Am i really gonna have to pay 6 Grand!!!

[Kempus]

Hi!

Well where ever i look in the UK it makes me cry! 6 thousand of the finest UK pounds! Every where i look! Even clubs that offer a "PPL package", they dont include such things as landing fees whcih i should budget a grand and a half on!

I'm not sure what to do as i wanna learn in the UK bu US schools offer it for 2500, obviously not including such things as flights, accom and test fees, but costing no more than say 4-5K all in!

How do UK schools keep in business!!!!!!!!???!!!!!

kempus

[jackyboy]

________________________________

"Am i really gonna have to pay 6 Grand!!!"
________________________________

Nope, probably more !

When you add on the Exam fees, equipment, etc; and the fact that you may not be ready to take your test after 45 hours. (Mine was nearer 70 and I know of people who are over 100 hrs and still havn't taken their test)

You can limit the cost by learning in a C152 and finding a club where the landing fees for where you learn are included in the membership/hire fees. Some will give you a discount for putting half or all of the cost up front.

If you want it, go for it. It's well worth the effort, sweat, tears, tantrums and, of course, the money in the end.

JB

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Am i really gonna have to pay 6 Grand!!! The answer is yes, but you've asked the wrong question. Anybody who's owned their house for a couple of years can raise the mortgage by six grand and not notice the increased monthly payments.

The real question is: can you afford some hundreds of pounds per month to continue flying after you've got your PPL? (Or, are you only wanting to get the PPL to prove to yourself that you can pass the test after which you don't intend to fly any more?)

[Evo]

I agree completely with Gertrude the Wombat.

Six grand is a lot of money. It's also two years' depreciation on a Ford Focus. Puts it in context really, because few people would consider you rich because you can buy a new Ford.

To continue to fly after you have a PPL you're looking at a minimum of a thousand a year after that. That will buy you the minimum hours to keep your licence in a shagged-out club C150, or a more reasonable amount in a PFA aeroplane flying out of a farmstrip - if that's your sort of thing (I like it, but it isn't for everybody so it isn't the solution to the cost of flying that some would have you believe). Flying a more reasonable number of hours a year from a flying club will cost two, three or four thousand a year - so after a few years the cost of the PPL isn't that significant compared to your total spend.

Like the PPL, continuing to fly isn't unaffordable - but for most of us it puts some limits on other things we might like to spend money on. It's just a matter of deciding what your priorities are.

[Genghis the Engineer]

If you want to fly desperately, and £6k is unafordable, then look at it from a slightly different angle.

Lots of people are flying different things, it just happens that the standard certified light aircraft is the conventional route, but far from the only - and most certainly not the cheapest.

(1) There are gliding clubs, where you fly as you can afford it, spend a lot of time around airfields, and instead of simply going for a licence are part of a continuous progression of improvement.

(2) Learn to fly a microlight. £6k will buy you an NPPL(M) course and a basic 2-seat aeroplane, which will then cost less than a quarter to run what a typical club Cessna will to hire.

(3) Ignore the JAR PPL (it's mainly a stepping stone to a commercial licence anyway) and do the NPPL(SEP), which will cost nearer £4k if you've a reasonable aptitude.

(4) Do (2), then if microlights don't satisfy you, move onto (3) where you'll get credit for most of your microlight training.

(5) Do any of the above, learning to fly in the UK relatively (note relatively!) cheaply, then if you want the group A licence, do a cheap course in Florida to upgrade later.

(6) Buy a basic PFA homebuilt for around £6k, then add another £2k to do your PPL in it. You're then £8k down, but own an aeroplane and can always get that £6k back if you give up.

(7) Do a course in Florida, then come back and add another £1k or so learning properly how to fly in British airspace.


There's nothing wrong with the "mainstream" route (apart from the cost, which is largely to do with the UK economic environment - don't blame the schools), but don't let anybody brainwash you into believing that it's the only route.


I'd suggest, seriously, that you go and spend a day or so each around the nearest glider and microlight schools, buy a lesson or two at each, and then decide how you feel about spending £6k.

