Landing a PA - 28 Warrior

[duir]

What methods do people out there use to land a PA - 28 Warrior?
My method is to get the approach speed just right 75kts (flapless) 70 kts (normal) on final and fly down to a point I judge to be correct then...........and this is the bit I am asking about ;

Do you peel the power off slowly until in the flare or
Do you kill the power and glide down to the flare???

I have seen both methods employed and wondered what the more experienced warrior pilots out there are doing.

The only other difference to these methods I have seen was during my IMC rating when we came down the ILS etc at 100 kts and peeled back the power in the latter stages. I was told this was so we kept up with other instrument traffic that were breathing down our necks!!!

[Sensible]

There has been much posted about this recently, click on this thread link. Landings are pretty much landings be it high or low wing spam can, just some characteristics change, that's all.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=118385

Read and implement and you will have a good landing 95% of the time anyway!

[Evo]

My method is to get the approach speed just right 75kts (flapless) 70 kts (normal) on final and fly down to a point I judge to be correct then


That seems a bit quick to me, my landings got much better when I flew a stable 65kts (flapped) on final - isn't the POH speed 63kts? I haven't flown one in a while though, so may be wrong. I tend to fly almost power-off once i'm on short final too, that way if the engine quits i'm still going to make it down. I hate the PA-28 habit (that I was taught!) of dragging it in from 500ft with full flap and plenty of power to compensate for being on the wrong bit of the drag curve...

When I was doing the IMC I just did flapless landings, one less thing to worry about when taking the foggles off and becoming 'visual' at 500 ft.

[Final 3 Greens]

Agree with Evo - extra 5kts tanslates into flooooat in a Warrior!

[Chilli Monster]

Evo I hate the PA-28 habit (that I was taught!) of dragging it in from 500ft with full flap and plenty of power to compensate for being on the wrong bit of the drag curve...
Sounds like you were taught the slab wing '28 technique rather than the Warrior tapered wing technique - which you're using now.

Having owned a Warrior for 4 years I'm with Evo too. Get rid of the speed or have a lot of runway available! ;)

[Evo]

I was taught 70kts as a 'bit of insurance' in case I got too slow on final :rolleyes: It wasn't (intentionally, at least) the slab-wing technique, all the PA28s at the school i learned at had the newer wing. With hindsight I shouldn't be allowed out by myself if I couldn't hold speed on final, but back then who was I to argue? Stall warner just chirping as the mains touch... never!

I came back to the PA28 after switching to Robins (the 2160) and being taught to land at the speed in the POH. Before then i'd always landed the PA28 at the speed I was taught, but when I came back to them I had the confidence to land them by the book. It's so much easier at the right speed (which, of course, is why it's the right speed). The aeroplane goes right where you ask it to go, when you ask it to go there - without that uncertainty of floating on and on a few inches or feet above the runway. It really does become so much easier.

[MLS-12D]

I was taught 70kts as a 'bit of insurance' in case I got too slow on finalWhat horrible "teaching"; unfortunately, all too common these days. :{

Glad that you have figured out the right approach for yourself, Evo, but you shouldn't have had to do that! I agree with everything you say.

Flying a final approach at ~1.3 Vso should provide ample 'insurance', without risking a 'float'. Statistics vary from airplane to airplane, but typically there are more accidents from landing long than from stalling on short final (admittedly, the stall accidents are more likely to have fatal consequences).

[duir]

When I say My method I mean how I was taught. I was given a printed sheet with all speeds on. Maybe it was just the idiot guide??? Are we saying then that the best approach speed is 65kts and is that flapless or with flaps?? Also what speed should we aim for on landing and do we kill the power and glide or do we gradually loose it????

[Chilli Monster]

POH gives the final approach speed as 63 Kts with full (40 deg) flap.

Depending on how you've flown the circuit or the approach you may find you'll need a little power or you might be power off. Either way you'll find the best landing is achieved by flying this speed to approx 3-5ft off the ground, then kill the power, start the flare and let it land itself, continuously easing back and holding off until the wheels touch at the same time (hopefully) as the stall warner goes off.

[windy1]

Interesting post, but did anyone mention weights yet?

One of the most challenging aspects of my converting from C152 to C172 was the difference between me and a puny instructor flying in the circuit with 1/4 tanks, then being let loose to fly me and 3 big blokes with 1/2 tanks.

