Parachute when aerobatting?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Following on from the 'Chipmunk seat' thread, how many on here wear a 'chute when aerobatting? I used to in the Yak, mainly because it was there and formed the seat base. We dont in the Chippy, but I wonder if we should? (We only do simple aeros in the Chippy, so unlikely to overstress it).

Thoughts please?

SSD

[FNG]

I have taken to wearing my parachute (a lightweight National backpack) all the time (OK, not in the bath). It's not just the wings falling off that I'm thinking of, but also midairs (glider pilots in glider vs glider collisions often bail-out successfully). Given that aerobatic aircraft would be easier to jump out of than most tourers, it seems to me a good idea to wear a chute whilst flying, although if the engine failed I'd still try to land the thing. Could be a lot of clobber if also life-jacketed whilst crossing water.

PS: Evo: tomorrow, I'm bringing a spare for you, but it's a 200 year old seat parachute that makes you walk like a spavined baboon.

[yakker]

I agree with FNG, if you have a mid-air or aircraft break up you can at least bail out. The military wear them all the time, and not just while aerobatting. I think it makes sense, no matter what others say. But have a bail out height if it all goes wrong, the military was 'if we havent recovered by 3000' bail out'.

[Evo]

PS: Evo: tomorrow, I'm bringing a spare for you, but it's a 200 year old seat parachute that makes you walk like a spavined baboon.


Parachutes? You're obviously thinking of letting me have a go. A "one careful owner" parachute is fine, even if the careful owner was Lavoisier.

Anyway, that's the way the ex-RAF hotshots all walk, isn't it? :ooh:

[TonyR]

I think its a good idea, but it is important to be very comfortable when flying aeros.

Also it would be difficult to exit from some aircraft type.

I used to wear a chute when flying a jump aircraft but it never worked really well with the cessna seats.

I think it was last year when a Skydiver hit the tail of a Cessana Caravan after leaving the aircraft, the pilot lost control and had to "jump" the pilot got down safely but the guy who hit the tail died.

[Rallye Driver]

Like FNG, I wear one where practical - in the Yak and Bulldog - and also a bone dome.

I had a very close shave with a C152 last year, which hadn't seen me (I recognised the aircraft and spoke to the instructor later in the day), and despite my best efforts to avoid it came very close indeed. At least I would have had a chance to get out if the worst had happened.

RD

[englishal]

Hmm...interesting post. I would when doing Aero's, without a doubt. You've got me thining now, what about on "normal" trips? Doesn't sound like a bad idea, you never know when you're going to have your wings clipped by someone else at FL60 while in IMC.

Whether you'd get out or not is another matter. Maybe something like a TB10/TB20 you'd be ok, or even a 172. Doubtful in a PA28, but its got to be better than nothing.....Although I'd only ever use it in anger during a structural failure (flying into a CB might do that as well, one of my biggest fears, embedded thunderstorms).

EA

[Croqueteer]

When things go wrong, it happens very quickly. I was practicing for a comp in my pitts 1000ft above comp height when I entered an inverted spin off a stall turn, because I was trying to keep a ballsed up figure "looking right". and I still don't know what I was doing wrong during the attempted recovery, because I was thinking all the time, but when I bailed out at about 1200ft I had the wrong rudder on, as shown by the gash on my left leg as it hit the panel on the way out. If you are going earthward at about 4000ft/min in an upside down spin, with only a wood in sight, it is difficult to explain to the bar-room experts why you did not try this or that. I thought I was a fairly experienced areobatic pilot, but after years of reading flight safety mags like "Air Clues" when in the RAF, and civil accident reports, I was conditioned to jump out if things went wrong. How many spinning fatalities have you read about when a parachute was worn and not used? Please wear a chute for aeros, and also if the aircraft seat is designed for them like the Stampe or the Chipmunk, and especially as the Chipmunk has not got the best of spinning records. Before anyone brings height into the discussion, my american ex airforce seat pack chute is reckoned to work from about 200ft if you have airspeed. It is also essential to keep in training, usually done by the guy that packs you chute at your local parachute centre, and by this I mean training done at ground level. Don't turn an insurance write-off into a wake!

