Tailwheel/crosswind advice please! [Archive]

122.45

7th Jun 2004, 09:41

Hi everybody

I'd like some advice from the experienced tailwheelers out there. I have about 150 hours TT, mainly on the ubiquitous PA28s and C152/172, but have recently jumped into the PFA world with and learned to fly a tailwheel aeroplane. I have about 25 hours tailwheel now (Jodel), 18 solo, but still struggle with crosswinds, even fairly light.

Saturday is a perfect example. Landing on a grass runway, wind was from the right, about 12kts 40 or 50 degrees off the runway. Touchdown itself was fine (wing-down into a three-pointer) and the rollout was straight. As the speed dropped down to about 20kts (so 5-10 seconds after landing, no brakes were used) the aeroplane suddenly started to weathercock into wind, left rudder didn't do anything (too slow to have much rudder authority?) and it took an unpleasant burst of left brake to keep the aeroplane from leaving the runway and hitting a markerboard.

It's not the first time this has happened, and I'm wondering what i'm doing wrong. I'm three-pointering, always; I was taught wheel landings but never like them on grass because a badly-timed bump can ruin even a perfect wheeler. I don't think that's the problem though, rollouts are fine so it's not a lack of rudder at speed. It's the slowing down at the end that catches me out. What am I doing wrong, or is it always like this? I really don't like using brakes, i'm worried about tipping onto the nose.

And finaally, a bit off topic, but I was told that there were two types of tailwheel pilots. Those who have groundlooped, and those yet to groundloop. Is this true, or bar-room banter to scare the new boy?!? I don't think i've come really close yet, plenty of swerves on landing when I was starting but nothing too bad and it's just this bit at almost walking pace now. Does seem like the aeroplane could swap ends at 15kts though. Can I damage the aeroplane at those speeds, or is it just ugly? I've heard that the Jodel wheels aren't very strong in a groundloop?

Love the aeroplane in the air. Don't love crosswinds. :(

Thanks for your thoughts.

Will (122.45)

FNG

7th Jun 2004, 09:49

I hardly count as an old hand (approx 150 hours tailwheel out of 310 total) but am definitely a member of the "have groundlooped" club. I know several very experienced tailwheel pilots, instructors included, who are also in that club.

Re the crosswind, as you know, the brakes on tailwheelers are far more for steering with than for stopping, and, as you found, may be needed whilst dancing in a crosswind (especially on a hard runway). The aircraft shouldn't tip up if you are judicious with the brakes. You might try a small application of power in order to push some air past the rudder.

The effects of groundlooping obviously vary according to speed and type. I laughingly refer to my groundloops as gentle pirouettes, and luckily they did not damage the aircraft.

FlyingForFun

7th Jun 2004, 10:01

122.45,

First of all, well done on noticing the problem, and trying to do something about it.

From your brief description, it sounds as if you're not using the ailerons correctly on the roll-out. You don't say which method of cross-wind landing you're using, but whether you're landing wing-low or de-crabbing, you will have some into-wind aileron when you actually land. As you slow, and the ailerons loose effectiveness, you will need to increase the ailerons until they are fully deflected.

Once the ailerons are fully deflected, you might find that in some types, in some cross-winds, you still need to use the brakes to steer. I don't know the Jodel family at all, so I don't know if they fall into this category or not - maybe someone else will be able to say for sure?

As for wheel-landings, I would suggest you get a good instructor to do enough of them with you that you can be confident of them. As soon as the wheels touch, move the stick forward just a tiny amount. Once you've done that, it's simply a matter of doing whatever you need to do to ensure that the attitude remains the same. That way, the wings will not be producing enough lift to counteract your weight. If you bounce due to a bump in the ground after landing (I think this is what you're afraid of, have I got that right?), maintain the attitude and the angle of attack will not change significantly unless it's a really bad bounce (in which case you can go around) and so the aircraft will simply settle back onto the ground again exactly the same way as it would during a 3-pointer (when the wings aren't producing enough lift to keep the aircraft in the air because they are stalled).

All of this sounds like it could be cleared up with just an hour or two with an experienced tail-wheel instructor. Make sure you instructor really does know how to fly tail-draggers properly, though.

I fall into the category that has ground-looped, although it was helped by a wing clipping the crops at the side of the runway. Yes it did damage the aircraft. But even so, I still believe that it's possible to have a long tail-dragging career without groundlooping, as long as you remain constantly on the ball when on or close to the ground, and make sure you respect your aircraft. Do as I say, not as I do!

FFF
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Evo

7th Jun 2004, 10:03

I can't do much apart from offer sympathy - i'm at a similar level of tailwheel experience, and I don't like crosswinds much either. I'm getting better, but still tend to stay on the ground if it looks like it might get beyond me. Overcautious, probably, better safe and all that.

As for groundlooping, I haven't done it ... yet. I've seen FNG groundloop though :E and they were rather graceful. In fact as a very low-hours student who didn't know about groundloops, I thought he was showing off... :rolleyes:

FNG

7th Jun 2004, 10:08

FFF, I'm not disagreeing, but isn't the enhanced tendency to groundloop in a crosswind landing a product of factors including drift, the keel effects of fuselage and fin, and ground friction, all tending to produce yaw which, if uncorrected, will rotate the aircraft?