G

[paulo]

Lots of good ideas from Ghengis, and I think Evo is painting a slightly too pessimistic picture re: renting the shagged out 152... there's a small but growing number of clubs offering smart little 2 seat robins for about the same money. (C'mon Evo! Tsk tsk ;) )

And if you don't quite make the hours, it's not like the nasty man at the CAA snatches your license away - you just go up with an examiner for an hour and do basic handling stuff. I paid £70 to do that option last year.

[Evo]

Evo is painting a slightly too pessimistic picture re: renting the shagged out 152...there's a small but growing number of clubs offering smart little 2 seat robins for about the same money.


Yeah, that's true (although round these parts 12 hours in a Robin would cost a bit more than a grand).

[BEagle]

A bit difficult to post without appearing to be soliciting for trade, but we charge way less than £100 (chock-to-chock) for a Warrior II plus instructor. No exam fees for the first attempt, no landing fees at base aerodrome, no headsets to pay for, no groundschool fees - but the downside is that our FIs are part-time volunteers, so booking lessons can sometimes present difficulties as it's a question of 'will there be someone available'.

The only way to keep costs low is to rely upon part-time volunteers who are happy to get some flying but don't rely on using it to pay their mortgage - just covering expenses and paying to take their other half out for dinner, perhaps. Regrettably it's a fact of modern life that there aren't many people who are able to give up their spare time to instruct because of pressures on their 'day job' and the ever-increasing (thank you, JAA...) cost of maintaining licence and rating. Having to pay £150+ every 6 months for our Class 1 medical being a case in point...

I have part-time FIs from a variety of backgrounds - a bank manager, engineer, airline pilots both active and retired, military pilots both active and retired, an airline purser, an automotive engineer, an IT software engineeer - all sorts of folk. But if I had to set up 'commercially' with 4 a/c and some full-time FIs, I'd be charging the same as every other school, I guess. We're non-profit making, so 'The Management' (me) don't add their profit element - which helps!

There's a reasonable chance that the impetus of the NPPL may precipitate changes in the whole PPL training world. The experienced part-time PPL/FI might reappear again in larger numbers. That should help to make PPL flying more affordable, with luck!

[Genghis the Engineer]

But the point there BEagle, is that you are not part of a school - you are part of a club. Something that thankfully still exists in aviation, but seems to be harder to find the bigger the engine !

G

[Ian_Wannabe]

Jacky Boy said.... "Some will give you a discount for putting half or all of the cost up front"

You're probably not stupid, but i'll say this anyway....

I went and paid £2k up front at my old flying school with the promise that i'd be saving around £500 - which included landing fees and membership etc..

Unfortunatly I didnt finish the PPL there because of weather and a crappy unorganised school and so when I moved to Leeds I joined another flying club.

The problem here was, that I hadnt finished all my hours at the old school and so the owner/devil asked us to pay everything full price, then he kept my money for months on end and refused to pay me. None of the "if you leave early you have to pay full price" was mentioned when he welcomed us with an open bank account....

My lesson learnt - dont pay up front unless you're 110% sure they're trustworthy, and/or you have EVERYTHING in writing.

Be careful, most clubs are great - but there are some owners who are in it for the profit

Good luck

[Sensible]

Beagle, it’s a bit difficult accusing you of soliciting business since you don’t even give a clue to your location. Be assured that there would be a very deep path beaten to your door if you were to disclose it. My 1hr revalidation flight at Shoreham recently cost me nearly £160 including warrior for 1 Hr. instructor and landing fee.

The hourly rate for a Warrior in the South seems to be around £100 per hour plus landing fee plus VAT

So where is it that you operate from?

[witchdoctor]

Hey Kempus,

I hope you're not doing your PPL with the intention of becoming an airline pilot someday. If you think the costs are bad now, I guess you'll be looking to jump off Beachy Head when you see how much of that lovely cash you need to hand over to get just the necessary licence, let alone the tiny odds of actually landing a paid job at the end of it all.:ooh:

[bluskis]

Even everything in writing won't protect you when the school goes broke, and it could happen to the biggest, so the advice must be it is a dangereous way to save on costs.

