Do you know where this is?

[david viewing]

Do you know where this is?

RAC : FROM 04/04/23 15:25 TO 04/04/23 16:15 B0667/04
E)AUS 04-04-0318/1061/AS6
TEMPORARY CONTROLLED AIRSPACE ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS
AIRWAY L9 EXTENDED VERTICALLY FM KENET TO MIMBI FL65/2000FT AMSL
1525/1615. CONTROL AUTHORITY LACC
F)2000FT AMSL G)FL065

Perhaps the propagator of this Notam is unaware that these waypoints are not shown on the VFR 1/2mil map. But since the restriction goes down to 2000', it might be of interest to VFR pilots flying between Newbury and Swindon on Friday.

Is there anything that can be done to persuade the authors of Notams to make them more intelligible to their (presumably) target audience? This Notam does not even include grid references and presumably would not be plotted by any of the interpretive mapping software either.

In slight mitigation, a presumably related Notam does refer to '6mi E of Lyneham' giving Captain Sherlock Holmes a starter clue as to where this is. But it really is silly to make things so difficult when the Notam is presumably designed to separate VFR traffic from some VIP. Unless the Notam author has an axe to grind with the VIP, of course....

[Aussie Andy]

Thanks for pointing this out David...

It seems unbelievably negligent. I think the problem is from what I have heard elsewhere (and I think it was from Mike Cross on here somewhere?) that there is effectively no editing oversight within the NOTAM publication system: unless you make a complaint. I think that AIS at NATS are the people to complain to, details here: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/contact.htm

Meantime, here is a pictorial depiction of L9 highlighting KENET and MIMBI for those who don't have any other way of seeing this:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/andyhardyuk/pprune/kenet_to_mimbi.gif

Hope this helps..!

Andy

[Mike Cross]

Spot on David

Rod Bailes-Brown and I were at AIS Heathrow yesterday representing the PFA and AOPA respectively with AUS in attendance.

I had prepared a few examples of this kind of thing for their edification and there was some fairly frantic writing going on.

They are taking notice and were fairly gobsmacked at the scale of the problems. I think we will see action. It's down to the originators for not wording it correctly and to AIS for not educating their originators better. However as much of it originates from their bosses in the CAA we can't blame it all on AIS.

Here's a few more

Where's this?
AGA : FROM 04/04/01 12:59 TO PERM L1109/04
E)COLDHARBOUR FARM MICROLIGHT SITE WITHDRAWN ENR 5-5-4-1 REFERS
No co-ordinates so the user is expected to consult the AIP.

EGNS
RAC : FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
E)SRA FOR RWY 03 NOT AVBL

Appears in an area brief althought it concerns an approach aid.

Here's a better one
EGVA
RAC : FROM 04/02/19 07:30 TO 04/08/27 22:00 B0063/04
E)FAIRFORD MATZ ACTIVE
Names the aerodrome and it's outside the ATZ so should be in the area brief.


EGJJ
RAC : FROM 04/04/01 11:02 TO 04/09/01 12:00 EST C1161/04
E)THE ATTENTION OF PILOTS FLYING SVFR INTO AND OUT THE C.I. CTR IS DRAWN TO THE TEMPORARY PROHIBITED AREAS CREATED AROUND CAP DE LA HAGUE AND CAP DE FLAMANVILLE VRPS (EGJJ AD2-EGJJ-1-11 REFERS). DETAILS ARE IN OTHER UK AND FRENCH NOTAM.

“DETAILS ARE IN OTHER UK AND FRENCH NOTAM.” So why are they repeated in this one?


EGTT EGPX
OTH : FROM 03/01/17 15:17 TO PERM B0148/03
E)FREQ 123.45MHZ NOT TO BE USED AS AN AIR TO AIR COMM CHANNEL WITHIN
RANGE OF ANY VHF GROUND STATION IN UK FIRS

This one's been going since January last year. Is it really necessary to repeat it in every brief? It also falls outside the ICAO definition of what constitutes a NOTAM so shouldn't be there for that reason as well.


