MACC to the Four Winds

[Mahaba]

As this is an anonymous forum how about some MACC guys giving their opinions on the way in which our unit has been handled. Not a topic for having a go at other units as they have their own problems. Just us...telling it like it is. Maybe about the splitting of the unit, the moves to Canada, Middle East opportunities or any other MACC specific input from MACC people. If you're moving on, planning to, effects, one to one gems; before we all go our seperate ways. ;)

And by the way, for other units, feel free to join in...whatever you feel about us we all do the same job with our hands tied behind our backs by "the management". For once put the gripes away, observe and comment on what is happening to us and what we're doing about it. In the hope it never happens to your units and friends.

[Connex]

Mahaba –

Quote:”For once put the gripes away, observe and comment on what is happening to us..”

Reply: You are being shafted

Quote:” and what we're doing about it.”

Reply: Nothing

Sorry, but that’s how it looks from here.

[bagpuss lives]

I think some of my colleagues are doing something about it actually - they're leaving for pastures new. Voting with their feet if you like :)

In fact - scrub the word "some" and insert the words "many" - sadly.

I don't especially blame the management at MACC who are good sorts and of course not the people who are going - I just think it's a natural human reaction to leave when you're being transferred to another unit you either don't want to - or can't - go to.

Of course - some of it comes down to personal choice too (see my much missed fellow PPRuNer "cossack"). It's not all just about NPC - it's just the whole NavCanada thing has happened at a rather opportune time for some who felt their hands were being forced somewhat.

With regard to the pay issue I think I can confidently say that the large majority of union members at MACC will be voting a firm "no" to the proposed deal - probably the ATSAs too. Whether that will have any impact on overall acceptance or not I'm not sure.

There are an awful lot of people at LACC, TC and CATC when it comes to a ballot.

[White Rose]

I find it unbelievable that Prospect can see fit to put to the members that they think they represent any deal that splits NATS staff down the middle. This whole ploy is a deliberate attempt by management to try to put MACC and SCATCC against LACC and by the sheer numbers at LACC they think they can set up the whole devide and rule scenario. How on earth Prospect have been dumb enough to not see through this is beyond belief. Come on you Prospect reps...deny all this, you know you can't.
As for the ATSAs voting against the deal, well I hope they all do. I also hope we give PCS a mandate for strike action for one reason only. At the moment, management feel they can get away with murder, if we had just one day strike I firmly believe that they would sit up and take notice. I'm not convinced it will make any difference to this years deal but if management knew that we were prepared to use strike action then the unions hands would not be quite so tied down when it came to future negotiations.
As for the ATCO's, you have them over a barrel, stop the training, stop the aava's and the fines imposed on NATS because of the subsequent delays would far outweigh the decent payrise that you have been promised for years.
ATCO's, for once vote with your feet, this deal is an INSULT to all MACC controllers.
And as a footnote to all you others in NATS, look at this as a really serious comment. If you go down this route you will be picked off one at a time. Stick together, it's the only way, please vote no to this pathetic offer.

[mainecoon]

i have to be honest on this topic

i will go to npc
reason being i never wanted to be at manch in the first place (stitched at an early date)
however it's a great place to work and the people are good to work with. i'am sad to see the lengths some have been forced to go to to avoid the move!

pay wise if this offer is put to us and agreed i will be leaving prospect as in this and most other things they haven't supported me or my fellow atc staff at manchester

[DC10RealMan]