[shortstripper]

I agree with Gengis in that you can consider many ways to gain a PPL. I did it "unconventionally" ... it took me about three years but cost very very little and only about 30 hrs of power flying.

As for maintaining your PPL ... ask yourself how much the average 20 a day smoker spends out? ... funny thing is, even the poorest seem to manage this habit and accept the cost. People don't tend to say "smoking, yikes ... that's SOOOOOOOO EXPENSIVE!", they just think about the health risk, but nobody seems to bats a eyelid at the cost. Mention flying and they do say "Yikes ... that's SOOOOOOOO EXPENSIVE!" ... they often point out the percieved health risk too? something about crashing?? :hmm:

SS :ok:

[Flying Lawyer]

Sensible

Finding the phone number of the 'Brize Norton Flying Club' might be a good move. ;)


FL

[Sensible]

Thanks for that FL, unfortunately it's a bit far for me but the aircraft look good.

http://www.qsl.net/g3tso/Aviation%20Page%203.html

[Sir George Cayley]

Is the Brize Norton Flying Club affiliated to the larger Betty Windsor Flying Club and Low Level Sortie Group?


Sir George Cayley

[Whirlybird]

There's a nother way of looking at it....

Can you afford around £100 a week, maybe a bit more these days? To have something to do at weekends that you look forward to all week? Something that's fun, and a challenge, and a social occasion too?

Everyone says don't just book one lesson a week, because It'll take you longer to get your PPL. That's probably true. But does it matter? It also means you have something to look forward to, that isn't costing you a fortune, that just becomes a part of your normal social life. You have time to do the ground exams, without huge amount so of pressure.

Sure, you'll miss some lessons due to bad weather. but you haven't paid for them, so then you can think about maybe having two lessons a week when the weather gets better. And if it takes you longer to get your PPL, so what? What will you do while you're a student? Answer - fly. What will you do when you have your PPL? Answer - fly? And probably wonder what you should do next, and think about further qualifications and ratings, because the novelty of boring holes in the sky starts to wear a bit thin.

Don't think about the total cost. Think about whether you can afford £100+ a week for a fun day out. And if you weren't flying on that day, you'd probably be spending the money doing something else.

I did my PPL(A) that way and I still think it's a good idea. :ok:

[BEagle]

That was an interesting link, Sensible - especially the amateur radio parts! Amazing how young a certain PPRuNer looked in 1965! And there's even someone using an old ex-Army 'Wireless Set no 12' like the one I used to wrestle with at around the same time!

[Dr Jekyll]

Interesting thoughts Whirlybird, but my attitude is quite the opposite.

A few thousand pounds to achieve a lifetime ambition doesn't sound too bad. Stick the money in a special "flying" account when you start and from then on you don't feel you're spending anything.

£100+ a week, £433+ a month, month after month on the other hand sounds crippling. Think of taxiing in on a murky day after one of those depressing lessons where you mucked up stuff you were doing fine a few weeks ago, then thinking, "that miserable hour cost me £100, what else could I have done with the money?"

[Sensible]

BEagle, If the photo's are circa 1965 then the condition of the aircraft may have changed somewhat since then! How about a direction to a more recent link?

[Charlie Zulu]

Beagle,

The 1965 theory has just been busted by checking the build year of G-BNRG in one of the photos... the CAA G-INFO Database states 1981!!!!

However I guess you meant the photos on http://www.qsl.net/g3tso/Pictures.html

:)

[Kempus]

Hi!

Thanks for all your replies guys. The majority seem to agree that its gonna cost me a fair whack! I am looking to go professional but should that all go brown side up i would really love to be able to afford flying as a hobby, may it be an expensive one at that!

Every month i do happen to have a couple of hundred quid burning a hole but only enough for say a lesson per month. Anyone advise getting a loan over a short period say five years so the capital is there?

kempus

[G SXTY]

I’d try and fly a bit more than 1 hour per month, or you might find that half your lesson is spent relearning skills that have now gone rusty.

