121.5 - Where Am I...
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121.5 - Where Am I...
Last Sunday I was eavsdropping on 121.5 and I heard a developing scenario that I believe would be useful and interesting to most Ppruners:
I came on frequency maybe a few transmissions after the start but the general thrust was apparent throughout. (I wrote notes for future reference!). A light aircraft was clearly lost and was receiving a service from the D&D cell to rectify the situation. It became clear that the pilot had not prepared for navigation very well (most obvious was that he was on 121.5 but many other comments made it clear that this was not a well planned flight). The Controller established a few basic parameters initially - her demeanour was very reassuring and professional (we really do have the best controllers in the world - they even sound good). She started with simple questions; from my vantage point it was very clear that maximum effort was being made to ensure a low additional workload for the pilot. A basic position plot - expressed as a compass point from a major town - was the first piece of information. Response from the pilot was still rather confused and monosyllabic he appeared to be trying to downplay the severity of his predicament.
She immediately picked up on the subtle nuances in his voice and quickly swung into a more in-depth phase of assistance: She asked the pilot to "...transmit for DF...". The pilot responded with only a short burst of transmission - first learning point: Transmit for DF is standard (but rarely used) phraseology that you might have forgotten from your RT exam but it has a very specific response (for longer transmission time). Can you remember it?
The controller asked for a longer transmission and suggested counting to five and back again (I believe she used this task to gauge further capacity of the pilot too but he didn't manage too well - amazing how even simple tasks become full of errors when 'loaded up'). She then gave a much more accurate position and quizzed the pilot on some more details. Was he on a NAVEX? Final destination? Last known position? Surprisingly the pilot was unable to provide a last known position AT ALL. Again I would surmise that this was due to an ever deepening desire to be on the ground, in the bar with a pint.
Gently the controller teased out a few more details (I suspect that causing a loss of aircaft control was a real concern thus her transmissions remained perfectly measured for the situation). She asked if the pilot could see a very large prominent road she was aware of a rough heading thanks to the longer DF trace. I was incredibly surprised at the amount of topographic detail the controller was able to provide. Not only that but it was provided in an incredibly relevant manner - a logical sequence Large road>>direction>>service station. The impression given was one of the controller sitting right next to the pilot pointing out features. I was very impressed.
Once the controller had positively identified the position of the aircraft she started to ask what the pilot had marked up on his map (answer: nothing). She asked what major features he might know (answer: none). To be honest a less charitable person (i.e. Me) might have just mentioned that they deserved to get lost with that sort of flight planning. Again I was amazed by the amount of detail fed back to the pilot including track monitoring and morsels such as 'you will see a big country house with a large garden' (remember, none of this is using radar - only DF).
In the end she put the pilot in a position where his confidence seemed to return a little and (more importantly) he could identify the airfield. Having been furnished with the frequency he was sent on his way (it appeared that the destination had been informed by D&D). He left without any thanks but I like to think that he dropped D&D a line to thank them for a stunning job.
A few things jumped out at me:
1. The controller had a 'feel' for navigating a light aircraft and could empathise with the pilot;
2. The controller was very attuned to the possible ramifications of overloading the pilot;
3. The service extended well beyond just talking on the radio;
4. The data available to the controller was excellent;
5. A nice long DF transmission makes the job much easier for the controller;
6. I could well have missed it but I didn't hear the controller ask about endurance;
7. It's a thankless task being on the D&D cell (or it seemed it).
Fair play to the pilot - at least he had the good sense to ask for help.
I'd love to hear other pilots' experiences and maybe some feedback from controllers. Also I'd like to thank the controller and watch staff that day for a job well done (just in case the pilot never called!)
I came on frequency maybe a few transmissions after the start but the general thrust was apparent throughout. (I wrote notes for future reference!). A light aircraft was clearly lost and was receiving a service from the D&D cell to rectify the situation. It became clear that the pilot had not prepared for navigation very well (most obvious was that he was on 121.5 but many other comments made it clear that this was not a well planned flight). The Controller established a few basic parameters initially - her demeanour was very reassuring and professional (we really do have the best controllers in the world - they even sound good). She started with simple questions; from my vantage point it was very clear that maximum effort was being made to ensure a low additional workload for the pilot. A basic position plot - expressed as a compass point from a major town - was the first piece of information. Response from the pilot was still rather confused and monosyllabic he appeared to be trying to downplay the severity of his predicament.
