Ryanair at it again!

[Pengineer]

Look what Michaels planning now!
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=577348&issue_id=5840

We should all try it, lets book a Ryanair ticket then 'unilaterally' deduct 50% of the cost and tell them theres a recession and they should be glad we're flying with them!

If Ryanair is doing as well as he keeps saying they are he shouldn't need any favours.

[mutt]

Can anyone explain this statement from MOL... Such a move, if imposed unilaterally across all Ryanair services in Ireland, could save the carrier up to £10m by 2003.

I have recently purchased tickets from Paris to Dublin, you can clearly see that Ryanair charge for each item separately, so while slashing the fees paid to Aer Rianta may save ME money, I cant see how it can save Ryanair £10m.

Or am I missing something?????


Mutt. :)


PAYMENT DETAILS
*****1,090.00 FRF Adults
********40.00 FRF Fees
*******150.00 FRF Service Charges
********35.60 FRF Ins Levy/PSC
*********0.00 FRF UK Air Duty
*******102.00 FRF Government Tax
*********0.00 FRF Airport Tax
*********0.00 FRF Car rental
*********0.00 FRF Insurance
*****1,417.60 FRF Total Paid

[fionan]

A recent applicant to Ryanair for an F/O position was charged a £50 cv processing fee.There would be a further £150 p/c charge if the applicant got that far and ultimately a £15,000 conversion charge.Then because the applicant held only a frozen ATPL his salary would be £11,000IR.He would recieve only 50% sector pay for the first two years and 75% sector pay for the next two.The contract offered would be for four years.It is thus easy to see how Micheal O'Leary intends to save money.Any pilot who holds this man up as a model for the future of aviation is a disgrace to his/her profession.

[The Guvnor]

So you didn't get the job then, Westman?? :D :D :D

[mainfrog2]

After that little lot maybe westman couldn't afford to take it.

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: mainfrog2 ]

[Brakes to Park]

Guv*anke* talking of giving people jobs who's employing you at the moment? Why don't you do us all a favour and go to Afghanistan to do some voluntary work. Hopefully a stray missile will come your way.

[euroboy]

This sort of explains why the low cost airlines are doing quite well thank you and the majors aren`t. The flag carriers pay up the going airport fees...the low costs complain and in Stelios`s case grizzle when they have to pay the same as other carriers.

So if the the EasyJet`s, Ryanair`s in the world paid the same fees as the majors would you still be able to offer these fares of £1 etc...?

[maxalt]

Well, looks like MOL is finally getting the free hand he's waited for all this time.

So he's gonna chop the Aer Rianta fees unilaterally. That's just a 'taster' for what's in store.

The lucky guys being offerred jobs at FR now have just had a unilateral (I love that word) 25% hike in the 'fee' for the type rating (they pay for it themselves). I don't refer to it as a 'bond' exactly...'cos thats exactly what it ain't! Just 'cos you fork out the £15,000 (up from the £12,000 he wanted before Sept 11th) is no guarentee you've got the job! If they like you they'll keep you. If not take a hike. So, not really a bond, eh? Fair enough.

But I hadn't heard the one about the sector pay! Coooool! Nice one! Good ole MOL!

When the decks are really cleared, and all those nasty dinosaur 'fat cat' carriers are gone...then MOL will really show you what he has in mind for the travelling public. And hey...if you don't like it, you know where to shove it. (Only problem is, you'll have two choices...FR, or the boat/train/greyhound/whatever).

[The Guvnor]

Don't see what you lot are complaining about. If you want to fly for Southwest Airlines, you have to have the rating - whether you pay for it yourself of have it courtesy of a previous employer doesn't matter - but no 737 rating; no interview.

Plus you pay an application fee and other charges related to the application process. They still have thousands applying to them - and Southwest is regarded as being one of the best employers in the US - so there's obviously a lot fewer whingers over in the States than there are here in Europe!

Perhaps if all airlines took this approach, fewer of them would be in trouble right now.

And finally, don't forget that FR pay their people exceptionally well - you just have to (quite properly) work bloody hard for it.

[lineup]

Guvnor, where do you live-
oh I see, Darkest Africa... :p :p :p

[moist]

Brakes to Park,

I suggest you take some chill pills, you are up against the biggest wind up merchant of modern times.

The Guvnor

I know who you are. A BAGGAGE HANDLER at STN.
Tomorrow I shall put a picture of yours on the forum!

[Idunno]

At Southwest...no 737 rating; no interview...

At FR...no 15 grand; no interview.

And after paying up, maybe no job anyhow.

