121.5 - Where Am I...

[M14P]

Last Sunday I was eavsdropping on 121.5 and I heard a developing scenario that I believe would be useful and interesting to most Ppruners:

I came on frequency maybe a few transmissions after the start but the general thrust was apparent throughout. (I wrote notes for future reference!). A light aircraft was clearly lost and was receiving a service from the D&D cell to rectify the situation. It became clear that the pilot had not prepared for navigation very well (most obvious was that he was on 121.5 but many other comments made it clear that this was not a well planned flight). The Controller established a few basic parameters initially - her demeanour was very reassuring and professional (we really do have the best controllers in the world - they even sound good). She started with simple questions; from my vantage point it was very clear that maximum effort was being made to ensure a low additional workload for the pilot. A basic position plot - expressed as a compass point from a major town - was the first piece of information. Response from the pilot was still rather confused and monosyllabic he appeared to be trying to downplay the severity of his predicament.

She immediately picked up on the subtle nuances in his voice and quickly swung into a more in-depth phase of assistance: She asked the pilot to "...transmit for DF...". The pilot responded with only a short burst of transmission - first learning point: Transmit for DF is standard (but rarely used) phraseology that you might have forgotten from your RT exam but it has a very specific response (for longer transmission time). Can you remember it?

The controller asked for a longer transmission and suggested counting to five and back again (I believe she used this task to gauge further capacity of the pilot too but he didn't manage too well - amazing how even simple tasks become full of errors when 'loaded up'). She then gave a much more accurate position and quizzed the pilot on some more details. Was he on a NAVEX? Final destination? Last known position? Surprisingly the pilot was unable to provide a last known position AT ALL. Again I would surmise that this was due to an ever deepening desire to be on the ground, in the bar with a pint.

Gently the controller teased out a few more details (I suspect that causing a loss of aircaft control was a real concern thus her transmissions remained perfectly measured for the situation). She asked if the pilot could see a very large prominent road she was aware of a rough heading thanks to the longer DF trace. I was incredibly surprised at the amount of topographic detail the controller was able to provide. Not only that but it was provided in an incredibly relevant manner - a logical sequence Large road>>direction>>service station. The impression given was one of the controller sitting right next to the pilot pointing out features. I was very impressed.

Once the controller had positively identified the position of the aircraft she started to ask what the pilot had marked up on his map (answer: nothing). She asked what major features he might know (answer: none). To be honest a less charitable person (i.e. Me) might have just mentioned that they deserved to get lost with that sort of flight planning. Again I was amazed by the amount of detail fed back to the pilot including track monitoring and morsels such as 'you will see a big country house with a large garden' (remember, none of this is using radar - only DF).

In the end she put the pilot in a position where his confidence seemed to return a little and (more importantly) he could identify the airfield. Having been furnished with the frequency he was sent on his way (it appeared that the destination had been informed by D&D). He left without any thanks but I like to think that he dropped D&D a line to thank them for a stunning job.

A few things jumped out at me:
1. The controller had a 'feel' for navigating a light aircraft and could empathise with the pilot;
2. The controller was very attuned to the possible ramifications of overloading the pilot;
3. The service extended well beyond just talking on the radio;
4. The data available to the controller was excellent;
5. A nice long DF transmission makes the job much easier for the controller;
6. I could well have missed it but I didn't hear the controller ask about endurance;
7. It's a thankless task being on the D&D cell (or it seemed it).

Fair play to the pilot - at least he had the good sense to ask for help.

I'd love to hear other pilots' experiences and maybe some feedback from controllers. Also I'd like to thank the controller and watch staff that day for a job well done (just in case the pilot never called!)

[Timothy]

I know that cross-posts are generally frowned on, but you might want to put this on the ATC forum as well.

Timothy

[Thief13x]

wow, gives me the chills. How can a pilot ever get that lost? Hope its never me

Intresting story:ok:

Maybe i will try monitering 121.5 some time:E :ok:

[LowNSlow]

Many moons ago, I was trundling up from Southampton to Beccles and I thought I'd try a practice PAN call. I wasn't lost (I could see Sarf End clearly from where I was) I recalled a recommendation in Pilot that D&D enjoyed the practice if they weren't actually involved in a real PAN or MAYDAY.
I can only echo M14P 's comments, massively professional and would have been very reassuring in the event of a real PAN. Try it someday, it's worth the practice. Don't forget to listen out first just in case there is a real emergency transpiring though.

