Biggin Hill ATC

[Big Hilly]

Last year, I posted a thread on here about Biggin Hill ATC, or more precisely the issue of split frequencies at the unit, which led to a long and, at times, quite heated debate.

In recent times, I have flown from Biggin on a number of occasions (as well as tuning in at FL90 whilst overhead the field in the hold) and the unit is now virtually always providing both a Tower and an Approach service.

I assume that the staffing problems that prevented this from happening last year have now been resolved and I’m sure that many others on this board will join me in taking this opportunity of thanking all of the ‘Boys and Girls’ there at Biggin for all of their hard work regarding this issue. There is no doubt that the introduction of the almost permanent spit-frequency has made Biggin a much more enjoyable and, hopefully, safer place to fly from.

With very best wishes,

Big Hilly

[FlyingForFun]

I've never had any reason to go to Biggin Hill, but I remember the thread well, and it certainly would have influenced my decision on whether or not to go there had I ever considered a visit.

Very glad to hear that it's all sorted out now. I will now add Biggin to my list of places that I'd be quite happy to go to if the opportunity ever arises!

Out of interest, what do you feel were the factors which influenced this improvment? Do you think PPRuNe played any part? Big/small? Was it more down to complaints through official channels? Or was it simply a temporary staffing problem that would have fixed itself over the course of time regardless of any actions which you or others took?

FFF
---------------

[Warped Factor]

In recent times, I have flown from Biggin on a number of occasions (as well as tuning in at FL90 whilst overhead the field in the hold) and the unit is now virtually always providing both a Tower and an Approach service.

So you're the one that we always have to call two or three times before getting a response when trying to give a heading out of the stack :p

WF.

[Big Hilly]

Nah, WF, that usually only happens when we're listening to the cricket at the same time. :D ;)

Best wishes,

Big Hilly

[pilotwolf]

They, (Biggin Hil in general), seemed a bit short staffed on Wednesday lunch time...

The refueller was also wearing the marshaller's hat and the cashier's hat. One of those surreal experiences when you get sent from one place to another for different things and a clone serves you....

Guess everyone else was clearing the snow from the apron in front of the International Terminal! ;)

[Timothy]

FFF

There really was not any time when you should have avoided Biggin. As several of us tried to say at the time, it is a very well controlled environment, and ATC, though sometimes busy, is always calm and competent.

I think I agree with BH that 138.4 seems to be in use more now than before, but I didn't agree with hem then that it was underused.

In fact, there are plenty of times during these relatively quiet winter months when it just seems a little silly to change frequency at three miles, then again at six miles.

But do come, it's a really good GA environment.

Timothy

[Big Hilly]

Timothy,
I think I agree with BH that 138.4 seems to be in use more now than before, but I didn't agree with hem then that it was underused.

In fact, there are plenty of times during these relatively quiet winter months when it just seems a little silly to change frequency at three miles, then again at six miles.
We went over all of that in the 'first episode' on here, mate and I don't think it's a good idea to open that particular 'can of worms' up again.

To reiterate; the point of my post was that: [list=1]
Changes have been made, which anyone with an ounce of good airmanship will see can only be for the better.
To say a big "Thank You" to all involved in enabling these changes to have been made and to hope that others will have the good grace to join me in my vote of thanks.[/list=1]
BTW, I think you'll find it's 134.8! :D ;)

FFF,

Not sure whether or not the original thread did have any bearing on the decision. It is my understanding that the CAA were aware of it, so who knows? Either way, the people in the right places made the right decision.

Best wishes,

Big Hilly

[SATCO Biggin]

Unfortunately I am currently not able to pass comment on this thread. Probably just as well because I would end up being booted off the forum.

Regards

SATCO Biggin :*

[QuackDriver]

Biggin is no better or worse then anywhere else really. Good Wx weekends can be busy, especially after about 11 ish as people start launching off but no major dramas. Circuit can get very busy but again ATC are always good about it and do their best to handle the level of traffic around.

As for TWR/App frequency split I have no real problem with that either, all part of handling aircraft really. Most aircraft have either flip/flop on the radio or a second box, those that don't just require a bit more planning and work.