How much does a 737 rating cost in the US?
I can get one for $6,000!!

A nice little earner for FR.

They still have thousands applying to them

Can I see your figures/check your sources please. Seriously! If you're right I'll start a school offerring 737 type ratings and be a millionaire overnight!

..and Southwest is regarded as being one of the best employers in the US

But FR is not regarded as being one of the best employers in europe. By a loooong shot.

so there's obviously a lot fewer whingers over in the States than there are here in Europe

Resorting to insults again Guvnor. Tsk Tsk. No wonder you get no respect.

Perhaps if all airlines took this approach, fewer of them would be in trouble right now.

Yeah right...anyone with $6,000 dollars...you're hired!!. That should keep the terrorists happy anyhow Guv.

And finally, don't forget that FR pay their people exceptionally well - you just have to (quite properly) work bloody hard for it.

You obviously didn't read Westmans comments very carefully did you. Unless you really think that a starting salary of £11,000 and fifty percent sector pay is your concept of an 'exceptionally well-paid' pilot.

On thinking about it, it probably is your concept of an exceptionally well paid pilot.
Which is just one more reason why I'll never work for you.

Or M'OL.

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ]

[The Guvnor]

Idunno - you obviously didn't read westman's post carefully either: the person in question only has a frozen ATPL (therefore zip in the way of airline experience, especially on 737s).

I'm sure if you do your homework you'll find that anyone with plenty of experience - and the right ratings - will be on full whack and not be liable for any of the conversion costs (which shouldn't apply anyway!)

I'm also reliably informed that if you come to FR with the proper ratings, there's no conversion course, so if you can get a JAA rating in the States for $6,000 then I suggest you get yourself signed up as an agent pronto! :D :D :D

(PS: I claim my 10% commission!)

(PPS: What's with the bunny stuff anyway?)

[Idunno]

Guvnor you don't need a JAA rating to work for Southwest. :confused: :rolleyes:

Oh I see...we're supposed to be discussing Ryanair! Fine, then stick to the subject and leave Southwest out of it...nice try at muddying the water anyhow.

Westman referred to a frozen ATPL'er? So what! Ryanair has never had a two tier payscale before. You were either a Captain or an F/O, and you got paid as such. Now we're seeing new rates being invented for 'less experienced pilots'.
My view is you can either do the job or you can't. If you can't then you aren't fit to sit in the seat. If you are, then you deserve to be paid the same rate as the next guy...especially if there is only one rate (i.e. no length of service scales).

MOLs arrogance in unilaterally cutting the landing fees by 50% is disgraceful. What a chancer! If you parked your car downtown and then told the booth operator you're only giving him 50% of the charge when leaving...do you think you'd get very far?

I hope they get some a/c seized and impounded.

As to the 'Bunny stuff'...ever seen Conair?

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ]

[Man-on-the-fence]

But I thought that the low cost airlines were all doing ok and that the majors were just whinging to get Government subsidies because they are big, unwieldy and inefficient (or at least that is the impression I got from listening to MOL and the fat orange one over the last few weeks)

Surely they dont want it both ways? That would be unfair...wouldn't it :rolleyes:

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Man-on-the-fence ]

[mjenkinsblackdog]

GUVNOR YOUR THE BIGGEST PLONKER ON PPRUNE AGAIN .GET OFF PILOTS BACKS AND TAKE YOUR PATHETIC COMMENTS ELSEWHERE.
YOUR COMMENTS ARE CHILDISH AND IDIOTIC AT A TIME WHEN PILOTS NEED SUPPORT.
IF YOU EVER GET ON MY AIRCRAFT EXPECT TO BE OFFLOADED. :mad:

[The Guvnor]

Idunno - Southwest is very relevant to this discussion, as it's the Southwest business model that FR follow.

I do have to admit that you're right about MO'L being a bit of a chancer with the unilateral 50% cut of the airport charges - is this going to apply only at Aer Rianta airports (where the two of them get on like cat and dog at the best of times) or is it going to be everywhere?

That said, you might like to compare a couple of rates I just happen to have to hand here for Cork and Manchester:

Cork
Landing fee per tonne: IEP4.04 (approx GBP3.20)
Passenger facility charge (per pax): IEP 7.23 (approx GBP5.75)

Manchester
Landing fee per tonne: GBP7.99
Passenger facility charge (per pax): GBP4.20

So, a B737 with an MTOW of 55 tonnes and say 100 pax would cost GBP751 at ORK and GBP859 at MAN. I really can't see what he's got to gripe about with Aer Rianta!

mjenkinsblackdog - ummm, I'm not quite sure why you think I'm 'on pilot's backs' on this particular matter - we're talking about airport charges and Ryanair copying Southwest! Do please let me know what and for whom you fly, so I can avoid that airline/type like the plague... :eek: :D :rolleyes:

[Idunno]

Guvnor when comparing Southwest and Ryanair I will accept that Ryanair base their business model on that of Southwest.