Years of flying 4-seaters later, I always factor my final approach speeds for the pax and fuel load. The POH is of some help here, and it is pretty much essential going into short strips that you think about this aspect before you are committed.

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's not in my experience an aeroplane that appreciates any more speed than is absolutely required. The POH says initials of 70kn slowing to 63 with full flaps at 50 ft. Lightweight I have found that its safe to let it creep a couple of knots down on that but not below 60, but any increase in speed is a chronic recipe for float.

The loud and timely artificial stall warner, not to mention high back-stick forces and moderate buffet mean that you'd have to be a lobotomised gorilla to accidentally stall a Warrior on finals, and control is excellent right down to the stall.

Interesting that the POH doesn't recommend any speed but 63, nor any flap setting but 40° - then again it doesn't include any landing data but at MTOW either. When I practice flapless approaches, I usually use about 75 initials slowing to about 68, it does however use a lot more runway flapless.

I find that if speed does drop too much (by which I mean below 60) a trickle more power generally sorts it combined with a very slight push on the yoke, but I usually don't use much power, and try to be in a position to close the throttle at about 100 ft (assuming that I got the touchdown judgment right, which to be fair is about 50% of the time).

For what it's worth I fly one from a 900m grass runway, but generally find I can do a gentle landing and be turned off at about 400m on my home strip - that's generally without any significant use of brakes but holding full back-stick right through the landing roll. It not being a particularly friendly runway for that sort of thing, I do my flapless practice elsewhere.

G

[Chilli Monster]

Warrior POH only gives details for MTOW (2325 lbs).

As you get onto the bigger Pipers (Seneca, Aztec) the POH gives a constant speed, with weight affecting Landing Distance as opposed to approach speed.

So - as Ghengis says, go with the book speed, maybe a little less if you're light but definitely not below 60. You'll find that weight affects landing distance more than it affects approach speed.

[BeechNut]

I fly (and own) a Beech C23 Sundowner (180 hp). The flapless POH approach speed is 80 knots, and the full-flap speed is 68. I usually land at our home field with 2 notches (25 deg) at 75. Less float at 70 but I find that roll control (even though this ship is quick in roll; mine's also aerobatic) becomes compromised, and then dealing with the built-in crosswind at our field is more of a challenge.

The Sundowner is weight-sensitive. At MGTOW, at the suggested best rate climb speed of 79 knots, or the flapless approach speed of 80 knots, if it's gusty, the stall honker will be going on and off, but not at lighter weights. I think in this case a little insurance is a good idea: it tends to drop a wing in a stall, and moreover, this is a wing that, when it decides to quit flying, it really quits (conversely, when it reaches rotation speed-65 knots-it magically sucks the aircraft into the air regardless of weight and with minimal back pressure on the yoke, but again if it's windy the honker will go off in climb if you're less than 85 kts).

Landing is a piece of cake though, if you remember to bleed off that excess insurance coming over the fence into your flare, otherwise float is impressive. These birds also have a rep. for porpoising.

But on the other hand, I used to fly a PA28-140 and the Sundowner, if you go by the book, is more consistent. Basically flare to a slight nose-up attitude, hold it off until the honker is really honking, then pull back until the mains chirp on. Pull too soon, and you balloon back up, the wing just wants to keep flying; the demarcation from flying to not flying is sharp. And balooning is where the porpoise accidents start: tempting to shove the nose down. That's exactly what happened to a friend in her Sierra (same airframe and wing), and the result was a prop strike, broken nosegear, and a pranged front end, to the tune of $35000 CDN.

Insurance should never be more than 5 knots IMHO, otherwise things can get ugly over the pavement. At least in my bird.

Mike

[Maxflyer]

Yawningdog - wx permitting tomorrow I intend to apply your approach to my PA28 landing - fear and anxiety permitting!

[Flyin'Dutch']

YD,

Unconventional for sure. Can you elaborate a bit on what you do exactly?

Speeds? How do you start off? Half flap? What power setting? Do you vary that as well?

Interesting to read more about it!

FD

[yawningdog]

Maxflyer

Be careful. If you're too slow & too high, and raise the flaps, you'll be in trouble.

It requires busy hands. Idle the throttle, then cover the flap lever.
I'd be interested to hear how it goes.