[stiknruda]

I wear one in my Pitts at all times but you just have to look at the quality of my welding to realise why!

Croq - I know who you are!

Stik

[Flyin'Dutch']

SSD,

I would like to ask the question: 'Why not?'

It's a bit like crossing the Channel without a lifejacket/raft.

I would just hate ever to be in the position having the time to reflect and think I wish I had!

It may well be that you do 'gentle' aerobatics but your predecessor's activities may have pushed the limit.

Ciao

FD

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Never used to wear one when flying aeros in the UK. In France you have to wear one by law, and I find it quite reassuring.

To re-affirm what Croqueteer said, things which seem easy sometimes aren't when you don't know what's happening to the aeroplane. I learnt inverted spin recoveries to the point where I could do them safely (didn't like them), but when I entered an incipient inverted spin in a Pitts S2A, it was a good thing there was an instructor in front to recover. It was very disorienting.

[FNG]

Reading the thread about engines falling off leads me to wonder when private pilots generally stopped wearing parachutes. Did this come with the advent of the metal trainer/tourers of the 50s, with their car-like interiors and doors, or a little earlier?

[bcfc]

Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

Can't argue with that, but one has to make a value judgement here. Otherwise you might as well say that everyone in a light aircraft should always wear a 'chute 'just in case'. The logic is unarguable, but wouldn't it be a tad OTT?

So it comes down to:
Does aerobatting a Chippie (loops, rolls, stall turns only) increase the risk of loss of the aeroplane sufficiently to justify the cost and inconvienience of supplying, maintaining, and wearing 'chutes?

Also, I often carry an inexperienced passenger. Here's a moral dilemma for you: you get into an inadvertant spin that seems not to want to recover following standard recovery procedure. You throw open the canopy, and shout to your (well briefed) passsenger to jump. They freeze (I can almost guarantee they will). You still have 3000 feet, and it's still spinning. But there a few more things you know you could try to un-spin it.

Do you stay to try something to save the situation, or do you jump. If you jump, survive, and the passenger dies in the crash of the aeroplane, how will you feel?

SSD

[Rod1]

So, mid air collisions and loosing control in aerobatics have been given as reasons, what about fire?

Do you all wear flying suits and boots too?

Rod1

[FNG]

That's a legitimate question. Alex Henshaw bailed out of his first aeroplane because it was on fire. We've often discussed the flying suit thing, inconclusively. On one view, even spam canners should wear fireproof kit, but it's unlikely that this will happen. I have a nomex suit, but hardly ever wear it, although I do wear gloves, usually wear a flying jacket, and wouldn't go flying in, say, a fleece.

[yakker]

SSD

"Can't argue with that, but one has to make a value judgement here. Otherwise you might as well say that everyone in a light aircraft should always wear a 'chute 'just in case'. The logic is unarguable, but wouldn't it be a tad OTT?"

Do car drivers wear seat belts, motorcyclists wear crash helmets, just in case? Whats wrong with flying suits and parachutes. after all its your life.

"Do you stay to try something to save the situation, or do you jump. If you jump, survive, and the passenger dies in the crash of the aeroplane, how will you feel?"

Upset, but still breathing, after all you gave a thorough briefing. I'm sure if you were in an aircraft and the pilot ejected you would follow bl**dy quickly.

[ShyTorque]

Just seems common sense to me. Given the choice, I would rather spend money on a 'chute than on an increase in life insurance premiums.

It also gives you the option of leaving the aircraft if the terrain isn't suitable for a forced landing, or if you can't see the ground and don't know.

[paulo]

There's probably quite a few people who'd use them - at least for single or two seaters - but for the cost. (Daft, arguably). Assuming you trust the 'keeper' (your group, your club, whoever) then why do we all need our own chutes?

And if we don't, it's no longer a two grand outlay (for a 2 seater pilot, say), but something you could rent for a fiver a go or whatever. Some people might balk at that aswell, but I'd guess there'd be more takeup if we didn't all have to go out and buy 1 rig per pilot, 1 rig per potential passenger.

