Checks - Before Taxi to Fuel & After

[paulo]

I'm interested to know what others do in this scenario. This is assuming that, like me, you believe in checklists (if you don't, your answer here won't help me)

You know you have to go and fuel up.

- Do you do full internal / startup checks at startup?
- Do you do the same after fuelling?

Doing both seems like unneccessary duplication. So logically one would do full checks after fuelling? And if so, what basics would you do for the taxi?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Personally I'd do full internal pre-start checks each time, the full externals (maybe rather quickly second go) each time, but generally full taxi checks between the stand and pumps, and full take-off checks only after fuelling.

I've never seen any formal guidance on that, but as a practice it's served me adequately.

G

[Sassenach]

When you say you believe in checklists, I presume you mean written ones.

Personally I agree with the military way of doing things, ie. memorising all the checks. By working your way methodically along the panel, checking as you go, the aircraft becomes its own check list. If it's there, check it; if it's not, don't. This means that pre start-up checks take a fraction of the time that they would have if I'd used a written list. Best of all, you can't accidentally miss things off the list, because the aircraft itself is prompting you.

So yes, I always do a full pre start-up check. Despite what you say, I hope that this answer will help you.

[englishal]

I'd just get in, start up (fuel on, mags on, start, T&Ps etc), drive to the fuel pump and fuel up. Then I'd co the complete checklists from scratch.

EA

[ToryBoy]

I must admit I tend to go along with englishal there.

Wht bother checking round the airframe if you're only going 20 yds to the pumps. As long as there are no towbars attached or things stuck in the air intake you may as well do the whole lot properly once before you actually intend to get airborne.

[BEagle]

I agree with englishal!

Commonsense rather than blinkered checklist dogma...

[Beethoven]

Oil pressure check and brake check...nothing more...I feel that the brake check is definitely important. Most of the other things as far as I can see are to ensure a safe flight, not taxi....Having said that, with regard to externals I would always take fuel samples before starting the engine for whatever purpose.
Beet

[Wide-Body]

Hi Englishal, Tory boy,

Whilst I don't believe that it is alway necessary to do full checks before fuelling, the car type switch on and go routine can have its problems. As you said tow bars also prop covers, intake covers, tie Down's and chocks. Whilst not needing external control locks out for fuel, chances are they may fall out and be a hazard for the subsequent aircraft (not to mention loosing the bloody things). Also engine oil are you going to start your aircraft without checking that. Where do you have most time, ac on the line/hangar door, or on the pumps?

Finally the human factors element. If you have a standard systems for checks and you vary this; you leave the potential for omission later on. Example, quickly start ac, taxi to pumps, do some bits whilst fuelling and due to big ques get hassled to leave. In a rush and get airborne suddenly realising you have not completed your walk round. I know I have done it myself!!!

Obviously it will Never happen to you because you are always so thorough. However the jump in and go approach is just another piece of swiss cheese removed from the accident loop.

Safe flying to all

Wide
:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

I agree with the answers suggesting a bit of common sense... but something that no one has mentioned so far is how well you know the aircraft. If it's an aircraft I'm new to, then I'll follow the full checklist every time (although I may read out, and then consiously decide that I don't need to do, certain items).

If it's an aircraft I'm familiar with, then I'll always do a brief walkaround before starting the engine, including checking oil, checking that all covers, etc, have been removed and so on. I'll always do an A-check at least once a day, before I first fly (but maybe not before I first start the engine). If I'm just taxying, not flying, then I don't usually use any internal checklists - once I'm in, I just start her up and go. I wouldn't normally do taxi checks just to go to the pump... although Beethoven makes a very good point about the brakes.

But I think there are lots of valid answers to the question - as long as you can justify what you do, that's fine.

FFF
---------------

[Flyin'Dutch']

When I taxy to the pumps before a flight I am ready to go. So external and internal checks done. On the way there do taxy checks.

No point taxying to the pumps filling up only to find out that a piece of necessary kit is not working if you were only to do the checks after that.

After filling up and putting the filler caps on back myself. Internal checks and off to the holding point.

