View Full Version : have been asked to fly someone around as a raffle prize
92Alpha
5th Mar 2004, 04:27
Hello there,
This non aviation club that a family member is in, have asked if I would fly someone around for an hour as a prize in their fund raising raffle. I'd be paying for the flight, as I'm building hours anyway. However, I'm not sure if it falls foul of some regulation or another. I'm sure I remember hearing of some heli pilot who got stung doing something similar. Anyone any ideas?
Cheers :)
92A (and its not a bus number)
bookworm
5th Mar 2004, 04:34
AIC W88 (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4W088.PDF) tells you what you need to know.
Skylark4
5th Mar 2004, 05:10
NO!!!!!!!
Absolutely not, no way, never, not ever.
Had a talk by the relevant branch of the CAA at our local PFA meeting. Comes under Hire and Reward I think.
Mike W
Shaggy Sheep Driver
5th Mar 2004, 05:20
Even though you pay all costs, the aim is to raise money for the club through the raffle. It is therefore commercial flying; but there is an exception to allow it with conditions (I think the beneficiaries have to be a charity, for instance, and there are currency and manouver and other limits). Presumably Bookworm's AIP reference will give you the CAA gen.
I used to do it for my daughters' school raffle; that's how I know (knew!!).
SSD
S-Works
5th Mar 2004, 05:42
Actually the answer is yes providing the proceeds are for a registered charity and you seek written permission from the CAA first.
It is not an automatic right, each authourisation is granted individually after consideration by the CAA.
Yes you can do a charity flight without applying to the CAA. They issue a general circular (a white page), if you comply with the requirements then they do not want to hear from you. As I recall the requirements are: operate from a licensed/goverment aurfield, have > 100 hrs PIC, tyhe aircraft must have been certified by a licensed engineer in the last 60 days and all proceeds must go to a registerted charity. The exemption is there to permit this and encourage people to run charity flights. You canm find it on there web site under a search for 'Charity Flights'. Any problems pm me, otherwise enjoy the flying and the fact that you can help others make money from your hobbey .
Timothy
5th Mar 2004, 07:00
I do this a lot, offering trips over Central London, which is quite a draw.
I do not meet the requirements of the AIC, as I have six seats, so I write to the CAA on each occasion for permission. I point out that, although I fail to meet one criterion, I exceed nearly all the others.
They reply with permission very efficiently by return of post.
It really is no big deal. The only difficulty that arises is that you don't know the date of the flight before the raffle, so you put up the prize without certain knowledge that the CAA will grant permission. Luckily this has never proved a problem so far.
Timothy
Whirlybird
5th Mar 2004, 16:34
Do check first. I looked into this some time ago, though I don't remember all the details. You need a certain amount of experience/hours. I thought you needed to contact the CAA each time, though I may be wrong. But you do need to get the info on charity flights and find out. And if it isn't for charity, it's commercial, so forget it!
How would the CAA know if Mrs Miggins from the Bognor and District Womens Group won a prize in the local village fete raffle and actually gone up in a plane...?
S-Works
5th Mar 2004, 18:42
Ah yes BRL but this is PPRUNE and how else would posters be able to fill there lives other than by posting the letter of the law interpreted by themselves and then "positivly" reinforced to ruin others fun?
FlyingForFun
5th Mar 2004, 18:57
Maybe it's just me, but.....
Yes, we do, on occassion, get pages and pages of discussion on the finer legal points, when no one actually cares. But I don't think this is one of those cases.
92A is not a member of the club organising the raffle - one of his family members is. The chances are, he doesn't know many of the club members. If these club members get their friends and family to enter the raffle, the chances are high that 92A will end up flying with someone he's never met before.
BRL asks "How would the CAA know if Mrs Miggins... actually gone up in a plane." Unfortunately, there are lots of "Mrs Miggins" out there who do care about these finer legal points, and who might do their homework before going on such a flight. And if it's not Mrs Miggins herself, then it may be Mrs Miggins' friend, whom she tells about her flight in good faith, who turns out to be the busy-body.
Personally, I wouldn't undertake something like this unless I was absolutely certain it was legal. Fortunately, it looks like it's likely to be able to be done legally. (And - very unusually for the CAA - there is a single clear document to clarify the situation!)
