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flags of convenience

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flags of convenience

Old 24th Mar 2004, 07:10
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Thumbs down flags of convenience

Anyone know how many foreign registered aircraft are 'based' at uk airports ?
Is anything being done to curb the importing of crews and 'tf' registered a/c into our market's in the summer ? flying with non caa flight time limitations etc etc.
We daily read on here about cash strapped companies on the verge of collapse but we seem quite lax to the fact that these companies are operating in the same market but not on the same platform.
How about we all go to Iceland !!!
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 07:27
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Nothing u can do about TF- as they are in the EU and so not operating in the UK as 'Flag of Convenience' they have a genuine right to be here and operate here - the fact that u may argue about different standards across the EU/JAA is another matter

For a real 'Flag of Convenience' op look at MK Airlines out of Manston with 9G- Ghana registered DC8's and B747 running to anywhere but Ghana on Fifth Freedom rights - and no DETR dont seem to curb their activities/fifth freedom traffic rights - can only assume that not enough UK cargo operators left to complain therefore the likes of MK ironically get the Fifth Freedom rights as no UK operator available to do the same job

Go ahead - anyone in the UK can re-register in Iceland, Ireland whatever as long as it's EU and run without restriction
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 07:36
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mmmmm, good point, is it all one way though ? does 5th freedom rights really mean lets all go and work in the uk market ?

Does anyone know if there are really any mass uk operators in iceland ?
just concerned that airlines in this country will adopt the , if they can't beat um, join um attitude, and they will and we will all be out of a job.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 07:41
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Fifth Freedom rights will be given by DETR where there is no objection and/or possibility that the flight can be operated by a UK operator...chicken and egg...UK operator can't hope to compete against the likes of the 9G- for so many reasons, CAA charges, taxes etc. etc. and therefore few start ups to compete with the 'Flag of Convenience' boys...and on...
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 08:00
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I was a victim of one of these 'flag of convenience' operators when one of their idiots caused 40K+ of damage to my property. Depsite several witnesses, they refused to admit it was their fault and their dubious Moscow-based insurance company refused even to reply. In the end I was 10K out of pocket after loss-adjustments, insurers and repairs had been sorted out...

This was an ac belonging to one 'airline', 'operated' by an intemediary with whom the task had been 'placed' by another under contract from someone else. The ac was registered in the Baltic states and 'insured' (hah) in Russia...but based in the UK.

Gods know what will happen when this bunch join the EU after 1 May.........

Why oh why is the CAA such an ineffective and spinless organisation when it comes to dealing with these fly-by-night flag of convenience scammers?
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 09:21
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Beagle - "Why oh why is the CAA such an ineffective and spinless organisation "
When it comes to the small business GA operators I can assure you that this is far from true. They only take on the "little" guys that may not have the clout to fight back.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 09:43
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Er, since when is Iceland in the EU? Have I missed something here?
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 09:45
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Exclamation

The point that they are EU only makes it "legal" for them to trounce around EU countries. It is my understanding that if say a "TF" reg a/c wanted to op LGW/DXB with a traffic load from the UK - this flight would be subject to traffic rights. If any UK carriers objected (in which case they must have appropriate capacity and competitive price) the flight would not be allowed to happen, or a royalty must be paid.

These TF a/c seem to come in on block permits........and no one has obviously objected and taken the authorities on.

Very questionable if you ask me, especially as there are a good few people out of work on B747`s currently from a UK operation, due to this operator being allowed to fly transatlantic.

Oh well
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 09:58
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Ratty,

Iceland is part of the European Economic Area (EEA).

The Agreement creating the European Economic Area was negotiated between the Community and seven member countries of the EFTA and signed in May 1992. Subsequently one of these (Switzerland) decided after a referendum not to participate, and three others joined the Union. The EEA Agreement entered into force on 1 January 1994.

The EEA was maintained because of the wish of the three remaining - Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein - to participate in the Single Market, while not assuming the full responsibilities of membership of the EU. The Agreement gives them the right to be consulted by the Commission during the formulation of Community legislation, but not the right to say in the decision-making, which is kept exclusively for Member States. All new Community legislation in areas covered by the EEA is integrated into the Agreement through a Joint Committee Decision and subsequently made part of the national legislation of the EEA EFTA States. Through the double impact of this participation in the decision shaping and this close integration of Community acquis into their national laws, the EEA EFTA States are, of all the countries associated with the Union, technically the most closely linked to it. Politically their "arms length" policy distinguishes them from the Candidate countries, which, for the time being, have not integrated the Community legislation into their national law but are committed to do so in all policy areas.

The Agreement is concerned principally with "four freedoms - freedom of movement of goods (but agriculture and fisheries are included in the Agreement only to a very limited extent), freedom of movement of persons, of services and of capital. Horizontal provisions relevant to these four freedoms in the areas of Social Policy, Consumer Protection, Environment, Company Law and Statistics complete the extended Internal Market. It is in these areas that the EEA EFTA States take over the Union's rules.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 10:00
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Sorry yes that's what I meant Iceland not EU but EEA...hence the right to operate from UK
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 10:01
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Yep, but that isn't the EU.

Anyway, never mind. Back to the topic.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 10:10
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CR2

It is bad enough having to allow all EU countries the right to invade these shores. Yet countries like Iceland and Norway who are not in the EU get the same rights as well. This invasion is mostly one way. Just wait until May 1st when more countries join the EU.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 10:11
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Those in the EEA are given the same flying rights as those in the EU.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 10:43
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At the end of the day, these companies provide services that home-grown outfits won't (or can't) - re. the problems at EAAC, British World going bust a few years ago, etc. I agree that a company that is based in the UK (or any other EU/JAA member State for that matter) should have its a/c registered there.

I'm less confident in Ghana CAA supervision than in the British equivalent (even though obviously CAA inspectors can inspect foreign-reg. aircraft from time to time).

However, let's not paint everyone with the same brush: at BHX we happen to work with Islandsflug (who operate 737-400s on some Ryanair services) and they are a very professional outfit.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 11:23
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FougaMagister, thats my point, home grown companies can't compete because they are not on a level playing field.

Chartering in aircraft from iceland etc does nothing for the economy of this country and lets face it, it is all one sided, gatwick is full of 'tf' registrations, take excel , competing in the same markets as the established uk carriers who all have pension schemes, taxes to pay etc etc, by all accounts a very good company to work for but shrink to nought in the winter !

Balpa and caa should be onto this one before we are all on the dss.

just a thought.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 12:09
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Balpa and caa should be onto this one before we are all on the dss.
Oh and here's me thinking this was about safety!
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 12:54
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Aren't Air Atlanta going to be operating these charters on their Air Atlanta Europe (EUK) British registered AOC? If so whats your bitch?
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 13:36
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Well if that's what you say is happening, it must be true.
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 13:39
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Flag of Convenience huh?
well just curious how many now ex EAAC pilots/ FE`s went to the AAE open day last weekend, and how many have taken / been offered jobs?
pretty "convenient" for them is`nt it?
you cannot have it both ways boys, on the one hand scream protectionism, and then ask for a job with them when it suits you!
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Old 24th Mar 2004, 13:48
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This is educational regarding the official UK view:

http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ls.asp?id=1258
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