There the comparison ends, and all other comparisons are of zero relevance...such as what pilots earn in the respective companies, how much training costs, how many pilots want to work for them etc etc. So please stop comparing apples with oranges...you are usually the first to point out that European pilots have no basis on which to compare salaries and working conditions to US pilots and vice versa.

MOLs chancerism doesn't end just with landing fees either. Have a look at their website under the 'News' section, where he moans to passengers about the unfair increase in insurance costs and after pledging to 'fight on behalf of the customers' then slaps them with a surcharge to pay for it!

Of course he's entitled to do that...but it's the pathetic whinging and spin doctoring that is somewhat sick making.
If O'Leary really has the best interests of 'the customer' at heart I suggest that he refuses to pay the insurers any increase, instead of attempting to extract it (on the double) from Aer Rianta and his customers.

Of course he won't do that, because the Insurance companies aren't the pushovers that Aer Rianta are. MOL loves a soft target...as you've pointed out so clearly.

[Das Pferd]

mjenkinsblackdog, can you (would you) really off load people for your own personal reasons because of a post of this forum?

[Pengineer]

Why don't all prospective applicants "unilaterally deduct" 50% of the conversion course cost, and offer to do their conversion course at that place that does it for $6000, I'm sure Mick would understand, hes a businessman after all.
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/joker.gif

[Mike-Hunt]

Guv,

I'm a PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT PILOT HOPE IT HURTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Guvnor]

mike-hunt - and your point is...?

pengineer - good one... as I said, my understanding is that if you come in with the rating in place that's fine by FR - they just whack you if you don't have it. Anyone on here from FR that can confirm?

[GuvBuster]

Guvvie,

When will you go on leave, soon???

[dickyd]

This is all so funny! wot we fighting about agian? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Guvnor you will know when your walking down the steps .You have pissed off most pilots on here so stick to the trains. :mad:

[Idunno]

You're quite right 'big flight'...it's hard to keep track of a thread when the Guv gets going. He is a master of digression and diversion.
I guess he has to be since logic and reason desert him so quickly.

The subject was FR making a unilateral reduction of 50% in the fees it will pay to Aer Rianta (and only Aer Rianta).

Let's see if he can shut up or stick to the point. Either would give welcome relief.

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: Idunno ]

[Das Pferd]

mjenkinsblackdog and Idunno take a look at yourselves you have been wound up so much by the Guv that you are now making yourselves look like a bunch of plonkers. And to think that you guys may be flying over my house..?

[mjenkinsblackdog]

DAS stick to coffee tasting and stay out of this discussion. :cool:

[sgt.culpepper]

Idunno, I don't think Mo'L has found Aer Rianta to be such a soft target. As I recall they took him for £500,000 last year over disputed Airport fees, half of which was costs and interest. His ongoing spat with Aer Rianta has little to do with money but everything to do with free publicity.I'ts a strategy he uses in all his business areas, and it is very successful.However what pees him off with Aer Rianta is that he is getting nowhere fast and the Irish minister it seems won't even talk to him .He also talks about getting the go ahead to open up new routes out of Ireland if only airport charges were lower. Two things about that . One, he doesen't need permission from anyone to start up routes, and two , I see that last week aer rianta announced a no charges deal for 3/4 years for any airline opening new routes out of Dub/Cork or Shannon airports.
So it looks like Aer Rianta are calling his bluff!

[Idunno]

Dear Das Pferd, what in god's name are you on about? :confused: If anyone was getting 'wound up' it was Guvnor attacking pilots (again) as whingers, as you might see by reading the thread again. I disassociate myself entirely with any comments about off-loading people (even the Guvnor).
If you don't mind we'll continue with the debate while you go off and swop insults with mjenkinsblackdog. :rolleyes:

SgtCulpepper is right about the 'PR' aspect of O'Learys comments. Sometimes I think everything that MOL says is solely directed at winding up the media into another frenzy of excitement over the latest stunt. Free front page news can't hurt...who was it said that there's no such thing as bad publicity.

Let's see if he really has the nerve to pull this 50% charges stunt...or if it's just another wind-up.

[The Guvnor]

Das Pferd - I don't think that Idunno is having a go or anything - the discussion was deviated somewhat by westjet and I was debating two different points. However, Idunno is quite right - the subject under discussion is FR and Aer Rianta.

