Tips for landing....

[Randomtox]

I suspect (and fully accept) that the over-riding response to this question may be - ' practice' !!! But I'm interested in other peoples views. I'm a student pilot - VERY inexperienced as I only have 4 hours !

My question is this - at the end of my last lesson my instructor asked if I wanted to bring us onto base and then final (brave man !). I, of course, jumped at the chance. The turn onto base went OK - as did the turn onto final. At this point though it all got somewhat more tricky. The tip from my instructor was to pick a point on the runway and keep that in the same part of the screen. I was having trouble keeping the *runway* in the screen - let alone a specific part of it ! How do you guys manage to control the aircraft so precisely on approach ? Do you use rudder much more than you would in level flight or do you counter drift primarily using ailerons ?

Any tips gratefully received ! (might prevent another near heart-attack!)

[FlyFreeWbe]

I remember those! He lets you hold on until you're over the threshold and then one lesson, he'll pretend to be asleep so you have to land yourself!! :E Unfortunately for you, I can't really tell how I do it..maybe practice?? (sorry, had to!). Honestly, you get used to compensating for the wind blowing you across the runway as well as how quickly you're going down. I'd say, its mostly in steady conditions that you could get away with not using the rudder, but most the time you have to cause the weather in Britain is not stable! You'll come to that later on when your FI teaches you crab/wingdown crosswind landing techniques.

In the end remember, slow, steady movements especially when pitching up/down and > pitch controls speed > power controls rate of descent. What are you learning in btw?

FFW

corrections welcome, but thats how I do it!

[Randomtox]

FFW - thanks for the tips ! I'm learning in a DA-20 (Katana). Nice to fly - but I'm yet to be conviced that the undercarriage is as strong as they tell me ! Looks like it'll snap any minute !

re: slow, smooth movements - tried those the other day. I'm wondering if the rudder needs a LOT more input at low power settings (Stall is @ 40 Kias - so touchdown is at ~55 Kias).

cheers

[Skylark4]

Randomtox,
Don't worry. It will all come together eventually. You won't even think about it. You don't think about how to turn a corner in your car do you? (I'm not talking edge of controllability and gritted teeth here mind.)

Is that really how you land a trike, fly it on 15k above stalling speed? I don't know, whenever I've flown one I've been too busy trying to align to the runway to notice the speed. If stall is 40k, I would expect touchdown to be at about 41.

Mike W
Edit to add:- The slower you go, the more deflection you have to put in to any control to have the same effect. If he hasn't already done it, at some point the Instructor will demonstrate the stall. One of the signals that you are getting close is that the controls go 'mushy', you have to make a big move for small effect.
The Katana is a fairly slippery beast so speed control on the approach will not be the easiest. Nose down and the speed will rise quite quickly. Raise the nose and the speed will be quite slow to drain away, relatively speaking. You must be careful not to let the aircraft get ahead of you. Set up for a nice long approach and make small movements on the controls. Relax, take your time.

M

[Randomtox]

Mike W

You make it sound as though alignment is the most difficut part of landing ! (seems that way at the moment) Good analogy re: driving though ! Point taken !

re: stall / landing - I think my instructor is trying to avoid landing at on/near stall speed and building in a safety margin (he'll live a long time I suspect!) The stall buzzer goes crazy at about 50kts anyway - so you land with what sounds like an amateur bagpipe lesson as backing music !

[charlie-india-mike]

Tips for Landing


Tip 1: A good landing is one that you can walk away from
Tip 2: A great landing is one where they can use the aircraft again afterwards.


It will all come together in time with practice

C-I-M

[FNG]

Have a look at the current thread on airspeed (plus many older threads on landing). You should try to avoid adopting that "I'll just add on a few more knots for mum" attitude. Piling into the upwind hedge on a short strip tends to shorten aeroplane life, and may also affect pilot longevity. Otherwise, as already said, don't worry. You will be taught how to land and, although it's difficult, it's both achievable and fun.

PS: a useful link, for landing and much else besides.

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/landing.html#sec-land-low-speed

PPS: I agree with what Aerbabe is just about to say.

[hope she doesn't edit her post to "FNG has agreed to give me a zillion quid, and his spotter notebook"]

[AerBabe]

Tip for landing?

Don't!

If you try and land you'll find it very difficult. Try and keep the aircraft flying & eventually you'll realise your wheels are down.

Obviously this requires a little tweaking or:
a) you may stall at several meters above the runway;
b) you will land perfectly on the hedge at the end of the runway.

Either will create lots of work for your instructor, which tends to upset them.


Editted to say I agree with what FNG just said. And he would have to pay me a zillion quid to take his spotter notebook. :p

[Whirlybird]

Have a read in your book on Human Performance - if you've got it yet - about acquiring skills. Basically, when you start, you're doing a series of separate movements; later on they all become one thing - landing an aircraft. You haven't had time to do that yet, so it seems like there's too much to do. It takes time...sorry, but that's all there is to it.