ICAO defines a PIB as a recapitulation in PLAIN LANGUAGE, I don't think this would win a plain language award.
EGTT
COM : FROM 03/12/01 08:00 TO PERM U1444/03
E) THE FOLLOWING STCICS GUARD FREQUENCIES AND BROADCASTS WILL BE
OPERATIONAL
FOXTROT SIERRA 4742KHZ, ALPHA LIMA 5702KHZ
DELTA WHISKY 9031KHZ, HOTEL WHISKEY 11247KHZ
FOXTROT 13257KHZ, BRAVO ECHO 18018KHZ
FS, AL, DW, AND HW DUAL MONITORED
H+00 QNH AL, DW, HW, BE
H+30 AFCS AL,DW,HW,BE
MPA BROADCAST FS, DW

Mike:ugh:

[FNG]

Many thanks for this very helpful information. Could I suggest that the thread title be changed to something like "Important: temporary CAS extension Swindon area 24/04". I am sufficiently sad to read most threads near the top of the first page, but some people are more choosy.

[Mike Cross]

AIS are on to this one. To precis the response it originated in MoD who passed it on to AUS (Airspace Utilisation Section of the CAA) without any co-ordinates.

AUS say they did not have a copy of the co-ordinates for significant points readily available :confused: :confused: :confused: nor can they be stored within their current system (due for update soon).

AIS have sent them a reference copy of the data and they will try to do better next time.

Mike

[RichyRich]

Mike

In your example
"E) THE FOLLOWING STCICS GUARD FREQUENCIES AND BROADCASTS WILL BE
OPERATIONAL
FOXTROT SIERRA 4742KHZ....."

(which annoyingly appears in all PIB's I've grabbed this year) - any idea what they're actually trying to tell us? Complete gobbeldy gook to me.

thanks
Rich

[NinjaBill]

apparently, according to google, a "STrike Command Integrated Communications Center" for "for pp, weather, message relays or frequency designation"

does that help?:confused:

[Evo]

Mike, talking about invalid NOTAMs, we often see


NAVW: FROM 04/04/01 05:00 TO 04/06/30 21:15 H1914/04
D)HJ
E)AUS 04-04-0080/770/AS5
RADIOSONDE BALLOONS TO BE LAUNCHED FROM 5045N 00119W SOMERTON,
ISLE OF WIGHT, DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS ONLY AND SUBJECT TO FORECAST
METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS.
CONTACT FOR LAUNCH TIMES, TEL 01983 294141.
F)SFC G)UNL


Rumour at the airfield is that this doesn't happen and hasn't for years - so I called the number to find out; you get Alenia Marconi Systems in Cowes who haven't got the faintest idea what this NOTAM is about or why their number is on it (I was redirected several times, but nobody I talked to has any idea - i've got somebody asking around, and they'll call me back if they find anything). It seems that either the number is totally wrong or the NOTAM is some ghost in the system and doesn't apply any more. At the very least, if you called and asked for launch times they wouldn't be able to help.

Anyway, one more for the list ... and I'm obviously the first person in years to call :) :)

HTH

[Aussie Andy]

Mike,

You should get a bl**dy knighthood for all your efforts on this and other fronts... for "services to aviation"...!

You said AUS say they did not have a copy of the co-ordinates for significant points readily available That really takes the cake: surely its in the AIP!?!?!?!

This really exposes the nonsenses and laxness in the system. How is it that other airspace users don't complain? Presumably airlines OPS departments mask these gaps by filing in the blanks themselves? I guess the MIL do likewise (or don't care as they are faster and have guns...)

Andy :ok:

[Mike Cross]

The answer of course is the airlines in the main fly SIDS STARS and Airways under a Flight Plan and under ATC control. No-one has an air display or a parachute jump or what used to be called a Purple Airway in class A so it's only us poor muppets who have to deal with it.

