View Full Version : Dubai

5th Mar 2004, 04:39
2 days ago an alitalia departed dubai for itali .
20 minutes in to the flight the requested to come back because one of the passenger was having a heart attack and the crew requested rwy 12R to be closer to the terminal to disembark the pax. stange enought the controler told them to use 12 L because 12R was used for TO. the captain of alitalia was so pissed off that he had to declare an emergency to use rwy 12R and save the life of this passenger. eventualy he did land 12R because of the emergency he declare. now can anybody explain what kind of improfetionel people the controlers in dubai are??

see u all :cool:

5th Mar 2004, 19:51
I can tell you that it's chaotic at Dubai at the moment because of the knock effects of fog . . . my wife sat at the airport for 12 hours waiting for news of her flight and has now been sitting on the aircraft waiting for departure for over an hour.

5th Mar 2004, 22:00
I remember a conversation last year about the standard of DXB ATC understanding of emergency and unusual requests from flight crews. My colleague had a similar problem getting the ATCo and the tower to understand that his Captain had become seriously ill inflight and that he was in fact now single crewing a B767. He requested that a tow-tractor to meet the aircraft on the runway as he could not turn the aircraft off the runway. He was then told to take up a hold as he was not in their traffic pattern, retorting rather curtly he said over the VHF that his captain is lying on the flight deck floor vomiting violently and needed to get to hospital as quickly as possible. So an expeditious approach was set up and the aircraft handed over to the tower. He informed the tower of his single crew status and asked if the tow-tractor was ready. 'why' was asked by the tower, you take turn off and taxi to terminal. Flabbergasted at this my colleague declared a pan, stated that he would be stopping on the runway and will await what ever assistance the tower would like to send him. Then it all went quiet for a few seconds, the tower said tow-tractor and ambulance will be here waiting. Stopping on the runway, shutting down and informing ATC all ok, the now exhausted SFO, patiently awaited the arrival of the tow-tractor (20mins) and the ambulance (25mins).
Now there is a good ending to this, the captain made a good recovery a few days (and pounds) later. But there is a worrying point to raise, at what point did the ATCo not understand the meaning of single crewing a large heavy aircraft, and why did he not seek supervisory assistance. The Atco in question had complained afterwards that the cleaners were hoovering the room at the time and was having difficulty understanding the requests. !!!!

5th Mar 2004, 22:26
I've done a lot of flying in the Middle East and generally local ATC contollers do not understand "requests" nor do most of them understand "Pan". "Mayday" ALWAYS gets their attention and "I am declaring an emergency" normally works.

I'm interested (not critisizing) in why the FO wanted to shut down on the runway, can the 767 only be taxied from the left hand seat?

6th Mar 2004, 00:12
oh-oh - you answered your own question.

It does however depend upon the config on manufacture. The 757 I fly does not have a tiller on the RHS, but I have been on a BA one that does.

6th Mar 2004, 01:47
What is it about Dubai that can make one violently sick all of a sudden? I became violently sick within 2 hours after eating lunch. Spent 3 days there recovering, then had gall bladder surgery once home. I feel for the captain of that flight, and the FO.

6th Mar 2004, 01:49
Couldn't our down-on-his-luck F/O used nose wheel steering and taken a high speed exit to at least clear the active?

I'd be nervous, especially somewhere where the ATC is lacking in understanding, shall we say, to shut down on the active.

But hey, single-crewing a 767 is no mean feat so who am I to second guess...

Not Long Now
6th Mar 2004, 17:18
Before everyone jumps on the guys at Dubai, pretty much the same would have happened at heathrow. Unless you declare a Pan or Mayday you have to use the declared runway. Say the magic words though, and you can basically do whatever you like.

As for the breakdown in communicaton about the requested tow, bit crap I'll give you, but please remember, if you have a problem please please please spell out exactly what you can or cannot do to the poor ATCO. Personally I'd have no idea what single crewing meant to the operation of the plane.

6th Mar 2004, 18:44
Company SOP regarding RHS single crew ops, stop the aircraft on the runway and await towing vehicle.
There is no second tiller on the B767, so the RHS guy is limited by rudder inputs to directional steering, and then by differential braking. Safer all round to stop on the runway and wait for tow.
I agree that this could have happened anywhere, but surely the knowledge and understanding of single crewing any heavy jet must have an impact on the controllers understanding of how and what assistance that flight will need.