Slightly skewing the thread: apparently, alledgedly, maybe, once upon a time, the governer of a nameless prison on the Isle of Wight called up D&D to do something about the light aircraft that was (quite legally) flying around his prison. They had to inform him that shooting down the Cessna wasn't their line of buisiness. He had assumed that D&D meant Detect & Destroy!

[Another St Ivian]

I've never had to use 121.5 in anger fortunately, however I did once call them up for a training fix to see what the service was like. I was most impressed, my initial call was immediately answered and I was given my position, details of landmarks beneath me and the position of the nearest airfield relative to my current heading (i.e. "Airfield in your right 3 o'clock, 5 miles"). It was very reassuring to know that should I ever get lost a quick radio call could soon rectify the problem.

ASI

[montster]

When doing my PPL my instructor took me up in some really poor weather to practice lost procedures and we tuned in to to 121.5 to do a practice pan, but they were already dealing with someone who'd used the poor weather to get genuinely lost. He was obviously in much worse weather and had been forced down to about 500 ft, at which point D&D couldn't find him. They were trying to establish where he might be by quizzing him about headings and times since he left the airfield. An airline pilot even joined in the conversation to try and help him out! In the end he made a forced landing in a field, but ran into the barbed wire fence at the end.

If my instructor was trying to teach me to never go flying in weather like that without an IMC rating, he succeeded!

[witchdoctor]

Not a service I have used since I first learnt to fly with the UAS, and that was only a training demo from the FI. It may well be something to consider familiarising myself with next time I'm up, as I tend to fly all over the country and it would be interesting to see how easy it would be to use the service at fairly low level.

As for being lost, it can happen to all of us early on in our flying. I used to be lost within about 10 mins of take off every time the UAS sent me solo. I'm sure the ATCO's in Leeming Approach used to run a sweepstake on how long it would be until I called for a steer every time I went up.:O In my defence, at that point in my training, the RAF hadn't taught me Nav and there aren't a geat deal too many visual landmarks over the Pennines.

Assuming that this exchange wasn't actually a training excercise (having missed the initial calls nobody can be sure), if the pilot in question has a reasonable chunk of experience under his/her belt, then I hope they feel suitably embarassed to go and do some serious nav revision and prepare more thoroughly for their next trip.

[montster]

Also, on a solo nax ex, I couldn't find my home airfield - hadn't been sharp enough of my times and had probably flown right over it. I new that I was very close to the Luton zone, so orbited and got straight onto Luton for a QDM instead of 121.5 (in case I had already busted their zone). They were very helpful and stopped talking to everyone else gave me the QDM, corrected it for wind after about 1 minute and made sure I got back (I hadn't busted the zone). And I did thank them before I changed frequency:O

[M14P]

I'm as sure as can be that it was not a practise. If it was then it was exceedinly realistic and swamped 121.5 for 25 mins (to the detriment of any real emergencies!)

[Whirlybird]

Firstly, don't be too hard on this guy without knowing the details. Sounds like he was inexperienced, certainly. But he may have just gone for a local jolly, so not bothered to draw a line on his chart; then the vis got worse... He may have been intending to follow a line feature, but lost it. He may have gone out to practise nav without any lines on his map, in preparation for a diversion - I've done that, it's quite useful practice. But whatever the scenario, being lost, overloaded, and scared can get your brain to the point that you hardly know your own name, never mind where you are - and carrying on a sensible conversation becomes very hard.