I can tell you that the Quality Manager at AIS has been monitoring this thread and as a result he got the Stokenchurch and Buxton NOTAM re-issued before I had passed anything on to him.

It may not always be apparant but they do notice.

Mike

[BRL]

Thanks for your input Mike, I know it is much appreciated by all who read this forum.

I can tell you that the Quality Manager at AIS has been monitoring this thread Perhaps then they would be able to offer us ppruners a visit to their place for an informal chat/meeting about how things have developed and a Q+A session too.

I am sure that would be a positive step to make.

[Avoiding Action]

Just to clear this one up - it's the military HF radio system. The rest of that notam refers to which designators (2 letter combination) match which freqs and when they will be active.

As for the rest of the notams mentioned - I despair :{ :{ :{

AA

[Sir George Cayley]

As important it is to ensure that NOTAMS ( and the elusive NOTAWS) are easily interpreted I would venture that an alarming proportion of recreational pilots NEVER consult them.

All efforts should be made to educate all strata of licenced pilots that it is imperative to be fully briefed prior to departure.

I have flown locally in the past without checking weather NOTAMS or even if I have matching socks. Just as I drive without consulting AA Roadwatch the Police or BBC weather.

The level of ignorance in rank and file PPL's about the wealth of enroute info is astounding though largely not admitted.

The efforts of the aforementioned is self evident and worthy of high praise. But what higher praise than every pilot contemplating a flight willingly seeking out info which has been diligently presented for their safety?

Discuss

Sir George Cayley

[Mike Cross]

BRL

Re visits. Aside from the one which you and I attended Loughborough University Flying Club have visited and the IBM Flying Club are about to as well.

If PPRuNers would like another one I will be happy to see if I can fix one up.

Sir George
WRT education things are starting to happen.

Some PPRuNer's may have seen me on the Pilot stand at the London Air Show at Earls Court. I was there on the Friday and Saturday and was running through a 15 minute presentation and Q&A on NOTAM briefings.

I was very busy and pleased with the level of interest. A lot of people did not realise that the Narrow Route Brief is the one to go for most of the time, nor did they realise that they only needed to give the brief a name, say where they were going from and to and what height they were flying to get a brief valid for the next 48 hours. The rest of the boxes simply allow you to adjust the brief to give you better filtering. At this time of year you should be getting no more than 2 pages if you have got it right.

A lot of people did not realise that they could get all of their aerodrome charts, approach plates and comms info for any licensed airfield for nothing from the site.

This was all set up and paid for by Pilot. They have asked me to do the same again at Aerofair and the PFA Rally. Not sure whether I will be able to do all 6 days yet.

There is a strong possibility of AIS having someone there as well and you may see some more publicity and "how to's" appearing over the next month or two.

Mike

[DRJAD]

Mike,

As has been said before, and I would like to add my voice to it, the work you are doing on liaison with AIS and with education of the GA community is second to none.

As a fairly frequent flyer I would like to feel that those sharing the airspace I am using have also informed themselves as to navigational, etc., restrictions, alterations, and anomalies. That way, our routes and actions are more easily understood by all.

I believe there are a number of people also giving their time to assist with the liaison and education tasks: thanks are due to them too.

Clarity, or at least accuracy and unambiguity, in the presentation of NOTAM data is an absolute requirement.

[Evo]

Planning for today, another NOTAM for the "fairly useless" collection


AMEND CHART ENR 6-3-1-1
DELETE P7 SEGMENT BTN LOGAN AND KOPUL, P7 ONLY EXISTS BTN BARMI AND LOGAN
ENR 3-1-1-61 REFERS


This is listed for VFR and IFR traffic, surface to FL999, in a 50nm radius (roughly) centred on Manston. Pretty big, really, but looking at the NOTAM i've got no idea what it's talking about other than that it's somehow related to what I guess are intersections. This makes me guess that it's not important to me pottering around at 2000ft. I suspect most people would give up there. :)

