flags of convenience

[toon]

Anyone know how many foreign registered aircraft are 'based' at uk airports ?
Is anything being done to curb the importing of crews and 'tf' registered a/c into our market's in the summer ? flying with non caa flight time limitations etc etc.
We daily read on here about cash strapped companies on the verge of collapse but we seem quite lax to the fact that these companies are operating in the same market but not on the same platform.
How about we all go to Iceland !!!

[Boss Raptor]

Nothing u can do about TF- as they are in the EU and so not operating in the UK as 'Flag of Convenience' they have a genuine right to be here and operate here - the fact that u may argue about different standards across the EU/JAA is another matter

For a real 'Flag of Convenience' op look at MK Airlines out of Manston with 9G- Ghana registered DC8's and B747 running to anywhere but Ghana on Fifth Freedom rights - and no DETR dont seem to curb their activities/fifth freedom traffic rights - can only assume that not enough UK cargo operators left to complain therefore the likes of MK ironically get the Fifth Freedom rights as no UK operator available to do the same job :uhoh:

Go ahead - anyone in the UK can re-register in Iceland, Ireland whatever as long as it's EU and run without restriction

[toon]

mmmmm, good point, is it all one way though ? does 5th freedom rights really mean lets all go and work in the uk market ?

Does anyone know if there are really any mass uk operators in iceland ?
just concerned that airlines in this country will adopt the , if they can't beat um, join um attitude, and they will and we will all be out of a job.

[Boss Raptor]

Fifth Freedom rights will be given by DETR where there is no objection and/or possibility that the flight can be operated by a UK operator...chicken and egg...UK operator can't hope to compete against the likes of the 9G- for so many reasons, CAA charges, taxes etc. etc. and therefore few start ups to compete with the 'Flag of Convenience' boys...and on...

[BEagle]

I was a victim of one of these 'flag of convenience' operators when one of their idiots caused £40K+ of damage to my property. Depsite several witnesses, they refused to admit it was their fault and their dubious Moscow-based insurance company refused even to reply. In the end I was £10K out of pocket after loss-adjustments, insurers and repairs had been sorted out...

This was an ac belonging to one 'airline', 'operated' by an intemediary with whom the task had been 'placed' by another under contract from someone else. The ac was registered in the Baltic states and 'insured' (hah) in Russia...but based in the UK.

Gods know what will happen when this bunch join the EU after 1 May.........

Why oh why is the CAA such an ineffective and spinless organisation when it comes to dealing with these fly-by-night flag of convenience scammers?

[WorkingHard]

Beagle - "Why oh why is the CAA such an ineffective and spinless organisation "
When it comes to the small business GA operators I can assure you that this is far from true. They only take on the "little" guys that may not have the clout to fight back.

[CR2]

Er, since when is Iceland in the EU? Have I missed something here?

[smartercharter]

The point that they are EU only makes it "legal" for them to trounce around EU countries. It is my understanding that if say a "TF" reg a/c wanted to op LGW/DXB with a traffic load from the UK - this flight would be subject to traffic rights. If any UK carriers objected (in which case they must have appropriate capacity and competitive price) the flight would not be allowed to happen, or a royalty must be paid.

These TF a/c seem to come in on block permits........and no one has obviously objected and taken the authorities on.

Very questionable if you ask me, especially as there are a good few people out of work on B747`s currently from a UK operation, due to this operator being allowed to fly transatlantic.

Oh well :ugh:

[Flypuppy]

Ratty,

Iceland is part of the European Economic Area (EEA).

The Agreement creating the European Economic Area was negotiated between the Community and seven member countries of the EFTA and signed in May 1992. Subsequently one of these (Switzerland) decided after a referendum not to participate, and three others joined the Union. The EEA Agreement entered into force on 1 January 1994.