FD

[Chilli Monster]

I'm with Widebody on this, for the same reasoning.

Fuel checks (draining) is an external check. This is preferably done with the tanks full or freshly refuelled, to check integrity of the fuel you've just taken onboard.

External checks come before internal checks.

So sequence is:

Walkround at the hangar, including external checks, lights etc. Check oil (so you can put this in same time as fuel).

Jump in, start, check T's & P's and taxy to fuel pump.

Replenish.

Drag it off the pumps, check tank drains.

Say to yourself mentally "external checks complete"

Start internal checks from scratch.

Common sense really, and the only real way if you use checklists rather than memory (I fly 3 different types in 3 different categories of aircraft - the checklist rules in my case).

[Fuji Abound]

I agree about routines. If you are use to completing your checks before taxi (be it for fuel or departure) it would seem safer not to vary that routine. In any event that way at least all the checks that should be done before the aircraft moves are out the way and there is no danger of having left the toe hook on because you were only going to the pumps.

The only caveat is the fuel questions. Draining for water is part of the usual pre taxi checks but I can think of one occasion I was very glad I checked again after refueling having found a significant quantity of water in the uplifted fuel. So that would suggest you leave the fuel checks until at the pumps BUT if there was water already in the tanks often refueling just churns this up with the new fuel and the drain appears far last contaminated than it really is. Also you can no longer "blame" the fueler for his poor quality product! So I reckon it is worth checking the fuel before taxi and after refueling.

[Beethoven]

Very true about fuel checks. I always remember feeling a little cheeky when I was a student, climbing up the ladders to check if the fuel guy had topped the tanks and screwed the caps down properly,but as my instructor told me, he'll be on the ground with a coffee and bacon butty when your engine stops. Good point also about not taxying before having checked out from Flying Dutch..I may change my routine now. Does that however mean that you effectively do the internals twice?...Once before taxi and then again after refuelling? Nothing wrong with that I suppose.
Beet

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Fuel checks (draining) is an external check. This is preferably done with the tanks full or freshly refuelled, to check integrity of the fuel you've just taken onboard.

First flight of the day, I like to check for water while the aeroplane is stil in the hangar - before it has moved. If there is any water in the tanks, it will have had plenty of time to collect at the bottom of the tanks and will show in the fuel check. Can't argue with also checking after a fill-up as well, though, to check the integrity of the fuel you've just uplifted as Chilli says.

As for check lists, best done mentally in simple aeroplanes IMHO, especially if yu are familiar with the type.

SSD

[mad_jock]

I would never start an engine with out checking the oil first. If it be transit checks first flight of the day or loading up the next student for the 10th time that day

Personally i would do a first flight check then taxi to the fuel then a transit check afterwards. ie quick visual check nothing has fallen off and oil again and fuel contents. And you won't make many friends blocking the refueling point while doing checks.

Don't really see much point of testing the fuel striaght after refueling the whole lot is going to be mixed up so for it to be any good you will need it to sit for awhile to settle. This really isn't an issue if you are buying your fuel from Air BP etc. But if you are using mogas or filling from a home bowser i would be abit more careful.

MJ

[Chilli Monster]

Don't really see much point of testing the fuel striaght after refueling the whole lot is going to be mixed up so for it to be any good you will need it to sit for awhile to settle. Believe me, it doesn't take long to settle (5 minutes isn't going to cause you any problems - if you're in that much of a rush should you really be flying?) and it proved itself to me at Le Touquet one day with 3 1/2 strainers full of crap.

[DFC]

Before going any further ask yourself if you are using a "check list" or a list of items that make up a procedure.

Pre-start- Check oil level, all clear, brakes on. Start engine.

That is a checklist....important items that must be checked.

Switch this on, pull that push the other etc found in most GA checklist are better desribed as "how to start the engine lists"

Using that idea and the full scan principle as soon as one sits down, checklists become much smaller and doing them is seen as less of a chore.

Of course, if unfamiliar then the "how to do it list" is required but not after that.

You will never miss anything off a written 3 item checklist. Make that 30 items and the posibility of a slip increases dramatically.