Evo, you are, as always, too kind. (PS that time at Popham the aircraft really did have a fault in the tailwheel assembly: honest!, but I've done a proper one without any technical assistance)

stiknruda

7th Jun 2004, 10:29

I only have about 450 hours tailwheel time and a similar amount in tricycle undercarriages but I have also groundlooped, just once and have witnessed FNG groundloop at a pprune fly-in a couple of years ago at Popham.

Unless they are being grossly mishandled, tailwheel aircraft tend to groundloop as they slow down on the roll out; the rudder runs out of authority because of the reduction in airflow. In the Pushpak it was from 30 to 20 that it was most prone to swap ends - in the Pitts it is the decelleration through 40mph that it can misbehave.

Using asymetric the brakes is fine but use them with caution.

My groundloop occured at an estimated 20mph with quite a stiff wind. I'd flown in excess of 5 hours with 7 landings and was tired and could not wait to put the aeroplane away for the night and stop for a pint on my way home. As I landed at my home field, I slipped into that comfort zone that familiarity engenders. Did not concentrate as hard as I should have done and I reacted too slowly to all the warning signs - result a quick 270 turn and no damage to the aeroplane but my pride was seriously dented!

Stik

Shaggy Sheep Driver

7th Jun 2004, 10:43

I have about 700 hours, mostly in taildraggers, but no Jodel time. A lot has been in the Chipmunk, including various Cubs, Citabrias etc right through to a Waco and Stearman - and lots of others in between.

I go for 3-point as my 'standard' arrival, wheelers if there's a strong wind. You seem to have been taught wheelers as standard, which is a bit odd, and I wonder about your basic tailwheel training. Usually, 3-pointers are taught as standard and wheelers follow on.

If landing out of wind it is not unusual for a taildragger to require steering by ue of differential brakes in the latter part of the landing roll. That's why brakeless aeroplanes, like Tiger Moths, are supposed to be landed into wind at all times if poss.

You are unlikely to tip it on its nose if just one brake is applied - that will cause to it to swing, rather than tip, unless it is done viscously and hard. Be gentle, anticipate, and use the minimum differential brake that will keep you staright.

I'd re-iterate what some have said - find a good tailwheel instructor and do a couple of hours with him/her. Always 3-point unless a wheeler is more appropriate, and don't be afraid to use differntial brake to steer in the rollout if it's needed (but don't over control - little and early is the key!).

BTW, I've yet to groundloop - but I came close a couple of times:)

SSD

Kingy

7th Jun 2004, 10:49

I've done a good bit of tailwheel flying, and I'm er.. no stranger to the crosswind..:E

First off, we're looking at a 10kt crosswind component here. That is quite a lot and it may be not
that far off the limit for this particular aircraft. On the face of it, it looks like you are doing all the right things - A wing down approach will naturally leave the controls in the right place i.e. into wind aileron and opposite rudder. As speed decreases there will be a point when a bit of brake can often be needed. That's kind of 'how it is'!

Sounds like you are doing OK to me. I guess its all a question of anticipating what's going to happen. You will find many pilots don't even realize they are feeding in a little brake....

I once had an aircraft with a castoring tailwheel and no brakes... I learned all about ground looping from that! (a skid sorted it out in the end)

Best

Kingy

FlyingForFun

7th Jun 2004, 11:01

FNG - can't disagree with your comments. But 122.45 specifically said that his landing was good, it was the rollout after the landing, once the speed had decreased to around 20kts, which was causing problems. That's why I concentrated on the actions after landing (predominantly the aileron, since that's the one which I suspect most of us, me included, completely ignored until we'd been bitten once or twice!) in my reply.

Stik has emphasises the reasons why this phase of flight is so likely to cause problems. I'd never thought of it quite in quite such simple terms as he's described it, but he has far more experience in all kinds of tail-draggers than I do so I'll definitely listen to him!

FFF
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Kolibear

7th Jun 2004, 11:09

As a matter of interest, on which surface are you most prone to groundlooping, grass or 'hard'?

Shaggy Sheep Driver

7th Jun 2004, 11:12

As a matter of interest, on which surface are you most prone to groundlooping, grass or 'hard'?

Hard is far less forgiving. The drag of grass on the wheels helps it to stay straight on the roll out. And if you land a little sideways on grass no one need know. On hard, there will be a sqeaking of tyres and a nasty lurch.

SSD

122.45

7th Jun 2004, 11:25

Thank you all for some very thought provoking advice.

First off, just to clarify I was taught three-pointers first during my tailwheel lessons. Wheel landings came later, I just wanted to clarify I had been taught them (although I do not like them and I am not confident enough to use them, that's a secondary topic!). I do need to spend some more time on them with an instructor, but I don't think that my lack of ability was connected with the problem here. I was rolling out straight without problems and with little need for rudder for at least five seconds before the aeroplane started heading into wind.

My tailwheel instruction was very good, the instructor had far more to teach than I could absorb. Maybe it is time to go back for some more, his parting advice was that I was safe and to come back when I had 50 hours on the aeroplane so he could iron out any little problems then. I think he is right when the wind is down the runway, but in crosswinds i'm not so sure.