[Lowtimer]

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Going out for a 1000 foot mooch around in the Cub or Moth, I don't find the absence of a parachute troubling, nor do I in a PA-28, which I don't think would be at all easy to get out of in an emergency, even if the seat could accommodate me and a parachute.

Don't feel bothered flying the Firefly around gently without a parachute, but I'm not going to spin it without out. If I'm flying the Yak I always wear a parachute these days. And in anything without a PA-28 style saloon-car interior (Cub, Moth, Yak, Firefly etc) I do also wear a proper flying suit and a bone dome. Perhaps I should in the PA-28 as well, perhaps I'm being inconsistent.

I think Yakker makes a very good point about passenger briefings needing to include the use of the parachute, and the instructions you will give. This is what you get when you fly in a military aeroplane, and it does mean you need to spend longer working on the briefing and delivering it. Pax briefings for the non-type-experienced have to be a lot more thorough for tandem cockpits in any case, as you can't necessarily help the other person in-flight, or see what they're doing. For example, I always make a passenger new to the Yak practice opening and closing the canopy to its various settings while I'm watching, just so that we both know they can do it properly.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Pax briefings for the non-type-experienced have to be a lot more thorough for tandem cockpits in any case, as you can't necessarily help the other person in-flight, or see what they're doing. For example, I always make a passenger new to the Yak practice opening and closing the canopy to its various settings while I'm watching, just so that we both know they can do it properly.

I completely agree with this, and it's exactly what I do. But if the worst happens, I don't think most would jump if ordered; at least not until it's too late (you probaly havn't got even seconds to spare if it really happens).

Not than I'm advocating not using 'chutes - like I said at the beginning, I wonder if we should in the Chippie. I just want to hear all the arguments, both ways;) .

SSD

[Rallye Driver]

Yakker and Lowtimer: both make excellent points.

In the Bulldog, the POH recommends bailing out over water as opposed to ditching. In the Yak if you don't recover from an out of control manouevre by 3000 feet you bail out, front seat first.

So, a thorough PAX briefing is always necessary, and, I can imagine a bail out isn't easy unless inverted. But a wearing a parachute at least gives you the option.

Parachutes have finite packing limits, so I wear one whenever practical.

I know a PA28 isn't ideal for the P1 to get out in any emergency, but even then I wear flying boots, long trousers and long sleeved shirt - you never know when something "interesting" may happen.

RD :uhoh:

[FNG]

Making parachutes available for rental by clubs might be an idea. Glider clubs and skydiving outfits do this, although in the latter case, of course, there is far greater expertise in packing and handling chutes than would ordinarily be available at a flying club. There would always be the worry "what has someone done with this parachute?" I treat mine quite gingerly, being careful where I put it down etc, and have even thought paranoid thoughts about leaving it on a chair at a club whilst I am elsewhere. Rented ones might be stood on, used to soak up coffee etc.

As for safety kit in general, each sport has a variable culture as to what people wear. Forty years ago, few amateur riders wore hard hats, now almost all do, and some wear back protection. In skiing and snowboarding, it is becoming more common to see adults wearing helmets (and even body armour off-piste). In flying, things have gone the other way. It seems that private flyers until about the 1950s often wore flying kit, but now generally do not. The parallel with driving is obvious: Mr Toad in his roadster wore a driving coat, gloves and goggles, although mainly for protection from the elements. Old aeroplanes were of course colder and oilier than modern ones, so the kit was practical quite apart from safety considerations.


PS: Croqueteer, well done. Did you get a Caterpillar tie?

[High Wing Drifter]

Lowtimer mentioned a bone-dome above. Considering the number of head injuries that arise from forced landings, I wonder if there is any merit in carrying some cycling helmets in the cabin and only donning them when a PFL situation arises. I suppose one could wear them, or better a pukka helmet, all the time I wouldn't want to do that.

[FNG]

Scrabbling to find and put on a bike helmet whilst setting up for a forced landing (NB there is no P in this situation) does not sound very enticing, particularly with headsets on. I am probably going to buy a couple of the DC plastic shell helmets (although Wide Body sensibly suggests that I go for the full kevlar dome).

