From Hansard, 18th May...

[Tocsin]

Light Aircraft (Noise Pollution)

6. Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): What plans he has to reduce noise pollution from light recreational aircraft. [173498]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Tony McNulty): Light aircraft have to comply with an internationally agreed noise certification standard unless they were on the UK register before 1980. This standard was tightened for aircraft certificated after 1999. There are currently no plans for additional measures to reduce noise from light aircraft, although we expect aerodromes to set, and to enforce, appropriate rules to minimise noise nuisance.

Mr. Key : Does the Minister understand how sorry we feel for him, given this can of worms with which he must deal? My constituents are pleased to put up with the noise of fast jets and military helicopters five days a week, but for two days a week and particularly during the summer weather, their quality of life is diminished by light recreational aircraft. Indeed, hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country will have their quality of life diminished by the pilots of some 8,000 light aircraft and, or course, of those "lawnmowers" that take to the skies, and which take so long to get across them. As part of his big conversation, will he please start a debate on the balance between the right of pilots of light recreational aircraft to fly in our skies, and the right of the vast majority of our citizens to have peace and quiet?

Mr. McNulty: I am sympathetic to the points that the hon. Gentleman makes. In addition to the certification standard and the general noise standard, there are considerations in terms of the planning framework and the other frameworks that need to be taken into account. However, I shall look into the matter further and get back to the hon. Gentleman.

:mad: :yuk: :uhoh:

[Spiney Norman]

When I see intolerance like this voiced by those who are supposed to represent a democratic and tolerant society, I feel sad about where our country is going. I don't ride a Motor cycle, but I don't care if somebody else enjoys riding them. I don't go to church but I support the right of anyone who wants to attend. Am I in a minority? I'd hate to think I am. My old Dad flew two and a half tours as aircrew during WW2 so we could enjoy the freedoms we are clinging onto now. Let's hope the 'looking into the matter', involves putting the question at the bottom of a deep dark drawer and McNulty forgetting where he puts the key!

Spiney

[WorkingHard]

So this an ideal opportunity for AOPA to show what it is made of>Any bets as to how (or if) they will get involved

[Pilgrim101]

>>will have their quality of life diminished by the pilots of some 8,000 light aircraft and, or course, of those "lawnmowers" that take to the skies, and which take so long to get across them. As part of his big conversation, will he please start a debate on the balance...... <<


Take the political gas generator of a pr!ck up on his own point. Write to him and ask him to ban the use hundreds of thousands of all pervasive noisy, smelly lawnmowers first.

Takes my girlfriend effing hours to cut our grass with the Mountfield (Tm) :}

I take it he is pi$$ed off about Old Sarum's fairly protected situation now as an establishment of some historical significance so is venting his petty little spleen at aviation in general to ban it all across the Country ? What next, noisy tonic dispensers in the House of Commons bar ? The poor calibre and self interest lobbying habits of our MP's is a joke.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Is there an opportunity here?


Headlines like:-

- "Light aviators campaign for higher base to controlled airspace so as to reduce noise nuisance to general public"

or

- "Aviators safety evidence supports campaign against development on green belt land"

Might work in our collective favour?

G

[Pilgrim101]

Like the lateral thinking there Ghengis - are you sure you are a real Engineer ? :p

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ah, but I'm not just an Engineer.

G

[Unwell_Raptor]

I find the naivete expressd here difficult to believe.

The MP concerned, who was elected to represent his constituents, is doing exactly that.

Most people do not fly light aircraft.

Is there nobody out there who is willing to acknowledge that light aviation depends on the consent of the (nb) voters down on the ground?

There is no right to fly over others' homes, only a privilege.

This kind of arrogance could do a lot of harm to GA.

[futurshox]

I have such trouble with those pesky flying lawnmowers, don'cha know... They fly over my house all the time....


http://futurshox.net/tmp/lawnmower.jpg

:p ;)

[Pilgrim101]

UR

What a lot of nonsense. This MP is waxing lyrical on removing a fundamental freedom from us and this despite being regulated to the nth degree anyway. Where do you suggest we collectively adapt our behaviour further to accommodate those voters on the ground ?