I suspect, however, that mjenkinsblackdog may have rabies and might have to be put down :D :rolleyes: :D

Back to the subject at hand...

Yep, MO'L does use rather 'Bransonesque' PR tactics. Aer Rianta offer a deal to everyone - even FR - that instead of the charges I provided above they have a 100% discount (ie free) on landing and passenger charges on new routes. This offer was originally for three years; I understand it's been extended to four.

However, the animosity between MO'L and Aer Rianta goes a lot deeper than just charges. They have been long time advocates of a second, non-Aer Rianta terminal at DUB and it looks like they have got their way. It's probable that this terminal will be a joint venture between FR and the McEvaddys.

There are persistent rumours about Aer Rianta being cut lose from the government's apron strings, and if that happens, things could get rather interesting.

Looking at things from Aer Rianta's perspective though, they really don't want the low cost carriers. Sure, they bring in lots of passengers - but as LTN has found with EZY, they end up costing the airport more than the revenue they bring in. In addition, having a low cost carrier on a route is a barrier to entry for a full service airline or a start-up - except of course for other low cost operators (eg the current dogfights going on between EZY, FR and GO).

When I was at the Routes conference in Dublin a few weeks ago, a number of airports made it very clear that they would not welcome the likes of FR.

FR - and its ilk - needs to grow at around 25% per annum to keep its investors happy - and of course the bigger it gets the bigger that 25% leap has to be. Finding viable new routes will be the biggest problem they face.

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[dickyd]

are u a piloT? do u argue with everyone? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[A/c Slave]

I have been a long time observer of Pprune and being also in the industry I always learn alot from all the shared info and views here.

But the I feel the need to put in my 2 pence here on behalf of the 'Guv'.
'Hey Guv', thankx for all the info and updates you have passed on to us all here, please continue the good work.

For all the others that continue to attack him, you all are very sad and need to grow up!

I challenge the lot of you to come up with any of the info that the 'Guv' has been constantly suppling for our benifit,(even with the bashing of his name). He's a good sport! Can't say the same about some of you.

He's well informed and up to date and is trying to share this knowledge with us and idiots like some try to prevent that!

'Have a nice day!' :) :) :) :) :)

[Tug]

For what's it worth, I work for Ryanair. I am an FO.
I fly 900 hrs a year. I make about £3000. per month after tax.
Pilots starting with Ryanair today as an FO will also fly 900 hrs a year. They will make about £1500. a month after tax. They will also have to pay for their car parking. And their uniform. And their type rating. And when they are told that they will have to move to a European base, they will have to pay for that move and accept a lower salary, ie less than £1500 per month.
When time comes for a command, they will have to accept that there could be a high chance that they will not be getting the same salary as present Captains.
They will still fly 900 hrs a year.

I like flying for Ryanair. There is a great bunch of guys there and on the whole not too many whinge. We work hard and get paid very well for that work.

But the new guys will work just as hard and not get paid very well.

It's up to those who have the money to spend on a type rating to decide whether the cost is worth it. MOL is banking on Sept 11th to persuade pilots that it is. Is any job at any wage better than none? Some will say yes.

And remember, Ryanair NO LONGER PAYS HIGH WAGES ANYMORE to those who are thinking of joining. It will be a low wage, low cost airline.

That's how I see it. Let the criticisms come my way. Yes, I do get paid a lot. That was the incentive to fly 900 hrs a year.
Is £1500 pm incentive enough for the new guys? It must be because they are applying.
How much can you expect to earn once you've been in a while, say as a Captain. I can't answer that because there will be a take or leave it offer upon getting your command determined at the time by the appropriate market forces.
I would like to stress I am saying it as it is to the best of my ability. I have done well out of Ryanair as have hundreds of others. But it is no longer a place for new guys, experienced or otherwise, to make oodles of money for loads of flying.

There, that's my piece. I don't think I have been negative or positive. :p :p

[jumpseater]

Slave, when I read Guv's posts re the area of the industry I know most about, his info is frequently wrong, therefore he is often ill informed and out of date. He does post some usefull discussion topics I'll agree, however he often follows it with inaccurate speculation which winds a lot of people up, myself included on occasion. For example regarding airport operations, stating some time ago that easyJet were having problems with their Liverpool base, however easyJet at that time, had just signed a 25 year deal with Peel Holdings re operating at Liverpool. He could not have been more wrong had he tried!.

I do recall on another discussion board he admitted to impersonating a female lawyer to prove his point. At that moment he lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned, I am probably not alone in that respect.