However, i'm feeling brave and so, after looking at the ENR references, I eventually managed to find a airway (?) "P7" from BARMI to LOGAN - which sounds hopeful. That part of the AIP doesn't make much sense to me as a non-IR'd PPL and as far as I can tell the route is always class A and FL85 and above. If that's right, then why is it a VFR NOTAM? If I've got it wrong and it is important to us VFR folks then it's still rubbish because despite reading it and looking up the references I've still got no clue how it relates to me... :O

[24Right]

Perhaps the improvement most likely to get PPLs reading NOTAMS would be to put them into plain intelligible language. The current system of wording hails back to the old telex days of the fixed network, which no one now uses. NOTAMS are now obtained via the web, where everything else uses normal words and pictures. Indeed, wouldn't it be helpful if chart extracts etc were used as in the Kenet reply from AA ? Then there would be no excuse for PPLs

1) not bothering to get NOTAMS on the basis that they were either irrelevant or incomprehensible and

2) flying as though they didn't exist.

Just IMHO.

24R

[NinjaBill]

I agree with 24right, are we so short of bandwith that we have to use abreviations in the notams?

how about instead of

EGNS
RAC : FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
E)SRA FOR RWY 03 NOT AVBL

EGNS - Isle of Man
FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA) for RUNWAY 03 NOT AVAILABLE

its only a few extra letters, and people can very quickly realise if it is relevent or not, rather than scratching their head, wondering where EGNS is, and wondering if SRAs are important to them, and double checking that avbl does indeed mean available

NB

[RichyRich]

Evo

This is listed for VFR and IFR traffic

If that's right, then why is it a VFR NOTAM?

Does that answer it? Would choosing VFR only filter this out for you?

[FlyingForFun]

Re Evo's NOTAM about the removal of the airway - I would suggest that this is relevant to VFR flight, because, if I've understood it correctly, some Class A airspace has been downgraded to Class G, and is therefore now available to us when it wasn't before. Would be nice if the NOTAM was in a format where we could easily understand that, though!

I like Ninja's "plain text" version of the Isle of Man NOTAM, except for the time line. Instead of:

FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45

Why not:

FROM 30 Mar 2004 13:21 TO 1 Jun 2004 05:45

Trying to figure whether 04/06/01 means 4 June 2001, 6 Apr 2001 or 1 Jun 2004 is enough to put anyone off!

FFF
-------------

[RichyRich]

Sorry if you thought I was having a go at EVO, I was just saying that perhaps the Notam popped in because he didn't filter for VFR only.

Turns out that the Notam does appear in a VFR only PIB.

Thanks for turning it into English, FFF.

RR

[eharding]

To follow up on the original posting - the following
associated NOTAM is also significant - someone else
pointed out the L9 downward extension to me yesterday, but
I missed the extension of Class A right the way down
to the surface..until I phoned the AIS info line.

Ref: B0666/04
FIR: EGTT
Code: ACCA
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: Immed. atten. aircraft operators PIB entry Operationally significant for flights
Scope: Aerodrome Enroute
Lower limit (FL): 000
Upper limit (FL): 065
Centre and radius (nm): 5130N00200W012
Parent ICAO: EGDL
Start date/time: 23/04/2004 15:30 UTC
End date/time: 23/04/2004 16:30 UTC
Activity period: null
Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 065
AUS 04-04-0318/1062/AS6

TEMPO CONTROLLED AIRSPACE(CLASS A)ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS

LYNEHAM CTZ/CTR EXTENDED 6NM EAST TO MIMBI FL65/SFC 1530/1630.

CONTROL AUTHORITY LYNEHAM ATC

[Aussie Andy]

BEWARE!