Just because there are only 8000 of us doesn't mean our rights should be infringed. I meant what I said about Lawnmowers - nothing imposes so much on a summers day than those damn things munching their way through acres of grass for hours at a time at a Night Club decibel level. Start there and let me grow my garden naturally :}

[VP959]

This MP seems to have gone off on a tangent. He has an issue with noise, which is fair enough - I tend to agree with him that the world is getting too noisy.

His logic is flawed though. He complains about what can only be small volumes of noise from private aviation from the little grass strip at EGLS, yet says that his constituents are happy to accept fast jets and helos from nearby EGDM and EGVP. Perhaps the fact that he had/has a strong connection to defence rather colours his stance?

The man clearly seems to have lost his sense of proportion, and as a constituent of his I can say that he has just lost my vote as well................

[LOMCEVAK]

I also am a constituent of Robert Key's, and he has done far more for his constituents on many subjects than most MPs do. However, I do fear that he has picked a tangent to fly off on (no pun intended) with the wording of his question.

The problem at Old sarum is that there are one or two villages nearby who have a vociferous population who enjoy complaining, with their chosen subject being noise from Old Sarum circuit traffic. Many other villages around the airfield (including the one in which I live) make no complaints and appreciate the advantages of having it kept as an airfield rather than turned into yet another industrial estate generating vast amounts of road traffic and a monsterous eyesore.

All that Robert Key was doing was representing the views of a very small minority of his constituents. He may or may not agree with them, but if he did not represent their views he could be accused of dereliction of duty. It is then up to the relevant minister (to whom the question was tabled) to investigate. It is unfortunate that a question relating to a very specific complaint was worded in such a generalised way that it casts criticism on the whole light aircraft industry. Hopefully, this will be referred back as a local planning issue and can then be filed along with all of the other evaluations of this "problem" that have been made in the past. Long live Old Sarum as an active airfield. It is a much valued asset to this part of Wiltshire.

[Irv]

Of course, he is probably oiling a squeaky wheel - how many people have written to him about noise from aircraft? Probably more than zero but not many. How many people have written to him saying the opposite? Probably zero.

However, if it is all due to one idiot in the air constantly and unnecessarily annoying someone on the ground who happens to have the MPs ear (or anything else) within reach, then perhaps someone should arrange a bit of education for the guy in the air. Remember the flying parachute preacher? He launched from there without permission and got done for it. There are some nutters around there.

I'm sure Old Sarum actually had a 'VIP' day once didnt they? - a long time ago - invited "the MP sorts" over and gave them the positive side. They certainly made a lot of different positive efforts in the past rather than sit back and wait for problems.


or... just thought - as his constutuents are in Salisbury, they probably heard that doodlebug that was flying around the Popham microlight fair (30 miles away) the other weekend - now there's something that will get mircolights banned! :rolleyes:

[VP959]

Thankfully the JetBug is just one of Bens promotional creations, rather than a serious production microlight. Somehow I think it'd have a real problem getting through the microlight noise test if it had to......... :D

Old Sarum is plagued by a small handful of vociferous protestors, led, IIRC, by a retired officer who purchased one of the new houses adjacent to the field.

The other problem is that it appears all light aircraft noise complaints in the area get directed at OS, yet there is a problem in the area from a Yak (I think) that insists on doing prolonged aeros at weekends. It doesn't fly out of OS as far as I know, I think it's based at the Bustard Flying Club at Boscombe, but they refuse to respond to requests for info.

Perhaps one positive thing might be to try and persuade this all party group to get the CAA to relax the rules on the fitting of silencers?

[Phoenix09]

Perhaps one positive thing might be to try and persuade this all party group to get the CAA to relax the rules on the fitting of silencers?I thought that things were easing up on the silencer front now. I know that all the club aircraft at the West London Aero Club are now fitted with silencers and they are also currently trialling a four bladed prop on a Warrior to reduce the noise pattern even further.