My experience of using D & D in earnest was a few weeks after I got my PPL(A). I flew from Welshpool to Oxford, met a friend for lunch, and started to fly back. Because I thought the cloudbase had lowered, I planned to head North to the Telford area, then West. The vis got worse, I got lost, I blundered around for maybe half an hour as I was scared to tell anyone, then told London Info I was lost. They told me to call D & D, who within 30 seconds told me: "You're three miles south of Birmingham Airport. Can you call them on ...." My initial reaction was; "Oh no, I can't call Birmingham; they'll kill me!" But they didn't of course. A very calm, kind ATCO directed me via the motorway system back to the M54 in the direction of Telford. He gently tried to persuade me to land at Halfpenny Green (now Wolverhampton) when he realised the vis was close to VFR limits, but didn't push it when I refused (stupidly, with hindsight!). When I thanked him profusely for his help, saying I was very new to flying and really not up to coping with all that had happened, he asked if I wanted to stay with him as long as I could, saying it was quite OK if I didn't feel up to talking to someone new yet. So understanding, and so very very kind! In fact I was OK by then, and I went back to London Info, who recognised either my voice or the callsign, and gently teased me about the whole thing.

That whole episode was a great learning experience for me. It also stopped me being scared of talking on the radio. And yes, D & D are wonderful. And so are many other ATCOs, in situations where we really need them. They may not like you being in their airspace unannounced. But if you are, they'd rather you talked to someone so that they can get you safely back on your way home and/or on the ground

(If anyone is interested, this account was published in more detail as a ILAFFT - "Lost Over Birmingham" - in Pilot, Jan 2001)

[FlyingForFun]

M14P,

Thanks for the comprehensive report. I think I will print that off and file it away for future reference: reference of how disoriented it's possible to become when the chips are really down, and reference of how helpful D&D can be.

Have never had to use either D&D or any other ATC service when I've been truely lost, but I have asked for help on occassion, and I have to re-iterate what others have said: we have the best ATC in the world, IMHO, so use them! My most memorable experience to date was when they helped me locate an invisible farm-strip. I'd spent the best part of 15 minute circling overhead the area where I believed the strip to be, but couldn't see it, so I contacted a nearby radar facility. They gave me headings and distances, dug out their own copy of, I presume, Lockyears and passed me information about the strip, and generally reassured me.

I did eventually find the strip. I had become so fixed on a runway-like bit of concrete that wasn't quite the right orientation that I completely failed to notice the narrow, straight bit of unmarked road, just 100 yards away, that was the strip I was looking for. I'd been in the right place all along, and the information they gave me about the strip I already knew from my own copy of Lockyears, so there was really no practical help they could offer me, but even so it was great to have a reassuring voice on the other end of the r/t doing his best to help me, and no doubt stopped me from becoming disoriented in the that this guy seems to have been when M14P overheard him.

Glad that, in the case M14P overheard, it seems that everything turned out ok.

FFF
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[M14P]

I'm trying not to be hard on the chap whirlly...

More interesting was the psychological aspects:

When the controller asked what he would recognise he said 'Nowhere' - surely that's not true. More likely it was an indicator of ever deepening desperation. What I was hearing was a man succumbing to (however small) the onset of a panic reaction (Hyperthalamus taking over, narrowing of multitasking abilities etc). We can all learn from that...

Imagine the situation - mates/family on board started off like a nice little jolly, dawning realisation that you really don't know where you are. That feature over there might be useful. You start weaving about and, Hey Presto! Lost. Family sensing your uncertainty. Mood on board is changing... Sounds like you know what I'm talking about, Whirly. It's amazing how quickly it can go from a nice day out to not very much fun at all. I found it fabulous that the controller picked up on all of that in the pilot's voice. She offloaded nearly all of the workload save for actually flying the aircraft - presumably that's Rule Number One at D&D.

We can all learn from something like that, I hope. Maybe this post will make a few people read CAP371 and possibly practise a bit of 'finding yourself' (why don't you try to fly an unplanned diversion, for example).

cheers all

[IO540]

If GPS usage was properly incorporated into the PPL syllabus, and into all applicable aircraft, these completely avoidable situations would rarely if ever occur.

If every flying school had a PC with internet access and made it a habit that every departing pilot gets the full set of weather reports before walking out of the door, it would happen even less.

D&D go a super job, but I was amazed at their anti-GPS attitude at a recent MCASD presentation.

[Rote 8]

Interesting thread. Having never used the service I don’t really have much to add (I really ought to contact them one day for a practice fix).

However with respect to the appropriate phraseology for a DF transmission I am sure that I heard somewhere that just transmitting carrier wave for a handful of seconds is better than saying anything as the carrier alone gives a better trace than a voice transmission (although it should be prefaced by “G ROTE transmitting for DF” or similar).

