who will say how it used to be better (perhaps I will be one of those in 20 years' time), but I do believe in keeping a perspective as 16 blades explained so well. In the end, everybody is free to make their own choices in life and this will depend upon their preferences. I currently do a job because it pays reasonably well, I hope I will soon be doing a job because I really really really want to do it. If you aspire to work for a large carrier then there is no reason not to expect a decent (fair) wage.

I could continue with this all morning but perhaps I should leave it there and await the replies. I would be interested in constructive comments on this. My intention is not to offend anyone or get their back's up, just to paint the picture as I see it. I would love to hear from those who have been doing the job for a number of years and still love it, but feel free to chip in if you have been doing it for a number of years and hate it!

In the end, life is what you make of the opportunities you have.

Thanks for reading,

B727-200

[16 blades]

Maxy,

Thank you for clarifying some of the issues for me that you guys face. Reading your post, I could almost believe you are a Mil AT pilot - we face almost identical issues with where our funding is going (MOD pay £2000 each for fancy office chairs whilst we can't get enough spares / essential kit upgrades for the ac), daft trendy management decisions, etc. The point I was making was that we get paid considerably less for putting up with it than you do.

It seems that you guys bemoan your lot just as often as we do, and usually about the same kind of things. Reading this thread and others here have really opened my eyes - the airlines are perceived by the RAF, in general, to be a Nirvana, the land of milk and honey where the aircraft all work, your programme is planned months in advance and never changes, you are payed twice as much money for half the work, the downroute allowances are worth a small fortune and you don't have to jump through a ridiculous succession of hoops and a vast reef of paperwork to get them. Where we may one day end up if only our option / exit dates match recruiting cycles. I'm grateful for the perspective you gents have provided here. Perhaps if I do eventually choose a civ career, my expectations will not now outstrip the reality - often, I believe, part of the problem, particularly for guys crossing over from the Mil.

I think that we pilots are, by nature, demanding and fussy, and as such most of us will find something to complain about after we've been in a job long enough, regardless of what the job is.

I don't think commercial pressures / competition are to blame IMHO - the RAF AT fleet has seen a parallel increase in workload / decrease in resources / erosion of perks and T&C along with the airlines over the last 10-20 years. Maybe it's just a reflection on the way society is evolving in general, as everyone seems to have similar complaints these days.

When I joined the RAF, I found myself listening to countless bar war stories from the knackered old sh1ts that painted a glorious picture of the good old days, and how crap it was now in comparison. I am sure I will be doing exactly the same by the time I leave (If I stay beyond my option) - it would seem hindsight is ALWAYS rose-tinted!

[I-FORD]

I dreamt of being a pilot when I was 6.
I've been lucky enough to join a major airline in my early 20s.
The efforts I've put in achieving my goals (in money, years of study and kicks in the a.. received) are minimal compared with the rewards this job still gives me, after more than 20 years.

Luckily I still see young boys and girls looking forward to strap in a cramped cockpit seat, with no hint of what the salary will be when and if they will succeed in standing all the pains we all know, both civilian and military flyiers.



"Because I fly, I envy no man on earth."

[GearDown&Locked]

Flying is what I've always wanted to do. It's like a calling that you can't resist. You can fight it but eventually it bites back, again and again, every time harder than the previous. They pay for that? - Excellent! Until now life never has given me the opportunity to get into this profession. Now, I have that opportunity at hand, but I'm afraid it came too late. I'm on my late 30's, and from what I’ve read here, there are no vacancies for an inexperienced 40 year old pilot on this market. I guess that’s what a woman, about the same age, thinks when she’s having second thoughts about having a baby because she’s too old, even though she knows that probably it’s her last chance. Well, I will get my PPL anyway, it’s not the same thing, but at least it gets me closer to the birds I envy.

GD&L
:ok:

[Woof etc]

Sure its not the same thing - its better!

[RAT 5]

G.D & L'd.

I've been commercial flying for 30 years. It started with a tremendous diversity of G/A jobs, from aerobatic airshows, crop spraying, air-taxiing & biz jets, before airline opportunities became available. When thet did, the attraction was obvious. After 25 years of that gravy train I've discovered the closeness to the birds you envy. It ain't at 37000'. It's at more humble heights beneath a paraglider. I've soarded with eagles and drifted with buzzards. I've climbed upto cloud base and played amongst the thermals. I've travelled at the breakneck speed of 20kts to a place I knew not where, until the lift denied me further flight. To look down, from 10.000', sitting in your harness, and see nothing beneath you until terra firma, is a true flier's dream. It was my choice to go there, my choice to take off and my effort to stay aloft. The thrill is immeasurable. I commend it to anyone who claims to be a dream flyer.