More information on silencers can be found here (http://www.wlac.co.uk/silencers.htm)

They aren't cheap but they do seem to be fairly effective.

[High Wing Drifter]

Pilgrim has it sussed!

I live near Blackbushe and Farnborough:

1) Light aircraft are barely noticable despite living near a busy GA field. The duration of the noise is brief and occasional.

2) Jet aircraft are barely noticable despite living near a moderately used commercial field. Duration of noise is very brief.

3) Army Chinooks are very very very loud and occasional.

4) Lawnmowers ruin about 50% of my relax time in the garden. People with petrol mowers and small gardens are the scurge of suburbia IMHO. Once one stops, then the next one starts and persists for another half an hour. Grrrrr!

5) During the airshow...well that's another story. Can't wait!

However, seeing it on the flip side. Aircraft are noisy and living next to a runway probably isn't fun. With house prices being what they are many people can't really choose where they can live so some consideration must be given in the form of strict noise abatement routes. I think it is just that new aircraft are subjected to noise constraints. But it is obviously impractical to deal with older a/c.

Perhaps one positive thing might be to try and persuade this all party group to get the CAA to relax the rules on the fitting of silencers
If that were possible then it would be the best solution.

[Irv]

On the rare days that are sunny and visibility slightly down and I am free to be in the garden (3 logical 'ands' there), living at a VRP or Class D, I always get to experience the noise from the aircraft orbitting for 10 minutes whose pilot doesn't understand that he/she still wants a VFR clearance rather than the SVFR they actually asked for. I feel like calling the tower and saying 'I'd like to complain about the groundschool that pilot orbitting Romsey at 1500' has had before getting his licence -ask him who he/she trained with' :rolleyes:

Thankfully the JetBug is just one of Bens promotional creations, rather than a serious production microlight.
Well if I were in the microlight world, the last thing I'd want at one of my premier show-off events was that! It's a bit like having a parent open day garden party for admissions a private junior school and allowing the local pervert flasher in with his raincoat because 'he is, in his own special way, a part of school life' :rolleyes:

yet there is a problem in the area from a Yak
Ah yes, 'Gorbachev's Revenge' The scene: The Kremlin, dateline early 1990s:
"Mr President, the West seems to have won, we no longer have the power to destroy their military bases'
"That may be, Boris, but we can still close down their small airfields, I authorise you to use the Yaks - start selling them over there and it's only a matter of time...' :E

[ThePirateKing]

High Wing Drifter,

I also live between Blackbushe and Farnborough. I take great delight from being able to watch aircraft downwind at Blackbushe from my sofa.

I spent all day yesterday (Sunday 23rd) in the garden and about 10 light aircraft (mainly PA28 types) came over enroute to/from Farnborough, and once I even rushed in to grab my camera.

I completely agree with you about the jet noise from Farnborough. There's next to none and on the occassions I do hear it (like, standing in Farnborough B&Q carpark yesterday), I love it.

Perhaps I should write to my MP and tell him how wonderful light aircraft are...

TPK:ok:

[VP959]

Interesting view Irv.

If I've got this right, then it's OK for a manufacturer/importer/agent to have a noisy Vedneyev (sp?) powered monster as an eyecatcher at a GA show, but it's somehow not all right for a microlight manufacturer to have a jet powered hanglider for the same purpose.

Seems odd to me...........

[Irv]

I'm analogue, not digital or binary about it.

It's serious, a sign that a senior politician taking up the matter can't be ignored. He is senior, he's been around a bit. I just think we all need to be very careul to protect the future for our "hobby" or even jobs, and step back and realise the perception from outside. This helps so we don't make ourselves easy targets for politicians to show how they are reacting to 'public demand' - (public being one or two of the public). It's election 12 months remember! Look what happened to the sport of pistol shooting. (not my scene at all, but that doesn't stop me learning lessons from it)

With all the 'green' issues coming to the fore in the past 10 - 15 years, that was the worst time to release the Yaks. It was also the worst time to have had regulations which made pilots give in and take silencers off C172s imported from Germany just to put
a 'G' on the side. It's been the worst time for a lot of green issues.

