Dubai
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Dubai
2 days ago an alitalia departed dubai for itali .
20 minutes in to the flight the requested to come back because one of the passenger was having a heart attack and the crew requested rwy 12R to be closer to the terminal to disembark the pax. stange enought the controler told them to use 12 L because 12R was used for TO. the captain of alitalia was so pissed off that he had to declare an emergency to use rwy 12R and save the life of this passenger. eventualy he did land 12R because of the emergency he declare. now can anybody explain what kind of improfetionel people the controlers in dubai are??
see u all
20 minutes in to the flight the requested to come back because one of the passenger was having a heart attack and the crew requested rwy 12R to be closer to the terminal to disembark the pax. stange enought the controler told them to use 12 L because 12R was used for TO. the captain of alitalia was so pissed off that he had to declare an emergency to use rwy 12R and save the life of this passenger. eventualy he did land 12R because of the emergency he declare. now can anybody explain what kind of improfetionel people the controlers in dubai are??
see u all
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I can tell you that it's chaotic at Dubai at the moment because of the knock effects of fog . . . my wife sat at the airport for 12 hours waiting for news of her flight and has now been sitting on the aircraft waiting for departure for over an hour.
I remember a conversation last year about the standard of DXB ATC understanding of emergency and unusual requests from flight crews. My colleague had a similar problem getting the ATCo and the tower to understand that his Captain had become seriously ill inflight and that he was in fact now single crewing a B767. He requested that a tow-tractor to meet the aircraft on the runway as he could not turn the aircraft off the runway. He was then told to take up a hold as he was not in their traffic pattern, retorting rather curtly he said over the VHF that his captain is lying on the flight deck floor vomiting violently and needed to get to hospital as quickly as possible. So an expeditious approach was set up and the aircraft handed over to the tower. He informed the tower of his single crew status and asked if the tow-tractor was ready. 'why' was asked by the tower, you take turn off and taxi to terminal. Flabbergasted at this my colleague declared a pan, stated that he would be stopping on the runway and will await what ever assistance the tower would like to send him. Then it all went quiet for a few seconds, the tower said tow-tractor and ambulance will be here waiting. Stopping on the runway, shutting down and informing ATC all ok, the now exhausted SFO, patiently awaited the arrival of the tow-tractor (20mins) and the ambulance (25mins).
Now there is a good ending to this, the captain made a good recovery a few days (and pounds) later. But there is a worrying point to raise, at what point did the ATCo not understand the meaning of single crewing a large heavy aircraft, and why did he not seek supervisory assistance. The Atco in question had complained afterwards that the cleaners were hoovering the room at the time and was having difficulty understanding the requests. !!!!
Now there is a good ending to this, the captain made a good recovery a few days (and pounds) later. But there is a worrying point to raise, at what point did the ATCo not understand the meaning of single crewing a large heavy aircraft, and why did he not seek supervisory assistance. The Atco in question had complained afterwards that the cleaners were hoovering the room at the time and was having difficulty understanding the requests. !!!!
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I've done a lot of flying in the Middle East and generally local ATC contollers do not understand "requests" nor do most of them understand "Pan". "Mayday" ALWAYS gets their attention and "I am declaring an emergency" normally works.
I'm interested (not critisizing) in why the FO wanted to shut down on the runway, can the 767 only be taxied from the left hand seat?
I'm interested (not critisizing) in why the FO wanted to shut down on the runway, can the 767 only be taxied from the left hand seat?
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What is it about Dubai that can make one violently sick all of a sudden? I became violently sick within 2 hours after eating lunch. Spent 3 days there recovering, then had gall bladder surgery once home. I feel for the captain of that flight, and the FO.
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Couldn't our down-on-his-luck F/O used nose wheel steering and taken a high speed exit to at least clear the active?
I'd be nervous, especially somewhere where the ATC is lacking in understanding, shall we say, to shut down on the active.
But hey, single-crewing a 767 is no mean feat so who am I to second guess...
I'd be nervous, especially somewhere where the ATC is lacking in understanding, shall we say, to shut down on the active.
But hey, single-crewing a 767 is no mean feat so who am I to second guess...
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Before everyone jumps on the guys at Dubai, pretty much the same would have happened at heathrow. Unless you declare a Pan or Mayday you have to use the declared runway. Say the magic words though, and you can basically do whatever you like.