She immediately picked up on the subtle nuances in his voice and quickly swung into a more in-depth phase of assistance: She asked the pilot to "...transmit for DF...". The pilot responded with only a short burst of transmission - first learning point: Transmit for DF is standard (but rarely used) phraseology that you might have forgotten from your RT exam but it has a very specific response (for longer transmission time). Can you remember it?
The controller asked for a longer transmission and suggested counting to five and back again (I believe she used this task to gauge further capacity of the pilot too but he didn't manage too well - amazing how even simple tasks become full of errors when 'loaded up'). She then gave a much more accurate position and quizzed the pilot on some more details. Was he on a NAVEX? Final destination? Last known position? Surprisingly the pilot was unable to provide a last known position AT ALL. Again I would surmise that this was due to an ever deepening desire to be on the ground, in the bar with a pint.
Gently the controller teased out a few more details (I suspect that causing a loss of aircaft control was a real concern thus her transmissions remained perfectly measured for the situation). She asked if the pilot could see a very large prominent road she was aware of a rough heading thanks to the longer DF trace. I was incredibly surprised at the amount of topographic detail the controller was able to provide. Not only that but it was provided in an incredibly relevant manner - a logical sequence Large road>>direction>>service station. The impression given was one of the controller sitting right next to the pilot pointing out features. I was very impressed.
Once the controller had positively identified the position of the aircraft she started to ask what the pilot had marked up on his map (answer: nothing). She asked what major features he might know (answer: none). To be honest a less charitable person (i.e. Me) might have just mentioned that they deserved to get lost with that sort of flight planning. Again I was amazed by the amount of detail fed back to the pilot including track monitoring and morsels such as 'you will see a big country house with a large garden' (remember, none of this is using radar - only DF).
In the end she put the pilot in a position where his confidence seemed to return a little and (more importantly) he could identify the airfield. Having been furnished with the frequency he was sent on his way (it appeared that the destination had been informed by D&D). He left without any thanks but I like to think that he dropped D&D a line to thank them for a stunning job.
A few things jumped out at me:
1. The controller had a 'feel' for navigating a light aircraft and could empathise with the pilot;
2. The controller was very attuned to the possible ramifications of overloading the pilot;
3. The service extended well beyond just talking on the radio;
4. The data available to the controller was excellent;
5. A nice long DF transmission makes the job much easier for the controller;
6. I could well have missed it but I didn't hear the controller ask about endurance;
7. It's a thankless task being on the D&D cell (or it seemed it).
Fair play to the pilot - at least he had the good sense to ask for help.
I'd love to hear other pilots' experiences and maybe some feedback from controllers. Also I'd like to thank the controller and watch staff that day for a job well done (just in case the pilot never called!)
Many moons ago, I was trundling up from Southampton to Beccles and I thought I'd try a practice PAN call. I wasn't lost (I could see Sarf End clearly from where I was) I recalled a recommendation in Pilot that D&D enjoyed the practice if they weren't actually involved in a real PAN or MAYDAY.
I can only echo M14P 's comments, massively professional and would have been very reassuring in the event of a real PAN. Try it someday, it's worth the practice. Don't forget to listen out first just in case there is a real emergency transpiring though.
Slightly skewing the thread: apparently, alledgedly, maybe, once upon a time, the governer of a nameless prison on the Isle of Wight called up D&D to do something about the light aircraft that was (quite legally) flying around his prison. They had to inform him that shooting down the Cessna wasn't their line of buisiness. He had assumed that D&D meant Detect & Destroy!
I can only echo M14P 's comments, massively professional and would have been very reassuring in the event of a real PAN. Try it someday, it's worth the practice. Don't forget to listen out first just in case there is a real emergency transpiring though.
Slightly skewing the thread: apparently, alledgedly, maybe, once upon a time, the governer of a nameless prison on the Isle of Wight called up D&D to do something about the light aircraft that was (quite legally) flying around his prison. They had to inform him that shooting down the Cessna wasn't their line of buisiness. He had assumed that D&D meant Detect & Destroy!
