View Full Version : Damaged Thomas Cook 757 Lyon

Spearing Britney
26th Jan 2004, 21:25
Saw a TC 757, a super long one, at Lyon t'other day with a pretty nasty looking wing injury. Starboard wing tip just wasn't there! There are lots of light stancions around so i suspect it might be one of them... no other visible damage. Anyone know the details (don't think its posted elsewhere, search is down), I have had some lacklustre marshalling in many places but they are normally OK there.

27th Jan 2004, 01:50
a super long one....

That would be a 757-300 if the "standard" is a 757-200.

there are lots of light stancions around so i suspect that it might be one them.....

Ah,...the wing or the light stancion? Bit confusing sentence :confused:

27th Jan 2004, 02:02
Happened on Saturday morning, flight was from LGW. TCX221K.

27th Jan 2004, 03:37
No wonder you're confused, because it's supposed to be stanchion

Did the aircraft hit a stanchion? Was it Batman's fault for giving crappy vectors?

27th Jan 2004, 15:05
Can't be batman's fault.. PIC is ultimately responsible for the safety of his aircraft.

27th Jan 2004, 15:46
So if a marshaller marshalls me into an object which is out of my sight it is my fault?

Oh! I see.

Having looked at your profile I see that you are well qualified to post your opinion.

27th Jan 2004, 16:00
Well - I suppose Dewdrop is technically correct BUT......

Many years ago I clipped a de-icing rig with a wingtip despite all clear from a 'qualified wingman' - yes I finished up for tea and a chat with Station Commander but it was the wing man who was
formally cautioned and 'retrained'.

27th Jan 2004, 16:15
Batman would be to blame otherwise why is he there if not to guide the aircraft on to stand? Having said that we all know the standard of some of these guys so if in doubt stop! If you decide you dont like his instructions and do your own thing and then hit somthing that would be your fault.

27th Jan 2004, 19:28
M.Mouse - no it is not Batman's fault whatever you think. It's your plane not his. Strange though it may seem. And if a Safedock gets it wrong or you clobber something left in the way - your responsibility.

Say Mach Number
27th Jan 2004, 19:36
What was the co-pilot doing while the aircrafts starboard wing was being put into an obstruction?

Its his side and as a rule I always ask the co-pilot if its clear regardless of instructions from the ground.

Whats his excuse

fire wall
27th Jan 2004, 20:04
Co Pilot's excuse is a no brainer............you cannot see the wing tips on 757 from the flight deck..........

27th Jan 2004, 21:43

Not that I think the skipper is necessarily at fault here, the FO should also be able to judge if they are going to hit something.

If I was the FO I would shout if i thought we werent clear.

pete zahut
27th Jan 2004, 22:01
On the 757-3 and newer 757-2, you cannot see the wing tips, from the cockpit, but on older 757īs it is possible.

-Same wingspan, so now it is yours to find out why...


27th Jan 2004, 22:28
Rear view mirrors no longer standard fit?

27th Jan 2004, 22:35
Was there parked up nearby, the wing struck one of the lamp thingys (not gonna go there...!), as the aircraft was coming to a halt on a remote stand. Very busy morning with lots of ski flights etc.
Airport fire services quickly on hand but thankfully not needed.
Hope no one was hurt.

27th Jan 2004, 22:46
PZ - not visible cos the office is about 12 feet further forward on the 300?

27th Jan 2004, 23:52

Nice to have the opinion of a spotter on the 'professional pilots'

28th Jan 2004, 18:31
pete, but on older 757īs it is possible.

blinking well is not without opening a window even then youd have to unstrap and lean out.

edited to say

I would like to eat humble pie at this point, having now tried various contortions on an early 80's model you can just see the nav light but it is very difficult and you gain no usefull reference from it.
Pete you have my apologies.

Floppy Link
28th Jan 2004, 19:22
blinking well is...just
on older 757s
need to be a contortionist to get head into corner of window and just make out the tip with one eye...done it once or twice

but not while taxiing!

the new ones have the nice rounded plastic fairing over the pillar which makes it impossible

28th Jan 2004, 20:15
Guys, guys!

Its blinking well irrelevant anyway !

You cant see the wing tips from the -300 flight deck as it is a) newer style b) further forward and the wingspan is the same.