[Evo]

Better watch out for AerBabe if you're going to be strutting around North Weald in a flying suit, parachute and bone-dome... :uhoh:

[FNG]

I think you'll find that to be the standard kit-issue for North Weald tractor drivers after the recent risk assessment by the Council's Safety Nazi department.

[ShyTorque]

With regard to pax briefing and worrying about whether or not they would actually jump:

I used to finish my pre-flight abandonment brief on the RAF Bulldog by saying that if in flight he / she heard the words "JUMP, JUMP, JUMP!" but wasn't sure what I said, I had the words " FOLLOW" and "ME" written in white paint on the soles of my boots.

On reaching the aircraft, a passenger always had to carry out a practice abandonment drill before being allowed to fly.

[FNG]

I love the story of the "Bulldog cabriolet", where the stude jumped out of the spinning Bulldog on orders from the instructor, who flew it home topless after the thing righted itself on the departure of the student.

[LowNSlow]

The Cessna Aerobat has removable seat cushions to accommodate a parachute. It also has a big red handle by each door that when pulled removes the hinge pins from the doors. This suggests to me that one might find it impossible to open the doors of the average spamcan in flight thus rendering the wearing of a parachute irrelevant.

[ShyTorque]

The student should have jettisoned the canopy iaw the safety brief but just slid it fully back instead and then jumped.

The canopy stayed on but the QFI was subsequently able to recover from the spin and fly back to base, leaving a bemused stude to walk home alone!

There was another spinning acccident sometime afterwards where the pilots both departed from the aircraft but the QFI tragically fell out of his 'chute harness on the way down.

The BOI attributed this to the fact that on some UAS units the 'chutes were left in the aircraft for the next occupant. It was thought that the QFI may have made a cognitive error and inadvertently turned his QRF box to "unlock" during his exit from the seat harness, and accidentally bumped the box on his way out of the aircraft, releasing it.

I always climbed out taking my 'chute with me every time I left the aircraft, to prevent any chance of programming this type of error into my brain. I then returned to the aircraft to replace the 'chute in the seat.

As far as I was concerned, every exit should be an emergency egress practice, rather than the required once a month drill, especially as we were doing aeros and spinning on a regular basis. Obviously, I couldn't practice jettisoning the canopy each time.

These two incidents, where the emergency drill is so close to the normal drill, show how an error can be built in by flawed human response programming

[englishal]

Wouldn't it be better if all light aircraft were fitted with a ballistic parachute system? At least then you don't have to worry about your pax following you, and if you have people in the back, it is doubtful that any P1 would abandon them ;)

EA

[Wide-Body]

Having read the last two deployment reports at least one was a get out of jail free card for stupidity. As my other half put it an escape from the Darwin theory. The other was only slightly better.

Wide

[yakker]

Lowtimer said "I also wear a proper flying suit and a bone dome" This gives us another problem, anyone turning up in an ex-RAF flying suit, bone dome, white gloves and parachute is immediately thought of as a Top Gun wannabee. Is this why pilots are reluctant to wear these things, and risk their own safety because of others opinions?

[FNG]

A fair point, yakker. Would you rather look stupid or be stupid? (the same is said re hi viz, but that's another story, where the safety issues are perhaps rather different). I dont know why the sight of me climbing out of a well known aerobatic type wearing a parachute (green gloves yes, but no hat and no flight suit) should have occasioned such comment at an airfield I visited some weeks ago. Perhaps it's because the sight of a fat git like me climbing out of any aeroplane is moderately amusing.

[Lowtimer]

Would you rather look stupid or be stupid?

I have a pic that AerBabe took of me leaning against the Yak at Old Warden about a year ago. I'd already doffed the bone dome by that point but still had my growbag on. The image of this balding beanpole with a pie-enhanced tum pressing against his flying suit, and making it bulge in a most unbecoming way, left me in absolutely NO doubt that I look pretty ridiculous in the whole getup. I feel even more stupid wearing it in the Cub. But what else is there? In a small, spartan, narrow cockpit which in not well sealed against loose articles getting into mischievous places, one is glad of the map pockets, integral kneepads, pen holders, velcro closures etc. Even in the Firefly, which is pretty civilised, I want to be able to put my map, stopwatch, etc. away in a sealed pocket before I start any manoeuvring. So, even if I do look like a prat, I'll stick with the gear. Though thank goodness my sunglasses are prescription and not fashionable wraparounds!