Personally, If going to the fuel pumps prior to flight, I would complete the walkaround prior to first move off - best chance of finding a reason not to taxi at all.

Agree with the checking of fuel both as part of the walkround and after fuelling. However, after refuelling it can take 20 minutes for the water to settle out of suspension in the fuel so a quick check straight after may not reveal all the water.

Of course the fuel check is not just about water it is about dirt and also the correct grade of fuel.

Suppliers of fuel are required to check the fuel by taking a sample each day. Ask to see the sample for that day - it will be in a nice big glass jar on the truck or stored near the refuelling point.

After refuelling, it is important to complete the pre-take-off checklist. (or taxi and power checks if to divide the checks). One of your pasengers may have decided to leave their handbag resting on the rudder pedals.

Regards,

DFC

[mad_jock]

Fair enough Chilli I must admit after being refuel by the same bowser for over a year and never finding any water has made me lazy with low wing types especially when its pissing down.

MJ

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi Chili,

What would be of interest is whether you found more crud after waiting for a bit longer.

Am sure that you will catch some if there is a lot but not sure that 5 mins is enough for all the water/crud to get to the lowest point, especially if the stuff is well mixed and partially emulsified by having a powerful refuel.

For that reason refuelling at the end of the day is preferable although that would mean you will have to have a fair idea what you are doing next time you get the bird out.

FD

PS Hope we're not going to debate for a few pages the OWT of condensation in non full fuel tanks! ;)

[ToryBoy]

Chilli,

I assume you hold a night rating then?

[bookworm]

So what are the jump-in-and-taxi checks then?

[external]
* Check area around aircraft, chocks removed and tie-downs
* Check oil level (and presumably fuel level)

[internal pre-start]
* Check brakes on
* Rotating beacon on

[internal post-start]
* Check oil pressure rising/risen
* Check mags (at least before you shut down)
* Check brakes (early on the taxi)

Anything else?

I think DFC makes a good point in differentiating between checklists and do-lists.

[slim_slag]

I think I read/heard somewhere that you should wait 15 mins per 30cm depth of fuel after refueling before you take a sample.

A good reason to double check things and do another walk around after refueling, draining the tanks last. That might give you enough time to have any water separate out. Nothing wrong with doing the check list before you taxi, and also after you refuel. What's the hurry anyway, isn't it supposed to be fun?

Good tip is to sample from the wing tanks before the engine sump. If you drain the lowest point of the system first, you may suck some pure water out of the tanks into the fuel feed lines. You might then miss water, and any pure water could reach your cylinders just as you are climbing out :(

[IO540]

One should drain the drains even if one has just filled up. In some planes (including mine) some of the drains are from low points in the fuel system, not from the tanks directly.

[Polly Gnome]

Your decision would depend on the layout and size of the airfield.

Just to taxi for fuel I do a quick check for tie downs, etc and to make sure the brakes work properly. I also test the fuel and check the oil.

When the aircraft has been refuelled I take it to a quiet corner and do the full checks from scratch.

It doesn't matter if I need to go back to the hanger, because I fly from a small airfield.

One instructor, with thousands of hours on all sorts of aircraft, said always to test the fuel before refuelling because any water gets swirled up in the tanks. We then did the full checks afterwards.

[Capt. Manuvar]

There is no harm in being too cautious. I'd rather do my checks 3-4 times than end up in an embarrasing situation afterwards.
There are many accidents that happen during taxi, a lot of them due to the over-relaxed attitude of pilots during this phase of flight.
I treat taxiing to the pumps the same way i would treat any other flight and, even though it might sound a bit silly, it is a logable flight as the a/c has moved under its own power (and no, i don't log it:D ).
Personally I do the complete external and internal checks before anyhting at all. Then after refuelling i check the fuel again and redo my internal checks. Hasn't hurt anyone yet?
Capt m

[FlyingForFun]

it is a logable flight as the a/c has moved under its own power No it's not.An aeroplane shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the aircraft moves under its own or external power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flightMy emphasis - but the quote is from LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF), Section A, Appendix B (page 54 of the PDF file, which is the page numbered 38). If you are taxying to the pumps you are not moving for the purpose of taking off, so it doesn't count.