7th Mar 2004, 14:55
A controller can declare an emergency for you as a fligth crew. I have done it before, I have seen flight crews hesitant of saying the magic words.. I declare it for you and then we part the seas and bring you in without delay. What happened at Dubai is a product of having "low time" controllers.

8th Mar 2004, 00:43
You and many other pilots need to understand that if you have an emergency situation, you need to declare an emergency . As others have stated, you will not get priority unless you declare. This is a fairly broad ATC principle. "I'm a little short of fuel" or "we have a minor technical problem" just doesn't cut it. (I think airline spin doctors are actually affecting safety in this regard- but that's a whole other thread). These days, most aircraft are 'a little short of fuel' as they approach their destination, without actually having an emergency. It's a great way to jump the queue though, penalising companies who aren't 'a little short of fuel'. If you are following your co. SOPs, let them take the heat for fuel problems. At least one flight a day shows up with a 'sick passenger'. If it's an emergency, what is the problem with declaring it?the captain of alitalia was so pissed off that he had to declare an emergency to use rwy 12R and save the life of this passenger What a ridiculous statement. now can anybody explain what kind of improfetionel people the controlers in dubai are?? For the National controllers, English is a second language. Do I call Alitalia pilots unprofessional because I frequently have to repeat instructions to gents with an interesting grasp of English? Please try and imagine the diffuculty of a young National trying to understand this situation. This is a very young country, emerging into the international world at a phenomenal rate, and to expect no teething troubles is unrealistic. However, let he without sin cast the first stone. Stories about Italian ATC or Alitalia pilots anyone?

8th Mar 2004, 04:34
Ferris has hit the nail in the head.

Good one!

8th Mar 2004, 05:18
As for B767, some have 2 sets of steering wheels, some only 1.
All depending on the specs from the Airline.
(However a High speed turn-off with rudder pedals is not so complicated)
Regards DD

Father Jack
9th Mar 2004, 18:36
Some corrections first.

Flight was overflying East to West, and announced intention to ACC to divert due medical emergency.

At the airport, preparations for Low Visibility Operations had commenced, with all safeguards completed, however cloud was hovering just above the 300' cloudbase required to start actual LVOs.

Consideration was given to straight in 30, however due to construction of road tunnel east of the airport associated with airport expansion, no landings available on 30R which is the approved CAT II runway.

Runway 30L considered not a guaranteed option due to the imminent onset of LVOs.

Traffic positioned for 12, and again serious consideration given to 12R as closer to terminal, however as above with the weather conditions worsening, it was decided that the 380m additional taxi was preferable to a missed approach due weather, therefore aircraft positioned 12L, where a successful landing was carried out.

Within minutes of the aircraft landing, cloud base dropped airport into full LVO precedures. Some may argue that the ATCOs should have had a stab at one of the other runways, however I feel they made a balanced decision to reduce the risk of a go around and guarantee a landing.

If they had of taken the known risk, and it went wrong, then this would be an entirely diffierent thread.

There was no misunderstanding of the seriousness of the situation, and the ATC crew involved worked hard through all the available options to bring the event to a successful conclusion.

I am pleased to hear from Carolosm that the passenger's life was saved.

(edited for typos)

10th Mar 2004, 00:53
Would it not have been prudent to dispatch an ambulance and some steps to the runway instead of taxying for 380m back to the terminal?

Just a thought...

By the way, who foots the bill for the pax's medical care in notoriously expensive Dubai? Obviously Alitalia will get stung for the landing fees but are they responsible for looking after the guy once they've left him there?

10th Mar 2004, 02:35
Drowsy Driver,

Taxiways are narrower than runways (In most cases). The best place to be if you want emergency vehicules around, airstairs connected to the aircraft...etc...etc.. Is on the runway....

I guess the guys puting the SOP's together had thought a little...

The best judge in such a case is the PIC.... He had the big picture I guess...lets give him credit....

10th Mar 2004, 06:40
euro ATC

A controller can declare an emergency for you as a fligth crew.

Where exactly is that written down ?

I can't do that in the UK.