FlyingForFun, thank you for an excellent analysis (I did say what type of landing I was doing, wing down, but apart from that!). It made me realise one big mistake - when I landed the stick came straight back, so I lost the into wind aileron. I'm not sure if that caused my problem or not, but it's still a mistake.

SticknRudder, Shaggy Sheep Driver (i'm not sure what that name means) and Kingy, thank you as well. It is the low speed behaviour that is causing me problems, it seems that the 20-30 kts range is the danger area. I'm not really sure what the crosswind limit is (I did know, but my limit is lower than the Jodel's so i've forgotten) but I had hoped that 8 knots would be ok. I think my approach technique is generally good, wing down seems to work well for me and I never had problems with a PA28 up to maximum demonstrated - I know tailwheel aeroplanes are more sensitive. I would think that crosswinds up to 10kts are fairly common where i fly, maybe i'm too keen to fly before I have the basics.

Plenty to think about, thank you. I'm not sure about the responses to my "have you groundlooped" question, hopefully it's just not as bad as i expect - i have visions of the main landing gear failing mid loop, H.S. Plourde (sp?) makes it sound very dangerous. That doesn't seem to be the general experience, which is a relief.

Will.

Shaggy Sheep Driver

7th Jun 2004, 11:35

Shaggy Sheep Driver (i'm not sure what that name means)

It refers to my Yak 52 flying days, and it's wrong on 2 counts; a Yak is a shaggy cow, not a shaggy sheep. And I don't fly Yaks any more anyway.

Perhaps I should change it - or revert to my real name, as Tricky Woo has.

SSD

PS - groundloops; some aeroplanes' undercarriages will take the sidways forces OK. Other will collapse. I understand that Jodels are not very forgiving in this respect.

Monocock

7th Jun 2004, 13:49

Before I start I do not profess to be an expert on this subject.....

but....

I usually find that the easiest time to keep the a/c striaght is just after touchdown when the airspeed over the rudder is still relatively high. I usually concentrate at this point in lining up part of the cowling with something at the end of the runway and fixating on it. The tiniest swing can be noticed using this method and counteracted very quickly.

If the aircraft is running nice and straight at this point it is easier to control as you enter the "loop speed zone". As the airspeed decreases over the rudder it becomes progressively useless and you have no choice but to rely solely on the tailwheel for directional control. It is at this point that my fixation on an object in the distance is even more pronounced and my feet are ready for a sharp dab of indivifual brake if there is a known X-wind. Do not be afraid to dab a single brake but make sure it is literally just a dab. If it is for too long the swing will start the other way and you might be better to close your eyes from her on in!

I was taught that 3 quick jabs are far better than a "sideways inducing prolonged one" and it seems to work ok for me.

I fall into the "not done it YET" category although i've nearly been there a couple of times in my short tailwheel career!!

:rolleyes:

Chimbu chuckles

7th Jun 2004, 13:50

hmmm...700+ dragging the little wheel...mostly 185s bushflying.

"With little need of rudder for five seconds...'

I think she just 'got away' from you a bit...with experience you'll tend to anticipate a little more. As you decelerate you will need to keep that wing down and use brake and power sometimes to increase the rudder effectiveness..little jabs/spurts of windflow not great roaring forward thrust.

Me? Never groundlooped landing....but twice on takeoff.

Taking off once from a mountain strip the seat slid back a few notches and I had to slide way down just to reach the peddle...by which time we had swerved a fair way off course and all I could see out the side was the embankment running along one side...didn't have the reach for the required braking so dragged the aircraft into the air and staggered over the embankment with the stall warning blaring...wonderfull aeroplane the 185. :uhoh:

On another occasion I had a brake line burst landing at a very high mountain strip with an elevated threshold and a 30 degree bend before the slope went from a few % up to about 25% with a transverse slope of about 4%...reverse camber. about 400m long, 19m wide with 4 foot deep rain trenches down each side...and as an aside a very cute little bridge into the parking bay.

Now it was the left brake that failed but the strip turned right on landing but slopped off to the left :sad:

I rolled right up the top and stopped the aircraft across at the top. Unloaded the pax and thought about the departure. I had a new trainee along, 1 week in the country:E

He was all for staying but it was late in the day and I did not fancy a night in this village 7000' above sea level.

Oh I nearly forgot...a strong quartering tailwind from the right for takeoff...can we see where this is heading...I kinda needed that left brake.

Two attempts from the top, one gently rolling tail down to use the tailwheel steering and one with full power immediately for rudder control ended up in grandaddy groundloops before the tail ending up swinging back downhill with full power arresting our backward roll down the hill and got us back onto the top of the strip :uhoh:

Both at low forward speed I might add...but still plenty of 'wind up effect'.

All to the wild amusement of the assembled natives.

So I shut down and called the villages up to the top and we rolled the aircraft down to the 'flat bit' at the bottom...100m ending in a verticle drop of several thousand feet into a gorge...Ya shoulda seen the look on the newbies face when I said "Inya get where off!!!":}

To be fair dropping off elevated thresholds was commonplace when dragging full loads out of very high but virually flat strips...just the newbie didn't know that and I wasn't about to spoil the effect for him:E

When we got home I three pointed and stopped on the hard surface home runway without trouble...took Scott a few beers to see the funny side of it.