Flyin'Dutch'

I started to play with this method whilst trying out the short field landing technique. For the short field landing, you want to get the wheels onto the ground as soon as possible because the brakes are the most effective way of slowing the aircraft quickly. Rather than risk a float or long flare, raising the laps at the right moment will plant the wheels firmly down. When the speed is below flying speed you could dump the flaps again to increase the drag.

Whilst practicing this I realised that by varying the angle during the flare it's possible to control the aircraft's height almost like a lift.

What I do is fly an normal approach, over the threshold I cut to idle and move my hand over to the flap level. When I'm entering ground effect height, I start to lift and adjust the lever.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Surely if you resort to this technique you basically dump it on rather than land with minimal speed as is the plan for a landing.

If you fly close to the ground and retract the flaps you will stall the aircraft and it will decend onto the runway but that will always be at a higher speed than if you got it right with the conventional method.

Why I hear you ask.

When you do a perfect landing you will stall the wing at the moment of touchdown. This by definition will be at the lowest possible speed as you will be flying with full flaps at that time.

Now with your method you will be flying along just above the RWY but you are still flying not stalling. Now you retract the flaps and the wing will stall but always at a higher speed because you were still flying at the earlier speed with full flaps.

Therefore your touchdown speed will be higher and therefore you have more energy to get rid off.

Furthermore you will have to do a one armed paperhanger impression if you have to go round in the last stage of the landing.

Where did you get this idea from? Have you been gliding in the past or have you flown motorgliders?

FD

[Final 3 Greens]

I'd be interested to hear John Farley's view on yawningdogs technique, as he was a test pilot too!

[yawningdog]

It's something I came across by chance.

It's just another way of getting the aircraft onto the ground, like slideslipping is another way of losing height.

But don't just "raise the flaps", vary the angle so you have a feel.

I'm just an ordinary PPL IMC.

[Flyin'Dutch']

YD,

I was just wondering about the motor/gliding bit as in those you close the throttle and then adjust the glidepath/rate of descend with the airbrakes (not flaps)

Can see what you mean but for the reasons which I pointed out in my earlier post I am not convinced that there is any benefit at all over the 'common' approach and landing technique.

In fact due to the introduction of a configuration change you are introducing more variables making things potentially more fraught with problems and on top of that there is the one-armed paperhanger issue.

Think that for most aviating sticking to 'the book' pays off.

On a slightly different note is there anyone who has any evidence to suggest that some of the short strip 'techniques' such as getting rid of flaps on touchdown or pulling flaps on reaching rotation speed make any meaningful difference to landing and take-off performance?

IMHO they just introduce added work for no benefit.

FD

[TonyR]

Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed, Airspeed.

65 knots heavy

60 knots light

Full flap unless 25 knot crosswind

Get the speed right and the PA28 will almost do the rest for you

[Chilli Monster]

On a slightly different note is there anyone who has any evidence to suggest that some of the short strip 'techniques' such as getting rid of flaps on touchdown or pulling flaps on reaching rotation speed make any meaningful difference to landing and take-off performance?Aztec POH quotes immediate flap retraction for short field landing technique - I'll try it next week and let you know FD

Yawningdog

How many hands do you have? One on the controls, one on the throttle, one on the flaps. Sounds like a recipe for disaster for me and us other mere mortals who only have two ;)

As the majority have said - airspeed, airspeed, airspeed.

[TonyR]

There is some very scary advice and opinions on this thread.

Close to the ground is not the time to play with pulling on and taking off flap.

Short field take off, PA28:- 2 stages flap, full power, holding on brakes, raise nose wheel at 50 knots, when airborne allow speed to build to 65 knots, climb 70 knots, raise flap when safe to do so.

Short field landing, Full flap, airspeed 60 knots over the fence (get used to flying over the fence at about 10' if you really want to get in to a short strip), keep full flap on until taxi speed.

That way you only need the two hands you have been given, the same two hands the aircraft designers intended the aircraft to be flown with

Stay safe

Tony R

[Genghis the Engineer]

Begs the question, why?

I know I can consistently get my Warrior down and stationary in 400m of grass without any significant divergence from the method in the POH - as presumably can anybody else since I'm not doing anything out of the ordinary. Similarly any of us can get a bit better by heavy use of the brakes. That's pretty much borne out by the numbers in the POH.