What does count, though, is taxying for the purpose of taking off, but then changing your mind (e.g. you discover a problem in the run-up area, or the weather turns bad before you take off). I've had a couple of those flights, and considered logging them, but decided not to.

FFF
---------------

[englishal]

for the purpose of taking off
Well you could argue that filling up with fuel on the way to the runway is for the purpose of taking off ! :D Anyway, who cares....

Its ok to be cautious and do the checks, so long as you do FULL checklist each time. My mate was nearly caught out by this. Full checks completed, run up done, ready for take off. A really windy day and there was a long delay (ATC or something). The student in the LHS decided to put the control lock back in, my mate knew about this.....(you can see whats coming can't you).......Cleared for take off, hammering down a 900m runway, rotate....Nothing.....they had both forgotten that the control lock had been put back in, all the checks were complete.

Luckily, my mate who is a FI took control, slammed on the anchors, pulled the mixture and they stopped at the end of the runway, tyres smoking. My point is, the checks were complete, except in the time between checking and take off, the control lock was put back in. This is why if I have an intermediate stop, say at a fuel pump, I consider all checks incomplete until I'm ready to go for the runway, which is why I don't waste a lot of time pre-flighting before taxying for fuel. Its common sense to check the oil and walk around to make sure you're not still tied down (the embarrasment of it...:O ).......

EA

[DFC]

What does count, though, is taxying for the purpose of taking off, but then changing your mind (e.g. you discover a problem in the run-up area, or the weather turns bad before you take off). I've had a couple of those flights, and considered logging them, but decided not to

I disagree.

If one goes to the hold finds a problem and returns to the ramp then that flight is cancelled. One can not log any of that time.

Taking it further, one is not required to record that time in the airframe logbook because the flight was cancelled.

If you don't record the airframe time then you most definitely can't log the flight time.

Using your system, we could have a person complete 25 hours dual and 15 hours solo without ever leaving the ground in a clapped out cessna with one mag........cancel at the hold after discovering one mag U/S. Shucks, the GFT could even be done on the ground except for the nav element!

You are corect however about the taxi for fuel not being loggable.

Regards,

DFC

[FlyingForFun]

Ok, it's Friday, it's grey and miserable and windy outside, and I have tons of work to do, none of in the slightest bit interesting.... perfect circumstances for a completely pointless argument about semantics (because we haven't had one of them for, ooh, at least a day or so!)

DFC, I disagree - and the reason is in the quote that I pasted a few posts ago.An aeroplane shall be deemed to be in flightIn other words, what follows determines whether it is a "flight" or not as far as your logbook is concerned - it has nothing to do with what goes in the airframe's logbook, nor anything to do with what the dictionary describes as "flight" - those are entirely separate.from the moment the aircraft moves under its own or external powerI don't think there's any doubt that an aircraft is moving under its own power if it taxies to the runup areafor the purpose of taking offLikewise, if you taxy to the runup area with the intention of taking off, there can't be any doubt that the reason your are taxying is to take off, even if you subsequently don't do sountil the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flightThis one caught me out a bit, because how can you come to rest at the end of a flight if you don't fly? But then I remembered to use "flight" as per this paragraph, and not as per the dictionary, and realised that the movement of the aircraft to and from the runup area has already been defined as a "flight", therefore the aircraft must come to rest at the end of this flight.

Your analagy with an airframe logbook doesn't hold for two reasons. First, the quote that I'm refering to is specificly talking about logging time in a pilot's logbook. Secondly, the airframe logbook records take-off to landing, whereas the pilot's logbook records brakes-off to brakes-on, so the two can not be compared.

You then say "we could have a person complete 25 hours dual and 15 hours solo without ever leaving the ground in a clapped out cessna with one mag........" Well, maybe. It would unusual to spend 25 hours at the holding point, whether one mag is out or not, though, so it would have to be a series of flights and not just one. And I would argue that you can not log the time if you knew beforehand that a mag was out, because you wouldn't taxy for the purpose of taking off knowing that a mag was out. So you'd have to find the problem, have it fixed, taxy out only for the problem to recur..... and repeat many many times. I think even the most tolerant student would be looking for a new school by this time!!!