[A/c Slave]

I agree 'Jumpseater', some of his post are inaccurate.
But his overall contributions have been better than most here.

I don't know where the hell he gets his info from or where he works etc, he can be an aviation wanna be or super spotter or whatever,,,
It's just that I found that too many people were knocking the bloke for no reason now. Even like in this thread where his contributions were one of the most with PROPER and to the point infomation, while everyone was concerntrating on bashing him than trying to carry on an intelligent debate.

This site 'PPRUNE' was set up for the avaition industry to have a common meeting place to share ideas, info, knowledge and RUMOUR!
Lets keep it that way!! ;)


'Have a nice day' :) :) :) :) :)

[Idunno]

Tug has just made one of the most informative and important posts yet on this thread, but you guys are (yet again) distracted by The Guvnors antics. Ignore them.

I don't know who Tug is but as an FR pilot he's saying everything that I've been forecasting would happen is alrady occurring.

Look, if you were gonna start an airline where you needed maximum turnover to survive...wouldn't you want the pilots kept happy and productive? Of course you would!
So how do you achieve that? Pay 'em well, and use large incentive payments to extract the work. It's a formula that the Ryans were using long before MOL or Ryanair were ever heard of.

But (and it's a big but) the day will eventually come when keeping the pilots happy doesn't need to cost so much any more...and where the incentive to work is provided by outside factors. (i.e. work or starve.)

That day has arrived.

So, our hero (well maybe yours...not mine) has decided he can extract an extra mile or two from the faithfull. Like it or lump it.
You know where the door is...etc.

I hope that reality is finally dawning on you all. MOLs only friend is the share price.
I feel your pain.

[The Guvnor]

Idunno - now who's getting distracted? I thought this thread was supposed to be about FR and Aer Rianta! :D :rolleyes: :D

Seriously, though, this is precisely what I have been saying will happen for months now. Pay rates are going to come waaaaaaay down, across the board, for all carriers. MO'L is simply the vanguard - everyone else is watching him to see if he can make it work. And when - not if - he does, everyone else will jump on the bandwagon. If you don't like it - to quote yourself - you know where the door is.

There are more than sufficient people out there who are happy to fly for the love of it to compensate for loss of those who only fly because its an overpaid job.

Frankly, £1,500 nett for someone on the bottom of the ladder is not a bad whack at all - that would be a gross of over £2,000 per month.

If the revised Captain's pay will be on a similar basis - ie 50% of what it is at present - then you're looking at a take-home of around £2,500 with a gross of around £4,000.

If I was in MO'Ls shoes, I'd be playing around with the allowances so that the take-home is maximised without it affecting the amount being paid out by FR; and again I'd be doing what Southwest does - give everyone share options. Other than that, I reckon those figures are pretty fair - and realistic - all things considered.

Hopefully, these cost cuts will enable our industry to stay aloft.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[sgt.culpepper]

Guvnor, not sure I fully agree with your analysis of the FR/Aer Rianta spat.A second terminal at Dublin will eventually be built many years down the line, but it will not be built by either FR or McEvaddy.Neither will it be a competing terminal.History shows that this formula does not work. As I said on other related threads, if competing terminals were such a great idea why dosen't every airport have one?
Ever heard of a duopoly.On your second point re EZY and LTN As far as i recall, Aer Rianta are fairly unique in that they run all or most of the shops etc . Pax are the life blood of any airport and the more of them the more oppertunitiy for shops bars etc to shake 'em down.I enjoy your posts and find them fairly accurate but I think you place too much credence on media stories.In my experience Media get it wrong at least 50% of the time.

[The Guvnor]

Sgt.Culpepper - I have to disagree with you re the second terminal; you only have to look at the way airports operate in the States (especially somewhere like New York) to see that competing terminals can and do work.

There's also no major difference in the way that Aer Rianta and say BAA work in terms of retailing: both own the main duty free shop, and both rent out space to third parties, forwhich they charge rent plus a concession fee (percentage of turnover).

[sgt.culpepper]

Guvnor, I disagree, Terminals do not compete in JFK or in the US in the real sense. They may compete in terms of branding or to some extent in terms of facilities. They DO NOT compete in term of price which is what Mo'L is seeking.

[The Guvnor]

Sgt Culpepper - I don't have the figures for JFK (largely because I never looked at flying there) but I do have the ones for LAX. And believe me, they do compete - TBIT vs Terminal 2 is a good comparison.