Can anyone confirm if this is true or not?

[bookworm]

While I obviously don't know the details of location and can't guarantee that this took place in SSR cover, doesn't this support the idea that all student solo should be carried out in aircraft equipped with a Mode A/C transponder?

[FlyingForFun]

Bookworm,

Who said anything about solo students? If anything, I would guess that this is unlikely to have been a solo student.... I would like to think any instructor would ensure that his students are sufficiently well prepared before a solo flight for such a situation to be very unlikely to arise?

FFF
--------------

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

I was lucky enough to visit the D & D cell at LATCC earlier this year (a combined PPRuNe / Flyer Forum visit). It was fascinating to see the resources available to them - a real mix of hi-tech and lo-tech. The DF works with a PC based mapping system that goes to the detail of OS maps and even the London A to Z. They can literally ask questions like "can you see a church with a spire in your 10 O'clock?".

The controllers are specially trained in the psychological aspects of the job like teasing information out of embarrassed and / or panicking pilots.

The controllers are VERY happy to support practice pans and "temporarily unsure of position" fixes. Just remember to listen out on frequency first to ensure there is not a real emergency in progress.

TG152

[18greens]

M14P what a great post.

I followed a D&D emergency once. We were an a general training flight somewhere in the south of england when an A/C came on frequency saying he was lost. He knew where he was going from and to but did not know where he was. The field told him to contact D&D, we followed. The ac was just a couple of miles offtrack. D&D were superb and talked him onto base leg at the destination then said call XXXX for landing. Just as the pilot thought he was home and dry the field came on and said words to the effect of 'Who told you to enter my circuit pattern go around we have conflicting traffic'.That must have sent the poor guy into a right state. I presume D&D called the field and mentioned the situation to the field so I don't know what was going through

Anyway I think D&D are brill and if you haven't given them a Practice Pan to find out how good they are do it before you need to do it. Any instructor will brief you if you are unsure of what to say. My instructor got a letter from them for making the most Practice Pans in the country one year. D&D seemed to view it as a good thing.

[bookworm]

Who said anything about solo students? If anything, I would guess that this is unlikely to have been a solo student.... I would like to think any instructor would ensure that his students are sufficiently well prepared before a solo flight for such a situation to be very unlikely to arise?

Point taken FFF. I have no evidence that students get lost while solo. It just seems like an obvious protective step, and it's students whom we tend to protect most carefully.

I presumed that the view that all aircraft should be equipped with a Mode A/C transponder would be even less popular... :)

[Penguina]

Further to Tall_Guy's post, I was at that trip too and they DO have basic radar. (Think someone said they didn't earlier on.)

[rodan]

A bit more than 'basic' radar, they have access to all the radar heads that London Military do (IIRC). The DF is another tool they have, but don't assume it's all done with that, they are more than capable of issuing a squawk/turn and identifying you. Same at Scottish D&D (they are a seperate entity, in a room in the corner at ScOACC).

[M14P]

To clarify - I'm fairly good at using my experience to identify a likely background in situations like this. I looked up the Reg on G-INFO afterwards - the aircraft was privately owned (i.e. unlikely to be a student). He also didn't sound like a student (if that makes sense - he just sounded hassled, really)

I don't think it was really a 'worsening weather' situation either - it was mid-afternoon; the sinking sun might have played a part but generally the weather was great. That's another case-in-point: You can convince yourself that you are lost eve though it's severe clear!

D&D eventually assigned a squawk but that was much later (once the ontroller appeared satisfied that all was under control. Presumably (and I'd love to know) the DF trace is used to identify a primary trace that the controller then works with - somebody let me know. The 'can you see a church spire'-thing really amazed me. The human factors apect fascinated me too (as you can tell, that's kind of my thing)

IO-540 - why do the CAA/NATS/Flying clubs generally not embrace GPS more: God only knows. I think that they're all mad.

cheers

[ACW 335]

I have used D&D twice both for training purposes. However, we have noticed that around the Basingstoke/Hook area, the fix you get from D&D is not accurate at all. Several pilots i know have tried D&D in this area and have had similar inaccuracies - anyone know why?!