As for the breakdown in communicaton about the requested tow, bit crap I'll give you, but please remember, if you have a problem please please please spell out exactly what you can or cannot do to the poor ATCO. Personally I'd have no idea what single crewing meant to the operation of the plane.
As for the breakdown in communicaton about the requested tow, bit crap I'll give you, but please remember, if you have a problem please please please spell out exactly what you can or cannot do to the poor ATCO. Personally I'd have no idea what single crewing meant to the operation of the plane.
Company SOP regarding RHS single crew ops, stop the aircraft on the runway and await towing vehicle.
There is no second tiller on the B767, so the RHS guy is limited by rudder inputs to directional steering, and then by differential braking. Safer all round to stop on the runway and wait for tow.
I agree that this could have happened anywhere, but surely the knowledge and understanding of single crewing any heavy jet must have an impact on the controllers understanding of how and what assistance that flight will need.
There is no second tiller on the B767, so the RHS guy is limited by rudder inputs to directional steering, and then by differential braking. Safer all round to stop on the runway and wait for tow.
I agree that this could have happened anywhere, but surely the knowledge and understanding of single crewing any heavy jet must have an impact on the controllers understanding of how and what assistance that flight will need.
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A controller can declare an emergency for you as a fligth crew. I have done it before, I have seen flight crews hesitant of saying the magic words.. I declare it for you and then we part the seas and bring you in without delay. What happened at Dubai is a product of having "low time" controllers.
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Carolosm.
You and many other pilots need to understand that if you have an emergency situation, you need to declare an emergency . As others have stated, you will not get priority unless you declare. This is a fairly broad ATC principle. "I'm a little short of fuel" or "we have a minor technical problem" just doesn't cut it. (I think airline spin doctors are actually affecting safety in this regard- but that's a whole other thread). These days, most aircraft are 'a little short of fuel' as they approach their destination, without actually having an emergency. It's a great way to jump the queue though, penalising companies who aren't 'a little short of fuel'. If you are following your co. SOPs, let them take the heat for fuel problems. At least one flight a day shows up with a 'sick passenger'. If it's an emergency, what is the problem with declaring it?
What a ridiculous statement.
For the National controllers, English is a second language. Do I call Alitalia pilots unprofessional because I frequently have to repeat instructions to gents with an interesting grasp of English? Please try and imagine the diffuculty of a young National trying to understand this situation. This is a very young country, emerging into the international world at a phenomenal rate, and to expect no teething troubles is unrealistic. However, let he without sin cast the first stone. Stories about Italian ATC or Alitalia pilots anyone?
You and many other pilots need to understand that if you have an emergency situation, you need to declare an emergency . As others have stated, you will not get priority unless you declare. This is a fairly broad ATC principle. "I'm a little short of fuel" or "we have a minor technical problem" just doesn't cut it. (I think airline spin doctors are actually affecting safety in this regard- but that's a whole other thread). These days, most aircraft are 'a little short of fuel' as they approach their destination, without actually having an emergency. It's a great way to jump the queue though, penalising companies who aren't 'a little short of fuel'. If you are following your co. SOPs, let them take the heat for fuel problems. At least one flight a day shows up with a 'sick passenger'. If it's an emergency, what is the problem with declaring it?
the captain of alitalia was so pissed off that he had to declare an emergency to use rwy 12R and save the life of this passenger
now can anybody explain what kind of improfetionel people the controlers in dubai are??
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As for B767, some have 2 sets of steering wheels, some only 1.
All depending on the specs from the Airline.
(However a High speed turn-off with rudder pedals is not so complicated)
Regards DD
All depending on the specs from the Airline.
(However a High speed turn-off with rudder pedals is not so complicated)
Regards DD
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What actually happened!
Some corrections first.
Flight was overflying East to West, and announced intention to ACC to divert due medical emergency.
At the airport, preparations for Low Visibility Operations had commenced, with all safeguards completed, however cloud was hovering just above the 300' cloudbase required to start actual LVOs.
Consideration was given to straight in 30, however due to construction of road tunnel east of the airport associated with airport expansion, no landings available on 30R which is the approved CAT II runway.
Runway 30L considered not a guaranteed option due to the imminent onset of LVOs.
Traffic positioned for 12, and again serious consideration given to 12R as closer to terminal, however as above with the weather conditions worsening, it was decided that the 380m additional taxi was preferable to a missed approach due weather, therefore aircraft positioned 12L, where a successful landing was carried out.