TBIT charge per turn for an L15: US$5,873
TBIT charge per pax for an L15: US$29.22

T2 charge per turn for an L15: US$4,818
T2 charge per pax for an L15: US$3.76

In any case, as I understand it, Mary O'Rourke has stated quite categorically that the new terminal at DUB is to be privately owned and operated.

[Capt PPRuNe]

OK, time to lay down the law! :mad:

Whilst many people do not like the style or content of the Guvnors posts and I agree that he can be extremely irritating much of the time, that does not give any of you the right to use this bulletin board to prove your own pathetic shortcomings and lack of intellectual ability. As long as the Guvnor makes his comments in a civil manner and does not break any PPRuNe rules then he will be allowed to continue posting.

I am getting fed up with the likes of 'Brakes to Park', 'lineup', 'mjenkinsblackdog', 'Mike-Hunt', 'GuvBuster' and 'life is just one big flight' who whilst they don't like the content of the Guvnors posts are only able to make a reply that would take the mental capacity of a five year old! If you can't make a response that argues the point without resorting to what can only be described as a 'dummy spit' and childish tantrum then please do me and the vast majority of PPRuNers a favour and don't bother replying at all.

From now on, if anyone replies to a post by the Guvnor (or anyone else who manages to stir up neanderthal emotions such as 411a and their ilk) and cannot use words of more than one syllable and string them together into an argument to counter the often misleading and pompous style then please don't bother at all. We all like debate and we can all deal with one liner replies IF they are at least delivered with wit and a tiny bit of forethought!

Yes, the Guvnor is always ready to put his twopennethworth in to just about any topic on PPRuNe and he often does it with a style that irritates because of its tone of superiority his apparent (sic) knowledge of all things aviation and excess pomposity but at least he usually does it without resorting to petty insults. Most of us are able to contain our anger at his often distorted quotes which he puts out as though he is an authority but in reality most of us are able to see through most of it and together with his often erroneous comments about some flight deck practices, manage to either read it and move on or provide a counter argument which shows him not to be the most knowledgeable person in aviation.

So, if you continue to make what equates to 'screaming one liner rants' at the Guvnor instead of either replying with something which is at least witty if not able to counter the argument then do not do so. Repeat offenders will be barred from making more posts because I need all the space and capacity I can get on the server. Just consider the Guvnor like one of those tabloid columnists who are employed to wind everyone up with an opposing point of view. Most people read them but then move on and get on with the rest of their lives and the regular news.

One thing that has made PPRuNe successful is the variety of input from many different points of view, unfortunately some have a habit of making theirs ad nauseum but if I were to stop people like the Guvnor from making posts just because you don't like their point of view then this would become a very boring place indeed as everyone just agreed with each other. The Guvnor is extremely machiavellian and those of you who are manipulated by him without your realising it need a wake up call and a short course in grammar or a free subscription to the Readers Digest 'increase your word power'. (Come to think of it so do I... I think!)
:rolleyes:

[upperecam]

Danny,if you need all the server time/space you can muster I would argue that NR is a major drain on the resources of Pprune. It is a professional pilots' site and brilliant at that. However as a personal acquaintance of you know who I can assure you that he has not one jot of qualification for inclusion on the site.
As for Guv Buster the name alone together with the location I find very amusing. Does this humour not therefore qualify him for posting? If NR is allowed to continue please let us be able to play with him too, please. Pretty please.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[airbourne]

Ok sports fans back to the programme!!!!

Firstly Ryanair do offer SOME low fares, thats where it ends for the pax because they try and do screw as much cash out of you for everything else. They make money on the taxes, £3 credit card fee, when a company like Ryanair is handling a lot of money and probably pays no more than 1.5 % of the transaction in fees. Thes theres the on-board stuff, drinks, tea, coffe, sambos all which cost a fraction of the charge and theres super margins. Forgot about checkin! You have your baggage allowance, but you go over that and the low paid workers in check in will pounch on you and charge excess baggage rates, whoever gets the highest at the end of the day gets to go home early or at the end of the month might win a poxy voucher

All in all, Ryanair is here to make money, and make money they do. Now I admire MOL and the way he does business, but I dont admire the way he gives out about Aer Rianta, Boeing, the Government, etc, anyone who crosses him all in the name of his passengers when he cant even treat his staff well enough. Ryanair will be left standing after others have collapsed, but at what price, pax are not stupid and will only take so much from MOL.

[Sid's Stars]

Guvvie's OK. Its some of the other arrogant tw*ts around here that have sense of humour failure that I reckon should be banned for wasting space. He might be talking cr*p about some things but theres lots of other areas hes been spot on about, including the recession, pay cuts, companies going bust and so on. Whether thats inside info or whether he's just amazingly astute, I don't know, but if hes that good on the geegees he doesn't need to be messing around with clapped out 3*s!