At the risk of flaming, I'd say that unless you have an urgency/emergency, handling two frequencies as part of the arrival/departure checks should be well within the capacity of any pilot (I hope!)

now prioritising ILS traffic is another matter, especially of a VFR day, perhaps SATCO Biggin could say a few words about the policy and practices for that .... :\

[TEN-4]

QuackDriver

now prioritising ILS traffic is another matter, especially of a VFR day, perhaps SATCO Biggin could say a few words about the policy and practices for that ....
When you say 'a VFR day', I take it you mean VMC? I guess the reason why ILS traffic is prioritised over a/c flying VFR (at any ATC unit) is because they are:
[list=1]
IFR- (this requires more co-ordination with Approach/Radar therefore more work for an already busy ATC unit. More co-ordination = less time controlling a/c).
Require IFR vs IFR separation standards (again more work for an already busy ATC unit)
Commercial aircraft (the majority of) with paying passengers who are probably not flying for fun but for business or on medivac flights or whatever (as opposed to light a/c flying VFR, 99.9% for fun).
It's usually larger aircraft that utilise the ILS and it's those who pay the most money in landing/handling fees. Airports are businesses after all.
[/list=1]
Imagine yourself as a Global Express pilot (or other complicated/high cockpit workload a/c) on final approach, after a long stressful flight from America (or Manchester), only to be sent around from the ILS by ATC (as an example, at Biggin Hill) just because some unfortunate Cessna 152 which was on a circuit training detail on final approach doing 60KT groundspeed (for fun). In this scenario, this jet would have to carry out a 'Standard Missed Approach' (which looking at the AIP chart for Biggin Hill is not the easiest or shortest in the world). This avoidable manoeuvre would possibly cost the jet operator hundreds of pounds in extra fuel/euro control fees, and also causing a higher work load for ATC let alone the jet pilot. I don't know about you but I'd rather the C152 either orbit/extend downwind or in some cases go-around in order to facilitate the jet. Now do you see why ILS a/c get priority over a/c flying VFR?

(These are my opinions and not those of my employer NATS LTD)

[Big Hilly]

TEN-4, Imagine yourself as a Global Express pilot (or other complicated/high cockpit workload a/c)....I assume, by that you mean a flight where one has to change frequencies at three miles, then again at six miles!! :D ;)


SATCO Biggin,

I hope I wasn't the reason for the " :* ". If so, then please feel free to PM me and I'll happily talk things through 'off the record'.

Best wishes,

Big Hilly

[Timothy]

I assume, by that you mean a flight where one has to change frequencies at three miles, then again at six miles!! Do you not understand the difference between an inability to do something and not wanting the bother of doing something?

What pleasure do you get from these silly little wind-ups?

Timothy

[Field In Sight]

TEN-4,

Funny you should mention that. Whilst I was hour building a couple of years ago I was asked to turn an early base and keep my speed up on an approach into Van Nuys, CA.

I was in a C152 and a following Gulfstream Jet had to go around. Ooops.

Then again, it was a "VFR"/CAVOK'ey type of day, so they just had to do a visual go-around into the circuit. I'll bet they were a bit pi$sed off though :}

Personally, I think that if you are given priority by ATC over a larger/thirstier/more expensive aircraft you should be able to negotiate with the other traffic so that they will pay your fuel bill on landing if you let them land first :p

FIS.

[Big Hilly]

Timothy/WCollins (Or whatever you've decided to call yourself this week),

This is not the place for a flame war.

Should you wish to continue this conversation away from these boards, then feel free to PM me and I shall be only too happy to put you straight, in private.

Best wishes,

Big Hilly.

[dublinpilot]

Guys,

I know nothing of Biggin Hill, or the obvious politics going on there. But this thread was clearly started to simply say thank you.

The first post on this thread didn't go into any arguments or issues, but simply said "Thanks". Why go back over old ground, and turn a thank you thread into an old argument?

BH tried in both his first post, and his third post, to avoid bringing up the argument again....can't we just leave it at that?

dp:rolleyes:

[Flyin'Dutch']

FIS,

I recently spend a little flying time in the US and it was amazing that people in small spam cans get treated with the same egards as the heavier metal. I was actually embarrassed by seeing a few bizjets waiting at the hold for me to do my touch and go.

But then commercial pressures may well be entirely different in the States!

On the whole I think that we get dealt with fairly by ATC as long as you can fit yourself in and discharge yourself with some degree of ability of the task of aeroplane driver.

FD

[TEN-4]

Timothy/WCollins
Do you not understand the difference between an inability to do something and not wanting the bother of doing something? Now now ladies, I'm sure you didn't have that kind of attitude when you were flying for a living.......... why have it now on an open forum? :sad:

Like dublinpilot say's, Big Hilly tried in both his first post, and his third post, to avoid bringing up the argument again....can't we just leave it at that?- well said Dublinpilot!

Big Hilly, it's nice to occasionally here some good news on Pprune and I'm glad that whatever changes have been made at Biggin Hill are for the better! Maybe I'll pop down south to have a look one day.

TEN-4 BB.:ok:

[QuackDriver]

Actually I was asking a sensible question. I was interested because I have been sent around on a number of occasions because of IFR traffic on the approach, on one occasion ending up doing more then two circuits because I was instructed to break left to the deadside and then rejoin.