And in any case, that scenario isn't really any different from the one where you taxy to do one circuit, but ATC have you hold for 1/2 hour. You end up logging 45 minutes, even though only 5 of that is airborne. So yes, there are some scenarios where you can get lots of time in your logbook without doing very much flying - and I think this is another of those.

Right, that's enough of that for now. Unfortunately, my boss seems to think that making our IT systems work is more important than whether we are or are not allowed to log the odd 5 minutes of extra "flight" time! I'll look forward to DFC's reply though ;)

A very bored FFF
---------------------------

[englishal]

Yep, the weather is shi*e and I'm bored of sanding floorboards :D

I'd argue though FFF, that fueling a plane by driving to the pumps, and filling up before take off can be included in the same arguement that you're putting forward. If I leave parking intending to take off, but en-route pick up fuel which is required for a sucessful take off normally, how can you say that this time is not loggable?

Anyway, my own loggin method is: Whatever I get billed for, I log :D

EA

[High Wing Drifter]

until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight.
So any views on when this is? When you stop to fill up after landing or when you stop to chock?

[Circuit Basher]

I'm with FFF on this. If the intent is to fly and the aircraft is taxied for the purposes of flight (ie) during that period of operation of the aircraft, the pilot is planning to fly, then I would consider it to be loggable as a flight. I had one such event on my Solo QXC at Bournemouth, when I taxied from the Jet Heritage parking area by 26 Hold to the active runway ( 08 ), which was around 10 mins, only to find that I had a significant drop on one mag. I then taxied back and after a bit of discussion with / tinkering with the mixture by the Club CFI, changed aircraft. I logged the taxi time (on the basis that I paid for it!!). This was not challenged by the CAA (and it was declared as a 'non airborne flight' in my log book.

Yep, the discussions could range (and have done previously!) long and hard on this one - hopefully it'll push 'How Many Hours Before you did Your First Solo' of the radar screens for good!! ;)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I logged the taxi time (on the basis that I paid for it!!). Which club is this that charges for the time you spend discovering that they've given you a broken aircraft?? You should be charging them for that time surely? - or have I misunderstood something?

[Chilli Monster]

What utter a**e!

If you're so desperate for flight time that you have to log an aircraft movement that never leaves the ground it shows what a sad t**t you really are.

I would be seriously embarrassed to admit to putting that sort of thing in my log book :rolleyes:

(There - that should kill that one stone dead ;) )

[Flyin'Dutch']

CM,

A truly rare moment! We agree!

FD

[knobbygb]

OK - I'm bored too - no overtime today.

You're talking about logging 'flight time', but what you should really be referring to is logging 'time in command of an aircraft'. Now, surely by this definition the decisions and actions you take on the way to the hold for a flight which is subsequently cancelled due to a fault on the aircraft are just as important (if not more so) that those you would have take while in flight.

IN CB's example above, I'm sure he'd agree that he leared more from the experience of cancelling his flight due to a faulty mag than he would have learned spending 20 minutes pounding around the circuit. Surely those 'command decisions' he made and the experience he gained that day warrant logging just as much as any other time in command? I believe that is exactly why the time logging requirements are defined as they are.

[FlyingForFun]

CM,

When I considered logging these flights, it wasn't because I particularly wanted the 10 minutes of extra time in my logbook. It was because it was a particularly interesting, unusual event which I wanted in my logbook!

When I thought about it, though, the time that the trim-wheel came off in my hand during the pre-flight was just as memorable as the time when the carb-heat control came right the way out of the control panel during the run-up. The difference is that for the former I never started the engine, but for the latter I started the engine, taxied to the run-up area, and taxied back again. So although I (think I) could legally log the second flight, it didn't seem right to log that, but not the first one.

FFF
-------------

[FNG]

Zombifying this thread but, fear not, nary a word about logging the time spent scraping bugs off the windows. On the more general subjects of checklists vs memory, and dealing with emergencies, here is something from Avweb

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/185521-1.html