You only have to speak to German small airfield owners and residents to find out where it could go when a very small minority living around an airfield add 'environmental-speak' buzz phrases into their numerous and tireless pursuit of a politician's ear, knowing he/she will everntually tire and do something to get rid of them.

In our minds we probably dream of a US model, but we forget we are all so cramped in for physical space and we do not have the same distances to travel on business which makes local communities need a local airfield for economic reasons in the US.

But as someone else inferred, the Yaks have one thing on their side - they b:mad:r off quickly, leaving the people who love the sound of their engine reasonably satisfied they heard it, and those reasonable ones who don't have an ear for it just happy it flew away, but my point is that there are some people living around airfields who have little to occupy their time and are looking for a mission or crusade in their retirement. All of a sudden politicians want to show green credentials and suddenly noiser aircraft than before start appearing. (of course you don't notice quieter aircraft along with them!)

People are saying the jets are quiet - look how they've been forced to quieten down over a time period. Politicians know they need large jets and the Heathrows and Gatwicks - but they don't especially think they need light aircraft and the Pophams and Old Sarums.

A neighbour incensed by aircraft noise might be engaged in reasonable debate by others. However, noise is hardly a suitable word for describing the audio output from a doodlebug and this is all at micro speeds and low heights - and if I were exhibiting the level of airmanship I saw from one Doodlebug that day, I'd want to be flying something extremely quiet and stealth like at the time!

[bar shaker]

Irv

Apart from the bit about the jetbug, I completely agree. Incidentally, the engine on the jet bug is a model aircraft engine (albeit a f***ing big one!). As VP said, you can't buy one and I don't see any harm. A bit like living on Sarfend seafront, looking out of your window on May Bank Holiday and thinking that every flying aircraft is a Tornado with the burners on. Its once a year, for the love of god.

I live near Hanningfield reservoir. On any weekend day that I am not flying, I will see a GA or microlights transit approx one every minute. The area is a very popular training ground for all of the local schools and is also major waypoint for anyone heading up/down the east of England.

Whilst I lay there on my lounger, watching Mrs Shaker pull weeds out of the flower beds, beer glass in one hand crustless cumcumber sandwich in the other, I sometimes wonder how others feel about the noise. On a typical Sunday, you will see anything from a PA28 (loud) to a C150 (very loud and slow) to a microlight (not very loud but very slow) to a Provost (damn loud, very quick). Occasionally you will get some Yaks in the area (F loud and go round and around in loops for a bit).

From my sun lounger I have sometimes considered that we may not be very socialable... and then someone has started a Mountfield, or a Flymo, or started drilling something, or used an electric wood saw. OMG. Suddenly anything in the air is inaudible and my enjoyment of a Lycoming at 2600rpm or 700bhp of Russia's finest has been snatched from me.

If anything, lets shut down B&Q before we shut down any airfields.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Now shutting down B&Q firmly gets my vote, and it has nothing to do with noise, and everything to do with Mrs.G and her love of my doing DIY getting in the way of my weekend PPLing.

G

[VP959]

G, Shutting down B & Q would deny a certain well-known wooden kit plane enthusiast (of our mutual acquaintance) his primary source of spares and raw materials...........:-)

[sycamore]

Bar Shaker, just how does Mrs. B-S manage to pull weeds if she`s holding a beer in one hand and crustless cucumber sarny in t`other ??.........:confused:

[wonko the sane]

Throwing in me pennies worth...

I went for a very pleasant walk and picnic at Bewl water, Kent on Sunday. Nice place.