It is not a noticeably high-performing aeroplane during the take-off phase of flight; going through the POH I get (at the same conditions) a TODR of about 100m more than the LDR using the short field technique. So, any field that you can get back out of, you can land comfortably in with a good margin to spare. After that, it's mostly down to the satisfaction of landing consistently on the numbers - we all play that game, but clearly we've got adequate margin to miss the numbers and stay within the landing distance.

Which basically comes down to

- Read the blasted manual boys and girls, and if an instructor tells you to use different speeds, invite them to read it too ! Then follow it !
- Plan whether a field is suitable or not based upon take-off distances, not landing distances - at least for this aeroplane.


Speaking as somebody who also earns part of his living in test flying (albeit not at the level or experience of JF, well not yet anyway - he has a head start on me :D) I have a serious problem with the use of variable flaps during the approach. This is nothing to do with the aerodynamics case, and everything to do with the ergonomics of it. If you suddenly let go of the PA28 flap lever with it not in one of the latch positions, it will almost certainly go instantly to zero flap. Now consider the go-around case. You have your left hand on the yoke (inevitable) and your right hand on the flap lever and need quickly to select full power / carb heat off. The odds are strong that you'll let go of the flap lever and it'll go instantly to zero flap. This will bring the stall speed up from 44 kn to 50 kn - combine that with the known pitch change with flaps on the type (a small pitch up) and the aircraft could be pushed into the stall condition as the power is selected (and therefore introducing a yawing condition). The result, in my judgment, is a significant risk of a stall-spin during the go-around. [Okay, I could be wrong, I've not tried it, but I wouldn't either except under properly controlled FT conditions given the analysis that I've just presented.]

Selecting flaps-off AFTER touchdown may work - I don't know, I've not tried. But whilst there is still air under the wheels looks to me extremely foolhardy until proven otherwise. Also, given what I've said about TODR I can't see a particular need to dump flaps after touchdown in any circumstances except a forced landing in a field.

G

N.B. I'd be interested in JF's views as well - but he is a Harrier pilot, so does have three hands :p

[Chilli Monster]

I think you'll find experience means you wouldn't be stupid enough to 'give it a go' ;)

[TonyR]

yawningdog

There are some things in life that we all do which are best kept to ourselves.

F....ing about with the flap during the landing of a docile PA28 is one of them.

With a couple of thousand hours and about fifty aircraft type I cant think of any situation where this would shorten the landing run or help in any other way.

What worries me is that some people who may have a problem with their landing would try such a trick instead of going along to a good instructor for help.

It's like the person who suggested in one of our popular magazines that we should turn the mags off upon touchdown on a short strip. What a load of rubbish.

If you must employ such methods to enable you to use a short strip in any aircraft then I suggest you find a longer strip and fly by the book.

Pilots require a certin amount of intellect to pass the CAA exams but I am not sure who does the "common sense" assessment thest days.

Tony R

[UV]

Yawingdog, I am afraid that you are demonstrating your inexperience.

Unfortunately, other inexperienced pilots may be tempted to copy it.

UV

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Go Around:

Flap
Power

Hmmmmmm, I must try that one. Now where is my MS FS200?..........................

[fu 24 950]

Use power as required all the way down, ( power approace ) and as you flare, close throttle - wheels on and retract flap to give max braking.

[ToryBoy]

Whoaaaa

This is going from bad to worse.

"Retract flap to give max braking"................

"Turning mags of on a short airstrip"................

and as for yawningdog's three handed method of landing............!!

Any of you students out there MUST NOT PAY ATTENTION! This is all complete "kack de la chien"!!!!!



:ooh:

[Sensible]

And for maximum braking effect, just put it down in the water, guaranteed minimum stopping distance although a solid vertical surface gives an even shorter stopping distance! All these pet ideas may work for each individual but if all goes wrong, it may well all end up in blood and tears!


Come on guys, whats wrong with the POH thats Pilot Operating Handbook for those who have never heard of POH before and it can usually be found inside the specific airplane!!

I remember reading a post on landings by Chuck Ellsworth and I think I for one will stick with his advice since he has some 20,000 plus hours of flying experience and must have survived more than a few landings in that time! Meanwhile I am happy to take contradictory advice from any GA pilot who has in excess of Chuck Ellsworth's 20,000 hrs.

[yawningdog]

I originally wrote in my first post that my method would be frowned upon, no surprise there. Like I said before, don't try anything where you are not aware of the possible implications. Always follow the POH.