I was explaining the same thing to a helicopter student of mine at the weekend, who wondered how you could hover when you've got three controls interacting with one another with a lag in all of them. Well, you practise, and one day you just....hover.

One day you'll just...land. :ok:

[Saab Dastard]

I'm sure I've said it before, but "aim at the ground and miss for as long as possible" works for me.

When you get better, substitute "runway" for "ground".

:)

SD

[M14P]

This gem from the PZL Wilga 2000 POH, Normal Procedures:

When near ground....................................Touch Down

OK!

[willbav8r]

Lower the landing gear first...........

[foxmoth]

If stall is 40k, I would expect touchdown to be at about 41.
Not unless you are very lucky or VERY good, most people will probably touch down 5 kts or so above the stall, the whole thing of actually "Stalling it on" is very misleading, even in a taildragger.
Randomtox -
What has been said up to now (relax, small corrections, try NOT to land) are all good, but I would point out that at the momment your instructor is probably only trying to give you as much handling as possible and will actually move on to TEACHING you how to land in the next few lessons - give him the chance

[FlyFreeWbe]

Sounds like you've had most of your questions answered! Mind you, I agree with foxmoth, your instructor will no doubt be teaching it you soon. Solo comes up so quickly.. but then it will be LANDING and not LAN - then - D - then - ING. (Oh,and I've actually already used that website FNG mentioned before, quite handy :ok: )

FFW

[John Farley]

Do you use rudder much more than you would in level flight or do you counter drift primarily using ailerons ?

Try and relax on the rudder. If you are up tight on that it may be making it harder to sort out the bank angle needed with the ailerons.

At your stage you need only think of the ailerons, elevator and throttle as the things to juggle on final. If the ball is a tad out forget it for now.

When you have the runway in roughly the right place in the windscreen (as your man recommends) then that is the time to level your wings. Wait a mo with the wings level and if the ruway pisses off again adjust your bank angle again to bring it back.

Gradually each wander off should get smaller until one day you will wonder what all the fuss was about

[TonyR]

If you drive you will remember how it was difficult to judge the width of the car when learning, it seemed like a gap twice the size of the car was difficult to drive through.

Just give it another few hours, it will just click into place and you will do it without too much trouble.

I use an FAA logbook where you note the number of landings, I was just thinking about how few out of about 5000 odd have been really really "good".

[TheSilverFox]

Randomtox.

The best advice that I can offer is to change your Instructor quickly!

He should not be offering to let you fly the approach with only 4 hours training under your belt.

He is not doing you any favours. All that will happen is that you will not be able to stabalise the approach he will have to take control, leaving you finishing of your flight exercise on a low point, asking yourself the question "How am I ever going to manage this?"

As for maintaining your aiming point in the same part of the windscreen comment. How on earth can he expect you to achieve this? You dont yet have the required skills (remember you have only completed 4 hours training!). It would be far more beneficial at this stage of your training for him to demonstrate the approach and landing whilst talking you through the procedure.

Don't start questioning your own ability. Once you have been correctly taught to fly specific rates of descent whilst keeping the airspeed under control you will then be ready to apply this technique to the approach phase (not before!)

To be fair to your instructor, he probably believes that he is doing the right thing and is only trying to make your lesson more interesting for you, but as I mentioned and the top of this reply, he is not doing you any favours. The proof is reflected in the fact that you instigated this thread!

Good luck with your flying!

TSF.

[Keef]

Oh, I dunno. My instructor had me setting up on finals within a few lessons.

He insisted on two things: keep the nose pointing at the ground, and keep the runway in sight when on finals. At first, he followed through (or I did). One day he told me calmly that I'd done the last three landings all on my own - I didn't know! After that, it got easier.

For me, the critical bit is to land (a trike) on the mainwheels first. That probably means with the stick/yoke back in the pit of your stomach. The most heinous crime with a trike is to land on all three wheels at once.

[Finals19]

Interesting comments here with regard to touchdown points and airspeed.....

IMHO, isn't correct speed everything on the approach? As for the touchdown point and runway aspect in the windshield, that comes with practice. But with regard to touchdown speed, I question its actual relevance. Surely it should be THRESHOLD speed that is more important. Set up correctly (e.g. C152, assuming height is correct over threshold, the speed should be more or less 55Kias) As I was taught, it is then gradual power reduction to idle and focus on the far end, raising the nose to keep the aspect correct in the windshield. At that point you are in ground effect, so the airplane is going to perform differently to normal no? (to get a 152 down on the numbers, you have to start the round out and power off some 200ft horizontally before the touchdown area)....

Nothing too tough about it, just practice and it comes together more easily.:D

[TonyR]

He should not be offering to let you fly the approach with only 4 hours training under your belt.