Within minutes of the aircraft landing, cloud base dropped airport into full LVO precedures. Some may argue that the ATCOs should have had a stab at one of the other runways, however I feel they made a balanced decision to reduce the risk of a go around and guarantee a landing.
If they had of taken the known risk, and it went wrong, then this would be an entirely diffierent thread.
There was no misunderstanding of the seriousness of the situation, and the ATC crew involved worked hard through all the available options to bring the event to a successful conclusion.
I am pleased to hear from Carolosm that the passenger's life was saved.
(edited for typos)
Flight was overflying East to West, and announced intention to ACC to divert due medical emergency.
At the airport, preparations for Low Visibility Operations had commenced, with all safeguards completed, however cloud was hovering just above the 300' cloudbase required to start actual LVOs.
Consideration was given to straight in 30, however due to construction of road tunnel east of the airport associated with airport expansion, no landings available on 30R which is the approved CAT II runway.
Runway 30L considered not a guaranteed option due to the imminent onset of LVOs.
Traffic positioned for 12, and again serious consideration given to 12R as closer to terminal, however as above with the weather conditions worsening, it was decided that the 380m additional taxi was preferable to a missed approach due weather, therefore aircraft positioned 12L, where a successful landing was carried out.
Within minutes of the aircraft landing, cloud base dropped airport into full LVO precedures. Some may argue that the ATCOs should have had a stab at one of the other runways, however I feel they made a balanced decision to reduce the risk of a go around and guarantee a landing.
If they had of taken the known risk, and it went wrong, then this would be an entirely diffierent thread.
There was no misunderstanding of the seriousness of the situation, and the ATC crew involved worked hard through all the available options to bring the event to a successful conclusion.
I am pleased to hear from Carolosm that the passenger's life was saved.
(edited for typos)
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Would it not have been prudent to dispatch an ambulance and some steps to the runway instead of taxying for 380m back to the terminal?
Just a thought...
By the way, who foots the bill for the pax's medical care in notoriously expensive Dubai? Obviously Alitalia will get stung for the landing fees but are they responsible for looking after the guy once they've left him there?
Just a thought...
By the way, who foots the bill for the pax's medical care in notoriously expensive Dubai? Obviously Alitalia will get stung for the landing fees but are they responsible for looking after the guy once they've left him there?
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Drowsy Driver,
Taxiways are narrower than runways (In most cases). The best place to be if you want emergency vehicules around, airstairs connected to the aircraft...etc...etc.. Is on the runway....
I guess the guys puting the SOP's together had thought a little...
The best judge in such a case is the PIC.... He had the big picture I guess...lets give him credit....
Taxiways are narrower than runways (In most cases). The best place to be if you want emergency vehicules around, airstairs connected to the aircraft...etc...etc.. Is on the runway....
I guess the guys puting the SOP's together had thought a little...
The best judge in such a case is the PIC.... He had the big picture I guess...lets give him credit....
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Weird the captain had to make a decision to go for the runway that's closest to the airport.
While flying in Europe we were told to declare an emergency and ask for a cardiac ambulance(UK thingy??). Waiting for so long in DXB is not to blame on the ATCO's
I think but things like airstairs taking 25 min is a serious problem in DNATA. If it would happen to me I'd move heaven to get the guy in charge fired. (DNATA=local handling agency)DoNothingAtTheAirport
And even if I pax has a cardiac arrest it might be smarter to blow the glides then waiting for an airstair.
I think it's easy to say DXB ATC is bad but compared to surrounding countries ATC in Dubai is pretty good, Bahrain a bit less (Since they won't give TOLMO->TESSO) hehe, otherwise no complains here.
While flying in Europe we were told to declare an emergency and ask for a cardiac ambulance(UK thingy??). Waiting for so long in DXB is not to blame on the ATCO's
I think but things like airstairs taking 25 min is a serious problem in DNATA. If it would happen to me I'd move heaven to get the guy in charge fired. (DNATA=local handling agency)DoNothingAtTheAirport
And even if I pax has a cardiac arrest it might be smarter to blow the glides then waiting for an airstair.
I think it's easy to say DXB ATC is bad but compared to surrounding countries ATC in Dubai is pretty good, Bahrain a bit less (Since they won't give TOLMO->TESSO) hehe, otherwise no complains here.