But I can't believe that so many have not heard of retracting flaps for a short field landing.

Toryboy, please explain why you wrote :

"Whoaaaa

This is going from bad to worse.

"Retract flap to give max braking"................"

[TonyR]

Quote;
"But I can't believe that so many have not heard of retracting flaps for a short field landing"

Full flap = drag = helps to slow down

Anyway all we are doing is confusing those who will try anything to improve their landings.

A PA 28 160 or 180 is not a short field aircraft. As someone already said if you get out you will get back in.

I said before "AIRSPEED" and hands where they should be.

Go and find an older instructor if you cant land properly.

Unfortunitly most of my first instructors have died of old age but I am sure they would turn in their grave if they read this thread.

[ToryBoy]

Yawningdog, I REPEAT...........bringing up (retracting) the flaps on landing will not give maximum braking and it never will.

It might well raise the stall speed thereby reducing the chance of becoming airborne again, but it will not assist braking.

Before I learned that taildraggers gave more challenging flying, I (and my Arrow) were based at a a farm strip. I always removed all flap once all three wheels were down but this was never to slow me down. Those who rush to get the flaps up must be going too fast as the a/c should be stalled onto the ground and therefore unable to create enough lift to become airborne again.

Do the heavy jets retract all their flaps, spoilers and airbrakes as soon as they touchdown? No, of course not. They do this at taxy speed once their braking effect is negligible.

Thay also don't come in over the threshold playing with the flap lever!!!!!

;)

[E1453]

I've a lot of experience on the Archer, wich is, for landing, just a heavier Warrior.

The speeds I used to use on landing were:

full flaps: 60kts
flaps up: 65kts
short landing (full flaps): 55 kts

Anything more than 5 kts above those speeds will probalbly result in a prolonged flare. Very prolonged, I have experienced many times.

I supose the Warrior should use a Vref even smaller than Archer's, because it's lighter and has the same wings.

[Capt. Manuvar]

I have heard of yawningdog's technique (or something similar) before. i think it's (or was)more commonly taught in the U.S. In involved retracting flap AFTER touchdown. The reason it's frowned upon is because of pilots pulling the wrong levers in retractables and the fact that its not a good idea to take one's hand of the throttle during landing. I think i've heard or read somewhere that retracting flaps AFTER landing can help reduce the risk/effects of hydroplaning and when landing on icy/snowy RWYs.
The reason Heavies don't retract flaps immediately after landing is because they have spoilers which auto deply on touchdown.
In the archer I Use 75-80 for flapless, 65-75for 25 deg and 65 for full flap and that's sufficeint to stop in 300-400m as little as 250m fro 65kts/full flap.
While a lot of people prefer to touch down at the lowest possible speed, i prefer to touchdown at a particular point as long as the pitch attitude is long enough. I can then get the nose wheel down and 'roast' the brake pads. I prefer that method than concentrating on getting the lowest airspeed possible only discover that the fence is 50m infront of you when you lower the nose.
I'll just stick with the POH and sue PIPER if anything goes wrong :E
Capt. M

[LowNSlow]

Fly the right speeds at the right attitude and you will land as short as possible. At the touchdown speed of most light singles the aerodynamic braking supplied by the flaps is negligable. As has been demonstrated by countless company test pilots the best way to land in a short distance is to land as slowly as possible as close to the threshold as possible and brake as hard as is practicable.

Capt. Manuvar sounds like you bounce a lot if your touchdown point is more important to you than the touchdown speed. The necessary skill with short field landings is getting your speed correct at the point you wish to land. I take it you are extracting the urine when referring to "roast the brake pads". If you do have to resort to that because the fence is only 50m in front of you when you lower the nose you need to rethink how you land aeroplanes old chap! God help you if anybody lets you loose in a taildragger :ooh: :ooh:

Yawningdog you must be barking mad. Fannying around with the flap lever at this stage of flight is just daft when the right technique makes it so much easier.
Students, or anybody else, SHOULD ONLY TRY THIS AT HOME ON A FLIGHT SIM

[BEagle]

Fully agree with all your points, LowNSlow...

Anyone pratting about with the flap lever that close to the ground had better not even think about doing it in one of my ac! It's utter, uttter twaddle. Right speed (POH approach speed), right place (threshold), max safe braking (don't lock the tyres) is the only way to do it.