[Aussie Andy]

Great thread! On a very minor point:the aircraft was privately owned (i.e. unlikely to be a student).I wouldn't necessarily correlate "privately owned" with "not a student" - lots of privately owned aircraft are in fact operated by clubs and used for training.

Andy

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

A few more random comments from my 45 minutes in D & D:

The DF was clearly the preferred method of location. RADAR was available, but secondary.

The triangulated "cocked hat" DF position is typically accurate to about 1 mile. I think the worst case is about 3 miles (I forget the exact figure) over England. Wales and UK extremities are more variable.

If you ask for a heading to your destination, they will give you the direct heading regardless of wether it cuts straight through, for example, the Gatwick CTA. You are still responsible for flying within the law. You could ask them to contact Gatwick approach (who is sitting in a different room at LATCC just along the corridoor from D & D) but don't assume that they will automatically.

The controllers would like to be called at the first hint of a mishap, rather than when it's all gone t!ts up and the situation is getting out of hand. If you call them up and then suddenly the problem goes away, they will be happy for you and not consider it a waste of their time.

D & D is manned by RAF controllers and the service was established primarily for military pilots in difficulty. Most of the equipment is rather old (lots of nice polished wooden control panels) and unsupported by the original manufacturers. There is a feeling that when the kit finally dies, it will not be replaced. The implication was that it would be cheaper (for the taxpayer) to lose the occasional Hawk into the side of a Welsh mountain :uhoh:

The more civvy pilots who use the service (hopefully just for practice), the better case there will be to keep it running .

TG.

[MLS-12D]

To be honest a less charitable person (i.e. Me) might have just mentioned that they deserved to get lost with that sort of flight planning.I'm a humanist myself, but when I was in the navy, we sometimes used to communicate by Biblical references. Here's some for you: (1) Matthew 7:1-5; (2) Luke 6:37; (3) John 8:7; (4) Romans 2:1.

I've been lost two or three times before, and probably will be again. It's a horrible feeling, and indeed can be positively debilitating. Let's not be so hard on this fellow. :ouch:

[Warped Factor]

Click here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/srg_gad_D&D_poster.pdf) for official D&D coverage on 121.5 in England and Wales.

WF.

[IO540]

How does SSR coverage compare with D&D's VDF coverage?

I know one cannot get full Radar Info unless the controller sees both primary and secondary returns, but for location purposes a transponder should be as good, down to a similar height AGL. And D&D get access to far more radars than a PPL.

If the two are comparable, the only advantage of D&D's VDF is that no transponder is needed. So after 2008 (mandatory Mode S) there won't be any need for the service - assuming of course that PPLs wishing to bust some airspace don't pull the circuit breaker before getting lost :O

Do the RAF's 7/8-figure-priced planes really get lost? They have IFF, for a start.

I know a Hawk pilot who says most don't have a GPS and they tend to use dead reckoning (although an ILS is part of the basic training) but then a Hawk isn't likely to see much action these days.

[Whirlybird]

I would guess that this is unlikely to have been a solo student.... I would like to think any instructor would ensure that his students are sufficiently well prepared before a solo flight for such a situation to be very unlikely to arise?


I got lost as a solo student, on my second solo cross country. It wasn't my instructor's fault at all.

I left Welshpool, flew to Great Malvern, turned as planned and flew back to Shobdon for my first ever solo landaway. All I had to do then was fly back to Welshpool, a total of 16 minutes. And I got lost. I missed Knighton, the only obvious landmark unless you're experienced in navigating in rural mountain areas, and ended up too far South. I saw a town, thought it was Welshpool, and called the airfield to say I had five miles to run. When I couldn't find the airfield I realised I must have misidentified the town, and decided it was Newtown, so started heading North to get to Welshpool. It was actually Oswestry...and don't ask how I could have confused the two - I was confused, period! And tired, and a bit worried. Anyway, I flew North, and Welshpool never showed up. Meanwhile I got out of Welshpool airfield's range, and they got VERY worried. When I got to Wrexham I realised something had gone wrong, started to orbit, calmed down, and suddenly worked it all out correctly. I then started to fly back south to Oswestry and Welshpool. Just south of Oswestry, Welshpool A/G managed to contact me, to their great relief, and told me to contact Shawbury to find out where I was. I told them I knew where I was now. They insisted I contact Shawbury. So I did, and they told me I was 8 miles North of Welshpool, which I knew anyway. Well, I landed, and my instructor was furious. How, he asked, had I managed to get lost on a 16 minute leg, on a route I'd flown before. I told him to sit down and I'd tell him. I did, and he nodded, and told my to book my NFT (Navigation Flight Test, forerunner of the nav part of the Skills Test). I looked at him in amazement, and asked if he didn't want me to repeat the flight. He said no, I'd got lost, but I knew why, and I'd learned from it, so there was no point and no need.

