View Full Version : Blue Fox - Pilots' Paradise?

21st Apr 2001, 15:42
From today’s Indy: Blue Fox Airlines will be starting business class flights (50 inch seat pitch) from STN to NY next March, using 3 767s, 1 of which will be on permanent S/B with crew at STN. As an ex-BALPA man, no doubt Biker Tebbit will want to make sure that the pilots’ pay and conditions are the best in the industry . . .

21st Apr 2001, 15:56
Where can one apply?

21st Apr 2001, 17:08
Lets keep the optimism in check people.

You only have to look at the first posts on the DHL thread to realise that you ought not believe all thats rumoured (even pprune rumoured).

lets wait until we see the package before we start jumping through hoops.


23rd Apr 2001, 11:32
The Article in question is factual.

It depicts the intentions of Blue Fox; there should be no reason as to why this cannot be achieved.

Applications for jobs will be sought during September.

Your continued support is appreciated.

The Fixer

[This message has been edited by THE FIXER (edited 23 April 2001).]

23rd Apr 2001, 15:20
I,m sure the article is factual. My previous post was meant to rein in any false optimism about 80k pa + 20k allowances which were the initial rumours doing the rounds about DHL.

Sorry for any confusion.


23rd Apr 2001, 19:32

The Line Pilots will be getting on average in excess of 80K but not as much as 20K for allowances.

The Fixer

23rd Apr 2001, 19:58
In that case:

1) Please can I quote you on that?

2) Where do I get an application form?


24th Apr 2001, 04:18
Blue Fox - The Fixer

Celtic Aviation/Caledonian Wings - The Guvnor

Hmmmmmmmm ???????????????

Naah, couldn't be! Could it?

24th Apr 2001, 22:08
What a great industry with all these dreamers.. ;)

I'd rather be flying... :)

25th Apr 2001, 11:25
I do not want to be a killjoy bit if I was running Blue Fox?Newlines I would not be considering paying 80k+++.
These jobs if they materialise are jobs that would appeal to ex Nigels, those who wish to return to UK for direct commands such as myself rated on B757/767. These will be nice jobs .Single sector long haul with a night stop,unlike DHL 4 sector night flights.
If I was an ex Nigel I would love this job whereas I would not remotely consider DHL as it sounds far too much like hard work to me!!

The Guvnor
25th Apr 2001, 13:23
Given Biker Norm's attitude towards value for money, I am very surprised that they are offering as much as £80K - especially for a start-up! Gotta be a catch in there somewhere... :) :) :)

Dutchie - if it wasn't for all the visionary "dreamers" out there, this industry would be run exclusively by governments and pay would be at civil service rates. Sure, the attrition rates are high ... but at least we all tried. Can you say that? :) :rolleyes: :)

25th Apr 2001, 18:17
Could somebody help me out ?

I know of "Newlines" after reading their ad for 757 crews a couple of months ago.

They thought of "a whole new concept for pax flights" on route STN-JFK.

Sounds good to me : expensive tickets and hopefully good service and seats
(a 180 turn from the low-cost concept lately)

But now : is Blue Fox the same as Newlines ?

Thanks , cheers !


25th Apr 2001, 20:59
Inspector Morse:

The following report from Air Transport Intelligence (their copyright) may clear the Newlines/Blue Fox confusion up.


Premium transatlantic start-up to unveil name in June
David Morrow, London (23Apr01, 19:11 GMT, 304 words)

Proposed UK all-business start-up carrier Newlines Airways is planning to unveil a new name in June, under which the
airline will launch transatlantic operations between London and New York.

Founder and CEO Julian Cook says he hopes to conclude a funding agreement at the end of May which will provide £25
million ($36 million) from a group principally comprising five institutional investors.

The carrier intends to operate 80-seat Boeing 757-200 aircraft on daily services between London Stansted and New York
JFK. It plans to acquire two aircraft initially, with a third possibly following soon after.

But although Newlines has been eyeing lessor GATX to supply the aircraft, Cook says: “The market for 757 aircraft has
changed considerably over the last few months, and we’ve had other unsolicited offers – even for new equipment.”

Through a partnership with UK charter carrier Air 2000 Newlines has already secured slots for its proposed service. Air
2000 has extensive twin-jet operations (ETOPS) experience and Newlines has an agreement in which Air 2000 will provide
air operator’s certificate (AOC) coverage at least for an initial 12-month period.

Newlines is aiming to capture 3% of the London-New York premium market, which it estimates to be worth around $1.7
billion per year.

“We plan to offer an affordable business class service with discounts of 50-75% off published business-class prices,”
says Cook.

