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LatviaCalling
16th Jan 2004, 05:32
This AP story from CNN. It seems to me from the story that everything you take aboard is potentially dangerous. There are a bunch of consultants that are making a hell of a lot more money than pilots that tell us that. Shoe laces -- come on now. Are we all supposed to wear penny loafers aboard. I do agree with the back door principle which involves catering and maintenance. Hardly any security at all. As far as arming pilots, that's a personal issue in which I don't want to get involved.

---

Corkscrews, walking canes potentially lethal weapons
Thursday, January 15, 2004 Posted: 1:30 PM EST (1830 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Commercial pilot Fred Bates could not board the twin-engine jet he was about to fly from Dallas to Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, until he passed through a metal detector. Airport screeners had to make sure he was not carrying a pen knife, box cutter or scissors.

Yet once aboard, he saw that an elderly passenger was holding a cane -- a potentially lethal weapon.

From knitting needles to ball point pens, passengers still are allowed to bring on all kinds of potential weapons, Bates said.
There are even more things that can be found inside many commercial airliners -- mirrors, ice picks, metal silverware -- that could help a terrorist.

While the government has made changes aimed at tightening aviation security, some experts believe those efforts have focused too much on what passengers are trying to take on board.

Michael Boyd, an airline industry analyst with the Boyd Group in Evergreen, Colorado, said nearly anything from shoelaces to hangers could be dangerous.

"We're fixated on pointy objects," Boyd said. "The whole idea is, we have to identify where the risks are. They are at more than the screening checkpoints."

The Transportation Security Administration, which took over aviation security after the September 11 attacks, has spent billions of dollars to hire screeners and upgrade equipment. But Boyd said little has been done to ensure terrorists cannot get near a plane through an airport's back doors.

Airport workers such as fuelers, mechanics and caterers need to be screened for weapons before they are allowed near a plane, he said. A closer eye needs to be kept on air cargo facilities. Perimeters need to be more secure.

Just last week, the government renewed its warning that the al-Qaeda network continues to show interest in using commercial planes to mount an attack.

The federal agency acknowledges it cannot keep every possible weapon off an airplane, so it has put in place many levels of security, amounting to what it says is a reasonable defense against terrorism: thousands of air marshals, reinforced cockpit doors, electronic screening of checked baggage for explosives, bomb-sniffing dogs to search airplanes.

"There are a million different scenarios that we could drum up or surmise," agency spokeswoman Yolanda Clark said. "The answer is in the layers of security. What can you do with a butter knife when you've got a reinforced cockpit door?"

Still, the vast majority of the agency's aviation dollars pays for screening passengers and their bags. This year, roughly half of its $3.7 billion budget for aviation security is to be spent on passenger screening. An additional $1.3 billion is for baggage screening. Far less goes toward checking cargo carried on commercial planes, training pilots to carry weapons in the cockpit or for other security efforts.

Bates, who is on the pilots' Committee for the Armed Defense of the Cockpit, wants the agency to train and arm more pilots faster than the current pace of about 50 a week. He estimates 1,000 pilots are now allowed to carry weapons. The agency has said it soon will double its classes.

Theodore Postol, a professor of science, technology and national security at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said taking dangerous objects away from passengers does make it harder for terrorists to commandeer planes.

But Postol said planes remain an inviting target and the government should think about how planes can be built so terrorists cannot gain control. Biometric devices, for example, could be attached to the aircraft control system so only authorized people could fly planes.

James Carafano, a homeland security expert with the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation, said the post-September 11 reality is that passengers and pilots will not let terrorists take control of an aircraft again.

"The box cutter scenario would never work again," Carafano said, referring to the method used by the 19 September 11 hijackers "Nobody is ever going to turn their plane over to a terrorist."

Earl
16th Jan 2004, 06:36
What about those duty free bottles?
Could be broken against the seat, much more lethal than a box cutter or shoelace.
Think that everyone is expecting the worse and getting wound up tighter than a 2 dollar watch.

Load Toad
16th Jan 2004, 08:19
Perhaps it is best for all concerned if we just:-

a) Stop flying anywhere or using transport of any kind.
b) If you have to travel, travel naked.
c) Carry no luggage.
d) Have no belongings
e) Cover all sharp items in cotton wool.
f) Live in fear for ever


Time for a reality check I think.