This NOTAM has suddenly appeared indicating a big MIL fast jet exercise from 2000FT to FL240 over vast tracts of the UK, north sea and the channel:NAVW: FROM 04/04/22 10:30 TO 04/05/13 13:30 H2543/04
D)1030-1330
E)AUS 04-04-0321/1077/AS3
TLP MISSION. UP TO 32 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT HIGH ENERGY
MANOEUVRES WI 5322N 00130W 5338N 00030E 5328N 00230E 5237N 00253E
5213N 00235E 5213N 00022W ORIGIN. 5320N 00151E 5230N 00247E 5130N
00200E 5107N 00200E 5107N 00200E 5100N 00127E 5045N 00127E 5006N
00000E 5037N 00040W 5045N 00030W 5041N 00030E ORIGIN. ACFT WILL
REMAIN CLEAR OF REGULATED AIRSPACE BUT MAY BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH
RULES OF AIR. CONTACT 0032 716 81515.
F)2000FT AMSL G)FL240


Here are some pictures depicting the areas outlined above:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/andyhardyuk/pprune/TLP_MISSION_AREA_1.gif

http://members.lycos.co.uk/andyhardyuk/pprune/TLP_MISSION_AREA_2.gif

Clearly this could be an issue for anyone planning a north sea or channel crossing anytime beween yesterday and the 13th of May.... as well as anyone planning to fly above 2000' anywhere in Norfolk and the East Midlands... so watch out!

But why did this appear in my Narrow Route Briefing for a route Benson - Popham - Fairoaks - Blackbushe - Benson?

Andy

[IO540]

This may be a daft question.

I started flying recently, in 2000. Back then, there were no internet-based notam services AFAIK. The flying school had a thick printout of notams pinned to a notice board, which one was supposed to wade through and check every item on every page for relevance. As a result, almost nobody ever looked at it. I never did, for sure. An instructor occassionally did before sending a student off on a solo navex.

Now, one can get notams over the internet (most schools and most airfields still don't have internet facilities freely available, or available at all, but that's another subject) so suddenly lots more people are aware of the subject.

What has really changed though? Did more people bust airshow areas in the past?

These fast jet exercise areas cover vast areas of Class G and I can't help thinking that they are of little practical relevance as a result. They may as well notam the whole of the UK because fast jets can fly anywhere.

A Q for Aussie Andy: how did you plot those areas? It looks like you typed the coordinates into something like Navbox and created a dummy flight plan with them. I know there are websites which offer pictorial representation but one reads a lot of complaints that they cannot always get the required data feed.

[Fly Stimulator]

Andy,

I think you may have overdone the dot-joining and combined what are actually separate bits of affected airspace into much bigger ones.

The is the picture which NotamPlot gives - the relevant bits are both the blue shaded and the red outlined sections:

http://www.theflyingschool.co.uk/NOTAM.jpg


Still gives cross-Channel flyers something to look out for though.

[Aussie Andy]

Hi,

IO540:
On your first question, I think it depends where you trained and the standards enforced:

I also learned in 2000. At my club, BRitish Airways Flying Club at Booker, the NOTAMs were also posted on the wall in big thick printouts.

As students, we were DEFINITELY expected to read these before flight! the instructors encouraged us to do so - and I have no doubt that the CFI would have removed my or my instructor's testicles if he were to even suspect that I had launched on a cross-country navex without reading them..! (Those who know "our John" will know that this is no exageration!)

To make it easier for us, NOTAM which impacted the local area out to say 25NM or so were highlighted and given a number which corresponded with a circle drawn on a chart on the wall nearby. This made it quick and easy for early stage students to make a quick check, and encouraged the habit. As far as I was concerned, it was always normal to walk over to the briefing wall to look at the weather (F214/F215) and NOTAM before flight. I didn't always understand, so would ask instructor before flight to help me understand. We also made a habit of calling the Red Arrows 0500 freephone number too.

Even then - in 2000 - it was possible to get a web-briefing by the way, or to get the NOTAM by fax. I tended to do this before Navex flights while planning them in the week.

So I don't think NOTAM have ever been optional: but I don't think the routine use of NOTAM is taught the same at all schools.