[Brenoch]

I think Danny posts the ultimate question with this one..

I've been in the industry for 10+ years now, boyhood dream and all that.. The first time you took to the skies in your first big jet was a sensation of accomplishment. That said, it doesn't last for very long and quite soon you'll find yourself in a routine that I suppose comes with any monotunous profession. Then came that dredded day that threw everthing upside down. Airline management using it as an excuse to shaft their staff bigtime..

I've been ever since I've got on the heavyjets with well respected and renouned carriers. That is worth nothing these days. Everything is measured by what sleasy and that top-crook head of an irish outfit I woudn't call an airline but rather :mad: .
I hate being compared to such companies by beancounters with their heads so far up their :mad: they coldn't tell it from a hole in the ground.

Fortunately I'm not too old to change my carreer-path and for the first time ever I'm accually considering doing so.
My seat is up for grabs by some eager youngster willing to pay an airline to be entitled to work for them (not knowing he/she accually shoot him/her self in the foot)..

The industry as a whole is in absolute tatters..

[jerrystinger]

Brenoch - It's funny how some on here have convinced themselves that the job is still something, when the rest of the world feels sorry those working for airlines nowadays....Those that can do (and sit back comfortably in First class or business), those that can't fly (and chauffeur the rich around)!

[maxy101]

JerryStinger.....Don't mind anyones pity...I just wish they would pay realistic fares for their tkts, so that airline employees get a decent salary.....

[RAT 5]

Once again it would seem industries like ours are to be shafted. In the early 90's the new EU directives about working conditions were published. Public transport, for one, was exempt for a few years, and compensation packages had to put in place because people such as flight crew could not enjoy the improvements imposed on behalf of ground workers. IT NEVER HAPPENED!

Now the debate about the max working week is open again. 48 hours is considered to the max reasonable anyone can be scheduled to work. In France, Holland and maybe other countries, the norm is already below 40, never mind 48.

So how come, once again our industry is not included in this debate? Thus, in UK, a 55 hour week can be rostered, and from experience it very often is. (worse in other EU states) On top of this it is scheduled in a random shift pattern, so sleep deprevation is guaranteed.

Where are the unions in all this debate? Silent, incredibly! Where is the Health & Saftey Exec in this debate? Equally silent, even more incredible!

For how much longer must industries such as ours, and there are many others, put up with seeing relative working conditions deteriorate? It is a complete joke.

[Tokoloshe]

It's interesting having read many of the varied replies on this thread. Life, as in aviation has many ups and downs and I am sure we have all been there. Like many others I knew from early days that I wanted to fly. Started off flying hang-gliders and eventually got the PPL after school. The dream was always the "airline job" and after 14 years of trying it eventually came true. Had some of my best moments on the 747 classic until the company decided to retire them and go with plastic gee-whiz models. Since then I've had many thoughts of chucking it in and going back to flying helicopters. Sure the money is not so good but I would at least get my life back. :hmm:
However, the comment about the bit between brakes off and on is what keeps most of us there especially in the present environment. We all dwell on the bad things but I certainly don't want to go back to places like Somalia, Sudan & Afghanistan just to earn a living. The memories will always be there. :ok:
Those that have made the move away from the airline job voluntarily; I envy your commitment. I, for one, am still too scared to let go off something that I chased for to long..!:{
Finally, for those that are still trying to get there; don't give up:D

[banshee22]

No doubt some genuine grievances RAT 5,but I can't understand your statement about the unions not applying the appropriate pressure to change industry standards-could it be lack of solidarity amongst pilots,-after all RAT 5 unions are only as strong as their members.

Cheers Bansh.

[RAT 5]

Banshee,

I don't want to enter into a discussion about unions, but to answer your comment;

"Unions are only as strong as their members." That is certainly true in individual companies negotiating local conditions. Many times I have been surrounded by the hoards of wingers and bar-room politicians. When asked to man the ramparts and put their efforts behind their words, the vanishing act was amazing. Thus nothing ever improved etc. etc.
However, membership fees go into employing union General secretaries. It is their task to ensure the profession, of whatever ilk, on a national scale, is not unfairly attacked by any unscrupulous employeers. The union management has a duty to monitor any new practices that will endanger the profession as a whole. Equally they have a duty to ensure that all agreed benefits, and especially legal edicts, are correctly applied on a national scale. They have a responsibility to the whole of the profession when national issues are at stake.
They should lead from the front. They are professionals at this and paid as such. Sadly, in the cases I mentioned, professional leadership was abscent.

[fcom]

I fly once a week as an F/O get 60K, the occasional leg over down route and some duty free what could be better.

[jerrystinger]

What could be better? Maybe a proper/decent job?