14th Mar 2004, 11:26
Good one Ferris.......

14th Mar 2004, 13:04
Hey Slingsby, Did I hear rightly that you are now flying the beat for the boys in blue?

14th Mar 2004, 23:54
Weird the captain had to make a decision to go for the runway that's closest to the airport.

While flying in Europe we were told to declare an emergency and ask for a cardiac ambulance(UK thingy??). Waiting for so long in DXB is not to blame on the ATCO's

I think but things like airstairs taking 25 min is a serious problem in DNATA. If it would happen to me I'd move heaven to get the guy in charge fired. (DNATA=local handling agency)DoNothingAtTheAirport

And even if I pax has a cardiac arrest it might be smarter to blow the glides then waiting for an airstair.

I think it's easy to say DXB ATC is bad but compared to surrounding countries ATC in Dubai is pretty good, Bahrain a bit less (Since they won't give TOLMO->TESSO) hehe, otherwise no complains here.

15th Mar 2004, 09:01
We can only use TOLMO TESSO routing for US military aircraft because this is not an actual airway and is outside controlled airspace.

Aircraft carriers often operate under ths TOLMO TESSO path and aircraft flying off the carrier can operate in this airspace with due regard. Sometimes they can climb very quick and there is not much time if any to move an aircraft overflying out of the area.

Therefore, no civil aircraft are permitted to fly this routing.

15th Mar 2004, 09:25
It wasn't meant serious, but thanks for the info nice to know why we can't get it. Never knew there are carriers in that area gives me something to do on the long way up.

Now i've to go through al the charts again to find another shortcut. The things you do not to get bored....

But I'm generally happy with the (transit)ATC coming from Iraq the shortcuts on the way are very very very much appreciated by me after working for 12 hrs. Yes even the mighty 1900 flies longhaul.


The Euronator
15th Mar 2004, 10:38

frequently have to repeat instructions to gents with an interesting grasp of English? Please try and imagine the diffuculty of a young National trying to understand this situation.

It's hard for an English speaking person to spell things as well, heh Ferris ;) ;)

15th Mar 2004, 15:14
Cowpat, temporary infill posn. BY the way, waiting for another start up, maybe coventry......

anything in the land of the golden taps or surrounding area?

15th Mar 2004, 18:44
diffuculty is the New Zilland pronunciation.

Tidan De Sheveld
16th Mar 2004, 07:12
The standard of ATC in the UAE has dropped in standard in the last ten years more than any other I am associated with. That includes Australasia, North and South Asia, Middle East and Western Europe.

Since the expansion of Emirates, the pressure has been on and the ATC units have not been able to handle it. My personal opinion is that they have not chosen their supervisors well and these people have allowed a policeman like attitude to pervade the controllers on the radio. I have no idea of whether or not there are sufficient numbers of staff and I am well aware of the difficulties of having two cultures in the workplace. However, I believe that whatever the difficulties are, the voice over the radio must remain calm, clear and correct. In my seventeen years of flying into Heathrow, I have never once heard a controller say anything derisive or use a tone that wasn't neutral.

As an example, most of us going there will have heard that arrogant Englishman who is usually on ground control or delivery, and on one occasion trying to do both at the same time, berating people for their English skills and/or missing a minor point from his instructions. I don't know if he volunteered to do both or was forced to run both jobs because of staff shortages. Regardless, his attitude and patronising language belong at best, as he does, in a high school classroom.

As for Ferris's point that pilots are using 'fuel shortages' to jump the queue, the truth is that UAE ATC constantly favours Emirates aircraft in the queue and the only Airline I've heard go in there with a 'minor fuel shortage' was Emirates. In fact Ferris's whole demeanour on this thread is indicative of the new UAE ATC.

To the UAE controllers who use sarcasm and patronising language to those whose first language is not English, I say go home. To those controllers who don't and live with the two cultures at work, this post is not directed at you. It is directed at the unprofessional characters among you and the supervisors who allow them to behave that way.

Fly Through
16th Mar 2004, 08:26
What utter c:mad: p!