Now, there's an airstrip just to the North by a couple of miles, and, being the biggest bit of water for quite some distance, it's obviously a popular waypoint. Add to that that it was a glorious day, and so there were a lot of aircraft around - in the region of one every couple of minutes. Being, in general, at 2000ft+ they were a distant drone rather than a racket, but the sound was always there, and so you can imagine that people out for complete peace and quiet could be irritated.

However, in my opinion, the real noise was the racket of Englands finest gene pool specimens taking their myriad offspring for their day time shout-oriented activities. Arriving, I might add, in their 3 litre 4x4s. I'm sure they were oblivious to their noise, and I heard a number of them comment on the aircraft. I'm amazed they could hear them at all over their whining.

What am I saying ? I'm saying I understand the complaints, but these things work both ways.

Oh, and someone was practicing some aeros in their bi-plane on the other side of the lake. I think he was having far too much fun to be allowed ! Lucky B@stard.

[Pilgrim101]

Getting back to MP's,

It seems that every minority has a champion in the Houses Of Parliament except us private aviators. Mr Key's hobby horse is clearly identified as noise so let's just point out to him the relativity of imposed noise levels of Inner City Traffic, Articulated Lorries negotiating ridiculously narrow village roads, Skidoos and motor boats on our lakes and seaside beaches, Lawnmowers, Car Stereo systems thumping the windscreen in and out on some spotty teenagers Ford Focus with the windows down and CO and CO2 spraying from the five inch bore exhaust.... There's more but you get my drift ? The "freedom" to inflict all the above is certainly there but in my humble opinion, most GA Pilots of my acqaintance are very neighbourly and aware of the NIMBY factor.

I doubt if a light aircraft figures too highly on the decibel rating of our inner cities and towns all across the Country. Joe Public doesn't look up very often. So that leaves the Country Folk who have to switch off their Power Drills, Sanders, Electric Saws, ride-on Mowers, Combine Harvesters, Tractors and various other bits of farm machinery so they can rush out to listen to the fleeting putt putt of a Microlight (At just what maximum decibel level from 1501' / 501' ?) and prepare their CAA complaint form accordingly. :8 :8

[Kolibear]

New cars have to meet a legal drive-by noise requirement before they can go on sale, in the same way that they have to meet emissions targets too. It would be very nice( if infeasible to measure) if they had to meet the noise requirement as part of their MOT.

Does anyone have any idea what nternationally agreed noise certification standard our aircraft have to meet?

And if
This standard was tightened for aircraft certificated after 1999 what is the current standard?

Interesting how when The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Tony McNulty) was asked "What plans he has to reduce noise pollution from light recreational aircraft?", essentail, his answer was "None"

[yakker]

The other problem with noise is, if the NIMBY's manage to close or severly restrict flying at one airfield. What happens? All the resident aircraft move elsewhere incresing the noise nuisance there. They then suffer from another NIMBY, eventually no airfields left to fly from.

[VP959]

As far as Microlights are concerned, they have had to comply with noise certification (BCAR Section N) since about 1984. The test is conducted by the CAA as part of the approval process and all microlights have a noise certificate as a result. The test is pretty tough, certainly the majority of GA types would probably not pass.

Here are the actual noise limits for microlights:

Single Seat pre 1984 - 80 Db (a)
Two Seat pre 1984 - 84 Db (a)
Single Seat post 1984 - 76 Db (a)
Two Seat post 1984 - 80 Db (a)

[bar shaker]

Sycamore

Mrs Shaker was nearly as mortified that you thought she drank beer as I was when I read that VP and Genghis' mate buys timber from B&Q to build aircraft.

In my seriously limited experience of buying timber from B&Q, it is neither straight nor dry... meaning it is even less straight a few days after you have bought it :uhoh:

Someone famous, whose name is sadly vacant from my brain, said that anyone who put themselves up for election to government should be, by definition, disqualified.

Or something like that ;)

I'm using too many commas, aren't I?

[VP959]

B - S,

He doesn't buy timber from there, AFAIK, just other "spares and raw materials"..............