The EEA was maintained because of the wish of the three remaining - Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein - to participate in the Single Market, while not assuming the full responsibilities of membership of the EU. The Agreement gives them the right to be consulted by the Commission during the formulation of Community legislation, but not the right to say in the decision-making, which is kept exclusively for Member States. All new Community legislation in areas covered by the EEA is integrated into the Agreement through a Joint Committee Decision and subsequently made part of the national legislation of the EEA EFTA States. Through the double impact of this participation in the decision shaping and this close integration of Community acquis into their national laws, the EEA EFTA States are, of all the countries associated with the Union, technically the most closely linked to it. Politically their "arms length" policy distinguishes them from the Candidate countries, which, for the time being, have not integrated the Community legislation into their national law but are committed to do so in all policy areas.

The Agreement is concerned principally with "four freedoms - freedom of movement of goods (but agriculture and fisheries are included in the Agreement only to a very limited extent), freedom of movement of persons, of services and of capital. Horizontal provisions relevant to these four freedoms in the areas of Social Policy, Consumer Protection, Environment, Company Law and Statistics complete the extended Internal Market. It is in these areas that the EEA EFTA States take over the Union's rules.

[Boss Raptor]

Sorry yes that's what I meant Iceland not EU but EEA...hence the right to operate from UK

[CR2]

Yep, but that isn't the EU.

Anyway, never mind. Back to the topic.

[thegypsy]

CR2

It is bad enough having to allow all EU countries the right to invade these shores. Yet countries like Iceland and Norway who are not in the EU get the same rights as well. This invasion is mostly one way. Just wait until May 1st when more countries join the EU.

[LGW Vulture]

Those in the EEA are given the same flying rights as those in the EU. ;)

[FougaMagister]

At the end of the day, these companies provide services that home-grown outfits won't (or can't) - re. the problems at EAAC, British World going bust a few years ago, etc. I agree that a company that is based in the UK (or any other EU/JAA member State for that matter) should have its a/c registered there.

I'm less confident in Ghana CAA supervision than in the British equivalent (even though obviously CAA inspectors can inspect foreign-reg. aircraft from time to time).

However, let's not paint everyone with the same brush: at BHX we happen to work with Islandsflug (who operate 737-400s on some Ryanair services) and they are a very professional outfit.

[toon]

FougaMagister, thats my point, home grown companies can't compete because they are not on a level playing field.

Chartering in aircraft from iceland etc does nothing for the economy of this country and lets face it, it is all one sided, gatwick is full of 'tf' registrations, take excel , competing in the same markets as the established uk carriers who all have pension schemes, taxes to pay etc etc, by all accounts a very good company to work for but shrink to nought in the winter !

Balpa and caa should be onto this one before we are all on the dss.

just a thought.

[SLFguy]

Balpa and caa should be onto this one before we are all on the dss.

Oh and here's me thinking this was about safety!

[BOTFOJ]

Aren't Air Atlanta going to be operating these charters on their Air Atlanta Europe (EUK) British registered AOC? If so whats your bitch?

[Flightrider]

Well if that's what you say is happening, it must be true.

[canadair]

Flag of Convenience huh?
well just curious how many now ex EAAC pilots/ FE`s went to the AAE open day last weekend, and how many have taken / been offered jobs?
pretty "convenient" for them is`nt it?
you cannot have it both ways boys, on the one hand scream protectionism, and then ask for a job with them when it suits you!

[Algy]

This is educational regarding the official UK view:

http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/publicationdetails.asp?id=1258

[Big Tudor]

The situation is likely to get worse with the introduction of EU FTL's. As it stands at the moment, the limitations on FTL under the EU proposal are far less restrictive than the UK CAP371 limits, however there is a caveat at the top of the paper which allows member states to impose their own limits above & beyond the EU ones. What will happen, the CAA will overlay EU FTL's with CAP371 and the status quo remains in the UK. However, if you are registered in (for example) Ireland, the limits you are operating to, even with EU FTL, are far less restrictive than UK limits. So, what is to stop any other airline doing the same as FR and basing themselves in a country with more business friendly FTLs and operating out of any EU / EEA country that you want to.

[CargoOne]

BEagle

Sorry, I didn't catch your message. How they damaged your property? Crashed airplane into your house or spreaded jet fuel over your golf course or what? Sounds strange to me as long as you talking as a private person...