Having an IMC rating myself I can appreciate that there is a lot of work involved in getting onto and then down the glide slope, but on a VMC day for light single traffic, when I had already been sent round twice by IFR traffic I thought it would be nice if the inbound IFR had the opportunity to try a break for visual join, especially when I'm already down to 300' on the approach .... /rant off

The sensible question was .... if there is a way I can help by arranging my flight to avoid such times when there is a lot of inbound IFR traffic then I'd like to help and do so, but if there are no guidelines or preferences or such then I'm a bit stuck working out how to help out if I can.

I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative I genuinely want to know what the policy is so if I'm aware of IFR traffic I can do an orbit or take a long down wind or hold at 7oaks or whatever.

The original circumstances were, I'm sure, exceptional, but if there are 3 flights on the glide slope then letting joining or aircraft in the circuit know this might help so we can offer to orbit or hold as appropriate ........ just a thought

[TEN-4]

QuackDriver
I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative I genuinely want to know what the policy is so if I'm aware of IFR traffic I can do an orbit or take a long down wind or hold at 7oaks or whatever.
Just do what ATC tell you to do. Do it promptly, correctly without asking why and your be OK!:ok: Whatever you do, don't spontaneously orbit, reduce speed or climb/descend without first notifying ATC......unless of course you are taking avoiding action!:uhoh:

[Timothy]

BH and I have had a very constructive chat off-line and I am sure that there will be no repetition of that little bit of fur flying.

I apologise to the rest of you, as I have to BH, for my negative contribution.

Timothy

[Kirstey]

Fight Fight Fight - oh no it's only (ex) Biggin ATCOs that do that isn't it!!

[TEN-4]

Fight Fight Fight - oh no it's only (ex) Biggin ATCOs that do that isn't it!!
Sounds a tad serious!!:ouch:

[Flyin'Dutch']

Kirstey,

Take it you were amongst those cheering on people who were having a scrap at the playground.

What an immature attitude.

Don't you think it would be more dignified to keep information to which you are obviously privvy, under your hat.

I can not see what a post like that contributes at all.

FD

[TEN-4]

Flyin'Dutch'
Take it you were amongst those cheering on people who were having a scrap at the playground. What an immature attitude. Don't you think it would be more dignified to keep information to which you are obviously privvy, under your hat. I can not see what a post like that contributes at all.


And you reckon your post, as quoted above, does contribute? As this is a Rumor Network, if you don't like/belive what you read on these forums you should :mad: ignore them.

Kirstey keep any information that you are privvy to coming!

[mad_jock]

Nah keep it under your hat and don't feed the old wifes the gossip.

Scraps in the car park are all highly amusing to bystanders but in the long run are never really funny. (this has been learnt by experence)

Nobody is a winner whatever happened.

Don't now anything about the politics down there but if a ATCO leaves its one less person providing a service from what sounds like a team which is already working hard.

The SATCO looses because of HR crap covering shifts and trying to hire someone to fill the job
The rest of the team looses because they have to work more.
The airport looses ATC has reduced man power.
And the customers loose out because the ATC are having to work with reduced staff.

A pile of horse poo really.

MJ

[Timothy]

I really, honestly believe that we should all just shut up about this now.

Timothy

[Kentish Lad]

Hell's Teeth! What on earth has been going on up there up at Biggin?

All this 'Cloak and Dagger', "best not to mention it", "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" stuff has got the rest of us with our mind's racing!!!

It's rather like the Captain of the Titanic making an announcement to the passengers to say that "the ship's not sinking"!

Big Hilly

I have read through this and your last topic and there is no doubt, you have done a very good thing. Thank you from all of us who visit Biggin on a regular basis.

John

[Flash0710]

People's Champion or champion Sh*t stirrer?

As asked in original topic why not discuss face to face with appropriate persons and not in this irresponsible way?

F?:suspect:

[Big Hilly]

Flash0710,

As I seem to recall saying to you the last time around: Thank you for your mature and intelligent contribution to a serious debate on aviation safety. :rolleyes: As to the reasons why I didn't discuss this "face to face"; Are you really sure you want me to state them on here - won't it make trips in the Yak with Pete just a little uncomfortable?

Best wishes,

Big Hilly

[SATCO Biggin]

Hmmmm !!

Don't know who I am supposed to be taking/have taken for a trip in the Yak, but the list of those who have been is pretty short.

Big Hilly seems to know lots about what I do, looks like I have my own personal 'stalker' !

Better keep an eye over my shoulder from now on in case he is following.... :eek:

[Big Hilly]

Well, SATCO Biggin, I can’t deny that I do find you rather attractive. . . :O

Best say nothing more about it on here, perhaps I could woo you with Roses and Chocs on Saturday (14th)?