Mahaba writes "Lets hope that it never happens to you or your friends". I have news for him it already has!!!!. The people at Manchester are complaining about lack of support for their fight against the closing down of the Manchester centre and that they do not wish to move to either Swanwick or Prestwick. I am from Cheshire when I joined I did not want to move to Bournemouth, then I was posted to West Drayton and I did not want to move to London, after twenty years I did not want to move to Hampshire, but the uncomfortable truth is that if you want a job in NATS then there is no choice. I know that NATS personnel policies are unfair, characterised by nepotism, favouritism, incompetence, and quite a few other things and that partners are having to find new jobs, children find new schools, relocating to a new area is always an uncomfortable experience, but lots of staff at Swanwick have had to do it preceded by years of uncertainty caused by the managements incompetence and duplicity. I, and a lot of other colleagues who are from the North of England would have dearly loved to have had the opportunity to work at Manchester alas it never happened, so I would say to the Manchester guys and girls "Accept the inevitable" and dont think that the management are concerned about your feelings and/or family concerns because they are not, their only concern are the monies that will be saved. Enjoy the experience of your remaining time at Manchester and the comradeship of your colleagues. In conclusion, I was very reluctant to move from the London area to rural Hampshire, but three years later I can honestly say it was the best thing I ever did.

[DangerousD]

Just a quick comment to the DC10 person, as you quite rightly put it you and many others wanted to work at Manchester. I and many others would love to work in sunny Hampshire. None of us have been successful. This surely makes a mockery of being a mobile grade, if you are only allowed to be mobile when the company forces you to be.

[Arran's view]

My view of what has happened to you ? The decision to move was made over 2 years ago. Keith Robinson and following managers ignored reality and allowed the belief that it would never happen. It was going to, it is going to.

How many will actually go to Canada or other non NATS places remains to be seen. My bet is less than 10%

We wait and watch with interest for the terms and conditions of the move.

[bagpuss lives]

I think we'll be approaching that 10% before not too long.

[qwerty2]

Don't become a betting man Arran.

[Mahaba]

Your 10% doesn't seem to equate to what we are seeing on a daily basis with ATCO's testing each other on their breaks on the NAVCANADA assessment papers, it is now more widely read on the unit than our own MATS, believe it...people are now planning the move and have been for a while, families are organised, assessments are taking place constantly for MACC guys. The genuine feeling here for NATS is that most ATCO's have given up on it and our move is inevitable so we will go where we want to be. Most guys now agree in open that they are going, most agree that their families are going to be very dissapointed if they don't go. DISSAPOINTED.
We believe we will be getting an influx of new trainees over the next few years. Whose going to train them? Not us, those left intend to hand back their OJTI licence. Proof of our point, it's not and never has been about the money. We don't feel as if we're on the poverty line. It's the regrading. the way we've been handled (or rather have'nt), the tearing apart of a VIABLE unit. The ignorance of our managers. The hammering our morale has taken. It is a disgrace that at a unit with 95 ATCO's (that are valued higher overseas than they are here) who will be moving en-masse as a unit to a different country with all the complexity that entails with regard to family, partners, travel, homefinding, etc that we don't even have one HR body based here permanently to answer our questions or help with worries some guys may have. We should have had liaison visits, info on rental accomodation, maps of the area, info on house buying, general help with concerns. We thought that was THEIR job. They have this info.
We are dissapointed and are voting with our feet. BELIEVE IT.
And bear in mind. whatever is left of manchester is heading your way. We have just had our traffic levels anticipated for this summer and we don't know how our overloaded ( filed) sectors will cope. This is heading your way without (we believe) enough people to do it. It WILL in time affect ScOACC/NPC. We will watch the 10% that are left try to manage it. Even if it's only from afar.

And still they're closing us down. :ok:

[055166k]

You've had it too easy for too long.....join the real world. We have RADAR down here, we know exactly how busy you are in the Preston FIR.....ooopps....musn't mention Barton Hall, Antrobus, Hack Green, Eastern, Killard........Gosh! What are they Dad? Well son, they are just some of the units we used to have; they're closed now after the march of progress resulted in a successful transfer process of the people who were grateful to have a job and a good employer. I think the words "customer" and "economy" now feature in the modern equation.

[Mahaba]

Thanks for reminding us of how we're thought of elsewhere.
Enough said.
Good luck.

[AyrTC]

It is sad that so many people feel that they have to go to Canada instead of Prestwick,however the question must be asked if Nav Canada are so good why cant they fill the job vacancies with " locals "?

Ayr TC

[Arkady]

I say this with no axe to grind.