[Mike Cross]

Pilgrim 101 saidGetting back to MP's,
It seems that every minority has a champion in the Houses Of Parliament except us private aviators.

A bit too hasty with your generalisations

Lembit Opik MP (http://www.montgomery.libdems.org/Lembit.htm)
"On April 13th 1998, Lembit came close to death in a near fatal paragliding accident. He fell about 80 feet onto a welsh mountain in his constituency, and broke his back in 12 places, as well as his ribs, sternum and jaw. This near death experience has caused him to tkae a keen interest in the Spinal Injuries Association, of which he is a member.

Despite the accident, Lembit does continue with his interest in aviation. He has a pilot's licence and speaks for British Gliding in the House of Commons. Lembit also rides motorcycles and lobbies for the interests of bikers when the opportunity arises.

James Provan MEP (http://www.europarl.tory.org.uk/content/jpcv.html)
"Enjoys outdoor activities, walking, country pursuits, sailing, flying"

Gerald Howarth MP (http://www.conservatives.com/people/person.cfm?PersonID=5115)
"Gerald's interests are in aerospace, aviation, defence, media, education, and privatisation. He has jointly written No Turning Back (1985). He enjoys recreations such as flying, squash, tennis, DIY, family."

John Wilkinson MP (http://www.conservatives.com/people/person.cfm?PersonID=4674)
"Professionally, John Wilkinson has always worked in aviation, first as a pilot in the RAF and then for the British Aircraft Corporation and latterly, in various posts in aircraft sales, management, air transport, aviation consultancy and flying instruction.

He was awarded the Hilal I Quaid Azan decoration by the President of Pakistan in 1989, the Cross of the Land of Mary by the President of Estonia in 1999 and elected a Companion of the Royal Aeronautical Society in 1998."

Anne McIntosh MP (http://www.conservatives.com/people/person.cfm?PersonID=4558)
Asked several parliamentary questions in 2002 on behalf of one of her constituents who is a pilot, on the subject of the problems of the new NATS NOTAM website.


Mike

[High Wing Drifter]

Mike,

I guess Pilgrim's right then. PPLs are in the vast minority :}

However, I did read somewhere that the largest spectator event after football in this country are Airshows! Not quite the same thing but interesting.

[Pilgrim101]

Mike

I stand by my statement. Anti aviation / GA feelings are definitely exploited by NIMBY's and I certainly don't see a tremendous swathe of support for GA in the House - do you ? (Despite your fairly short, cursory list of MP's with "an interest in flying"). If it was expedient and helpful in the promotion of their ego trip careers in politics they would cut us dead. I have met quite a few politicians in a previous incarnation and none of them impressed me with anything but ambition and an inate ability to rub people up the wrong way, and a marked proclivity to jump on a bandwagon with minimum background briefing.

I doubt very much if my MP would represent my request for less interference and bureaucracy in my chosen pastime. However, if I phoned to complain about aircraft noise, I genuinely think I would get a hearing because of the prejudice which exists (and is compounded by fawning acceptance of anything "green" promulgated by the bicycle clip fascists who are anti any petrol burning device.

:E

[Genghis the Engineer]

Sir Patrick McNair-Wilson, formerly Conservative MP for Itchen-North (that's Southampton to you), is patron of the "Aviation for Paraplegics and Tetraplegics Trust" at Old Sarum. I believe that he still flies a Streak Shadow, which he certainly used to routinely fly straight over the channel, load up with cheap wine, and fly back again.

A friend of mine once asked him whether this didn't worry him in a permit aircraft with an uncertified engine. He commented "Look, I'm a tory MP, in a government with a majority of one - they aren't going to leave me out there".



Incidentally, Norman Tebbit, now Lord Tebbit, is an ex airline pilot and has a good track record of being aviation friendly.