See you tomorrow Yakker?

PS FNG, check your PMs

[FNG]

To the habitual three most useless things in aviation ("the blue sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel in the bowser"), we might add a fourth: "the parachute in the locker"; but what, pray, is the appropriate etiquette when you find that you have an unexpected passenger and only one parachute? I naturally offered it to the passenger. Equally naturally, we each ended up without it.b

[yakker]

From the Yak 52 manual.

There are at least seven good reasons when to abandon the aircraft with parachute is the only way to save your life. One would be enough to justify the necessity to always fly with parachute.

1. Aircraft is not recovering from a spin or other type of rotation.

2.Structural damage of the aircraft in flight

3.Controls are jammed, aircraft is out of control

4.Mid-air collision

5.Fire in flight

6.Engine failure over the area where the emergency landing is dangerous (mountains, hills, bad surface, forests or other obstacles)

7.Harness or lock malfunction - you might leave the aircraft suddenly when you don't expect it !

[IO540]

Wouldn't it be better if all light aircraft were fitted with a ballistic parachute system?

Yes of course. To suggest otherwise (as widebody has done) is suggesting that anyone who makes a certain type of mistake deserves to get killed.

For some reason, the CAA won't approve them. Does anyone know why (really why, no speculation).

[83 3708]

In a small, spartan, narrow cockpit which in not well sealed against loose articles getting into mischievous places, one is glad of the map pockets, integral kneepads, pen holders, velcro closures etc.

Couldn't agree more !! After a pleasant straight and level trip on Saturday for a £100 suasage sandwich at Lydd I found on my return that one of my pens was missing from the hoopy things on the flying suit arm. Luckily a quick hunt around the crap on the floor found it. I always use my suit when flying the Yak even if it means dis-robing after landing so as not to appear to frightening to the local population.

As for parachutes.....I haven't worn one recently for upside down flying but then I am dubious if I would be able, under the stress of an emergency, to make the decision to abandon the aircraft and effect an exit at sufficient height to make stepping outside a real option.

Military regimentation would make the decision a non event but for a civillian it is a case of, Do I need to get out? Can I rescue the situation? What about wrecking the aeroplane? I haven't practiced 'out out out' how do I do it safely? What is my altitude now? Oh **** I am too low anyway that flat spin was eating up 4,000 feet per minute :sad:

Wear a parachute if you are drilled in how to use it. If you are not then dont take un-necessary risks and if you get stuffed....well thats fate for you.

As for Bone Domes...how much does one weigh? Stuff that on top of your kneck and apply 4g to it and see what it could do to your spine!!

Regards

83 etc

[Chimbu chuckles]

An interesting topic indeed.

Years ago, and I mean almost 20, when I was doing aeros a lot I never wore one, but did when meat bombing in case someone wrapped themselves around the tail on exit.

I would these days as I'm not as brave/stupid as I was in my early 20s.

It excercises my brain that on one occasion, if I had a chute I would definately have used it. We didn't and recovered from the spin under 500'....well under.:ugh:

I believe the transition from 'wearing all the kit' to flying in shirtsleeves began in the 50s when Cessna, Piper etc started marketing flying as something 'everyone can do'....'like driving a car' etc. In a, arguably successful, campaign to sell more aircraft they needed to make it seem as attainable as a drivers licence...wearing special clothing and parachutes was not conducive to attracting the masses to aviation.

Having said that I would not even think about walking out to my Bonanza in a flying suite, wearing a slim pak...but these days I would if I was flying aeros in a Pitts etc or flying vintage aircraft such as a Harvard etc. Same could be argued for a bone dome...I've seen a guy wearing one in a C206 while bush flying and thought he was a prat...I think it would be a good idea in an aerobatic aircraft where a loose/failing harness or a loose/failed manoeuvre could see you whack your head on the canopy.