Like I said...wonderfull aeroplane the 185...looked after me through my misspent youthfull stupidity stage...as did the Islander and Twin Otter in late years:ok:

Chuck.

PS Bare in mind I was flying 12-15 sectors a day in the 185 in and out of wet, muddy, steep, flat, curved, rough mountain strips and this was near the end of my full time career on type, although I owned one for a while years later....to say I knew the old girl well was an understatement...even 18 years later I have the deepest respect for taildraggers in general and the mighty 185 in particular. That 'respect' never diminished and only relaxed when the aircraft was stopped, shutdown and chocked:ok:

TheKentishFledgling

7th Jun 2004, 16:43

I've been in an aircraft that's ground looped (in fact the flight has been mentioned on this thread....:)) and it was all pretty un-dramatic to be honest.

I think FNG describes it best as a gentle pirouette - quite graceful really :)

tKF

Mike Cross

7th Jun 2004, 17:40

I'm in the "not swapped ends yet" camp at the moment. Nearest I got was when one of the brake cables pulled out of its attachment leaving me with full brake on one side and none on the other. Now I tend to use them for steering rather than slowing down.

A couple of thoughts.

Assuming your tailwheel is NOT free-castoring are you ensuring that it is properly locked before take off? We have the Maule tailwheel, which has a spring-loaded bolt to engage the steering horn with the kingpin. The bolt is released by a cam when the steering angle passes a certain point and should re-engage automatically when you line up. However if it is mucky or lacking lubrication it might not do so and our tailwheel has even been seen doing 360's all on its own while taxying. You can check whether it has re-engaged once you are lined up by pressing on the rudder pedals. If they are relatively free-moving you ain't locked.

Second thought. For the tailwheel to be effective as a steering device it needs some weight on it. Do you have the stick hard back on the landing roll? If not the tail can be light or even bounce back into the air, making it easy to weathercock.

Mike

QDMQDMQDM

7th Jun 2004, 19:25

That's why I concentrated on the actions after landing (predominantly the aileron, since that's the one which I suspect most of us, me included, completely ignored until we'd been bitten once or twice!) in my reply.

I have about 300 hours tailwheel out of 400 TT, so I'm no expert and my crosswind landings generally resemble crazy barnstormer flying routine, but the problems seem to be when you slow down in a crosswind, at which point only a jab of brake will work. Don't be shy of using it.

Someone wondered whether you were doing wing down or de-crabbing as your technique. Well, if you're flying a small taildragger you can only do wing-down. De-crabbing in a light taildragger in any kind of crosswind is a recipe for disaster, especially on tarmac.

I have groundlooped a Super Cub on tarmac, following a wheel landing with too much power. Got her down, chopped the power and let the tail drop suddenly. Whoosh! Round she went. Gyroscopic precession and loss of P-force, I guess?

Anyway, read Stick and Rudder by Langewiesche, then re-read it. Bit longwinded, but packed with gems.

QDM

P.S. On Saturday night, I came into a markedly uphill strip with a slight tailwind, flared, put in a bit of power to cushion the landing on the uphill, gently tried to tease her down, gently, gently, gently, little bit of power, flying up the hill, pulling back, pulling back, power still on, aiming for a nice smooth landing... then she went, dropped a wing to the right, thankfully from only two feet or so and no harm done. Lessons: even Super Cubs bite, and do so with no warning; don't drag out the flare to a ridiculous degree with power on an uphill, just get it down -- they're designed to arrive firmly sometimes.

Chuck Ellsworth

7th Jun 2004, 21:13

Good advice here.

The full aeliron caution was very good.

I teach in this order.

(1) Student uses full length of runway with tail in the air until they are able to fully control the thing on the runway. Usually takes a few sessions on the runway and spread out over several lessons.

(2) Student learns wheel landings until student can consistantly show profficiency and confidence.

(3) Three point landings until student is profficient and confident.

I have over ten thousand hours tailwheel and have not ground looped yet....... BUT, I was checking a line pilot out on a Grumman Turbo Goose one day and he made a beautiful wheel landing and promptly rolled the thrust levers into bata and started into reverse and the right prop went into reverse way ahead of the left one and before I could blink the fu.kin thing was off the runway onto the grass... I managed to straighten it out and back on the runway.

He was a Twin Otter float pilot and thought nothing of going into reverse as soon as he landed.

Dosen't work worth a sh.t in a close coupled airplane like the Grumman Goose.

Anyhow good discussion troops. :ok:

Chuck

FlyingForFun

7th Jun 2004, 22:16

If you're flying a small taildragger you can only do wing-downNot true, QDM. In the Europa mono-wheel, de-crabbing is the only way to go, because any kind of wing-low landing will result in landing on an outrigger, and they're not designed to take that kind of punishment. But having said that, I agree with you in the more general case - unless there's a good reason not to do so, a wing-low landing is almost always going to be best in any light tail-dragger. That's definitely the case in every type I've flown except for the Europa.

Chuck - I'm curious as to your reasons for teaching wheel-landings before 3-pointers. I tend to think of wheel-landings as a) being more difficult, because of both the precise timing necessary in moving the stick forward, and the precise use of the rudder to control the roll-out, and b) being significantly different to a nose-wheel landing, whereas the 3-pointer is almost identical to a well-performed nose-wheel landing. Teaching 3-pointers first, therefore, seems to be logical in terms of providing the student with building blocks, and building on what he already knows.