G

[Pilgrim101]

Mike/Genghis

Whoops. I had forgotten Patrick - what an impeccable gentleman pilot. Made his acquaintance at Old Sarum some years ago, when he flew a lovely azure blue Shadow from there. Sadly, not too many of his calibre around.:8

[Birdwatcher]

Hi Pilgrim

Like you, I have a profound distrust of politicians in general but there are always exceptions to rules.

I can't speak for most of Mike's list, since I don't know them, but I did have the pleasure of interviewing Lembit a few years back. Having watched him make a carefully-designed paper plane in the House of Commons restaurant as his lunch went cold, then test-fly it in the corridor outside, I think his interest is genuine. I believe it extends to considerably more useful activities than building paper planes, too.

If I were one of those MPs whose good intentions you've just questioned, I'd be a bit disheartened to see a constituency I supported slagging me off. And I'd certainly be less likely to help out next time I was asked.

Shooting ourselves in the foot, maybe?

Cheers

Birdwatcher

[Pilgrim101]

BW Nope,

Not in the democracy I've been fighting for ! If any MP was prepared to take umbrage at my remarks and eff up any GA approach then they just prove my point. MP's should be answerable to us, not the other way round.

Just tell me what the UK public perception and the standing of our MP's/Politicians is and exactly who is in need of some navel contemplation ? The poor wee souls should be used to criticism by now surely.

The thought that MP's have anything other than a rawhide skin is also quite laughable. If they are as vindictive as you might be suggesting then they should be in another line of work.

[Birdwatcher]

Hi Pilgrim

Seems reasonable to me to suggest that people are more likely to help you if you're nice to them, or at least, don't attack them. But I guess we'll have to agree to differ on this one.

Bye

Birdwatcher

[Pilgrim101]

Oh yeah,

and just who do you think you're talking to ? :} :}

[Mike Cross]

Somewhat jaundiced view being aired here.

The list was cursory because I wasn't about to spend a lot of time doing research. It took very little effort to find a few politicians who thought an interest in aviation was worth putting in their biography.

Anne McIntosh, MP for the Vale of York asked a number of Parliamentary Questions at the request of one of her constituents, a PPL who posts on here. These resulted in the Chairmen of NATS and the CAA having to write letters as well as the Secretary of State for Transport. The pressure that was brought to bear was very instrumental in getting the problems with the NOTAM website sorted. I wrote to her as I was involved with the issue and she took care to ensure that all of the correspondence generated was copied to me.

As her husband is a Director of Delta Airlines I think you can take it that she is pro-aviation.

I fully accept that the NIMBY's have the bigger voice, but that's what a democracy is about and I for one am glad I live in one.

It is curious isn't it how there is a seemingly insatiable appetite for air travel and the export of jobs subsidised by tax-free fuel for holidays yet very few of these same people want airports? We poor bimblers burning our highly taxed fuel must form a very small proportion of the total number of people airborne in UK airspace at any time. I believe the forecast was for some 220,000 to pass through Gatwick today.

Mike

[Pilgrim101]

Thanks Mike

Point taken and I am sure a little more research on my part too might turn up some more GA supporters in the House. My own cynicism of politicians is however quite justified having seen them at their most arrogant and self serving, when their guard was down out of the public eye.

As a Private Pilot I still see no real substantive political support for GA; on the contrary I see greater interference and bureaucracy creeping into every walk of life under this Government in particular.

Our lobbying power is of course limited by the number of votes we represent in society and this may have some bearing on the dearth of such support from MP's, No ? :E

[Mike Cross]

Have to agree with you. I too have a slightly cynical view of politicians in general. However as with all things there are exceptions to the rule. Don't know whether it's the UK in particular or worldwide but we appear to delight in the negative rather than celebrating the positive. It's therefore much easier for a moaning voice to be heard than a happy one and it's the voters who call the tune to which politicians dance.

Of course our dear CAA did the industry no favours with an attitude to noise reduction that saw people having to take silencers off of imported aircraft before they could go on the G reg. If you go to some of the gliding sites and listen to their tugs with 4 bladed props and silencers you can see (hear) what is possible. Our regulators seem incapable of devising a system that encourages innovation without severe cost penalties. Too often the "safety" card is played with inadequate justification. The ongoing debate about hi-viz at GA airfields is a simple example.