Chuck

[chrisN]

Following the successful use of 'chutes in the famous Dunstable Lightning strike, virtually all gliding clubs now have 'chutes for all two-seater flights. The Dunstable case was a trial lesson, with someone of mature years (I believe) having their first flight. It seems that careful briefing was an essential part of the life saving on that occasion (both people lost their hearing temporarily from the noise of the strike).

(See http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_500699.hcsp if you want to read all about it.)


All trial lesson students are briefed on use of the parachute before their first flight.

That case was an extremely rare one, but it became a wake-up call for a large part of the gliding movement. Most of us realised that we had a duty of care to student pilots and visitors. It was expensive (about £8,000 for my fairly small gliding club, plus annual repack costs) but who could justify not spending it, if asked to in a coroner's court?

Gliding club 'chutes are normally repacked regularly - at least once each year, in many cases more often. It does wear them out to some extent, but some of the most reputable makers only allow them to have a 15 year life anyway. Privately owned 'chutes may be repacked less frequently, because they tend to have a known history and are less prone to being poorly looked after.

[FNG]

Ballistic chutes: very good idea. Anyone know the weight and balance numbers for a Tiger Moth with a ballistic chute?

IO, I appreciate that you think that any aeroplane over twenty years old should be confiscated by the Government and put on a bonfire, but a few of us deluded sentimentalists would like the ratty old heaps to continue flying, and retro-fitting ballistic chutes would not be practical in many cases. Let them by all means be fitted to modern aircraft, but let us hope also that they don't become a Volvo factor (which, if I interpret Widebody's post correctly, is all that he was saying: he was certainly not suggesting that anyone deserved to crash and burn).

I had a look at a Cirrus the other day: very impressive. If I was into that sort of flying, I woud certainly covet one most egregiously.

PS: 83, although it is true that we are not drilled to abandon our aircraft like the military are, I don't think that's a reason not to wear a chute. I am pretty sure that if I broke the wings, caught fire, or midaired and survived, I would jump out pretty darn sharpish, but I do worry that if I was in an irrecoverable spin I might spend too much time trying to recover and leave it too late to bail. I still think that wearing the chute is a good plan, though.

[stiknruda]

83 - last Friday I put a homebuilt through its permit flight test. The second part of this test was the aerobatic test schedule.

I started the test in the firmament above open farm land. I performed the test incrementally, rolls, loops, rolls off the top, stall turns... thus the last thing to demonstrate/observe was spin recovery. One turn spin to the left, clinb back up to the Gods, one turn to the right, climb, two left, climb 2 right, etc.

I had told the owner AND MADE SURE THAT HE UNDERSTOOD that if the aircraft had not recovered by 2,000' agl, I would be stepping out of it.

That decision was made on the ground and I would not change it mid sortie. As it was the aircraft performed as expected and jumping never became an issue but I was prepared to do it.

I haven't parachuted for nearly 25 years and I have no desire to unless I bust a self imposed trigger height.

Stik

[FNG]

Re Bone domes and G: Fast jet pilots and Formula One drivers wear tin hats but don't break their necks going aroung corners. Admittedly, they work out in the gym a bit more than us lard-loving private flyers (I love the hilarious scene in "Top Gun" in which Tom and Val strut about in towels flexing their pecs at each other: that film has never recovered from Tarantino's commentary on it at the end of the minor indy hit "Sleep with Me") . The lightweight helmets mentioned above don't seem to make your head weigh too much.

[Southern Cross]

Without having tabs on the exact data, my understanding is that there is ample anecdotal evidence of pilot's suffering severe head injuries or dying in crashes / forced landing that might / would have been survivable had they been wearing a helmet. It's kind of like wearing a helmet when cycling (actually a legal requirement in NZ and rightly so) or snowboarding: some people might think you look like a bit of a nob, but if it is your head that suffers the impact, will what they think really matter?

Another great reason for wearing a decent helmet is that the visors are, IMHO, vastly superior to wearing sunglasses - the sun can't "leak" around the edges, no pressure points around your ears under your headset....and the helmet won't fall off during aeros - forget the weight issue: unless you are pulling serious G, a good kevlar helmet is not going to impede your ability - most of us have our own faults to thank for that...