Relocation is expensive for NATS. MACC is going to be closed. The fewer MACC controllers that relocate the cheaper it will be for NATS. They will blame the resultant delays on the "new system", rather than staff shortages.

AND

Training is expensive for NavCanada. The more MACC, LTCC and LACC controllers they can get the more money they save.

[Arran's view]

Mahaba .. I hope you enjoy Gander. Not many of the Canadians do.

The proof is in the action. Giving up OJTI ? 90% of you resigning and leaving the country .... yeah yeah yeah. For years you have buried your heads in the sand and ignored what was blindingly obvious. You are scheduled to close. Now it is a big shock ???

[Jerricho]

I hope you enjoy Gander

Hmmmmmm............way I saw it, those who sat the assessments weren't being offered Gander. And I believe there are even instructors in the college who are considering or are on the move.

[Mahaba]

Gander??????????
Give me strength!!!!!!!!

TORONTO
VANCOUVER
EDMONTON
MONCTON
WINNIPEG.

Got it?...good!

We knew we were closing????????!!!!!!!!!!!

For the last ten...TEN...10!!!!!!!!!!!!!years Manchester controllers have been told all of the below;

"you are moving in 2 years" that was in 96.
"It'll never happen" from the previous GM for the last 9 years.
"If you move it will be to London/Swanwick" for the first 5 years from 92 onwards.
"We may move some to London and some to Scottish"
"if you take these London sectors you will not need to move"
"We have no idea when or if you will move"...
and so on and so on.


Arran.. get more informed before making remarks about what you obviously know nothing of the history of.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
And finally they ADMIT they're closing us down.

[Letsgojetsgo]

Got to say it guys....

If you move to his part of the world, make sure its because you want to be here...If you just want to be in Ontario because its got a better post code than Kilmarnock .......forget it.

[Llamapoo]

My Ontario postcode begins "N0B" :p

I think Letsgojetsgo's right though, make sure your reasons are right for coming out here - it can be awfully tough. Not necessarily on you, but your family too. And don't get me started on the :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: snow (although snowboarding after work last night was fan-bloody-tastic)! :}

[Findo]

Mahaba a curious sort of post. I read it that Arran was saying you were being closed down and that was known some time ago.


I worked in NSC when the decision was made to move you North. Your departed GM knew all about it and was party to the decision when it was made. It appeared in Airway at the time. Our team actually did work on Manchester integration issues, from what I recall, about November 02 so it is hardly news .




Llampoo we crossed posts there. See what you mean, interesting wx :O -

2004/01/29 14:00
CYYZ 291400Z 26017G22KT 15SM FEW020 FEW120 M12/M16 A2986 RMK SC1AC1 SLP122

2004/01/29 14:00
CYWG 291400Z 33006KT 2SM BR FEW230 M40/M44 A3046 RMK CI1 SLP359

2004/01/29 14:00
CYQM 291400Z 25014G20KT 15SM FEW017 SCT035 SCT240 M11/M15 A2907 RMK SC2SC1CI1 SHS S SLP850


2004/01/29 14:00
CYEG 291400Z 13014KT 12SM DRSN BKN060 OVC090 M29/M35 A2998 RMK SC3AS5 VIRGA SLP244

2004/01/29 14:00
CYVR 291400Z 07008KT 12SM BKN007 OVC025 07/06 A2980 RMK SC6SC2 SLP092

2004/01/29 14:20
EGCC 291420Z 28008KT 250V310 9999 SCT024 04/M02 Q1009 NOSIG 99290095


2004/01/29 14:20
EGPK 291420Z 26011KT 9999 FEW020 BKN049 06/02 Q1007

[Llamapoo]

And Thursday was a good day for YYZ.:{ (wish they had a happy skiing smilie too ;) )

[250 kts]

But -40 at Winnipeg. As someone said earlier is it enough to go just to escape NATS/NPC. You really have to want to actually live in that particular area to make it worthwhile I reckon.