So you see, whatever instructors do, students can and do get lost. :(

[dublinpilot]

Whirly,

I don't think the point was that an instructor could prevent a student from getting lost. It was more that an instructor would have ensurred the student would have done the planning properly, and have a plog showing the features/town they were going to use, and have their route marked on the map. It appears from the first post on this thread, that this pilot had none of that done.

dp

[MLS-12D]

I realised I must have misidentified the town, and decided it was Newtown, so started heading North to get to Welshpool. It was actually Oswestry...and don't ask how I could have confused the twoThe dreaded idée fixe is always waiting to trap the unwary. :eek: Been there, done that ... it's hard to guard against.

[M14P]

MLS, old chap:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7, Also Luke 6)

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (John 8 is the sermon on the mount)

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things" from Romans

All very sound advice for those who wish to tread the 'but for the grace of God' middle ground. However, it's actually my job as an instructor/checker to 'judge' and thence to help cure and improve (I hope not without humility). But I take your point. In fact, I think you'll find that the 'spirit' of the passage from Romans is in line with my original sentiment: We are all similar, fallible and frail. Perhaps we can draw the Chaplain into this!

Anyway, my original point was that I found hearing it 'for real' fascinating and I was wondering if any of you had any more info. So far the response has been great.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

IO540I know one cannot get full Radar Info unless the controller sees both primary and secondary returns, but for location purposes a transponder should be as good, down to a similar height AGL. And D&D get access to far more radars than a PPL. One problem with relying on SSR (beyond 2008) could be that D & D operate a H24 service, whereas most of the UK military units close for the weekend. I don't know if the RADAR itself continues to provide a feed and it is just the controllers who go home ?

TG.

[QNH 1013]

A slightly different experience and what I learnt...

About six years ago I was flying IFR from the west country back to Birmingham and getting a radar service from Brize. Wx was rubbish and I had delayed the departure until the Birmingham actuals went sufficiently above minimums to have a high probability of not having to divert.

Everything was wonderful above the clouds until Brize asked me to contact D&D on 121.5. This filled me with horror and I wondered what terrible catastrophe they expected and I wondered why I didn't know I was in trouble. Anyway, it all became clear as soon as I called them and they wanted help in communicating with a lost aircraft somewhere near the Welsh border; they could barely hear him and he seemed to be having difficulty in hearing them.

I remember communication being difficult and I explained that I had over five hours of fuel on board, was there anything else I could do to help?

To cut a long story short, they radar vectored me down to VMC, and radar vectored me right up to the lost aircraft, eventually saying something like "aircraft is now 1 mile ahead of you and 500 feet below" and sure enough there it was. I relayed the direction messages until I was able to report that I had seen the lost aircraft land safely (on a farm strip). By this time transmissions from the aircraft had faded to completely inaudible.

What I want to share are the mistakes I made during this, because they are all easy to spot with hindsight but weren't obvious to me at the time; otherwise I wouldn't have made them!

First mistake was that I was slow to react to the fact that I was proabably 60 knots faster than the other aircraft and I was slow to realise that even with the gear and flaps down I couldn't easily match the speed. To avoid overtaking the other aircraft, I decided to do one orbit which was a big mistake. I nearly lost sight of it doing this. I should have zig- zagged keeping it in view all the time, which I then did.

Second mistake was not writing down every instruction to be relayed before relaying it. At first I just repeated the headings but I got one wrong and had to be corrected by D&D, and worse, may have added to the workload of the lost pilot - and I think he had other difficulties as well. I then did what I should have done to start with and wrote everything down before relaying it. This was lesson number two.