Raising the flaps shortly after touchdown seems to be one of those perennial questions - it has absolutely no aerodynamic reason except to make touch and gos less runway consuming. Something which isn't a factor on Farmer Jones' little farm strip! The other excuse is that it'll prevent 'flap damage' from stones, long grass etc etc...... Hmmmm

[gjhome]

Hello,

Seems like there is som different opinions here about the flap issue. Well, I can try to explain my opinion about this.

First, i don't think a student pilot should do any thing else than landing the plane when close to ground, defently not fiddle with the flap lever and defently not try to make this "shortfield" landings. If landing distance is critical, then it´s nothing for the inexperienced or a student.

But, retracting the flaps AFTER touchdown, i repeat AFTER, not in the air as some scary pilot said in this post before, will make it possible to make shorter landings. I will try to explain this with some examples.

First, if you were to land without any wheelbraking, then landing distance would be shorter with full flaps, due to the increased drag.

But the most efficient way to stop the aeroplane is to use the wheelbrakes. And to make the wheelbrakes so efficient as possible, we want max friction against ground. When we touch down with flaps the wing is still producing some lift, and there will be less weight on the main weels and less friction. But if we retract the flaps, we will dump much lift and hence put more weight on the main wheels, and we can therefore apply more pressure on the brakes without skidding the tyres. To make braking further efficient we apply max up elevator(the control wheel in the belly :-) ), be careful not to do this before applying brake, as this will result in a ugly tailstrike. Well, the full up deflected elevator will put even more pressure(weight) on the main wheels, making the braking even more efficient. And as a extra, the deflected elevator will make som drag to.

Now we can compare this with an airliner landning. Yes, they may leve the flaps down, BUT, have you ever heard about "lift dumpers"? This is what the spoilers on the upper surface of the wing is doing when they are fully deflected upon touchdown, they are destroing the airflow over the wing, dumping all lift. This will make the wing useless in producing lift, resulting in more weight on the wheels, making harder braking possible, and the flaps will just produce drag due to the disturbed airflow, therefore helping in slowing down.

Well, this is what i have been told during my training. I belive in this. Maybe it's totaly wrong, but i will not change my mind until someone proofs something else.

And at last, sorry for my bad english. I hope you will understand anyway!

//Gus

[Final 3 Greens]

Well said LnS.

I once had the flap lever 'self position' from 40 to 25 degrees in a PA28 on very short final - scared the sh!t out of me - pitched the nose up markedly before I realised what had happened and intervened.

Not something I would initiate knowingly.

[Maxflyer]

Yawningdog you must be barking mad. Fannying around with the flap lever at this stage of flight is just daft when the right technique makes it so much easier.

Does anyone really have the right to be so negative towards a contributor to this thread? Yawningdog made it quite clear in his post that he was stating his preferred method for landing a PA28. He didn't recommend that anyone else use it, in fact when I suggested I might give it a try he responded by advising extreme caution before attempting it.

We should all share our experiences and let people make their own decisions about what is right for them. I would never try anything without running it by an instructor first, but it doesn't mean someone is wrong for suggesting it.

It never fails to amaze me how quick people are to criticize other posters. All this does is stops people helping each other out in this forum for fear of flaming without just cause. If I disagree with something another contributor posts I will try to say so without claiming the moral high ground. Debate is much healthier when it is held with a modicum of respect for others holding different views.

I have found this thread enlightening inasmuch as I am currently low time on a PA28 and always looking for helpful suggestion that go some way to making my flying easier and more enjoyable.

Rant over!

[FlyingForFun]

Seems to me there's one point which has been mentioned once or twice, but quickly glossed over.

It might be that retracting the flaps after landing helps you stop quicker, or it might not. As for retracting flaps before landing, enough has been said by others already about how bad an idea that is that I don't need to add to it. But there is one more question: Why???.

There are very few aircraft that need more runway to land than to take off, and a PA28 isn't one of them! So if you ever find yourself at a field where you need to resort to this type of technique, then the only way you're going to be getting out of that field is on a trailer! So why bother at all? There is abolutely no point!

Short field landing techniques should, of course, be taught, because there are aircraft which do need more space to land than to take off. For example, many older aircraft which don't have brakes. But then these aircraft mostly don't have flaps either. My Europa also needs more space to land than to take off - but the flap lever also controls the undercarriage, so retracting it during or after landing would be a very bad idea. But the general principal of crossing the fence at the lowest possible speed has got me into some nice short strips quite safely (although I do like to spend lots of time practicing the technique at a bigger airfield before going to a short strip, because I'm not a regular short strip pilot).