[WHBM]

Don't MyTravel have a UK-registered 757 based in Helsinki, Finland for charters to The Canaries ?

[Timothy]

Surely in numerical terms the largest, and fastest growing, flag of convenience on UK airfields is the N reg?

Timothy

[JJflyer]

Yes. MyTravel has had B757's flying out of Helsinki, Finland as well as other UK carriers

I find it disgusting that these "Flags of convenience" aircraft and operators are allowed to operate out of Finland and taking jobs away from local pilots.
Furthermore our standards up in the north are much higher than UK CAA can maintain and that just rips my heart out.

And the worst thing is that all of this does nothing to contribute to our economy.

I am amazed that EU has, for quite some time, allowed UK registered orange coloured jets to operate around continental Europe flying between countries other than UK.

JJ

[longstay]

mmmm, good reading algy but of course that is what it would say, but the reality is that if we have the work here in the uk then why do we have so many unemployed new pilots ?

we are churning out frozen atpl/ir newbies from the schools who can't get jobs yet we have airports full of N / TF registered a/c that seem to 'appear' every summer ?

[055166k]

Well why not consider the big picture as well...is EI- a flag of convenience?

[Algy]

Purely my personal opinion, but I have to say it's hard to disagree with JJFlyer...or the CAA for that matter. Liberalisation has generated very substantial numbers of pilots' jobs in Europe, and elsewhere for that matter.

Do you seriously imagine that the sort of growth that has occurred in European air transport over the last decade would have happened without liberalisation?

The notion that any one country is stealing another country's pilot workforce's jobs is just loony tunes.

Now, what will happen with EU/US, if and when that ever comes about is a whole other story. My guess is that labour liberalisation will be the last element of the whole picture to be fixed, and that history suggests pilots will be the last of the last!

[JJflyer]

Algy... Nice to see that you noted that "Slight" sarcasm in my last post.

I agree that free competition has actually created more jobs in Europe than it has taken. UK for one has more pilot jobs available than all the Nordic countries combined.

Having never flown professionally for a Finnish carrier and having done my whole career so far as an expat, I am a firm believer in free movement of labour and free competition between companies.

One can't have it both ways. Either a country (UK for example) is a part of EU and takes the benefits, but risks othesr moving into their market or is not part of EU. In the latter model one would not be seeing Easyjet or other UK carriers operating in continental Europe or say Astraeus operating for an Icelandic low fares carrier.

JJ

[Flybob]

Bit of a mute point really,
AAE (EUK) have a UK AOC. 747s going on this as we speak. 767s already on it therefore they abide by all the rules you do! And they come fully under the guidance of the UK CAA. End of story.
Prior to this 5th freedom clause 10 was excercised, as this avenue looks to be closing up this made a UK AOC a must. ergo..
AAI is fully JAR compliant and meets the requirements laid out in that legislation the same as most of the rest of Europe!
Excel will do most of crewing / planning and as such to UK standards!
Vast majority of EUK crew will be UK people on UK contracts paying UK tax, simple as that!
AAE have been activley trying to employ as many UK based people as possible including ex European crews. (now thats a good thing)
The deal is not the best in the world but it is a job and a fairly secure one in these uncertain times.
So before you go making a fuss I suggest you get your facts straight.
Well said canadair, bit antagonistic as usual though!! See you soon!

[GK430]

If you can't beat them..........I don't hear anyone moaning in the same vein about Ryanair operating EI- registered a/c out of European Hubs.

Well said FougaM, Islandsflug totally professional with some great Tech Crews from a state airline that went bump. Can you blame them for finding re-employment?

[Jetset320]

Isn't Astraeus doing in Iceland, exactly the same thing the Icelandics are doing in the UK?
http://www.icelandexpress.com/displayer.asp?cat_id=119

Actually on the gauge set by previous posts, it's 'worse', as Excel's pilots are mainly British!


http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=101454

[stormin norman]

In the past few weeks FLS has gone to the wall at STN/MAN
with 400+ uk jobs gone.EAAC has lost 500+ and the Britannia
engineering base is up for sale,with the work likely to go overseas.
The CAA is set to significantly downsize as a large proportion of there work goes into europe.What next an EU registration?