Longtimer
16th Jan 2004, 08:32
I love this quote "Airport workers such as fuelers, mechanics and caterers need to be screened for weapons before they are allowed near a plane, he said. A closer eye needs to be kept on air cargo facilities. "

Picture this, aircraft approaching gate, stops and then security puts ground crew through screening before they can approach the aircraft and commence unloading, fueler arrives and is screened before hose can be attached etc etc etc. :mad:

Koyo
16th Jan 2004, 08:42
Yeah just imagine the delay that would create. As for arming pilot with guns I have to say no. I'm not expert but I believe one 9mm round would be enough to cause hull damage. At crusing height it would lead to deadly decompression. May be a stun gun that shoot out 20 feet would be better. They should start stocking those plastic handcuffs as well.

Airbubba
16th Jan 2004, 09:00
>>Picture this, aircraft approaching gate, stops and then security puts ground crew through screening before they can approach the aircraft and commence unloading, fueler arrives and is screened before hose can be attached etc etc etc.<<

Uh, don't know if you fly internationally but this is exactly what happens in some countries (e.g. India and the Philippines) these days with certain U.S. carriers. The ground staff are wanded, patted down and ID checked before they can board or service the aircraft. El Al has been doing it like this for years now.

nibor
16th Jan 2004, 09:20
I believe that whoever dictates the security requirements in the U.S. should have a closer look at how it is done in the U.K.
I am only going to mention areas which have appeared in earlier posts as this is the only info I have regarding US procedures.
Please correct me if these are the same as in the US.

All passengers, crew and staff go through exactly the same level of screening when passing through security and are all subject to proper search if the metal detector is set off, also random searches are carried out on some of those who do not set off the detector.

All hand, hold, crew and staff baggage is x-rayed and again subject to random searches.

All vehicles are fully searched before passing airside and that includes catering trucks and cargo dollies.

Nothing that is regarded as being a possible weapon is allowed airside. Any tools that are required to go airside are noted and checked on the way out to make sure that they are all accounted for.

Onboard the aircraft the cutlery is plastic and so are the bottles.

These rules are nothing new and have changed very little in the last 10 years. They may not be perfect and there are several reporters that try to make a living by breaching security and publishing their story, but at least security is taken seriously.

As for the comment about things like a walking stick and a shoelace being a possible weapon well anything can be used as a weapon, given time you could probably cause serious harm with a paper cut. The point is that the perceived threat from a knife or gun is likely to scare people enough to gain control over a large group. A shoelace may well be effective in a one-on-one situation in the right hands but it will never quell a group.

The most important thing to remember about security is to use common sense, KEEP IT SECRET. You do not let your enemy know how you intend to defend yourself, all they will do is plan around your defences.

TRF4EVR
16th Jan 2004, 14:43
Subtitle: "Arrogant Americans" admit to problems. Hordes of self-righteous Europeans scramble to find new pejoratives. "We didn't expect this, but we are commited to bitching about America, whatever the cost.", say defiant Europeans. "This game is not over!".

Pointer
16th Jan 2004, 14:53
I have read most of the postings by now and come to one conclusion:

International flights have been screened and check vigorously even before 9/11 and off course there has been some breeches of security BUT the internal Flights (domestic) in the US have been blatantly disregarded. This is and was the major problem.

Let's not forget which kind of flights where attacked!! While they vowed to keep the evil out, it was already amongst them. Clearly the discussions can stop as the non us aviation is being bullied by the Big Brother; it is taking on proportions of 'protectionism' but not against armed enemy's but more of the commercial kind.

Clearly the US has to pay up for up scaling their security (which has been in place with everybody else all over the world, almost then) and to give them an "equal" commercial chance they have to put some pressure on the non-us airlines too!

Pointer

HotDog
16th Jan 2004, 15:01
Koyo says: I'm not expert but I believe one 9mm round would be enough to cause hull damage. At crusing height it would lead to deadly decompression. Believe me, all that would happen, would be a 9mm hole in the fuselage which you wouldn't even notice.

squire
16th Jan 2004, 15:02
PORTLAND, Maine (AP) -- A passenger's flute tucked inside a homemade container triggered the Portland International Jetport's evacuation Tuesday because screeners believed the package could be a bomb.