The introduction of Star Annuals is another. CAA discovered that aircraft were being signed off, by engineers licensed by the CAA, when they were not in compliance with their C of A (unauthorised mods, AD's not complied with etc). Instead of finding out why this was happening and fixing it, which would have cost them money, they just introduced the Star Annual where the aircraft had to be taken to an M3 every 3 years, neatly shifting the cost for the failings of the airworthines sytem on to the owner rather than those responsible for it.

Mike

[Genghis the Engineer]

Of course our dear CAA did the industry no favours with an attitude to noise reduction that saw people having to take silencers off of imported aircraft before they could go on the G reg.
Now it's no secret that I'm not the CAA's greatest fan - but I really wish this piece of oft-repeated rubbish would be put to bed. CAA could not approve ONE silencer installation, because a German company with a secrecy obsession refused to provide them with copies of the evidence (already provided to the German authorities) that showed it was safe. I know the chap at CAA who was forced into this decision and he bent over backwards to try and approve that particular silencer - then got vilified for it.

There is much to criticise CAA for (Shadow groundings would be a good start this month, and if the hi-viz jacket thing is really something to do with CAA, that as well), but declining to approve an engine mod because the designer of that mod had refused to prove to them that it was safe, is not a hanging offence - criticise the nameless paranoid German who wouldn't provide some simple Engineering reports where it was him or her to blame.

Mind you, developing new aeronautical products in the UK has become almost impossible and unafordable and something does need to be done about that.

G

[Pilgrim101]

If we could just make aircraft at GA fields more noisy and conspicuous, then we might not need the Hi Viz jackets ?;)

Are we in danger of "vehemently agreeing" the fundamental issue though, which is the dabbling faceless bureaucratic interference in a liberating pastime/sport/vocation which is populated by the Country's most responsible, highly trained and motivated (rich :E ) people ?:8

[Pat Malone]

Worth mentioning that the Enterprise Minister, Nigel Griffiths, got his PPL(H) last year and has joined AOPA and the Helicopter Club of Great Britain.

[surely not]

How many of the pilots who complain on here about a lack of representation are paid up members of organisations such as AOPA or the PFA?

I seem to remember an article where these organisations were trying to increase their membership to improve their lobbying power. Of course I realise that to join an organisation requires positive action by the person and it is easier just to complain.

I'm not a member of either, but then I'm not a pilot either. :D

[Pilgrim101]

I don't see the relevance but I am a fully paid up member of AOPA, PFA and BMAA so I can complain to all three ;) I fly a nice little biplane and a 3 axis microlight when I get the chance and always stick to the rules :8 :E

I become a civilian again next month and intend to fly frequently in the UK but I confess it is becoming more and more difficult to enjoy what with the reams of regulation in our so called crowded airspace and the pressures on lovely little airfields all over the Country from a very few Nimby's with big mouths and an all too receptive authority disposed to nanny interference by its very political nature and so called green credentials. I can't help thinking there's a wee bit of jealousy in there too ?

Just where my complaints get me is another moot point though because without a critical mass of tens or hundreds of thousands of PPL voters there is only limited scope for them to lobby effectively about the ludicrous jobsworth mentality and downright amateurish interference in GA from the faceless ones.

I have seen recent evidence of "what if" scenarios being dreamed up to ground a perfectly safe aeroplane and if the same logic was applied across the board then every light aircraft in the Country should have been grounded on similar anticipated accident "safety" grounds. Lots of bent nosewheels, reprofiled props and shock loaded engines etc etc every year but thankfully very few casualties.

There's lots of sky up there with no speed cameras and very little scope for Big Brother to f:mad: k us around provided we are responsible and practice the airmanship we are all so proud of. Maybe that's what pi$$es the "ruling class" off ?