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I've never had to use 121.5 in anger fortunately, however I did once call them up for a training fix to see what the service was like. I was most impressed, my initial call was immediately answered and I was given my position, details of landmarks beneath me and the position of the nearest airfield relative to my current heading (i.e. "Airfield in your right 3 o'clock, 5 miles"). It was very reassuring to know that should I ever get lost a quick radio call could soon rectify the problem.
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When doing my PPL my instructor took me up in some really poor weather to practice lost procedures and we tuned in to to 121.5 to do a practice pan, but they were already dealing with someone who'd used the poor weather to get genuinely lost. He was obviously in much worse weather and had been forced down to about 500 ft, at which point D&D couldn't find him. They were trying to establish where he might be by quizzing him about headings and times since he left the airfield. An airline pilot even joined in the conversation to try and help him out! In the end he made a forced landing in a field, but ran into the barbed wire fence at the end.
If my instructor was trying to teach me to never go flying in weather like that without an IMC rating, he succeeded!
If my instructor was trying to teach me to never go flying in weather like that without an IMC rating, he succeeded!
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Not a service I have used since I first learnt to fly with the UAS, and that was only a training demo from the FI. It may well be something to consider familiarising myself with next time I'm up, as I tend to fly all over the country and it would be interesting to see how easy it would be to use the service at fairly low level.
As for being lost, it can happen to all of us early on in our flying. I used to be lost within about 10 mins of take off every time the UAS sent me solo. I'm sure the ATCO's in Leeming Approach used to run a sweepstake on how long it would be until I called for a steer every time I went up.
In my defence, at that point in my training, the RAF hadn't taught me Nav and there aren't a geat deal too many visual landmarks over the Pennines.
Assuming that this exchange wasn't actually a training excercise (having missed the initial calls nobody can be sure), if the pilot in question has a reasonable chunk of experience under his/her belt, then I hope they feel suitably embarassed to go and do some serious nav revision and prepare more thoroughly for their next trip.
As for being lost, it can happen to all of us early on in our flying. I used to be lost within about 10 mins of take off every time the UAS sent me solo. I'm sure the ATCO's in Leeming Approach used to run a sweepstake on how long it would be until I called for a steer every time I went up.
In my defence, at that point in my training, the RAF hadn't taught me Nav and there aren't a geat deal too many visual landmarks over the Pennines.Assuming that this exchange wasn't actually a training excercise (having missed the initial calls nobody can be sure), if the pilot in question has a reasonable chunk of experience under his/her belt, then I hope they feel suitably embarassed to go and do some serious nav revision and prepare more thoroughly for their next trip.
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Also, on a solo nax ex, I couldn't find my home airfield - hadn't been sharp enough of my times and had probably flown right over it. I new that I was very close to the Luton zone, so orbited and got straight onto Luton for a QDM instead of 121.5 (in case I had already busted their zone). They were very helpful and stopped talking to everyone else gave me the QDM, corrected it for wind after about 1 minute and made sure I got back (I hadn't busted the zone). And I did thank them before I changed frequency
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I'm as sure as can be that it was not a practise. If it was then it was exceedinly realistic and swamped 121.5 for 25 mins (to the detriment of any real emergencies!)
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Firstly, don't be too hard on this guy without knowing the details. Sounds like he was inexperienced, certainly. But he may have just gone for a local jolly, so not bothered to draw a line on his chart; then the vis got worse... He may have been intending to follow a line feature, but lost it. He may have gone out to practise nav without any lines on his map, in preparation for a diversion - I've done that, it's quite useful practice. But whatever the scenario, being lost, overloaded, and scared can get your brain to the point that you hardly know your own name, never mind where you are - and carrying on a sensible conversation becomes very hard.