The jetport, where two of the September 11 terrorists set off on their attack on the World Trade Center, was reopened in less than two hours.

The passenger was allowed to board his flight after being questioned, but without his flute in the container made of plastic PVC pipe. Eight flights were affected and more than 300 passengers evacuated while bomb technicians investigated.

Officials did not identify the flute-playing passenger, who they described as a New England businessman in his 40s and a frequent flyer, because he did nothing illegal.

Portland Transportation Director Jeffrey Monroe said passengers should make sure their carry-on bags don't contain items that could raise a security alert.

"There are a lot of unique things people travel with that do not seem problematic," he said. "When looked upon by a security officer, they may look suspicious."

Groundloop
16th Jan 2004, 16:07
This flute story does not make sense. It would appear to indicate that the flute was in his carry-on baggage, not checked baggage. Therefore why evacuate the terminal? Why not just ask him what it is first?

But then most stories about US airport security don't seem to make sense these days.

Max Angle
16th Jan 2004, 17:55
Picture this, aircraft approaching gate, stops and then security puts ground crew through screening before they can approach the aircraft and commence unloading, fueler arrives and is screened before hose can be attached etc etc etc. Sounds good to me, bring it on. It already happens at a few European airports, a guard stays on the tarmac the whole time and everyone who comes near the aircraft gets a once over with a handheld metal detector.

40KTSOFFOG
16th Jan 2004, 21:25
Found this on the N.T.S.B site. It may help to explain a few things.




TSA Continues Hiring Full-Time Screeners At Three Airports

U. S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Transportation Security Administration

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - January 8, 2004
TSA Press Office: (571) 227-2829


The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is currently soliciting job applications for full-time security screener jobs with federal benefits at Boston Logan International Airport, Amarillo (Texas) International Airport, and Washington-Dulles International Airport in Virginia. TSA will accept job applications for Boston and Amarillo through tomorrow (Thursday, January 8) and for Washington-Dulles until at least next week.

"TSA continues recruiting full-time screeners for select airports," said David M. Stone, Acting Administrator of TSA. "We are working to move quickly to hire highly qualified candidates and get them scheduled for training so they can provide the world-class security and world-class customer service that the American people have now grown accustomed to from TSA."

For information on how to apply, please visit www.tsa.gov and then click on "Employment" or https://tsacareers.recruitsoft.com. For additional information, candidates can contact TSA Recruitment Services at 1-800-887-1895 or TTY 1-800-887-5506.

Full-time security salaries can range from $23,600 to $35,400 depending upon experience, plus locality pay. Federal security screeners also receive federal benefits including health insurance, life insurance, retirement, paid vacation and sick leave

Transportation security screeners' duties include providing frontline security and protection of travelers, airports and airplanes by identifying dangerous objects in baggage and on passengers. Their job is to prevent those objects from being transported onto aircraft by utilizing diverse, cutting edge electronic detection and imaging equipment, as well as using the lessons learned from a concentrated training curriculum.

Candidates need to apply on-line and must meet the minimum requirements under the law. Candidates are then assessed, and if hired, are required to successfully complete 40 hours of classroom instruction and 60 hours of on-the-job training. The entire process takes several weeks.

All candidates must meet minimum qualification requirements established by law including:

U.S. citizen or U.S. national.
High school diploma, GED or equivalent, or one year of security or aviation screening experience.
English proficiency.
Pass a background check.

TSA determines full-time and part-time staffing needs on a case-by-case basis for each airport.

Wino
16th Jan 2004, 23:11
Groundloop asked

Why not just ask him what it is first?

If the person carrying the flute had made it into a bomb and had truly evil intentions, do you think that you would have gotten a useful answer from him?

I suppose we should just put up signs, "All those wishing to blow themselves and everyone else up, please stand in line over here." and then have a seperate sign that says, "All those not wishing to hurt other people" that leads to the rest of the airport.
That will solve all the problems and we can do away with all this silly screening and xray machines and whatnot.

While I agree that modern security is a pain in the ass, Questions like that seam to miss the whole point of the excersize...