And on the flying suit point, for those of us that fly Yaks or the like, the likelihood that one will get oil on one's clothing is inevitable for every sortie - rather on the flying suit than on one's threads. Plus of course the ability to carry in zipped up pockets all the niks and naks requried to aerobat.

So there.

[IO540]

FNG

O, I appreciate that you think that any aeroplane over twenty years old should be confiscated by the Government and put on a bonfire, but a few of us deluded sentimentalists would like the ratty old heaps to continue flying, and retro-fitting ballistic chutes would not be practical in many cases. Let them by all means be fitted to modern aircraft

I laugh at funny things as much as the next man (or woman) but I really think you ought to get yourself a life.

Did I suggest "retrofitting"?

I will ignore your posts from now on. Like most people here (some of whom genuinely try to make a useful contribution) I spend far too much time already browsing through this pig slow website.

[FNG]

Calm down IO, 99.9% of what I say is an obvious spoof. You make very useful contributions here, even though occasionally the needle appears to be stuck in the groove. Peace unto you and unto the camels of your forefathers.

PS: genuine misunderstanding by me of your comment on the previous page:-


"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't it be better if all light aircraft were fitted with a ballistic parachute system?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes of course..."


PPS: don't go to the pilot and engineer thread. It might make you cross.

[englishal]

but I do worry that if I was in an irrecoverable spin I might spend too much time trying to recover and leave it too late to bail.
Bit like not wearing a parachute then?:D

Each to their own I say, if I can ever afford a nice new modern SE aircraft, I'll have a ballistic parachute fitted. Actually on the subject of irrecoverable spins, hasn't anyone developed a cheap spin arrestor chute which could be fitted to even the lightest of aircraft? (Like the ones they use for certifying Twins....which obviously don't like coming out of a spin)

EA

[Wide-Body]

IO 540

Think you missed my point. Which was with these 2 incidents the use of the BRS was to mitigate poor airmanship. Admittedly I was trying to do it with humour, I will refrain from such immediately. I notice you also missed FNG's humour, perhaps it was not me after all. As for the CAA not approving them, they must have sound reasoning. Of course IO 540 if you know better than the airworthiness regulatory authorities I am sure they will be pleased to hear your point.

Regards

Wide

:ouch:

[FNG]

So, let us suppose that we have decided to wear parachutes all the time, or at least whilst aerobatting. Should we go to a parachuting centre and do a practice jump, so that we have actual experience of a parachute descent? Analogies here with a PFL down to the flare in a field, or to an engine-off landing on the airfield, or a wet and wild ditching course.

I discussed this with my wife last night, and we decided that the answer is "no", on the basis that there's no point participating in one dangerous activity in order to prepare yourself for surviving another (my wife thinks that I do too much dangerous stuff anyway, what with the ski-mountaineering, the rock climbing, and the appearing in front of His Honour Judge Harry Bonkers QC). Jumping out entails risks: the thing may not open, you have no reserve, and you may land badly, but it's a last resort option preferable to staying in.

[eharding]

I was talking about this with my brother-in-law the other day - the Army has on-and-off paid him to throw himself out of perfectly good aeroplanes purely for the hell of it - and he was of the opinion that a practice jump or two would be a good idea if you regularly strap on parachute for safety purposes - he was citing his experience in his first couple of jumps of having "tunnel vision", which he didn't experience thereafter.

The *real* risk FNG is that you might get a taste for it.... and then it will be nothing but lycra jumpsuits, skydiving strapped to a surfboard and high-fives all round.

[freefallfun]

I thought the majority of pilot parachute rigs were round canopies? If that's the case then you'll be hard pressed to find a skydiving centre that still uses "rounds" where you could get trained and do a jump. These days we start people on "Square" Ram Air canopies.

I'm sure that there would be some merit in learning the technique for PLF's (Parachute Landing Fall) which is required when you land under a round. A Static line 1st jump course would include a section on PLF’s as many skydiving centres use round reserve canopies and so you need to know how to land under one should the need arise.