Firstly no airline is ever given priority over another here in Dubai and if we did, it wouldn't be to emirates who we don't get ID rates with ;)

Secondly as stated on other posts, yes there are the odd one or two here whose RT needs improving but it is being seen to. As for the UK, think you're talking about somewhere else mate 'cos you'll find Heathrow & Gatwick controllers just as sarcastic.

Thirdly, 'minimum fuel' calls have been made by numerous airlines but never have I heard one from Emirates. Our usual reaction is to not hold that particular aircraft up but only give priority if they declare an emergency.

To all those pilots who agree with Tidan, if you bother to read the notams before coming here, if you make correct readbacks when required, if you listen out before transmitting and always remember this isn't some dozy backwater anymore, listen out on the frequency and get that big lump of tin moving off the runway as fast as possible. Then I promise to help reign in my & my colleagues sarcasm, be polite on the radio and do what ever else you feel is required to make your trip just peachy :E

Rgds FT

16th Mar 2004, 08:59
Ummm, Tidan, I think my post was trying to support those whose first language is not English ie. the local controllers trying to understand others whose grasp of English is, shall we say, tenuous?
I was certainly having a go at pilots who are playing PR games in potentially dangerous situations (by resisting declaring emergency), and if that rubs you the wrong way, so be it.
As stated on this and other threads (see the Middle East forum- long thread on Dubai ATC and related issues) the "englishman" is well known to all around here, and may well be better suited to a different career, but when rudeness, arrogance, callousness etc can be seen as positives in this part of the world, don't hold your breath.
In my experience, EK has no more or less 'fuel shortages' than any other airline flying in here- it's just there's a lot more EKs. The fuel thing and holding is discussed on the ME thread at length- suggest a look.
As for EK getting 'priority'- the Area guys (who do the spacing and pretty much decide winners and losers) GET NOTHING FROM EK. Do I need to say more? Why on earth would we give EK priority? Nationalistic fervour?In fact Ferris's whole demeanour on this thread is indicative of the new UAE ATC. The 'new UAE ATC' is tired, overworked, getting less and less breaks, less days off, working meteoric traffic increases with THE SAME NUMBER OF STAFF AS YEARS AGO. But I will try and call you 'Sir' more often as you hold.:hmm: I have no idea of whether or not there are sufficient numbers of staff Do your homework, and I might have more time for your whinges.

Flying Mechanic
16th Mar 2004, 18:18
from a reliable source who was at the holding point that night.....
(dubai refueller!!!)
they called up danata on 131.6 and gave an eta of 30mins.....
why not lob into muscat where the wx was cavok...or doha, also cavok, if they had already gone past dxb.
12L was in use for departure as well as arrivals. with rvr's 1400, 1000, 400. cloud base was 200ft....at this point fog was moving in quite quickly...TAF was for 200m
Had Luigi checked the weather prior to deciding to divert to dubai? or even checked his charts to see which was the CAT 11 runway!

16th Mar 2004, 23:06
Why doesn't Dubai use a C. Delivery??
Everytime I've been there it's been ground doing both, and people stepping all over each other trying to get push and start, taxi, clearances.
It gets pretty frustrating trying to get a word in edgewise, had to wait half an hour from getting start, to getting taxi, while we had to listen to a certain controller berate the poor Iranian "Assman" and he was making the point of saying "Ass" read his clearance back 4 or 5 times.
Totally unprofessional, it almost seemed like he was enjoying bringing things to a grinding halt, until someone else took over the fq and got the traffic moving.
End of Rant
Sorry for spelling

17th Mar 2004, 01:37
Never had any problems with DXB controllers. They're probably more professional then anywhere, and still find a small gap to fill in a joke. However, due to the junk flying around down there, mainly steered by our eastblock friends, with their poor grasp of the english language, I can understand if controllers there get a bit ticked off, making smart comments.

Never heard anybody on the freq "stating low fuel"....and for sure never EK, maybe it's the sh*t in my ears gain, I've been meaning to get that out for a long time now...

Fly Through
17th Mar 2004, 07:35
During the busy periods we do use Clearance Delivery or Ground Movement Planning as it's now known. Just don't have the staff to man it permanently and that ain't gonna change anytime soon :ugh:

Yes the odd arse works here but nobody delibrately tries to clog things up around here. The standard of some of the pilots on the northside are just abysmal, stepping on top of each other etc.
Rgds FT