The weather was going downhill quickly now and moments after seeing the aircraft land safely I was back in IMC and climbing at Vx. By now, Birmingham ATIS was down to broken cloud at 300'
and I was hoping to get back there before it got any worse, meaning a diversion. D&D handed me over to Birmingham radar who were superb and Birmingham had held at least two large aircraft at the 15 hold so I could land asap. They were perhaps wondering if I was going to get in without Cat 2 or 3. The approach lights were very welcome that afternoon.

Final point is that D&D do not talk unless absolutely necessary, so during all this there were very long periods of silence. If you call 121.5 make your first transmission brief, even if the frequency is quiet; there still could be an emergency in progress.

[Warped Factor]

In certain areas it's probably fair to say that the radar coverage will be better than that of the VDF.

But the big advantage of the VDF sevice is the ability to zoom in on the digitised maps and give fairly precise info. With the radar the best you'll get is "your position is 4nm north west of XYZ VOR" or similar.

Not bad, but not as good.

WF.

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

An interesting account, QNH1013. I have sometimes wondered how well I would cope in a similar relay situation. I think I would have made the same mistakes (alhough it seems a bit harsh to call them that) as you, plus a few more!

It must have been very satisfying to see the other pilot land safely.

TG

[M609]

Do the RAF's 7/8-figure-priced planes really get lost?

Sure! Have seen a RAF FJ crossing into a diffrent non-NATO country! (Ok, it was close to the training area :E )

[Mr Wolfie]

Great thread - lots of food for thought - and ultimately very reassuring.

I have only used the service once, for a practice pan and training fix over mid Wales whilst I was doing my training. They were able to accurately pinpoint me as being 2 NM north of Builth Wells - which was spot on.

Professional and polite. The contoller even thanked me for making the call!

Mr. W

[bcfc]

The only time I have attempted a Practice Pan, D&D were barely audible at 3000ft over Dartmoor. It was only at 3,500 - 4000ft before they became clear enough to understand.

While not always on, my GPS is always in my bag along with a fresh set of double-A's.

[englishal]

The moral to this story is:

1) always carry plenty of fuel. The UK is small, and most small aircraft can easily travel half its length on full tanks. You're sure to find an airfield somewhere in there :D

2) Carry a GPS, even if you only use it for emergency position fixes, which are quite possible with no moving map. Just plot the lat and long on a chart, easy.

3) At least do a bit of pre-flight planning. Work out rough headings and times if you're unfamiliar with your surroundings.

4) Get a bit of instrument experience behind you. You can then take advantage of all the nav aids dotted around the country to position fix, in the unlikely event that GPS goes tits.

5) Fly near the coast :D If I get lost, I head south and look for the sea, then its pretty easy to find my way home :D

6) Consider picking up a RIS if you're travelling from A to B. They are normally pretty good at "extra" information (for example "for your info, there is gliding going on at ABCD"). This also gives hints to your position.

I can sympathise with this pilot, reaching 130% workload is not fun, you tend to forget all that you have learned and stress levels rise dramatically. Maybe if we had some sort of "flight following" these stress levels could be reduced dramatically, for example the fear of busting airspace drops, you are already talking to someone, so its not such a big deal to ask your position (no matter how stupid you feel).........

Cheers
EA

[boomerangben]

I always taught and demonstrated practice pans on 121.5 to my students (I also insisted that they declared themselves as "LOST" not "temporarily uncertain of position" what a mouthful and frankly a load of b****x). Shortly after going over the procedure with a colleague's student, I had the pleasure of hearing that student using it for real on a solo nav. As you'd expect D&D handled it with utmost professionalism and I listened in while teaching practice autorotations to my student. Also listening in was the local police unit who I could see hovering nearby and offered his assistance. Eventually the lost pilot reported visual with the destination. At this point the police unit piped up, reporting that he thought he was visual with the lost aircraft, and that he couldn't be visual - the airfield was behind him. D&D asked the lost pilot to confirm he was visual with the airfield, which he did and requested change to XXXX. I could not resist telling the police pilot (on 121.5) that I believed he was looking at me. I did however restrain from asking why he thought that a lost pilot would be doing practice autorotations.

[G SXTY]

A great thread, and proof - it was needed - of just how valuable D&D can be.