FFF
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QDMQDMQDM

7th Jun 2004, 22:30

Not true, QDM. In the Europa mono-wheel, de-crabbing is the only way to go, because any kind of wing-low landing will result in landing on an outrigger, and they're not designed to take that kind of punishment. But having said that, I agree with you in the more general case - unless there's a good reason not to do so, a wing-low landing is almost always going to be best in any light tail-dragger. That's definitely the case in every type I've flown except for the Europa

That's a very, very special case!

Following Langewiesche, perhaps I should have referred simply to 'light conventional gear aircraft'.

QDM

Chuck Ellsworth

7th Jun 2004, 23:50

FFF :

To answer your question I have two reasons.

(1) They are learning something new, so I instill a new method of landing first, the biggest problem with making good wheel landings is judging when, how and why to make smooth accurate flares so as to touch down in the proper attitude without using up hundreds of feet feeling for the runway. The longer you take from the flare to touch down the more time the airplane has to change direction and height.

(2) Most pilots approach tailwheel airplanes with the beliefe that the three point is the preferred method of landing, this is not true as both methods have their own special benefits.

The wheel landing will generally give the best results in X/winds on paved runways, as well as the added safety if a go around is easier if started with speed and control responses to safely go around as in do another circuit .... rather than go around as in a ground loop.

May I suggest that the need to move the stick / control wheel foward becomes less signifigant when you touch down in the proper attitude as you complete the flare from the approach attitude to the landing attitude, properly executed and with slight nose down trim in the latter stages of the approach only requires you to relax back pressure slightly at touch down to transfer the weight to the wheels smoothly rather than over rotating the nose down by "pushing " the stick / wheel.

Remember these are only my personal thoughts and methods used to teach tailwheel flying, also I am not all that good at typing and trying to transfer my thoughts on a computer, I am far more comfortable and I hope understandable when interacting one on one in person.

Please do not take my comments to infer that my way is any better than anyone elses, it is just that after 52 years of flying tailwheel airplanes I find this works best for me. :ok:

Chuck

shortstripper

8th Jun 2004, 07:59

Nobody has mentioned "paddleing" the rudder?

Perhaps not the most scientific but it can help if rudder authourity is an issue in something with little or no braking. As the speed bleeds off try literally dabbing the rudder one way then the other. I found this worked well on a Tempete I used to fly from the hard runway at Shoreham.

SS

FNG

8th Jun 2004, 10:06

See page 2 of this thread

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120575&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

for the text of a recent lecture on flying WW2 fighters which, as well as being interesting in its own right, includes useful comments on grass vs hard runways etc. I am trying to find a very old link to a very clear posting by John Farley about ground looping (I have one thing in common with Mr Farley: I only ever ground loop when I have an audience. Alas, there the comparisons between us as pilots must end. )

LowNSlow

8th Jun 2004, 10:47

122.45 does your Jodel have tailwheel steering? If it doesn't then the only way you will maintain directional control in a crosswind is by judicious use of the brakes. Even if it does have steering brakes may still need to be used. It should be quite hard to get the aeroplane to stand on it's nose by using one brake. Don't stand on the pedals but equally, don't be afraid to use them. As you slow down into the 30-20knts range that is giving you the problem, a trickle of power up to say 800-900 rpm should provide enough airflow to energise the rudder without adding so much thrust that you stop slowing down. Try it on a long field first!!!!!

I have heard that Jodels aren't very tolerant of sideways thrust being applied to the undercarriage but they can't be that bad or there would be legless Jodels all over the place. Any Jodel owners out there care to comment?

Another alternative is to buy an Auster. With a free, unlockabe, castoring tailwheel and a powerful rudder they can be VERY entertaining in a crosswind.

FlyingForFun

8th Jun 2004, 14:54

Chuck - thanks for the answer. Your arguments do make sense and your methods obviously work for you :ok:

FFF
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FNG

8th Jun 2004, 15:25

Chuck, have you ever tried a wheeler in a Cap 10? It's a bit of a pain, as the prop clearance is poor. If you have, any tips gratefully received. Landing this type on a hard runway in a crosswind is always, ahem, character forming.

Chuck Ellsworth

8th Jun 2004, 15:37

FNG :

Alas, I have never flown a Cap 10.

However when first approacing any new tailwheel airplane with the first thing I check for is prop clearance with the tail in the air.

Most, but not all airplanes we get to fly will not have enough elevator effectiveness to raise the tail high enough to strike the prop on the ground.

However it is very simple to check and be sure, not to mention cheaper.

It is good practice to always keep the airplane within one thousandth of an inch from the center line, that way you stay ahead of the damn thing at all times. And if nothing else you should never run it off the runway. :ok:

Chuck

122.45

8th Jun 2004, 17:20

Thank you all - it's great to get input from people with so much experience (several people said they 'only' have several hundred hours, you have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about it!). Great tips, so I just need to get them into my head for next time :ok:

LowNSlow - the Jodel does have a steerable tailwheel. It's generally very easy to control on the ground, although I haven't mastered the art of the effortless turn through 90 or 180 degrees with just a dab of brake and burst of power that my instructor manages. The slowing down bit we've discussed is the only bit that really causes me trouble.