My experience of using D & D in earnest was a few weeks after I got my PPL(A). I flew from Welshpool to Oxford, met a friend for lunch, and started to fly back. Because I thought the cloudbase had lowered, I planned to head North to the Telford area, then West. The vis got worse, I got lost, I blundered around for maybe half an hour as I was scared to tell anyone, then told London Info I was lost. They told me to call D & D, who within 30 seconds told me: "You're three miles south of Birmingham Airport. Can you call them on ...." My initial reaction was; "Oh no, I can't call Birmingham; they'll kill me!" But they didn't of course. A very calm, kind ATCO directed me via the motorway system back to the M54 in the direction of Telford. He gently tried to persuade me to land at Halfpenny Green (now Wolverhampton) when he realised the vis was close to VFR limits, but didn't push it when I refused (stupidly, with hindsight!). When I thanked him profusely for his help, saying I was very new to flying and really not up to coping with all that had happened, he asked if I wanted to stay with him as long as I could, saying it was quite OK if I didn't feel up to talking to someone new yet. So understanding, and so very very kind! In fact I was OK by then, and I went back to London Info, who recognised either my voice or the callsign, and gently teased me about the whole thing.
That whole episode was a great learning experience for me. It also stopped me being scared of talking on the radio. And yes, D & D are wonderful. And so are many other ATCOs, in situations where we really need them. They may not like you being in their airspace unannounced. But if you are, they'd rather you talked to someone so that they can get you safely back on your way home and/or on the ground
(If anyone is interested, this account was published in more detail as a ILAFFT - "Lost Over Birmingham" - in Pilot, Jan 2001)
My experience of using D & D in earnest was a few weeks after I got my PPL(A). I flew from Welshpool to Oxford, met a friend for lunch, and started to fly back. Because I thought the cloudbase had lowered, I planned to head North to the Telford area, then West. The vis got worse, I got lost, I blundered around for maybe half an hour as I was scared to tell anyone, then told London Info I was lost. They told me to call D & D, who within 30 seconds told me: "You're three miles south of Birmingham Airport. Can you call them on ...." My initial reaction was; "Oh no, I can't call Birmingham; they'll kill me!" But they didn't of course. A very calm, kind ATCO directed me via the motorway system back to the M54 in the direction of Telford. He gently tried to persuade me to land at Halfpenny Green (now Wolverhampton) when he realised the vis was close to VFR limits, but didn't push it when I refused (stupidly, with hindsight!). When I thanked him profusely for his help, saying I was very new to flying and really not up to coping with all that had happened, he asked if I wanted to stay with him as long as I could, saying it was quite OK if I didn't feel up to talking to someone new yet. So understanding, and so very very kind! In fact I was OK by then, and I went back to London Info, who recognised either my voice or the callsign, and gently teased me about the whole thing.
That whole episode was a great learning experience for me. It also stopped me being scared of talking on the radio. And yes, D & D are wonderful. And so are many other ATCOs, in situations where we really need them. They may not like you being in their airspace unannounced. But if you are, they'd rather you talked to someone so that they can get you safely back on your way home and/or on the ground
(If anyone is interested, this account was published in more detail as a ILAFFT - "Lost Over Birmingham" - in Pilot, Jan 2001)
Why do it if it's not fun?
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M14P,
Thanks for the comprehensive report. I think I will print that off and file it away for future reference: reference of how disoriented it's possible to become when the chips are really down, and reference of how helpful D&D can be.
Have never had to use either D&D or any other ATC service when I've been truely lost, but I have asked for help on occassion, and I have to re-iterate what others have said: we have the best ATC in the world, IMHO, so use them! My most memorable experience to date was when they helped me locate an invisible farm-strip. I'd spent the best part of 15 minute circling overhead the area where I believed the strip to be, but couldn't see it, so I contacted a nearby radar facility. They gave me headings and distances, dug out their own copy of, I presume, Lockyears and passed me information about the strip, and generally reassured me.
I did eventually find the strip. I had become so fixed on a runway-like bit of concrete that wasn't quite the right orientation that I completely failed to notice the narrow, straight bit of unmarked road, just 100 yards away, that was the strip I was looking for. I'd been in the right place all along, and the information they gave me about the strip I already knew from my own copy of Lockyears, so there was really no practical help they could offer me, but even so it was great to have a reassuring voice on the other end of the r/t doing his best to help me, and no doubt stopped me from becoming disoriented in the that this guy seems to have been when M14P overheard him.
Glad that, in the case M14P overheard, it seems that everything turned out ok.