I’ve also had the benefit of visiting them, and was truly impressed at the level of service they can provide. I can only reiterate what others have said – they really do want you to call before you have a real problem, or even just for the practise (for them as well as you). I’ve called them several times, and they are unfailingly helpful and professional.

And on the subject of overload, I’ve also managed to get slightly lost, misidentifying South Woodham for Wickford on a day when I went off in marginal VMC (P/UT thankfully) to look for trouble. Although I quickly realised and corrected the error, I was amazed how quickly the workload built up while I tried to work out where I’d gone wrong (even to the point of telling the instructor to shut up and stand by while I sorted it out!). :)

Single pilot, low hours, especially in iffy wx, it’s extremely reassuring to know how much help is available at the press of a button.

[FWA NATCA]

This is always a good subject to discuss at pilot meetings, I'm LOST, Now What Do I DO?

There is VOR orientation, Radar Identification, Land Mark Recognition, DF (where it is still available). The important thing is to recognize the problem before it becomes an emergency.

As a pilot once told me, I have GPS, RNAV, VOR, and 2 radios, and I thought that I would never have a problem with becoming lost. Well one day all that fancy equipment deceided to quit working, and somehow I became lost, thanks to ATC everything worked out fine.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[M14P]

On the subject of overload...

Human factors in the world of light aviation is generally glossed over as a bit of a nuisance (pass the exam and move on, old chap) but it's really quite important (!) - it forms a huge part of what we study at work. Each person behaves rather differently under pressure (some thrive, some shut down etc etc)

I've been developing a concept of useful light aviation 'CRM' - for want of a better phrase - and iI feel that some of you here on Pprune might be able to help.

Using a light aircraft simulator I would like to get some volunteers together to fly an unseen scenario. I would make it non-technical (no engine failures etc so you needn't be multi rated - just proficent at instrument flying) but the 'student' would need to plan the 'flight'. Ideally I would need a controller too (for added realism). Each student would be fully briefed; would need to agree to be videoed; have heart rate monitored, too. I would love it to be full VFR but I don't know of a simulator that's good enough.

The plan would be to put a video together that really speaks to the light aviation community and maybe even make a presentation roadshow.

Sim time would cost a little but I would be prepared to pay for it so long as we get a few donations to charity.

Anyone interested????

[Ludwig]

That sounds very interesting, provided it is done with a defined purposes with properly skilled experimenter to set useful "tests" and get results that would be of value, rather than just messing in a sim. I'd be up for that.

:ok:

[M14P]

Of course it would be structured! Messing around in a sim, indeed...

[flyingwelshman]

Hi,

Sounds liek a great idea.

I understand money is tight, but would there not be an argument to do a number of varibles too.

maybe:

a) Someone with a lapsed lincence, revalidates on a couple of hours and then off they go.

b) A regular couple of hours week bod

c) A regular couple of hours a month bod

d) Somone who only flies the minimum requirments.

I know there are a near infinate number of variables, but this would over come a number of "but if"s.

I would be intrested in taking part.

FW

[FWA NATCA]

M14P,

For SIM time, try talking to any of the local universities that have aviation programs, I would be surprised if they wouldn't be willing to provide FREE SIM time. If this isn't an option try contacting some of the airlines, this would generate good press for them.

Mike

[M14P]

Thanks Mike

I will try a few Universities (my wife was a Psych Grad at the Uni up the road so that might help) but I'm not sure that any Unis here have access to the light AC sims that I seek.

I already have access to a number of sims through my employer but all of them are heavy jets. Not really in my target market but I am exploring possibilities...

Any more takers? IMC/IR rated pilots will be first to be considered.

[RodgerF]

quote:
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Do the RAF's 7/8-figure-priced planes really get lost?
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D&D don't just deal with aircraft being lost. When I was visiting D&D there was a real emergency whilst we were there. A Tornado in the York AIAA had taken a birdstrike and the pilot was concerned whether damage had been sustained. A Hawk in the vicinity was vectored to the Tornado to visually inspect it. The Tornado pilot elected to recover to Leeming since it was closest and the D&D provided navigational assistance and coordinated with the Leeming Approach controller for priority and crash support. The aircraft landed safely with no landing damage.