Unfortunately, there will NEVER be a 100 percent technological solution to the problem. There are too many things in daily life that can be used or miss used in such a manner as to hurt other people. Unless you want to live in a bunker with no exposure to the outside world...

Cheers
Wino

Dalriadan Archangel
17th Jan 2004, 00:18
Wino,

Have a bit of common sense, mate.

A flute made into a bomb? I do not know what sort of flutes you are used to but to my mind is a musical instrument thats main features are it is a hollow tube full of holes. Surely had the TSA staffer asked to see it then this situation could have been resolved quietly and without the recourse to evacuating the terminal building and affecting eight flights.

There is safety, which I am all for, and there is massive overreaction. Can you tell me which this one is? I will give you a clue it is not answer A.

To talk seriously for a moment, I am not bashing the US or the TSA, I am simply stating that maybe a little bit more common sense would help a great deal.

Wino
17th Jan 2004, 04:21
While I agree that its probably an over reaction, there are limits to the resolution of an Xray machine, also depending on the type of explosives in question, confining them is not required to increase their explosive nature to a high order explosive, as they already high order in their natural state.

IAW, if you fill a flute with with SEMTEX for example the explosive in question is already a high order explosive just laying in a pile on the table, so the only thing you get by filling a pipe with it is a convenient carrying case plus a little shrapnell as well, which you would get equally well from a flute.

However, if you used something like black powder, than you it would probably be insufficiently contained and would simply burn, so a flute would not be a good container for a pipe bomb made from black powder (easy to get buyable in many stores in America), unless of course you simply added flute hardward (valves) to the outside of your cast iron pipe as a diguise for the Xray machine.

Its easy to say "use a little common sense". Infact that was what we were doing on sept 10. What could a blade of less than 4 inches REALLY do after all...

Cheers
Wino

exeng
17th Jan 2004, 04:57
I believe that flutes come apart quite easily, so presumably the the security agent could look inside the instrument.

On the other hand evacuating the terminal is very good exercise for all concerned!


Regards
Exeng

Grandpa
17th Jan 2004, 07:25
Imagine a cello full of semtex Wino.................
These terrorist are permanently escalating.
You have to increase your vigilance.
You are only at Green level, scale A.
You have to reach RED, scale Z.
Come back and report!

Huck
17th Jan 2004, 09:31
You know, a home-made flute case made from PVC pipe, with a pipe cap on each end, would look EXACTLY like a white pipe-bomb. And they (the TSA) were probably shown one in training. Sounds stupid but perhaps they went nuts because it just looked so much like a pipe bomb....

Wino
17th Jan 2004, 12:46
Your right Grandpa,

Just bury your head in the sand, Why not, its just a head start on burying the rest of your body after doing nothing to protect yourself and getting killed.

I understand now, do nothing, nothing at all. and Be proud of doing nothing.... That's the answer. BURY YOUR HEADS DEEP IN THE SAND, and you will achieve nervana...


Yeah, that will work...

Cheers
Wino

Felix Lighter
17th Jan 2004, 13:35
Deadly weapons? The human hand springs to mind!

Perhaps we could trial a padded rubber room/cabins for the lunatics who think up such drivel.

Whatever next....... stop carrying people who need oxygen? Remove fire extinguishers from aircraft.

A more sensible idea ould be to stop people carrying cigarettes in their hand carry. In the last 2 yrs I have had several "LAV SMOKE" warnings..............Far more dangerous than some old bloke with a walking stick of golf club...and some granny with knitting needles.

Better still would be if TSA actually did the job they were trained to do and NOT let passengers carrying ammo on board our planes!

"I dont care if you go up-diddly-up-dup....... youre still a git!" Blackadder

B737NG
17th Jan 2004, 14:00
Folks, I regrett it deeply but times have changed. I still miss the
old days.......
Today anything usual and unusual can be a cover for any
explosive material. So we have to be more critical. And as
the sercurity tries to make us believe it is tighten there are
enough lunaticks around who try to prove it that the system
is not sealed completly and try smuggle anything into the
security area. After that they unpack what they have and
present it to the press who makes a huge story out of it.
Bad times sorry to say but I walk before the boarding as
well thru the cabin and look for left behind suspicious items.
Pre Sept.11.2001 I did rely on the Cabin Crew. Today I give
them additional two eyes to catch something what could be
a dangerous item. I look foreward to retire in 13 Years 9 month
and 29 days........ because those days who I had in Aviation
are not coming back and there is no way to return. Normal
was something diffrent in the past. The future is diffrent and
will be "normal" as per today.
Watch out and be careful, everywhere.