Chimbu Chuckles - great tales! I searched for you on PPRuNe, found plenty more. Sounds like you've had an interesting career!

I have got a copy of Langeweische, but I have never liked it much. I don't know why, as so many people think it is great. I also have Harvey S. Plourde which I really like - however, I seem to forget parts of it when I really need it... :O

Thanks again to one and all!

QDMQDMQDM

8th Jun 2004, 18:53

several people said they 'only' have several hundred hours, you have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about it

No, several hundred hours is genuinely nothing!

;-)

QDM

FNG

8th Jun 2004, 21:37

I'm a big fan of Langewische, but more on account of his general observations on flying than for his stuff on tailwheel landings. He was, of course, an advocate of triking, calling tailwheel undercarriage good for takeoffs but poor for landing.

Have you tried David Robson's book "Three Points"? I liked it.

Flyin'Dutch'

8th Jun 2004, 21:51

Too much bollox is attributed to tailwheelers.

Until 40 years ago everybody learned to fly on them and they soloed and got their licences a lot quicker than we do today.

If you can fly a trigear the way they are supposed to be flown and stay on top of it you will be fine with a tailwheel machine.

There are very few good tailwheel instructors around which propagates the myths as rather than proper tuition it becomes a matter of the blind leading the blind.

If you want to learn to fly them properly go and seek out a 'proper' tailwheel instructor, not someone who has only got the 'tick in the box'

FD

PS: The books are fine if you want to kill some time reading aviation stuff on a cold winter's evening but not necessary to understand the matter or to make a good landing. The theory of tailwheel flying can be written on the back of a (small) envelope

FNG

8th Jun 2004, 21:59

You are of course correct, FD, but some pillock has gone and lost the envelope.

TonyR

8th Jun 2004, 22:23

I think the whole tail wheel thing is as much a state of mind as anything else. Most of my 400 odd hour tailwheel time was on Cessna 185s, often the same day flying 206s. I never really noticed the difference.

Practice is the only way to improve crosswind landings, no mater what you are flying. You first must realise that you are going to "MAKE" the aircraft do something it does not want to do. You must then be aware of what the aircraft "might" do if you stop flying it.

We all, given time, develop our own crosswind skill, the important thing is to know your limits, know the aircraft limit and know the airfield well. This will not hapen in 25 hours but if you can keep pushing your self with the help of a good instructor, you will soon wonder why you ask the question in the first place.

Stay safe

Tony

djpil

8th Jun 2004, 23:07

Have you tried David Robson's book "Three Points"? I liked it. Good to see that both of Dave's books (the other one is on aerobatics) are popular in the UK - or is it because you both like the CAP 10, FNG?
Unfortunately, I've never flown the CAP. Dave and I often get together to debate aspects of his books. Over a bottle of red wine is much better than on PPRuNe. Reminds me, I still haven't got him in my Decathlon to resolve some differences we have.

I agree with FD about the envelope but the book helps to change people's habits and get their brain in gear.

NO7BCM

9th Jun 2004, 00:03

122.45, if you haven't yet contacted the Jodel owners' group, you might find it invaluable. The small contact I've had with some of their number is recommendation. Ditto the PFA boards, where there are, perhaps, a higher proprtion of taildraggin' types than here (although not necessarily a larger number). When I acquired my current love, I joined the associated club and have found nothing but help, advice and support: a little money that's been repaid with interest already.

I have only been in a Jodel once and was impressed by the differences between that and the Cubs and Citabria I'd flown up to that time. To reiterate what others have said, you seem to be doing just fine. Don't beat yourself up, go play and enjoy the experiences (matron says so).

On the second subject and as one who did, but during training, I can assure you it doesn't have to be scary. The Citabria knew more about what was happening than I did.

Aerobatic Flyer

9th Jun 2004, 06:47

This is a good thread.

FNG - I was taught to always 3 point the Cap 10, and as you say it can be a bit skittish on a hard runway in a crosswind.

I've only got a few hours on small Jodels (D113 and D119), but it is quite normal to need a bit of brake to keep them straight in a crosswind. The larger ones that I normally fly (D140) are much easier. The Jodel undercarriage is not strong, and a groundloop on a hard runway will very often cause it to fail.

QDM - glad you've found yourself a sloping strip! ;) You're right about it being difficult to do a gentle touchdown - and it's often safer to be firm. It's best to pick your touchdown point from the air, then work out where you need to flare in order to touchdown there. The flare will be a bit higher than normal due to the slope. You can flare at a normal height, keeping the power on as you do so, and then fly up the hill - but it only works on gentle slopes and it makes life difficult. With practice you can touchdown where you want in a 3 point attitude even on quite a steep slope - but it's not always gentle. You need to come and do that mountain flying course!! Funnily enough, the combination of a crosswind and a sloping runway seems to present far less problems than a crosswind on the flat. It may be just psychological, or perhaps it's due to the faster deceleration...

A and C

9th Jun 2004, 06:56

It may be time to get your hands dirty !.
The Rigging of the mainwheels on the Jodel aircraft is quite critical to the handling on the ground so it may be time that you checked the wheels for the correct rigging ( toe in or out I cant remember on this type ).