If anyone want’s the details of their local parachute centre the British Parachute Association has a listing on their web site -> http://www.bpa.org.uk

Oh and I agree with eharding that the biggest risk is getting hooked on jumping. I just went to do a one off jump 9 years ago and I’m still at it! I only “drive” spam cans right now, but when I get my tail wheel conversion finished and BPA jump pilot rating done I’ll be wearing a pilot rig when flying the jump plane at our DZ.

FreeFallFun
:ok:

(Edited for grammar mistake)

[Croqueteer]

FNG, sorry for the late reply, I've just had two weeks sitting on the balcony of a Canadian lakeside cottage with my G & T. No, I did not get a caterpillar club bage because my chute was not an Irvine. On the subject of bone domes, I was aware of my head being chucked about in the spin because of the weight of my hard hat. Also "simple" areos like a barrel roll or in particular a stall turn can easily give you a scare.

[FNG]

Mmmmm, the lycra jumpsuit sounds pretty special, although these days my flying suit fits pretty snugly in places. Can't think why.

Croqueteer, I hope you managed more than one G&T at the cottage in Canuckistan (I assume Upper Ontario? lovely part of the world, must floatplane it one day).

I ain't jumping out of no stoopid aeroplane 'lessn it be brokken. Anyway, I refuse to participate in a sport in which people say "gnarly, dude", and so forth.

[yakker]

freefallfun, yes our 'chutes are round, not so easy to find someone to repack. It was suggested to try a jump, and learn the correct way to land. But if I have just leapt from an aircraft then a broken bone or two would be the least of my worries!

[FNG]

Gliding clubs are the place to go for repacking of emergency chutes. Booker, for example. I gather that Martin Baker might do it, but would charge big wonga.

[freefallfun]

Yakker,

Rounds used for the purpose of reserve canopies are still out there in the skydiving world, albeit not the norm. Most BPA riggers and some BPA advanced packers would be able to re-pack a round pilot rig. Skydivers get their kit checked and reserves re-packed every 6 months.Find your local drop zone and ask there if you ever struggle to find someone to re-pack your rig.

I started my skydiving doing 19 descents under rounds. In my experience you don't land a round canopy, you simply "arrive".

All together everyone, "Feet and knees together!"

FreeFallFun :ok:

(edited for typos)

[MLS-12D]

you might as well say that everyone in a light aircraft should always wear a 'chute 'just in case'. The logic is unarguable, but wouldn't it be a tad OTT?Perhaps, but I tend not to worry too much about what other people think (or, more accurately, what they "might think"). Some might consider it a tad OTT to check the fuel for moisture before every flight, too.

It's a personal decision. On my part, I wear a chute whenever I have the chance. Essentially, that means in every glider, and in Harvards. I would wear a chute in other aircraft too, except that no chute is available, and/or the aircraft design doesn't permit a quick exit (think PA28).

Re your moral dilemma: if I am going to fly with a pax and we have chutes, the bale-out procedure is part of the pre-flight briefing. If the worst later happens and I have to give the command to get out and walk, I know that I will not be sticking around to have a debate. I might however freeze myself ... can't predict that one in advance. :ugh:

Do you all wear flying suits and boots too? Yes in Harvards (gloves too); not in anything else (perhaps I should).

[chrisN]

FNG wrote: "Gliding clubs are the place to go for repacking of emergency chutes." [snip]

Two points, if I may:

1. Most gliding clubs have their 'chutes repacked by certified riggers elsewhere. It is rare to have one within a gliding club.

2. I would only use a rigger/repacker certified on the make of 'chute in question. I once had my 'chute repacked by a parachute club person, and they did it wrong - found at the next repack by someone who was suitably qualified. (The drogue had been packed inside out and did not spring out in the way it should, when the D ring was pulled.)

Irvin/GQ are reputed not to warrant their 'chutes unless repacked by themselves or people they have certified. I can understand why, and support their logic, if true.

Chris N.

[FNG]

Good points, but at Booker they re-pack Nationals on site, as used by glider pilots also.

[Wide-Body]

Hi FNG

I believe that it is one of Irvin/GQs own staff who repacks the chutes at booker.

Regards


Wide

[MLS-12D]

I corroborate everythng in chrisN's recent post.