[411A]

Ha!

British airlines will never be able to compete with foreign aircarriers for two very simple reasons.

1. British management.
Nopay for the employees because they (management) are stealing it all for themselves.
Latest example, EAAC.

-or-

2. British employees.
Altho some are rather well paid, they go on strike for flimsy reasons, and are absent from duty rather a lot.
Latest example, BA.

IF these two problems could be solved on a permanent basis, British aviation would have a more level playing field, and be much more successful.

Don't hold your breath...it ain't likely to happen anytime soon.

[BEagle]

Well CargoOne, one of their scruffy old heaps came roaring down the taxiway at such a speed that the marshaller, concerned for safety, signalled it to stop. When permitted to continue, the petulant idiot driving it whacked open the throttles so much that he blew over one of the aeroplanes which I 'own' (as 50% shareholder in the company) parked over 100 yards away with brakes on and controls secured. It was turned upside down and very badly damaged; as this entirely avoidable incident was caused by the hand of a third party, our claim was against the east European bunch who operated the aeroplane. But they refused to own up to their actions and hid behind a wall of holding comapnies and a dubious insurer who refused to behave in a reasonable manner with our own insurance company.

However, I think that these cheap and nasty bottom of the barrel cowboys are now out of business. And a good thing too!!

[opsgeezer]

411A

On point two - perhaps a little unfair.

I seem to spend considerably more time dealing with various French, Spanish, Italian, Greek etc etc ATC strikes and ground handling strikes than I do with UK industrial action.

No, the Brits may not be perfect but by and large I'd suggest there are worse offenders out there than us!

(That said - I'd struggle to argue too much with point one!!!)

[411A]

opsgeezer,

You may well be right, considering some of the news from the 'mainland' lately.

Concerning BA, I was refering to the recent industrial action by ground staff at LHR, and their inability to prove they actually showed up on time...or at all.

If you take a look at British aviation over the last 40 years or so, many smaller companies have come and gone inspite of rather hard working pilots and ground engineering folks.
Management frittering away opportunities or, in some cases, outright theft (or to be more slightly politically correct, diversion of assets) has led to non-payment of landing/handling/fuel/overflight/outsourced maintenance/spares (the list goes on and on) charges, with the resultant failure of the company, leaving aforementioned hard working employees high and dry.
Likewise, this side of the pond, in case you think I am being overly unfair about British aviation in general.
Some new 'investors' in airline companies, seeing the opportunistic avenues available for creative financing, have driven some companies straight to the wall, in rather short order.

There outta be a law!:sad:

[sixmilehighclub]

Well thank god other management in airlines don't divert mass funds into certain bottom-of-the-points-table Formula One racing teams without thinking ahead first.

Just unfortunate they didnt foresee losing the TCD contract to AAE, and their crew along with it.

Just hope all the hardworking staff who have lost their jobs don't suffer for their managements' inconsiderate and amateur actions and decisions.

[JJflyer]

GK430. You don't hear Irish moaning about "Foreigners taking our jobs" or wanting to protect the market, but at the same time be able to work anywhere...Many English pilots seem to want this.


I have nothing against G-reg aircraft flying between countries in EU, but one just cant have one way street anymore.

JJ

[Big Tudor]

Ah 411A. Just as I was about to rant forth about the Frank Lorenzo's of the world, you step in and graciously admit that US management ethics leave a lot to be desired as well. :hmm:

[smartercharter]

411A.....just a few points:

1. If the US management are such superstars and you all seem to get it soooooo right........how comes just about all of the US market has been or are in Chapter 11?

2. AV8 as it stands is a wet-lease operation and a such not an airline. The decision not to roll into their own airline in April is a decison not to start.......not to go skint!

I wonder how many of our UK airlines that have come and gone would still be here now if they were able to open the bottom draw and pull out the old Chapter 11 chestnut.

Or am I being unfair?