FFF
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Thanks for the comprehensive report. I think I will print that off and file it away for future reference: reference of how disoriented it's possible to become when the chips are really down, and reference of how helpful D&D can be.
Have never had to use either D&D or any other ATC service when I've been truely lost, but I have asked for help on occassion, and I have to re-iterate what others have said: we have the best ATC in the world, IMHO, so use them! My most memorable experience to date was when they helped me locate an invisible farm-strip. I'd spent the best part of 15 minute circling overhead the area where I believed the strip to be, but couldn't see it, so I contacted a nearby radar facility. They gave me headings and distances, dug out their own copy of, I presume, Lockyears and passed me information about the strip, and generally reassured me.
I did eventually find the strip. I had become so fixed on a runway-like bit of concrete that wasn't quite the right orientation that I completely failed to notice the narrow, straight bit of unmarked road, just 100 yards away, that was the strip I was looking for. I'd been in the right place all along, and the information they gave me about the strip I already knew from my own copy of Lockyears, so there was really no practical help they could offer me, but even so it was great to have a reassuring voice on the other end of the r/t doing his best to help me, and no doubt stopped me from becoming disoriented in the that this guy seems to have been when M14P overheard him.
Glad that, in the case M14P overheard, it seems that everything turned out ok.
FFF
---------------
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I'm trying not to be hard on the chap whirlly...
More interesting was the psychological aspects:
When the controller asked what he would recognise he said 'Nowhere' - surely that's not true. More likely it was an indicator of ever deepening desperation. What I was hearing was a man succumbing to (however small) the onset of a panic reaction (Hyperthalamus taking over, narrowing of multitasking abilities etc). We can all learn from that...
Imagine the situation - mates/family on board started off like a nice little jolly, dawning realisation that you really don't know where you are. That feature over there might be useful. You start weaving about and, Hey Presto! Lost. Family sensing your uncertainty. Mood on board is changing... Sounds like you know what I'm talking about, Whirly. It's amazing how quickly it can go from a nice day out to not very much fun at all. I found it fabulous that the controller picked up on all of that in the pilot's voice. She offloaded nearly all of the workload save for actually flying the aircraft - presumably that's Rule Number One at D&D.
We can all learn from something like that, I hope. Maybe this post will make a few people read CAP371 and possibly practise a bit of 'finding yourself' (why don't you try to fly an unplanned diversion, for example).
cheers all
More interesting was the psychological aspects:
When the controller asked what he would recognise he said 'Nowhere' - surely that's not true. More likely it was an indicator of ever deepening desperation. What I was hearing was a man succumbing to (however small) the onset of a panic reaction (Hyperthalamus taking over, narrowing of multitasking abilities etc). We can all learn from that...
Imagine the situation - mates/family on board started off like a nice little jolly, dawning realisation that you really don't know where you are. That feature over there might be useful. You start weaving about and, Hey Presto! Lost. Family sensing your uncertainty. Mood on board is changing... Sounds like you know what I'm talking about, Whirly. It's amazing how quickly it can go from a nice day out to not very much fun at all. I found it fabulous that the controller picked up on all of that in the pilot's voice. She offloaded nearly all of the workload save for actually flying the aircraft - presumably that's Rule Number One at D&D.
We can all learn from something like that, I hope. Maybe this post will make a few people read CAP371 and possibly practise a bit of 'finding yourself' (why don't you try to fly an unplanned diversion, for example).
cheers all
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If GPS usage was properly incorporated into the PPL syllabus, and into all applicable aircraft, these completely avoidable situations would rarely if ever occur.
If every flying school had a PC with internet access and made it a habit that every departing pilot gets the full set of weather reports before walking out of the door, it would happen even less.
D&D go a super job, but I was amazed at their anti-GPS attitude at a recent MCASD presentation.
If every flying school had a PC with internet access and made it a habit that every departing pilot gets the full set of weather reports before walking out of the door, it would happen even less.
D&D go a super job, but I was amazed at their anti-GPS attitude at a recent MCASD presentation.
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Interesting thread. Having never used the service I don’t really have much to add (I really ought to contact them one day for a practice fix).