It looks like you typed the coordinates into something like Navbox and created a dummy flight plan with them. Yep, Navbox.

Fly Stimulator - well that looks much more reasonable! I don't doubt NOTAM PLOT - but if you try plotting the actual coordinates given in the NOTAM above on a map, then I think you will come out with the ridiculous shape I have! Maybe the real issue in this case is something going wrong in translation in the AIS system? Can you see the raw input for NOTAM PLOT? Is it different to the text I have above?

Good night all!

Andy :ok:

[Fly Stimulator]

Andy,

Can you see the raw input for NOTAM PLOT?

As follows...



Ref: H2543/04
FIR: EGTT
Code: WELW
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: PIB entry Operationally significant for flights
Scope: Nav Warning
Lower limit (FL): 020
Upper limit (FL): 240
Centre and radius (nm): 5157N00035E113
Parent ICAO: EGTT
Start date/time: 22/04/2004 10:30 UTC
End date/time: 13/05/2004 13:30 UTC
Activity period: 1030-1330


Lower height limit: 020
Upper height limit: 240

AUS 04-04-0321/1077/AS3

TLP MISSION. UP TO 32 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT HIGH ENERGY

MANOEUVRES WI 5322N 00130W 5338N 00030E 5328N 00230E 5237N 00253E

5213N 00235E 5213N 00022W ORIGIN. 5320N 00151E 5230N 00247E 5130N

00200E 5107N 00200E 5107N 00200E 5100N 00127E 5045N 00127E 5006N

00000E 5037N 00040W 5045N 00030W 5041N 00030E ORIGIN. ACFT WILL

REMAIN CLEAR OF REGULATED AIRSPACE BUT MAY BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH

RULES OF AIR. CONTACT 0032 716 81515.





I agree it isn't at all clear how one is meant to tell which subsets of the list of co-ordinates actually bound a complete area. It would be interesting to know what algorithm NotamPlot is applying. Its result does look more reasonable, but if I'd plotted it myself I'd have come up with exactly the same answer as you did.

BTW - must go on another outing once we've cracked these stealth NOTAMs!

[Aussie Andy]

... must go on another outing ... Absolutely! Don't suppose you wanna meet for lunch in Le Havre next Sunday do you? Me and a mate will be flying to Jersey Saturday, then to Laon (Champagne) Sunday May 2nd, via Le Havre Octeville for lunch... Or maybe meet us in Luxembourg for lunch on Monday?

{suppose I should use PM for this... too late!}

Andy :ok:

[Fly Stimulator]

Check your emails!

Since you mention Laon though, I must NOTAM the fact that it contains one of my favourite small French hotels - the Hôtel de la Bannière de France. (http://www.hoteldelabannieredefrance.com/) Excellent restaurant too. :ok:

[DubTrub]

If your Laon is the same Laon that I'm thinking of, a great little walled town atop a hill, then it's well worth a visit. Also the local (was grass) field is very friendly, gliding/fixed wing place.

[IO540]

How come the Notamplot interpretation shows an area which is within the French FIR? Is this a joint UK-French air exercise???

[paulo]

Lots of countries... from a little googling I've sussed that it's training under the auspices of the "Tactical Leadership Programme".

Everyone turns up with loads of flashy kit and goes out to play together. Then again, there is a DA-20 listed for the UK... pity the pilot turning up in that :)

Click on TLP 2004/3 on this TLP enthusiast site (http://www.fas.be.tf/)

Looks like they sent about 20 out on excercise on Thursday.

[Avoiding Action]

I wouldn't worry about the DA-20. Our friends at FRA will always have one ex-mil pilot up front, and an ex-mil nav down the back managing the squiggly amps stuff. Flying with loads of FJs simply won't phase them, and they are rather good at looking after themselves...:eek: ;)

TLP will NOTAM missions all over Europe, and then pick the area with the best weather on the morning of the mission. In my experience, they only pitch up to the UK about once every five times the NOTAM appears.