I think my instructor had me flying the approach from the first hour, at least 2 every lesson.

Some of us were solo in less than 8 hours, when do you suggest we begin to fly approaches?

Tony

[M14P]

I think the point is that there seems to be a reluctance to give really good, pertinent pattered demos.

It's more difficult than letting the student fly and just critiquing after (and during - yuk!)

[bar shaker]

TSF

I'm not sure that Randomtox is being taught to land. Recent lessons will most likely have been turns and general handling.

Letting a student come in on finals is the perfect way of showing why its essential that these skills are honed.

It is very easy, when learning, to think that you have grasped turns about a quarter of the way through the lesson. The reality of being on final always shows that there is more to this part of the skill set than was apparent at 2000ft.

Good luck Randomtox, it will all come together very soon.

[NinjaBill]

A good landing will normally start with the approach stable by at least 3 or 400 feet. If a student has more practice from an early stage at keeping an aircraft stable on approach until 40 or 50ft, then when they move onto landing, they will find them easier, as they are used to flying the approach already.

I dont see any reason why a student shouldnt fly an approach, until 40-50ft as soon as they are able to control pitch roll and power, which should be after a couple of hours.

NB

[FNG]

My instructor had me fly half way down the approach on my second lesson, and land on my third, and I was far from being a gifted student.

I have heard tell of instructors not letting their students taxi, or use the radio, until well into the course. I'm glad that mine, from lesson one, had me try pretty much everything, under his supervision.

[Randomtox]

All,

thanks very much indeed for all your posts ! Very interesting reading ! As has been mentioned - I haven't actually been taught anything to do with landing yet - just been allowed to attempt the line up with the runway.

My key question - one that has been answered in abundance (thanks) was essentially - 'is landing incredibly difficult that takes ages to master / how do you do it ' - the answer seems to be 'No - it isn't a black art - you just need to practice (and don't expect to be doing this with the grand total of 4 hrs flight time under your belt !!!!'.......fair enough !

At the moment, for me, the learning curve re: flying is like the learning curve re: skiing. It looks so easy yet seems so hard - then suddenly you think - wow - I just did it !

Thanks again for all your responses ! (and if anyone needs tips on skiing - PM me !)

cheers

R

[High Wing Drifter]

FNG,
I have heard tell of instructors not letting their students taxi, or use the radio, until well into the course. I'm glad that mine, from lesson one, had me try pretty much everything, under his supervision.
Same with my instructors. It makes a huge difference. Something to do with that "I do I understand" quote.

Randomtox,

You akin flying to skiing, not a skier so can't compare. Specifically, I would compare landing to golf. With the two, too much thinking and analysis leads to occasional brilliance countered by often pretty shoddy results.

[AerBabe]

HWD, I don't think Randomtox was comparing the two, just trying to offer some help in return for ours. However, there are similarities - both rely on a couple of planks of wood to keep you upright.

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Thanks again for all your responses ! (and if anyone needs tips on skiing - PM me !)

Any advice on how to make the weather good when I'm going skiing would be gratefully received! ;)

As for the landings, don't take any notice of the chap who advised you to change your instructor. Pay attention to his advice about keeping your aiming point in a fixed position on the windscreen, and try to note the point on the windscreen where it is fixed. It's not easy to start with, but it'll come.

If you choose the right aiming point, fix it where it should be on your windscreen and set the power and flaps - you will find that you consistently fly approaches at just the right speed, with just the right rate of descent, and consistently touch down just where you want without really having to try.:) It'll stand you in good stead for landing on shorter runways, and very good stead if you ever decide to mix your hobies by flying a ski-equipped aeroplane.

[MikeeB]

I don't see how anyone can judge when a student is ready or not to fly an approach from a posting on a BBS, no matter what it says. Only the instructor in the aeroplane with the student can make that call.

IIRC I was following through with the instructor(s) very early on in my training, and I was 'forced' to use the radio from lesson 1. (A/G airfield)

This might not happen with every student at every flight school, indeed reading some of the other postings on this tread, it clearly doesn't.

To cut to the chase, isn't the only correct way to teach a student the one that teaches them to fly without endangering either themselves or anyone else? Different teaching methods suit different types of people, that is what marks out a good instructor. Not one that just delivers a vanilla training course.

I'm quite happy to listen to constructive criticism and indeed I ask for it at work. I would and did welcome such comments about my flying training no matter when they were delivered and about what period of my flight.

Just my 2p :)

[boomerangben]

On my few attempts to land a fixed wing, I made a mess in my pants (well not literally, but nearly). My advice is to give up aeroplanes and fly helicopters. The idea of deliberately hitting the ground at anything more than walking pace is beyond me :E :E :E

[bookworm]

Best one I heard about learning to land was from a pilot friend being taught by an instructor who was a keen cricketer. "Try to look at a point on the runway about a cricket pitch away as you flare" was the latter's advice. The student visualised the Oval, picked a point a few hundred yards away, and landings miraculously improved. It later turned out that the instructor had meant 22 yards.