28th Jan 2004, 22:24

Ok Its probably just my head thats the wrong shape (or too big:} ) I'll try it again on one of our early 80's aircraft next time Im at work.

Anyhow Expidite is right its a moot point. You cant see them in normal ops anyhow. Just makes it a bit of a bummer to be responsible. still thats aviation for ya.

Old aeroplane I used to fly had lights down from each wingtip (canted out and forward.) So at night at least you could always see a 12"X2" rectangle of light. Made it easy to work out where the wingtip was going to go. Shame I've never seen it elsewhere.

28th Jan 2004, 23:16
If A batman is guiding the a/c then the batman is responsible
atleast at AMS...why otherwise shud a airplane being marshalled

29th Jan 2004, 16:51
Following text accompanies:

A Boeing 757 'G-JMAB' operating flight TCX235 into Lyon on Saturday was told to find its own
way to parking C41 after landing on runway 18L and struck a pole. It is estimated that the
aircraft will be grounded for approx 2 months at a cost of around 5 million Euros. (Foto Nicolas F.)

31st Jan 2004, 16:47
If the aircraft is moving under its own power, batman or not, it is the commanders responsibility, no doubt about it.

Those of you who are flying around in command and do not know this need a reality check!!

Now the bit I am unsure about is the push back, is the commander responsible then if you hit something?

Random Electron
2nd Feb 2004, 00:45
Here's something else to think about.

Yesterday, the Thomas Cook B757 fleet manager put out an internal statement that he believed that the aircraft WAS on the taxiway centre line when it's wing tip struck the flood light pole.

Still keen to throw the crew to the wolves?

2nd Feb 2004, 06:10
So you see, it was the pole that was moving erratically!:\

2nd Feb 2004, 19:26
Sounds like swept wing growth in the turn to me. Don't they teach that at flight school anymore?

3rd Feb 2004, 16:50
fmgc said:

"If the aircraft is moving under its own power, batman or not, it is the commanders responsibility, no doubt about it."

So why bother with batmen / marshallers then? If they marshall you in and whilst following THEIR orders you hit the wing how can that be your fault? What is the legal status / authority of a marshaller ?

It sounds like it boils down to "follow my guidance but if you smack the wing / nose / tail you're on your own because you are the Commander. " :hmm:

Anyone who's been to Zakynthos (ZTH/LGZA) will know that the apron is tiny. Basically a square with just enough room for one aircraft (B757/A321) in each corner and just enough space to taxi up the middle. The stands require you to taxi nose in and then swing 180° to nose out to allow you to taxi straight out. The perimeter (which is VERY close to the wing tip (or tail - limiting turn radius for the A321))) is surrounded by pylons, huts, hedges etc. If you don't get the turn right then you're stuck - there's no tugs.

This must be why we get paid so much money :rolleyes:

If you get pushed into a blast fence during push-back you are "in Command" but how on earth can you be held responsible?Presumably it comes down to who is moving the aircraft - PIC or tug driver.

Let's all be careful out there - A4 :ok:

Headset starter
3rd Feb 2004, 18:03
I've been told the skipper was making his way to stand, but had not reached the apron. ie No marshaller to be seen.

The aircraft was about to go down said taxiway when they realised it may be a tad narrow, so they checked with ATC if they are able to proceed. On two occaisions they were given the all clear by ATC, so they went. (It appears on reflection the taxiway was available for nothing much larger than an ERJ)

So you have a mistake on the skippers part, but if you've been told you can go down there and cannot see the wing tips, then there are mitigating circumstances.


Random Electron
4th Feb 2004, 15:43
jonboy38, On the B757-300, it's not only the "swept wing growth" you need to worry about when turning this aircraft on the ground.

It's the growth behind you.

The B753 tail describes the largest arc in a turn, not the wing, and yes, it is taught at Thomas Cook, at least.

4th Feb 2004, 16:03
Some while ago there was a court case / CAA v ??? when a Captain was punished for ignoring a marshaller somewhere in England. Can not remember the precise details, sorry.

Perhaps Flying Lawyer could put his 1/2 euro into this discussion.

Thats all from me, thank you....

stormin norman
4th Feb 2004, 17:00
In the 80's in Vienna a Jordanian Tristar ripped a 20 foot gash in the first class of a 747.The Taxyway markings were found to be out by approximately 10 feet.No one injured and it looked bad, but just goes to show it does happen.