If the wheels are out of rigg it could be the aircraft that is the problem and not the way you are landing it !.

FNG

9th Jun 2004, 07:01

djpil, please pass on to Mr Robson my compliments on his books, also endorsed by my main instructor (who sometimes posts here as Snakecharmer). I think that Mr Robson has a particularly lucid style, and enjoyed the discussion of various whacky types, including Winjeels, in the appendix to his tailwheelie book.

AF, I was taught Cap 10 wheelers, but advised to avoid them if possible, and go for the three pointer on most occasions. Skittish is the word: the differential brakes are definitely needed during the landing roll if the wind is contrariwise, and even more so on a hard surface. Taxying the thing in a stiff breeze can be a bit like spending time on a Stairmaster.

I flew a Chipmunk a few weeks ago, for the first time since I was a spotty Air Cadet, but there was no wind to speak of, so I didn't get to find out what it does when the wind is un co-operative.

MLS-12D

11th Jun 2004, 16:45

Different people have different ideas of exactly what the word "groundloop" means (check this (http://www.control.com/1026181794/index_html) out! ;) ), but based upon the definition in Jane's Aerospace Dictionary ("Involuntary uncontrolled turn while moving on ground, esp during take-off or landing, common on tailwheel aeroplanes with large ground angle, caused by directional instability"), I've been involved in three groundloops: twice as PIC, once as a pax. One incident was due to a 90-degree crosswind (no damage), and the other two were due to gyroscopic effect (minor wingtip damage :ugh: ). Pilot error in all three cases. :(

The only advice that I can offer is that the many groundlooping stories should not be discounted. While I enjoy flying tailwheel airplanes, I do think that they have to be handled with due respect (especially the heavier, more powerful airplanes).

Have fun, but be careful! :ok:

whatunion

13th Jun 2004, 00:13

some excellent advice on here, fascinating.

i would like to relate a story an instructor told me many years ago.

paul was checking a new club member with tailwheel experience out in an auster. on the first approach he got the flare horribly wrong and made such a heavy landing that both legs punched though the floor. there was a moment of silence then the pilot said to paul,"some fxxxxing instructor you are", promptly opened the door, walked across the airfield and was never seen again!

LowNSlow

13th Jun 2004, 04:34

I copied this from the MilPilot's thread about the F4 Phantom:

OK, sorry for a mere ex-Air Trafficker jumping in on your "good old days" stories but I thought I might share my abiding memory of the F4J at the hands of, I think, a certain Louie McQuade. It was at Wattisham during yet another TACEVAL and it led to one of the best quotes in "Feedback" I ever saw. Apologise for the length of this but I feel it needs a bit of scene-setting and I think it is worth it in the end

Wattisham is wet and cold and the F4 is on its way home from a diversion to Brize where it had gone after dropping his chute on our runway earlier in the day. He is coming home, minus chute with p**s poor brakes and not much poke from the engine.

Basically at Wattisham in the wet, the F4J landed and was under control by the mid-point or it was getting too late to try and get airborne again. We get word that he will take the approach end cable (cos he has no chute) and we are all set. With great timing as usual the sirens go off, the masks go on and Louie is on approach.

He comes over the threshold, plonks it down and sails over the approach cable with no apparent loss of momentum. Hmmmm, thinks us in the Tower before the Tower guy utters the line "I think you missed the cable". Biting his tongue, the cockpit response is "you're right, I will re-cycle the hook and take the PUAG" (portable arrestor gear at the mid-point of the runway). "Roger that" is the Tower controllers response as he leans over the desk to get a better view through his mask; joined by the rest of us displaying not a little amount of interest in the developing situation. The aircraft slows, marginally, and sails serenely over the PUAG stubbornly refusing to connect with it as it trundles on its way.

We have just passed the point of no return, there is not enough power or runway to get airborne and probably not enough brakes or runway to stop; interest is heightening in the Tower and I order "masks off" as we hit the 'Crash Phone'. Before we can stop him, the Tower controller informs the crew that "they missed the PUAG" and, through clenched teeth now, we are informed, with remarkable confidence that they will "re-cycle the hook once more and attempt to take the overrun cable". So the F4J trundles down the runway, slowing all the time but, you always felt, not quite quick enough and it is now being hotly pursued by 3 gleaming Red Fire Engines.

Despite re-cycling, the overrun cable is not troubled by the hook and the situation, already interesting in the cockpit, becomes a tad more serious as the lumbering F4J approaches the end of the runway, the Barrier and the overshoot with more than its fair share of momentum. [Apparently cockpit discussions now turn to the likely acquisition of a couple of Martin Baker ties but hands are kept firmly away from the handles for the moment]. Ever game, Mr McQuade steps a little heavier on the brakes, squeezing every last drop out of them whilst slowing the aircraft down at a remarkable rate.