You'll get the hang of it...

[TheSilverFox]

Some interesting points of view from a lot of chaps out there. I suspect from your reaction that a few of you are not instructors. Those of you that are, are you really suggesting that a student should be taught a flight excercise (And we are talking about ex13 - Note the number, it bears a direct relationship to the stage of the entire flight training syllabus) without first giving a THOROUGH ground briefing?

Only one of the contributors (Sorry can't remember your name off the top of my head) recognised and enourmous potential benefit of a good pattered demonstration of an approach to land and he is quite correct in his comment that the reason most instructors opt for the "Let the student fly it and then take control approach" is that the correct method (pattered demo) is far more difficult!

As for the comment about just pointing the nose towards the runway, setting the correct power and correct flap setting - tell me. What was the correct power setting for an approach in a piper arrow for runway 19 at Redhill at 14:00 Today?
Would it be the same as the approach at 14:00 last Sunday?
I think (or at least hope!) that you see my point. which is that the correct power setting for any given approach on any given type of aircraft will vary according to conditions. You guys all understand this and can deal with it without any problem because you are all experienced pilots and you have been taught how to manage your ROD & airspeed. After 4 hours on a correctly structured course of training the student has not.

I'm not sure how the thread drifted towards Taxying and Radio operation! I agree that your instructor should introduce you to both of the above sooner rather than later. We teach Taxying from day 1 - We teach RT from day 1. We do not teach ex 13 from day 1.

[paulo]

"The idea of deliberately hitting the ground at anything more than walking pace is beyond me"

in a heli just take your hands off the controls - I think you'll find it'll come easy enough :}

[shortstripper]

Hi Silverfox

Not being an instructor I don't have your in depth view of teaching people to fly. I did however, learn ... so I guess that does give me some idea of how it's done.
In my case I originally learnt to fly gliders, which by their very nature, tends to require you to learn landings very early on. The average early flights last only a few minutes so you make the most of the whole flight. I soloed in under 4 hours with 32 landings to my credit, so as you'll see, landing can be taught within a very short time. I'm not saying this to blow my own trumpet as many glider pilots go solo very quickly (especially the young ones, I was 18 at the time). My point is ... surely there is more to it than just teaching in a set pattern or by excersises in a defined order? I realise training needs to be structured, but if "X" must always be taught before "Y", what happens when the weather prevents this? Surely on days when upper airwork is not possible, circuit and landing training can be achieved? or do you just cancel and say "sorry mate ... until you've done X I can't possibly start to teach you Y"? With our weather you'd take for ever to learn if a rigid 1,2,3 approach is used.

I do wonder if some instructors find it easier or in their own minds safer to hold back on the first solo until they have virtually taught the fledgling pilot everything. I recently had a student tell me that she couldn't go solo before 25 hours as that was the law? ... since when? I think her instructor was being a wee bit economical with the truth there! :suspect:

SS

[J.A.F.O.]

Randomtox

I have just returned to flying after an eighteen year gap. Today I gave it a go again and, even though I was a bit rusty, I could remember a little more than expected, found the airfield, flew back to it, set up on final, flew down final until a few feet from the ground when my brain started shouting "THERE'S A BIG GREEN THING RUSHING UP TO HIT US AT 60 MPH; RUN AWAY" - and I did.

I'm sure you'll soon get the hang of it, as I hope I will, I know I could do it eighteen years ago, so I must be able to do it again, it's just that this is obviously a tricky skill both to learn and retain without practice.

BoomerangBen

I always thought of eggbeaters as something you used to get from A to B, particularly if one or the other didn't have an airfield, and planks as real flying but I have to say that I'm beginning to agree with you and it is much more civilised to stop before you land rather than land before you stop.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'm sure you'll soon get the hang of it, as I hope I will, I know I could do it eighteen years ago, so I must be able to do it again, it's just that this is obviously a tricky skill both to learn and retain without practice. Last year I retrained after a thirteen year gap, so it can be done! I didn't seem to have to learn to fy again, I did seem to have to learn to land again, and I'd more or less completely forgotten all the procedural stuff (but it came back OK).

[J.A.F.O.]

Gertrude

Thanks for the words of support, I soloed today for the first time in many years (it felt like the first solo all over again); so I must have managed to learn or re-learn some of the skills involved.

Cheers

JAFO

[Milt]

Congratulations on the Solo

Is there a better feeling of achievement?

If you have an instructor who "stirs the pudding" on short final he has a disease that seems to be passed down a line of those pilots who have an inbuilt fear of ground proximity. You should then opt for another instructor as there would appear to be no known cure if you are contagious.