Everyone is different, but I’d suggest a lesson every fortnight should be the absolute minimum.

[shortstripper]

Back to what Gengis said...

If you have a couple of hundred a month to spend, my advice would be to save five or six hundred and do a one or two week gliding course in the summer at a club near to you. This should easily get you to solo standard. Spend that couple of hundred each month by gliding every week if you can. You should easily make bronze C within the year which (I think ... the rules may have changed) gets you about 15 or 20 hrs off a PPL, and teaches you LOADS! save over the following winter then either go NPPL or JAR PPL or even Stateside and hit the PPL training hard next summer.

I know this seems a bit long winded but you'll be all the better equipped to quickly and easily do your PPL for the experience.

SS

[S-Works]

Gliding is not everyones cup of tea. It is somewhat restrictive in terms of actually being able to go anywhere and involves a lot of 3 and 4 minute flights at most winch launched clubs followed by a lot of pushing and shoving of gliders. Getting aero tows sees the price rise steeply but still presents the same limitations on travel.

A lot of people want to learn to fly to go places, carry pax and generally enjoy the fun of powered flight.

I don't think telling someone to forget a PPL (short or long term)and learn to glide instead is very good advice. A lot of people start to glide realise it involves a great deal of commitment towards the chosen club to be able to get any decent flying and give up. Usually never bothering to try powered flight instead. I have seen this happen many times.

And no this is not a bias on gliding, as a 20 year glider pilot both RAFGA and BGA I love gliding but I think you are overrating its value here.

[BeauMan]

Kempus,

First the negative comment - Yes, it IS expensive.

Now the rest of what I want to say - If your dream is to go commercial one day, I think you owe it to yourself to make the absolute best effort to achieve it. How will you feel if, in ten years time, you look back at this moment and wish you'd gone for it?

If fulfilling your dream means making sacrifices, then so be it.

If you drive a nice car, think about selling it and getting something a bit smaller or older. If you're a home owner, as Gertrude the Wombat says, realise some of the equity. Cut down on the beer or fags if those are applicable.

Cancel some of your Friday or Saturday nights on the lash, and sit at home with the PPL Confuser. You'll save money and gain vital knowledge at the same time.

If your chosen club / school aren't flying on a particular day, due to weather for example, still make the effort to go there, spend the hour sitting in the aeroplane running through cockpit procedures and drills, or talking to the older hands. You'll be amazed at how much you can learn, and how much easier it makes your next flight!

Immerse yourself in aviation. Revel in the knowledge that every time you fly, you are doing something that we, as mere human beings, aren't designed to do. You're raising two fingers up to Mother Nature, sticking your tongue out, and blowing a raspberry at her.

Even if you never make it to the comercial world (although I hope that you do!), surely that feeling alone will have been worth paying for? :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Now where did Kempus ever say that he wanted to be a commercial pilot?

For that matter if he did, why would be be posting in the private flying forum?

G

[left_hand_drive]

Genghis, Kempus mentioned in his last post that

Sorry, finger trouble! Kempus mentioned that he is looking to go professional. I think that's something most PPL's aspire to but as a mere PPL(A), I just enjoy the fun aspect of flying while I gain more experience. I would love to go commercial as I'm sure most other PPL's would but the financial restrictions tend to hold us back :(

If you can Kempus, try and get in with an RAF Flying Club. It will save you a few quid, otherwise the gliding route is an excellent way in!

LHD :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Oh yes, so he did I missed that.

Nonetheless, this is the private flying forum and I think that discussion on going professional really does belong elsewhere - unless it's directly related to the professions supporting private flying.

Mind you I think that you're wrong - most PPLs in my experience aspire to enjoying their flying safely, and not to being commercial pilots. It just happens that many (not all!) flying instructors aspire to being commercial pilots and they perhaps tend to assume that everybody else does as well.

G

Professional supporting private flying, no desire to be a commercial pilot either.

[Send Clowns]

Sensible - £100 per hour plus VAT and landing fee is a little steep, even for the south coast. You should be able to get it for that even at a commercial club at a large commercial airfield with a landing card. Obviously the two companies I work for both could offer around that price which is how I know, but the intention is not to advertise because there are many that are similar price or cheaper. Force the people who sell you services to compete!