[Fluke Skywalker]

Right Guvnor, I'll try and communicate with you in an intelligent fashion.

There are more than sufficient people out there who are happy to fly for the love of it to compensate for loss of those who only fly because its an overpaid job.

Frankly, £1,500 nett for someone on the bottom of the ladder is not a bad whack at all

I love flying, so say I spent £60,000 on my ab initio training then another £10,000 (guess) on my multi-crew CRM course I'd be £70,000 + accumulating interest in debt before I even wrote to MO'L for a job. He'd then make me pay for my conversion course and all in all I'd end up about £85-100,000 in debt (incl. the cost of living whilst training) by the time I took home my first FR pay cheque of £1500 "as someone on the bottom of the ladder". But that doesn't matter because I love flying.

Those debts are going to be impossible to pay off on my salary and the future doesn't look quite as rosy as it did when I grew up, unless my name's MO'L of course who's employed me as a fully qualified First Officer with just the cost of some route training and heck those flights had to be operated anyway! But that doesn't matter because I love flying, hell I'll even pay for my uniform...

I'm now flying 900 hrs a year as a new First Officer on my shiny new B737-800/rusting old B737-200 (can you imagine 900 hrs on a -200!). I'm getting tired, and just managing to keep ahead of the a/c; Christ there's alot of people down the back depending on me and I've only got 500 hrs. Still at least the company appreciates the responsibility that I have for our customers and the company's future. Oh hang on, they don't they pay me less than a photocopier engineer. Oh silly me, what should I expect I'm at the bottom of the ladder and I've only spent £100,000 getting there; what a generous man I am saving all that money for MO'L, but it's worth it because I love flying. :p

[MarkD]

airbourne,

the only reason anyone would want to buy food on an FR flight is because they are sick of the gouging in the pax areas at DUB - one squillion quid for an orange juice [bottled] and sambo [plastic] and no avgas used to transport it :mad:

If you want to eat on most forms of transport it's pretty expensive and not very satisfying, as users of Irish Rail can attest.

FR state that if you use a debit card, you don't pay the fee - haven't tried at as I prefer visa but feel free to take a look.

If they "make money" on the taxes, then I'm sure EI et al can refer them to the director of consumer affairs, or you can do so yourself!

[The Guvnor]

Fluke Skywalker - I can see where you're coming from but even so, pilots are not the only group in that position. What about doctors? Want to hazard a guess as to how long the training takes and how much it costs - plus how little you earn and how long hours you work whilst doing it?

[A/c Slave]

'Well said Danny!'




:) :) :) :) :)

[johntrav69]

Mmmmh, Low salaries/High Training charges=no bank prepared to loan money for training=2 years time no pilots qualifying=pilot shortage=pay rises!!

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

I know a F/O at Ryannair who is on the old higher pay scale and he says he's so busy/fatigued on his days off, he never has any decent time off to enjoy life or spend his earnings! Certainly not my cup of tea! There's far too many FR check in girls out in Tomangoes to be played with, than working O'Learys nightshift!
I can imagine on the new pay and conditions, guys will immediately realise what a bad deal they're on and leave Ryannair.
It's quite simple, the Guys will just move onto greener pastures, leaving Ryannair to become an extension of the flight training system!

[airbourne]

Ah! Tamangos!! Where the gang still go!!

[EI - E I - O]

I have just got to mention this!! I have just got off the FR and the Aer Lingus Web pages. I need to go to Man on the Wednesday the 25th of Oct. and return on the same day. I got on the FR website filled in the details and wham £14.7something each way, plus taxes, plus lifevest, plus 50p for the lights on the aircraft etc, etc and it totaled £49 BIG ONES, NOT BAD FOR A same day return.

Now, remembering Mr Des Gerathys words last week on the news and I still think he got a waft of Eamon Dunphys beer breath over the telephone, before he came out with this GEM (by the way for our allies in the U.K., Dessie is the Union Rep for Aer Lingus) he said we should show solidarty for the national carrier etc, so I went to www.save (http://www.save) the national carrier website, typed in the essentials and WHAM! the webpage dissappeared, O.K. I said, national carrier, 2,500 jobs, a lot of forests saved this christmas, if those people cant have X-Mas trees and went throught the procedure, well FOOK ME PINK, £449! They shower in the green want £449, for a same day return, now I selected the promotional fare, not the flexable return, god knows, what kind of Teleban Fanaticism is required to book that fare. I'm sorry but good god what planet as these people on?? The havent a hope against, Micheal and his wooloey Jumper. But, if Mr Gerathy agreed to pay say £400 of the fare, then I would go, considering I might like the "Rubber egg" and the cloned cocktail saussie on the AL flight.