I would guess that if one were to come across an aircraft which not only needed lots of room to land such that this issue were relevant, and also had flaps, then whether retracting the flaps after landing improved things or not would depend on the characteristics of the specific aircraft? But in any aircraft, it's an extra complication with extra risks, to be avoided unless there is a definite benefit, IMHO.

FFF
--------------

[BEagle]

gjhome - as you are no doubt aware, lift = Cl 1/2 rho v**2 S.

The change in lift coefficient with flap is meaningless at the speed of a PA28 shortly after touchdown as the actual change in lift will be virtually nil because the airspeed is so low. The time involved in lowering the flap lever without allowing it slam down will be more of a hindrance than using that time to concentrate on applying maximum wheel braking without locking the tyres. Raisng the flaps, braking and moving the control column fully aft to maximise braking is theoretically going to help - but in practice it'd be such an awkward exercise that you'd be wasting time (and runway) more profitably spent on braking as hard as possible short of tyre locking!

[ToryBoy]

Don't care what anyone says, if you come over the fance at the lowest safe speed and hold the nose well back once the mains are on, you'll be stopping pretty short in any a/c that youmight be flying.

Too many people are landing flat these days and wonder why they get a bounce.

Landing a nosewheel should be done in exactly the same way as a tailwheel in terms of "view during flare". The aircraft should flop down onto its nosewheel once the elevator loses aurhority and engine weight takes over. At this point if you need to brake hard you have either:

1. Landed long

2. Approached to fast.

3. Landed at a field that you're gonna have a problem getting out of!

[LowNSlow]

Maxflyer I think you'll find that very few of my posts have condemned other people's preferred method of landing. This time I felt that this could be downright dangerous if tried by an inexperienced pilot. A few subsequent posters seem to have agreed with me. :hmm:

gjhome what you say is perfectly correct. However, I would suggest that if you are going into a field which is really close to a PA-28's limits it will probably be grass. Braking will be less effective than on tarmac and skids easier. The difference in lift (with reference to brake effectiveness) that the flaps make at the speed you SHOULD be touching down is miniscule. You'd be far better to be concentrating on speed control and getting the brakes on as hard as possible and feeling for a skid rather than faffing around with the flap lever.

ToryBoy full agreement on the flat landings but lets not start that thread again!!!!

[fu 24 950]

Thank you Capt. M and gjhome for the help on the Max braking.
Yawningdog, your idea is right ,but maybe not using it at the right time. Normal landing at an airfield , not the right way to do it, BUT is a great asset as a short field backup . ( you are all looking at my profile and asking what a helicopter pilot from Hong Kong know's about short landing's, may explain later).
You are on final's , passed the overshoot point ,over the threshold and "****** " , I got it wrong , I'am floating along and the far fence is only 300 yard's away. Now according to most people you need three hands for the next trick, But wait, you have already closed the throttle so that may leave you with a spare hand to raise the flaps, dump the lift and get the bloodly wheels on the ground to get MAX braking.

[Stoney X]

fu 24 950, I would suggest that if you have already closed the throttle and flared and then decide you have "****** got it wrong" then you have failed to make the right descision a few hundred feet back. If are coming in a bit fast then you should recognise this before flaring and closing the throttle. If your threshold speed is higher than the POH recommended speed and the runway is short, go-around!

Regards
Stoney X

[LowNSlow]

fu 24 950 I wouldn't do that to anybody's undercarriage in normal circumstances.

I don't understand the term 'passed the overshoot point' . It's not something I've heard in reference to a light single. If you are floating along and the end of the runway is coming towards you, OPEN THE THROTTLE establish a climb and adjust your flaps accordingly. It's routine. You don't HAVE to land off every approach people.

[fu 24 950]

Stoney X and LowNSlow,, ever been into a one way strip, one way in and, turn around and the other way out, once committed there is no ''overshoot"

[ToryBoy]

fu 24 950

Come on there young chap, you're getting silly now.