Just when it looks as though this may fizzle out into just another exercise story the tale takes a dramatic turn, literally, as the aircraft decides enough is enough, breaks free from all attempts to stop it and gracefully pirouettes through 540 degrees to leave it still travelling down the runway but now facing the wrong direction. The atmosphere is now fever pitch in the tower, and I daresay it was a little gamey in the cockpit also. I will leave it to Feedback to close this; having given the details and got to the stage where the aircraft is careering backwards down the runway the article simply states: "Finding himself going backwards down the runway, the pilot coolly applied power and brought the aircraft to a gentle braking halt in the runway overshoot".

That night in the bar when being questioned as to why he stayed with aircraft and spurned the chance of a fancy tie, the response went along the lines of "one hand on the stick, the other on the throttle what am I going to pull the handle with, my d**k!!!". I can't remember who the back-seater was but I do recall he was a lot quieter than usual that night.

BlueRobin

14th Jun 2004, 12:19

Brief ex-Jodel DR221 owner here with a few hour on type (before it toasted itself - you know the one!)

I found I had exactly the same problem as 122.45.

All the advice above assumes a servicable aircraft!

Please, check your brakes. When was the last time they were done and what was done?

Also brake symmetry. Test can be done pref. on tarmac, at no more than a safe fast walking pace, by pulling the handbrake. Does she pull evenly or pull to one side?

I never got the hang of crossy landings in the Jodel due to it's destruction so I apologise for the lack of further advice. I will say however that this year's foray into Maules, despite it's reputation for groundloops, exposes better handling than the Jodel.

BR

Evo

14th Jun 2004, 21:06

I arrived back at Goodwood's runway 24 today to find a wind of 210/18kts - a lot for me, if not for others - and with a tacho that had failed a few minutes earlier and a dodgy ASI I was quite pleased to pull off a more than acceptable landing. I was even more pleased to find time to remember a couple of tips from this thread :O

Next one will probably be a shocker of course :{

stiknruda

15th Jun 2004, 21:48

Evo,

"runway 24 today to find a wind of 210/18kts "

I agree that it sounds a lot... and in the Pitts I don't have space for one of those crosswind component charts so I do a rough brain calc...

the wind direction is less than the r/way number therefore

WIND FROM LEFT/PORT

difference is 30 which is a third of 90

SO BALLPARK I EXPECT 12 to slow my groundspeed and 6 to blow me to the right

doesn't sound so bad now, does it?

I acknowledge that mathematically it is not 100% but then neither is the wind and by the time that the observed wind has been passed, you've recieved it, done the above calculation it is probably about time to lower the left wing, negate the drift and grease it on anyway!

Stik

Evo

16th Jun 2004, 06:46

Stik, your approximation isn't a great one. You're trying to work out 18 sin 30, which equals 9kts (not 6kts) - still, possibly not a lot for some, but if the wind was 150/9kts i'd have been seriously worried about the landing, even though the crosswind component is the same.

The way I work it out is to think of the crosswind as one of three things; either up to 30 degrees, 30-45 degrees or more than 45 degrees. Then think of your watch. 30 minutes is half, 45 minutes three quarters. For more than 45 degrees I assume it's all crosswind. So

210/18 -> 9 kts crosswind
195/18 -> 13 kts crosswind
180/18 -> 18 kts crosswind

It's not quite right, but good enough for government work and no need for much in the way of maths in the cockpit.

FNG

16th Jun 2004, 08:08

Now you know why Evo is senior Geek-Wrangler and Uber-Spod of the technotron forum.

Flyin'Dutch'

16th Jun 2004, 08:16

I am a simple mind (OK you all expected that!) and go by the following for flying tailwheelers.

[edited values out for being stupid!]

FD

The point I was trying to convey is that I have set myself some limits beyond which I will not go out and fly the tailwheelers. The reasoning is that winds can and do change and you don't really want find yourself not being able to go to place x,y or z or to get back where you want to be at the end of the day. With experience these values have gone up but there are days that I am happy to go out in a trike but leave anything with the little wheel at the back safely in the hangar, taxying the things is usually the first thing that I worry about, rather than landing or taking off in a bit of a wind.

stiknruda

16th Jun 2004, 09:00

Evo,

Thanks for the maths lesson - you sound just like Wilkie (my maths master) back in the seventies trying to teach me differential calculus for advanced math! Dx by Dy, Stik! Differentiate don't integrate, boy. Keep making these mistakes and all you'll be good for is biplane flying!:D

The point that I tried to convey was that IF 18kts straight across is not outside the demonstrated cross wind capability of your aircraft then all you really need to know is that the wind is from the left.

The difference between 6kts (my rough approx) and the 9kts that results from a proper calculation is only 3kts. (Yes I know that equates to a massive 50% difference) - but 3 kts is just a zephyr.

Whilst typing this, my annenometer has showed a fluctuation of of 6 kts whilst the wind direction has remained pretty constant.

As long as you cancel any cross wind drift as the wheels touch down then you should be fine.

The whole point of the post was to engender a mindset for increasing your confidence in your abilities!

Sure, we ALL impose self policed restrictions on our own limits but as FD says, these tend to increase with time/experience.

A couple of mates are neophyes on the Pitts S1S and I suggested that a good starting point was no more than 10/10. Ie, no more than 10 kts greater than ten degrees of the nose. One, after a few weeks, is now quite competent with 10/90 and the other is getting there incrementally. The downside being that if you don't keep increasing your limits you will run out of places to visit or days to go flying on!

Stik