Not Likely, I'm going FR, now I've knocked them in the past and probably rightly so, but the big Golden Harp is going to have to become my new National Emblom!! For the sake of £400 and a 20 minute hop to Man!

[gyrohead]

I think I can smell Eamonn Dunphy's beer breath on that last post :D

[MarkD]

EI promo fares are min 2 night max 14 nights. A guy in the Irish Times yesterday was asked for 600 IEP to Paris.

EI aren't attracting business fares which should be the point of the exercise - they're the ones who really want this so-called "full service". The SLF at the back will go back to Ryanair when the fares go back up.

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

The website does give outrageous fares, it is complete rubbish if you ask me, I think the software logic used is absolute dross. The people who designed it should be fired!

Phone up the EI reservations for the real fares.

[airbourne]

The EI website is a waste of time. Got quoted £3800 for a promotional fare to LAX. This was also going through SNN. Rang Aer lingus, spoke to a nice girl who quoted just under £400!!

[EI - E I - O]

One million quid versus £15,000 that just about puts their fares in proportionas well!

The only thing is, that if AL stopped operating, or under a different form, would FR Become the "Big Green Monster" and start charging, £449 for a Rtn to Man, which is approx 40 minutes flight time or approx, £10 a minute!!! Not even AL services is worth that, I could buy everyone on the FR flight and still be better off than going with the price quoted on the AL Website.

PS I did ring a friend in AL, Custumer Services about a price and she said, " I'm embarresed to quote you the farer!" Soon the only people in Premeir will be the AL staff on cheapies!!

[The Guvnor]

Umm, no, actually, El Nino the Ryanair site is by OpenSkies (who also power EZY, Go, Virgin Express, Virgin Blue, Southwest, JetBlue etc etc) and it costs a hell of a lot more than £15k!!

OpenSkies was developed by David Neeleman - yep the same one that set up Morris Air and sold it to Southwest; set up WestJet in Canada and latterly set up the best funded startup in US airline history - JetBlue. He sold OpenSkies to HP in 1999, I think; and it now belongs to Navitaire.

For more information, check out here. (http://www.navitaire.com/)

[ElNino]

Perhaps the Ryanair site is now run by Navitaire, but when it was first set up it was by students and cost about £15k.

[maxalt]

Or perhaps it's just the FR publicity department spinning again!

Urban legends anyone?

[MEVERTSGB]

Nothing wrong with The Guvnor's postings. That's why he is THE GUVNOR !!

As regards MOLs desire to unilaterally slash landing fees, good luck to him. I'd love to see his face when Aer Rianta impound his a/c pending payment of of outstanding fees (which I hope they will do). The guy is nothing more than a daylight robber (like his greek counterpart at sleazyJet). MOL doesn't want to pay landing fees, doesn't want to pay his crew decent salaries. I bet he hasn't slashed his personal salary yet. Perhaps he should relocate to Vietnam where people are still happy to be paid a bowl of rice for a day's work. Uncle Ben's Express ?

[maxalt]

Yeah, did you see the photo of him in the Irish Sunday Independant business section?

He was attending the thoroughbred sales at Goffs. Big 'ceegar' in one hand, sales program in the other, and none other than Tony Ryan himself with an avuncular hand on Micks shoulder. O'Leary bends down to the titch with a slight smirk on his face...every inch of him looking the gombeen man and cute hoor he truly is...'Thanks Mick for making my net wealth quadruple in the last few years...you're a good lad'(says Tony). 'Don't mention it boss' says the smirking Mick, 'just wait 'til I deal wit dose bleedin shoites of poilots and we'll double our money again...har har harrrrrr!'

God they turn my stomach.

[Lawyaire]

Guv, the booking tool is OpenSkies, but the website design is a separate issue - it has to interface with OpenSkies, so there will be a number of constraints as to how it can look, but I don't believe OpenSkies even do web design - and if they do, they certainly don't do it for all of the airlines you mentioned.

Just wanted to clarify that - now back to your regularly scheduled discussions

[ElNino]

Quite right Lawyaire, maybe I didn't make myself clear: the site was designed by, but not run by said students for said price.
Have we found a chink in the Guvs armour? :eek:

[The Guvnor]

EINino - OK, apologies tendered. I thought you were talking about the whole system.