I would strongly advise against a public disagreement about field flying techniques with LownSlow.....................you'll come off worse everytime!!:}

[Stoney X]

fu 24 950, I would expect anyone flying into those kinds of strips to be sufficiently proficient and experienced as to be able to nail the POH figures everytime. Whatever technique that person then uses when things go wrong I would class as a controlled crash technique, i.e. pulling up the flaps. If you then get away without damaging the undercarriage well good luck to you! Of course none of this should relate to getting a spam-can into your average UK grass strip.

Regards
Stoney X

[fu 24 950]

Toryboy, please do a GOOGLE search on FU 24 950 and then you may understand were I am coming from

[Penguina]

But there is one more question: Why???.

Forced landing seems the only sensible answer to that one. But even (or especially, since I might not be able to go around) in that situation, I wouldn't mess around with what I knew how to do to try something I'd read on the internet that might help.

Having said that, I don't think retracting flaps straight after landing is difficult or distracting: look at all those thousands of touch and gos I did. So about that issue, you could equally ask 'why not?'

[LowNSlow]

fu OK, now I understand your reference to 'passed the overshoot point'. I was referring to 'normal' strips up to now. As it happens I have been into such strips and I make damn sure my approach is as perfect as I can get it from a long way out.
If I did let it go to worms then, I probably would pull the flaps up, salp it on the ground and, after slowing as much as I could, I would deliberately ground loop (assuming I had an undercarriage left), rather than hit a solid object head on / run over the edge at the end. Forget faffing around with flaps and brakes at that stage. Better to break the undercarriage than your head on the instrument panel. But the only time I would do the above is if I was faced by a cliff at the end of a box canyon for example.

ToryBoy thanks for the compliment but there are a lot of people here much more experienced than I in the art of short field techniques.

Good point Penguina but go-arounds are usually practised where you have plenty of space/ runway to handle mistakes. In terms of a normal landing on a 'normal' grass strip, why bother? There have been quite a few incidents of people inadvertantly retracting the undercariage when they meant to raise the flaps. They did stop quickly though :ooh: :ooh:

[ToryBoy]

Ahhh, but how many have their own fly in organised for them?!
:D

[fu 24 950]

Enjoy your lunch Guy's but it it bedtime over here

[LowNSlow]

Night Fu it's time to go for a post work beer here!

[TonyR]

God help some of you if you ever progress from a PA28 to something that is difficult to land.

[yawningdog]

What could possibly be harder to land than a pa28?

[Monocock]

My sentiments exactly TonyR!

Try a Luscombe in a 15 knot breeze from 20 degees off centre. Make it a grass undulating runway and I'd pay to watch....:}

P.S Yawningdog, you're making us yawn now with all your tongue in cheek! Did you ever buy that doodlebug you said you would on the flyer forum?:confused:

[Saab Dastard]

Yawningdog,

I'm not a lawyer or insurer, but one point to consider might be the legal / insurance one. Say (just for argument's sake) that you had a heavy landing while using your technique and collapsed the MLG, causing damage to the fuselage, wings and prop, possibly shockloading the engine into the bargain.

The insurance claim goes in and it comes to light that you were carrying out a landing technique that is not in the POH and that - on the evidence of the posts so far - would not be considered something that the average, competent pilot would normally do.

I would think that there could be a possibility of the claim being thrown out - and how much worse would it be if your PAX were injured - whiplash, say - and you were found to have acted negligently (see Flying Lawyer's post on the insurance thread a few weeks ago).

This is not a criticism of your technique, technical or otherwise, just pointing out that if you don't fly "by the book" you are in a poor position if something goes pear-shaped.

SD

[Thief13x]

I fly a warrior, and usually cut the power when i cross the threashold. Of course, i alter this as neccessary to compensate for a shotty pattern:) but usually this just works fine for me. Then again, i'm a student pilot with no more than 45 hours so don't take my word as gold.:ok:

Happy Flyin

T13x

[TonyR]

http://www.adattic.com/index.html?target=p_1437.html&lang=en-us

Thief13x

Good luck with finishing your licence.......

Please do not read any more of this crap until you have at least 500 hours....

Tony R

[whosyerdaddy]

As with most piston aircraft if you cut the power suddenly you run the risks of - is it rich cut? plus the inherrent dangers of applying sudden inputs to anything in a 30yr old tub.

Someone at my flying club spent 6 months in a suit of armour due to that.

[Monocock]

what's a suit of armour?

[Maxflyer]

...had to wear one myself once for about six months - Whole Body Cast.