FFF
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Timothy
5th Mar 2004, 19:01
L
It is the same as anything else. It only really matters when you are caught.
If you do illegal PT, and someone is hurt or killed, not only will you be prosecuted but also your insurance company won't pay up.
So you could end up with a huge claim against you (the loss of the sole breadwinner in a large family, a stockbroker to boot) as well as a substantial fine or worse.
As dear bose likes to tell us, it's all to do with the risks that you are prepared to take, and for what benefit.
If, bose you don't think that it is appropriate, when 92alpha asks on PPRuNe for people's interpretation of the law, that people should reply on PPRuNe with their interpretation of the law, what do you think PPRuNe is for? Why don't you just not read, and certainly not respond to, threads of this sort? I know that you like doing the windy-uppy bit, but don't you ever get bored? :p
Timothy
S-Works
5th Mar 2004, 19:25
timothy, nope I never get bored of it!!! I do like to see a few raw nerves exposed!
It brings as much enjoyment to my meaningless life as those who spout endless law interpreted by themselves frequently incorrectly!!!
I mean an absolute positive NO!!!! when in fact it is perfectly allowable.
:D
FlyingForFun
5th Mar 2004, 20:14
I mean an absolute positive NO!!!! when in fact it is perfectly allowable. One of the great things about PPRuNe, IMHO, is that anyone can post what they believe is the right answer to a question. If that answer actually turns out to be wrong, there will be a long line of people waiting to correct you. Which means that a) the original poster gets the answer to his question, and b) the person who posted the wrong answer will have his misconceptions corrected (often with links to official documents, too). So everyone's a winner! :ok:
FFF
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PS - Is it just me, or is it true that another feature of PPRuNe is the thread-creep which always seems to crop up on threads like this. Ho hum!!!
Timothy
5th Mar 2004, 21:41
But bose....!!!
Your answer was incorrect (you don't need permission if you match the criteria in the AIC, it is effectively an automatic right) so why have a go at other people whose understanding is a little short of desired?
If we all knew everything there would be no need for PPRuNe, or indeed the Internet.
Timothy
PS - Is it just me, or is it true that another feature of PPRuNe is the thread-creep which always seems to crop up on threads like this. Ho hum!!!
Ooooh, like you don't cause if often enough! ;) Now anybody want to talk about Football...?
S-Works
5th Mar 2004, 22:13
Christ no, spare us from football. I would rather have air law lectures!
:p
Timothy
5th Mar 2004, 23:02
Why is it that just about every Premier and 1st Division team is saying that they are unable to put forward a decent team because of injury. I mean I know that this is the time in the season that injuries are at their worst, but this year is just becoming a joke.
Incidentally, what are Norwich's chances of promotion?
:p
Timothy
DubTrub
5th Mar 2004, 23:24
I hear Leicester City have a new strip...grey with black arrows on it.:}
S-Works
5th Mar 2004, 23:51
oh god, noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.:p
Skylark4
6th Mar 2004, 03:14
Bose.
NO!!!!
Thats the way I understood it. The video that went with it showed a legal flight in an R22 where the person who had organised the pub raffle was given a free trip. The illegal flight which followed, where the winner of the raffle was given his trip showed a very poor takeoff which drifted back into the power lines. Not that much fuel in a 22 but it burns quite brightly.
The point of my post was to prevent the original poster from doing something silly. We are all, including you, I hope, much better informed now.
Mike W
S-Works
6th Mar 2004, 03:47
NO!!!! youre original post was telling the person that asked the question that he could NOT do the flight, not that you did not think he should do the flight in case he burnt his innocent passenger to a frasp.
So NO!!!! I am no better informed than your original post!!!
Enjoy!
:cool:
[Head-Bang-Against-The-Wall-Icon-thingy]ON :}
Skylark4
6th Mar 2004, 06:42
Bose
Please learn to read and understand words written in English.
When you have read them, please digest them, think on them, and chill out for a while. Then, if you must, formulate an answer or comment which tells us something useful. When you have written your post, read it and edit it so that it makes sense.
Do not bother to criticise me again, I shall not respond.
Mike W