[Letsgojetsgo]

I think we're all agreed that the wx may have a bearing on peoples ideas about this country. Don't get me wrong, it's blxxdy cold at this time of the year..but, if you put the right gear on its glorious in the sunshine and there's no rain to speak of. This is a cold country. This isn't Scotland, Manchester or the banks of the Hamble....neither is it a cross between the three

The people are very friendly, the work is different, and therefore
more interesting, and dare I say it a bit more challenging. Far all that, you're in a different country with different way of doing business in most areas of life. It's tough to start- expect that and you'll love it. Good luck guys.


LGJG

[prospero]

In reply to Mahabas post on 27 Jan. I left MACC 4.5 years ago. There were many reasons why but the main one was that I knew that MACC would be closing and I didn't want my kids to have to move schools in their teens.I didn't know when and exactly where but it was obvious that it was going to happen and I don't remember KR or any of the management making much of a secret about the fact that they didn't know when or where either.

I find it laughable that there is so much surprise about it.
MACC has some of the best people I have ever worked with and I am proud to have worked there but c'mon guys you've been in denial for a hell of a long time.
Prospero

[Arran's view]

Well I see it is warming up in Winnepeg now. Summer just around the corner. :ok:

Record rainfall sparks flooding fears
March 29, 2004

WINNIPEG (CP)

Record rainfall on the weekend has emergency officials anxiously watching creeks and tributaries south and west of Winnipeg for possible flooding.

Environment Canada meteorologist Jay Anderson said that if the weekend’s rain had been snow, “it would have been comparable to the ’97 blizzard.”

“It’s getting to the point where the whole watershed is wet, so we’ll be fairly sensitive to further rainfall,” provincial flood forecaster Alf Warkentin said yesterday.

“That would still be bad news if we got rain late this week.”

He said the Pembina River has jumped almost two metres and Shannon Creek, which comes into the west side of Morris, is up 2.5 metres.

“There’s going to be localized flooding,” he warned. “The flood potential in the Interlake is quite significant. Once it warms up, that will be the hot spot.”

Warkentin said many fields have so much snow on them that water has built up and has yet to break through into creeks and streams.

That could come with Wednesday’s forecast of 10 C, he said, though some smaller tributaries could have been near their banks as of last night.

Winnipeg International Airport was hit with 42 mm of rain. By comparison, average precipitation for all of March is about 21.5 mm.

The storm toppled the old rainfall record of 32 mm, set way back in 1878


Mr Antler will be glad he didn't come back to gloomy old Prestwick :uhoh:

2004/03/30 14:20
EGPK 301420Z 12011KT 9999 FEW028 SCT050 14/04 Q1017

[Letsgojetsgo]

Gloomy being the operative word...

[bagpuss lives]

Mr Antler? :confused:

[Fidgell]

Sure Arrans dislexia will sort Mr Antlers (!!!) plight with a wry smile.... Mr Antlers in a better place than you ya pillock :ok:

[bagpuss lives]

And people wonder why some of my colleagues treat the move to join our Scottish colleagues with great trepidation :rolleyes:

[Fidgell]

Here Here niteflight...:ok:

[Eric T Cartman]

@ nitetflight01
We can't offer you much to compare with car chases up the M58, traffic chaos on the Thelwall Viaduct or fumes from Fiddlers Ferry, but you really should pay a visit to Ayrshire - you'd like it, honest ! ;) :ok:

[bagpuss lives]

I'm looking forward to it mate :ok:

Now I'm the proud owner of an officially swanky vehicle it'll be nice to have some sleep during those dark nights when she's all alone outside with only the blinking alarm to keep her company :D

Plus - I'll be able to buy you a pint at last then too Eric ;)

[tug3]

niteflite01

You may well be surprised by the large number of ATCOs at ScOACC without, shall we say, a 'Local' accent.

If in doubt ask some of them what life is like North of Hadrian's Wall. Whatever the response, at least you'll know the source is reliable.

Rgds
T3

[Scott Voigt]

Gee, it was only about 29c here today <G>...

Scott