Along with the carrier’s formal name, Cook also intends in June to reveal a launch date for operations. The airline is currently
racing against another proposed premium-class start-up, Blue Fox Executive Airlines, which is looking to launch daily
services next March on the same route using Boeing 767-300ERs.

However, Cook doubts the market is large enough for two such operations on the route, and is also sceptical over the use
of an aircraft the size of a 767 for the service.

Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

26th Apr 2001, 02:12
Great Cyrano,

Thanks for the information.


It's Chief-inspector, by the way.

cheers !


26th Apr 2001, 02:35
And who is behind Blue Fox? As for Newlines, I'm sorry, but an 80 seat B757 at "affordable" Business Class fares below the standard price - and only from STN to boot. I give them 3 months tops. Blue Fox won't even get off the blocks. No, I'm not an expert but I've been associated with the business long enough to know that this venture won't be profitable. I said the same very early on about Caledonian Wings and of course I was hammered by The Guvnor. And where is Caledonian Wings today?
Newlines is the real thing but Blue Fox I'm not sure about. I have a strange feeling that this is a dreamer's paper airline. I may be wrong but we'll see.

26th Apr 2001, 02:37

Dreamer certainly.....visionary hmmmmm


26th Apr 2001, 03:12
You are indeed quite wrong.Blue Fox are already off the blox and have, at the last count, sold somewhere in the region of £15M
of seats for next year in block bookings for major companies.

26th Apr 2001, 04:55
OK Silkman, but my meaning of "off blocks" is actually operating. I doubt if that GBP 15M is in the bank yet. That's just a figure based on anticipated bookings. My local carrier was promised a viable percentage of bookings by local commercial companies to open a new route. The loads never materialised as promised and it soon had to be dropped.

26th Apr 2001, 11:13
In answer to the above...watch the press over the next few weeks as contracts have been entered into.

As for Newlines...lets get serious a business airline is about quality of service etc etc. Well how the hell can you provide that when you are operating 757-200 narrow body long haul business class it just does not work and only a fool would believe that it could. To provide and maintain quality you need highly motivated and trained staff, staff trained for that particular product not staff trained for leisure work, not staff that are not even employed by you. Using old aircraft on such a route for the business class traveller with constant technical problems is utter madness. They totally underestimate the competition. Ask them what happened to all their flight ops team where are they now, where is their sales and marketing team, what happened to that, for gods sake who in their airline has any airline experience, just look at the business plan. Not one person has ever worked with an airline. Piggy backing someone else’s AOC not very clever. There concept is ill-conceived, not supported by the City, not supported by Agents etc etc and I am led to believe has no management team left. They keep saying that they have slots and route licence..has anyone checked..oh please check at both ends youre in for a surprise. How can they operate out of the UK or EU when I am led to believe they are all COLUMBIANS!!!,
now lets get to the point of funding, where is it all coming from.....COLUMBIA????

26th Apr 2001, 13:32
Mr Fixer

Im not so sure you cant use narrow bodys for this type of service. Both Airbus and Boeing, with their BBJ, have smaller narrow body aircraft, in a buisinesst class fit, with the ability to do UK to JFK. I believe Mr Branson is looking into this area. I also believe Monarch and A2000 have vastly reduced seat numbers in some of their 757's operating for the upper end of the market.

It's not the width of the aircraft that counts its the amount of personal space you have inside.

26th Apr 2001, 17:02
Service I agree is vital, hence the reason why you need to have your own staff trained to provide and maintain that service. Having someone elses staff via their AOC is not the answer. BBJs etc are designed for the business user with lots of room including width thereby creating the right ambience. A 757-200 quite simply does not work..great aircraft for leisure travel though..of to sunny Spain etc with screaming kids... :)
The Fixer ;)

26th Apr 2001, 17:35
Mr Fixer I don't doubt your concerns regarding the source of the funding and lack of any airline experience in the startup for Newlines but I think you need to review your comments about the ability of the 757 to be used for long haul business class ops.

Air 2000 who are reputed to be the AOC holder who will operate the a/c on behalf of Newlines until they get their own AOC (if ever) are not unaccustomed to operating the B757 in an all 1st class mode around the world. Every year on behalf of TCS they convert 2 of their 757's to an all 1st class seat layout with 90 seats and an extended galley and operate 'Air Cruises' around the world to some very exotic destinations including Mongolia, Easter Island, Galapagos, Roratonga and many other locations. Their passengers are very wealthy people who enjoy this sirt of travel and pay upwards of $40,000 a head for the privelege.