Interestingly the dual rate at £160 is not too bad. I think that the club you used may also be underpaying the instructors, as most do :*

That is one consideration when people are concerned at the cost of flight training. Remember you are paying an instructor as little as £6.25 per hour, in one club I know of (£12.50 per flying hour, takes about 2 hours work to fly an hour), for a very seasonal job that required £40,000 worth of self-sponsored training! We are all, to a degree, volunteers. I have so far only been paid for flying a tiny fraction of what I have paid out.

[Kempus]

hi guys!

Sorry if you think my post should be elsewhere. I do eventually intend to go comercial but there are many reasons why i may not be able to do that and in the meantime would like to be able to gain my PPL and be able to afford to fly! That's my main concern!

I work for an airline at the mo cos i love the buzz of being in the air and would like to take it further by being able to control an aircraft.

Some of the ideas and tips are great and i hope they keep coming!

cheers!

kempus

[BEagle]

CZ and Sensible - the ac shots are from June 2000. The late afternoon/early evening of 7 June 2000, to be exact. I know that very well - because I flew as photo chase and took that photo of the 4-ship (over Hook Norton, British West Oxfordshire) and I also designed the paint scheme! It's 'flag blue' and 'solar gold' - the work was done by Mick Allan at Turwesty (and earlier at Spanhoe).

'twas the amateur radio photos from 1965 to which I was referring!

[scubawasp]

Kempus

Check your PMs

[Thirty06]

And what about touring motor gliders ?

A lot of gliding clubs have a motor Falke around the place which can cost about half the cost of a spam can. A lot of the early PPl training is just getting used to the controls and making it go where you want to.

According to the Derek Piggot books I've read, people aspiring to fly gliders might be well advised to get some powered experience so that they can learn the basic handling skills since you don't get much time to do this in early glider training.

TMGs are used by glider clubs to extend flights and to give the opportunity for touch and goes to consolidate landing technique. Apart from that, they tend to be a little unloved because glider pilots think that they're poor gliders and powered pilots scarcely know that they exist.

Whilst I consider gliding a fine and excellent form of aviation, I gave up trying that as a route because the early training is actually more expensive than powered on an hourly basis. Now that I've got a PPL I might return since I believe thatI'd be excused the fifty flights before solo that are normally compulsory.

My PPL cost about 5500 GBP including 63.5 hours flying.The test fee and land aways cost extra as did any training materials . The school I used has put its fees up, but I think they're still reasonable. If you're a more able student than me (probably) then you could be looking at less than five thousand.

I think it's worth choosing a training organisation that doesn't require extra fees for landings at the home field because the cost of circuit training could really stack up if you do a lot of touch and goes. I didn't have to pay extra for landings, nor was there a charge for exams.

[MLS-12D]

Whilst I consider gliding a fine and excellent form of aviation, I gave up trying that as a route because the early training is actually more expensive than powered on an hourly basis.There is certainly some truth to this, and I think that a large grain of salt should be taken with claims that gliding/soaring is much cheaper than powered flying. Sometimes it's cheaper, sometimes it's more expensive ... there are quite a few variables.

I also agree with Bose-X that learning to fly gliders is probably an inefficient first step for someone who aspires to become a commercial airplane pilot. Personally I enjoy the social aspects that come from all of the waiting around of the soaring world, but it is not for everyone, particularly someone with limited time.

Much of my own flying is inexpensive, because I fly my gliding club towplane and instruct in gliders: both are unpaid positions, but offer 'free' flying. But of course there really is no such thing as a free lunch. I don't mind occasionally paying to rent an aircraft, as the freedom to go off where you want, when you want, is priceless.