However with respect to the appropriate phraseology for a DF transmission I am sure that I heard somewhere that just transmitting carrier wave for a handful of seconds is better than saying anything as the carrier alone gives a better trace than a voice transmission (although it should be prefaced by “G ROTE transmitting for DF” or similar).
Can anyone confirm if this is true or not?
However with respect to the appropriate phraseology for a DF transmission I am sure that I heard somewhere that just transmitting carrier wave for a handful of seconds is better than saying anything as the carrier alone gives a better trace than a voice transmission (although it should be prefaced by “G ROTE transmitting for DF” or similar).
Can anyone confirm if this is true or not?
While I obviously don't know the details of location and can't guarantee that this took place in SSR cover, doesn't this support the idea that all student solo should be carried out in aircraft equipped with a Mode A/C transponder?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Bookworm,
Who said anything about solo students? If anything, I would guess that this is unlikely to have been a solo student.... I would like to think any instructor would ensure that his students are sufficiently well prepared before a solo flight for such a situation to be very unlikely to arise?
FFF
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Who said anything about solo students? If anything, I would guess that this is unlikely to have been a solo student.... I would like to think any instructor would ensure that his students are sufficiently well prepared before a solo flight for such a situation to be very unlikely to arise?
FFF
--------------
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I was lucky enough to visit the D & D cell at LATCC earlier this year (a combined PPRuNe / Flyer Forum visit). It was fascinating to see the resources available to them - a real mix of hi-tech and lo-tech. The DF works with a PC based mapping system that goes to the detail of OS maps and even the London A to Z. They can literally ask questions like "can you see a church with a spire in your 10 O'clock?".
The controllers are specially trained in the psychological aspects of the job like teasing information out of embarrassed and / or panicking pilots.
The controllers are VERY happy to support practice pans and "temporarily unsure of position" fixes. Just remember to listen out on frequency first to ensure there is not a real emergency in progress.
TG152
The controllers are specially trained in the psychological aspects of the job like teasing information out of embarrassed and / or panicking pilots.
The controllers are VERY happy to support practice pans and "temporarily unsure of position" fixes. Just remember to listen out on frequency first to ensure there is not a real emergency in progress.
TG152
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M14P what a great post.
I followed a D&D emergency once. We were an a general training flight somewhere in the south of england when an A/C came on frequency saying he was lost. He knew where he was going from and to but did not know where he was. The field told him to contact D&D, we followed. The ac was just a couple of miles offtrack. D&D were superb and talked him onto base leg at the destination then said call XXXX for landing. Just as the pilot thought he was home and dry the field came on and said words to the effect of 'Who told you to enter my circuit pattern go around we have conflicting traffic'.That must have sent the poor guy into a right state. I presume D&D called the field and mentioned the situation to the field so I don't know what was going through
Anyway I think D&D are brill and if you haven't given them a Practice Pan to find out how good they are do it before you need to do it. Any instructor will brief you if you are unsure of what to say. My instructor got a letter from them for making the most Practice Pans in the country one year. D&D seemed to view it as a good thing.
I followed a D&D emergency once. We were an a general training flight somewhere in the south of england when an A/C came on frequency saying he was lost. He knew where he was going from and to but did not know where he was. The field told him to contact D&D, we followed. The ac was just a couple of miles offtrack. D&D were superb and talked him onto base leg at the destination then said call XXXX for landing. Just as the pilot thought he was home and dry the field came on and said words to the effect of 'Who told you to enter my circuit pattern go around we have conflicting traffic'.That must have sent the poor guy into a right state. I presume D&D called the field and mentioned the situation to the field so I don't know what was going through
Anyway I think D&D are brill and if you haven't given them a Practice Pan to find out how good they are do it before you need to do it. Any instructor will brief you if you are unsure of what to say. My instructor got a letter from them for making the most Practice Pans in the country one year. D&D seemed to view it as a good thing.
Who said anything about solo students? If anything, I would guess that this is unlikely to have been a solo student.... I would like to think any instructor would ensure that his students are sufficiently well prepared before a solo flight for such a situation to be very unlikely to arise?
I presumed that the view that all aircraft should be equipped with a Mode A/C transponder would be even less popular...