Best wishes,

Big Hilly :D ;)

[SATCO Biggin]

Sorry the 'secretive' types do not float my boat, but I am sure some other thread contibutors might take you up on the offer of Roses and Chocs. :E

[Big Hilly]

Oooh, SATCO Biggin, you old tease, you . . . . . :D ;)

BH

[Flash0710]

My contribution to the forum was quite straight forward.

If it aint broke dont fix it.

You BH seem to have had too many years flying whilst having your nose blown. No doubt earning a pretty packet

Meanwhile lower life forms as you arrogance suggests still have to deal with the good old fashioned wait your turn stuff!

You have a job! Be happy. But to now lord it over being the self proclaimed Biggin ATS inspector well please.......

:yuk:

Perhaps you were bullied as a child.:hmm:

[SATCO Biggin]

Well aren't we having fun around here. Less than savoury comments are starting to fly again.

Lets get one or two things clear from my perspective.

Decisions regarding the staffing and operational status of the Biggin ATC Unit are made according to the resources that we have available to us, and taking into account the comments and suggestions made to us by our customers. Customers that is who come and see us or make direct contact with us. Not those who post to public forums and hide behind anonymous names. If you have the courage of your convictions then come and talk to us.

Whilst I agree this is a democratic society and there is a degree of freedom of speech (within the limits of decency and legality) care should be taken when commenting publically.

I have actively supported the founders of this forum, and the Compuserve forums that went before, for many years. I believe such forums offer an important service to all of us in the 'aviation industry'. I would not wish to gag contributors unecessarily.

Perhaps though we should pause occasionally to assess what impact our postings have. The subject matter of this thread, and the one that went before it may have started as an innocent comment, although I am increasingly doubting that theory. Big Hilly and others who crave 'juicy bits of gossip' regarding the misfortunes of others would do well to remember that they may be having fun, but for those that are being commented upon the realities of life are somewhat different. I hope one day I may be allowed to wander into the working lives of Big Hilly, Kirstey, Kentish Lad, Ten-4 and others and spread gossip publicly regarding any misfortunes in their lives (all from an anonymous position of course). If I am really lucky I might be able to get my hands on a real bit of career threatening action and spread it around the forum and to hell with the humans behind it all.

Now, however, my understanding is wearing thin.

To the moderators of this forum, keep up the good work, but I hope you are also keeping tabs on this thread.

To the one who is arrogant enough to call himself/herself the 'Peoples Champion', I hope you are having fun, I know a few people who are not.

[Big Hilly]

SATCO Biggin ,

I shall reply to this at greater length later, as imminent work prevents me from doing so now. But could I just clarify one or two points:

The purpose of this thread was to say THANK YOU for the changes that YOU have implemented at Biggin Hill. Nothing else, no hidden agenda, just a simple THANK YOU. I have taken your insults and innuendos with good grace and I also gave you the opportunity to PM me to discuss this matter with me in private, which you have declined to do. My posts have not been salacious, nor have I at any point been seeking ‘juicy bits of gossip’ and I have respected the boundaries of certain pieces of information that I have been privileged to.

I am not prepared to get into a public ‘slanging match’ here with you. If you have the guts, then PM me and we’ll get our differences sorted once and for all; otherwise we can carry on banging on about it on here until the moderators lose their patience and throw both of us off this forum!

The ball’s in your court. . .

Best wishes,

Big Hilly

[SATCO Biggin]

I too do not intend to get into a slanging match with you.

If you have the guts, then PM me and we’ll get our differences sorted once and for all;

Now that is a bit rich from someone who will not even admit who they are.

As we obviously have different ideas as to exactly why the original thread was started, why you subsequently had to drag in the subject of the altercation in the tower and now post a thread congratulating me on a job well done.

Save your typing later, I will PM you.

Best Wishes

SATCO Biggin

[Kirstey]

To be fair SATCO, the altercation in the tower has actually resulted in the more consistent use of two frequencies?

A guy was summararliy (bad spelling!) dismissed. It's hardly gossip, and hardly a secret! Unsavoury as the whole incident was, everyone benefitted.

[Big Hilly]

SATCO Biggin,

Thank you for your PM which I shall reply to in due course.

Can I just make one more 'public' comment regarding your last post, above?

I have just re-read the original thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95452&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) and, as far as I can see, I only made one oblique reference to the now infamous altercation, after which I refused to comment on it as a result of the ensuing enquiry and the ongoing action. Nor, I hasten to add, have I allowed myself to be drawn on it in this thread.

I would suggest that you re-read that thread in the ‘cold light of day’; as I said earlier, no malice was intended; just the simple wish to have a public discussion about something, which I felt strongly, was a serious issue.

Will catch up in private (PM’s) very soon.

Best wishes, as always,

Big Hilly