[Sans Anoraque]

Kempus,

I haven't trawled through the other pages so this may have been said before, but the only people who pay £6000+ are people with more money than sense. With the exchange rate as it is at the moment, if you go to the States for 3 weeks you can go from total ab-intio to JAA PPL with night rating for around £3,000 including your flight over. This includes everything you'll need and no, it's not necessary to do the exams or spend any money before you go. When you return, you'll need a couple of hours of UK 'acclimitisation' (I needed 4) and then you can rent/buy a share while other people spend up to three times as much and take 50 times as long.

Ignore all the 'if you want to fly in the UK, you should do your license in the UK' comments because they're total rubbish. Check out schools in the US (or even Canada and S Africa) via pprune and book your ticket.

Re flying when you get back - I pay £45pm and £45ph (for 6 hours pm - that's the cost of my former smoking habit) for a 4-seat Piper in the South of England - it's possible to do it even cheaper.

[24Right]

Go to a club that doesn't charge so much (i.e. oop north) like I did. My school currently charges £75 per hour dual in a (well maintained) C150, incl VAT, landings etc. At 45 hours that's £3375, plus your ground school, exams etc, so should be doable at around £4500.

Still a lot, but not 6 grand.:D

[shortstripper]

Now that I've got a PPL I might return since I believe thatI'd be excused the fifty flights before solo that are normally compulsory.

eh? is this something new? I went solo on gliders at around 3 hrs and 32 flights from being a non flyer ... it was 1986 though.

SS

[Boing_737]

Beagle,
Has the PA28 that suffered at the hands (or jetwash) and a Tupolev recovered yet? (Friend of mine from work who used to be in the Signals flew with BNFC - BTW I always assumed it was a forces only club - if civvies are allowed can I come and play if and when I move to Oxon?)

Kempus,
The flying clubs darn sarf are bleedin expensive, but, I have to say that the one I fly from seems very good - the aircraft are getting better as they get newer (no such thing as a new aircraft in the UK as far as I can see), and a mate of mine flies from the other, slightly more northerly one, and that seems good as well by all accounts. They always seem to quote for a package that looks quite good, but bear in mind that you may well need more than 45 hours to complete your JAR PPL(A), and so this is where the additional costs come in. Not to mention the Gucci headset, kneeboard and other paraphenalia that you "must have to be a proper pilot".

Money saving tip - don't buy CAP413 from your club - download it from the CAAs website. Its only a couple of quid, but every penny counts....

[MLS-12D]

Go to a club that doesn't charge so much (i.e. oop north) like I did. My school currently charges £75 per hour dual in a (well maintained) C150, incl VAT, landings etc. At 45 hours that's £3375, plus your ground school, exams etc, so should be doable at around £4500.24Right assumes that a student gets to the checkride with only 45 hours of combined dual and solo time. This is certainly possible, if one has reasonable aptitude, good instruction, and undergoes training on a regular basis. Unfortunately, those criteria are not always present. In particular, poor weather, limited cash, other personal commitments, and unavailability of instructor or aircraft often combine to stretch training out over a prolonged period, so that much material has to be relearned. Most honest flying schools or instructors will confirm that the average time to a PPL is closer to 60 hours than 45; and one would be prudent to budget accordingly.

Sans Anoraque: With the nonsensical red tape imposed post 9/11, taking instruction in Canada, S. Africa or Australia would be more hassle-free than the good ole USA. Yes, hurdles in the States are surmountable, but why bother?

[BEagle]

Boing_737, yes, G-BNRG was repaired a while ago now and is as good as she ever was despite being almost written off by that cretin in the Il-76 who, having been told to stop by the marshaller due to his dangerously fast taxiing speed, proceeded then to firewall his engines when being parked in a petulant gesture. Barsteward caused over £40k worth of damage and their crooked insurance in Moscow refused to pay! In the end we were about £8k out of pocket...

RAF Flying Clubs may, at the discretion of the Club, accept up to 50% of their members as 'associates' - this includes plain vanilla civvies if there's a free slot. So the answer to your question is yes, you could join if you so chose. Of course there'd be a background security check due to the BZ Club's location on MoD property.

Some people manage to get through the course in about the minimum time - I've recently flown a Skill Test on an excellent pilot who had 45:10 hours by the end of the test! That was in Feb/Mar as well!!