Next year I believe that Air 2000 will be converting 3 a/c for this work for 17 themed trips. Therefore I think your views on the a/c being unsuitable and the AOC holder who will operate the a/c on behalf of Newlines being only used to 'leisure' operations is a bit unprofessional of you and points to a possible underestimate of your competitions plans. I am sure that whatever happens to Newlines that Air 2000 will make sure they have enough money up front not to be burnt by any of the other shortcomings of the new startup.

26th Apr 2001, 18:42
How come Air 2000 didn't get the idea themselves? On the second thought,maybe Swissair could do it now.Every little helps,no?

26th Apr 2001, 20:56
dont many business class pax book such to be first/quick off on arrival?

How can the whole flight be first off?

26th Apr 2001, 21:08
Can anyone in the know answer - does Blue Fox have it's own AOC at the moment?

Rolling Stone
26th Apr 2001, 23:12
THE FIXER, Would have to agree with Chutney where he says you should review your thinking re B757. Monarch has been operating a winter series of flights over the past six years ex New York to the Seychelles on a B757 with an executive config of 114 pax. Six First class and the rest Business class. It is on behalf of a large Cruise company and so a charter flight. The inside is fantastic and there is stacks of room, very light and airy.

27th Apr 2001, 01:24
Rolling Stone, don’t agree with you, both you and Chutney need to understand that a one off operation once or twice a year can be fun. To maintain a high quality service day in day out needs a dedicated and highly motivated and trained team. Using someone else’s AOC and staff will never give you that.

Quoting Monarch and Air 2000 as good examples could not be further from the truth, don’t get me wrong they are two very good airlines at economy level. If they were so good at providing a high-class service then why don’t they do it on a day-to-day basis? I have been on both flights that you are talking about, they were fun and efficient but most certainly not business first.

The 757 does not work, fact!

Who in their right mind would use old B757-200s for a high class business operation, business men don’t come back when the AC keep going tech. 2nd best does not do in the real world….only the best will do! That’s not just the aircraft that’s the staff as well.

The Fixer

27th Apr 2001, 04:19
As I understand it, Blue Fox intends to operate 3 B767s one of which will be on permanent stand-by. All this whilst charging it's customers an affordable BusinessFirst fare of GBP 1200. I was never any good at advanced maths but I see lots of red ink!

Bumpy Landings
27th Apr 2001, 19:14
Personally I think both Newlines and Blue Fox have it all wrong, apart from all the other reason discussed here Stansted has another major problem for niche operators.

Its a hell of a long trip round to LHR or LGW to get their passengers another ride if an ac has any major problems....! Much easier to appease them if flying from LHR or LGW.

'Avman' said earlier that he thought Newlines real...

The following comes from Newlines website [not exactly informative is it for an airline just about to launch!].

New face of transatlantic business travel is announced
London, January 30 2001

An airline company offering a completely new concept in transatlantic air travel is set to close a UKP25 million second round of funding within the next month...

Funded by the end of Feb? The ATI article quaoted said end of May... there's a pattern here it seems. Don't hold your breath! :)

[This message has been edited by Bumpy Landings (edited 27 April 2001).]

29th Apr 2001, 16:32
Bumpy Landings

I understand your concerns; flying from Stansted does not exactly offer many alternative options should an aircraft be grounded.

Yes passengers could be taken by bus to LHR or LGW not very convenient and very messy.

Blue Fox have adopted a very sensible and well thought out approach (comes from years of experience).

The passenger being a business person will not tolerate being let down, furthermore he will not tolerate and certainly not return if he faces incompetence.

Blue Fox has addressed these concerns with the high level of importance they deserve.

The first 3 aircraft are no more than 5 years old. By the end of 18 months all aircraft are new.

Unlike Newlines offering very old B757s.

Blue Fox also has a standby support aircraft.

This aircraft is there purely to provide support for the fleet at the same level, quality and configuration expected.

Should an aircraft have technical difficulties then the passengers are transferred to the standby aircraft. It is the only way to correctly address such a problem whilst ensuring that the level of quality remains for the passenger.

Avman, no doubt you are still trying to understand why Ryanair and Easyjet are successful and Go is not, keep away from the numbers as this appears not to be your forte.

Remember, every single one of the Blue Fox Management team is highly experienced and has a record of nothing but success.... experience counts.

The Fixer

[This message has been edited by THE FIXER (edited 29 April 2001).]

29th Apr 2001, 20:25
No! I'm still trying to understand what the hell you're on about :)

Anyway, despite my nagging doubts, I genuinely wish Blue Fox much success.

30th Apr 2001, 02:15



2nd May 2001, 01:10

Any truth in the rumour about eastbound flights to India and also Moscow?

2nd May 2001, 02:53