NG

Grandpa
17th Jan 2004, 15:07
Now what about toothbrush, dental paste...
Show us the potential dangers in these "ordinary" items.
Now, every terrorist should know how to use a flute to blow up a plane.
To morrow, they will be able to use dental paste.
They will thank you.

Nigel Molesworth
17th Jan 2004, 18:28
Sorry - you're all missing the point. My daughters play both the flute and the cello (also saxophone, etc.) and believe me, they're pretty deadly at the best of times.
After all, anyone with any knowledge of music would know what composition to play to miss those crucial notes that will set off the explosive....
Now, for real airport security let's decide on an internationally agreed tune/song/composition that we'd expect any musical instrument carrying traveller to play to convince us of his bona fides .....

surely not
17th Jan 2004, 18:55
Surely the point is that by asking the question of the passenger, the trained security staff would have been looking for the passengers reaction and pre empted any attempt to grab the 'dangerous flute'. The flute would only be given to the pax to take apart IF the security staff were already pretty much certain that there was little threat.

Questioning and profiling are very important weapons in the battle against ne'er do wells. The results can be achieved without too much fuss and disruption and most certainly without resorting to panic and hysteria.

Wino, you have made it very clear on various posts that you believe in the 100% belligerent strategy of shoot first and ask questions later. Thankfully most of those involved in the security industry do not share your views.

I have been involved in x2 partial Airport evacuations due to a security alert. It really should only be as a last resort when trained assessors believe the threat is probable. There are so many sophisticated gizzmos available to the security services that should make the need for a full evacuation unlikely.

It seems that the biggest threat is in persons not being able to interpret the info before them, as with the bullets getting through at IAD. Despite the rhetoric from politicians and many on this web site, the staff carrying out the security are not the best financially rewarded staff on the airport. At one UK Apt the girls and boys serving in McDonalds earnt more at one time. That situation has now been resolved. The airlines are at the head of the queue to complain if security charges rise, yet the possible consequences of these staff making an error are phenominal.

On a lighter note someone suggested we should all travel naked to ensure we are not carrying anything dangerous! Drug smugglers have been using various orifices to bring drugs into countries for years. True it would be amazing if someone hid a gun in this manner, but a craft knife might be possible?

POMPI
17th Jan 2004, 20:00
Just a small point, Wino talks about the limits of x-ray machines. I have recently seen a demo of an x-ray machine that was looking at a container. There was a car inside and you could see the threads on little screws that were inside the car ! You could also 'fly' through the container on your screen. This machine and it's baby brothers can differentiate between different materials.
It can also 'insert' objects every now and then to keep the screeners alert - it then verifies it was a test.

Wino
17th Jan 2004, 23:04
Surely not,

If it is so easy, then why don't you go to Isreal and fix all their problems as well? It aint that easy, that's why. What you are proposing is a gross simplification. If someone is trying to blow themselves and the airplane up and has trained modestly for it, your average bloke at security be it isn't going to be able to make a question or two and make it all right anywhere in the world.

The Xray machines depend on there being 3 things to detect the presense of a bomb, You have to have a power supply, a main charge, and a detonator. If the 3 items are not co located they can be missed by the the xray machine. As yet we don't have a fast and reliable chemical test for the presense of explosives, except for dogs, and a somewhat less relaible wipe test that is slow.


I also do not think that I have EVER advocated shooting first and asking questions later, and that is an unfair and typical leftwing soundbite. I do believe that armed guards have their place, but under what circumstances have I advocated that an armed guard SHOOT ANYONE BEFORE THEY ATTEMPTED TO HIJACK AN AIRCRAFT? Those gross mischaracterizations like you just put forth are so typical... Use a good soundbite, but don't actually solve the problem.

The level of profiling that would be required to solve this problem would be breathtaking in its scope. "Sir, have you ever been to Saudi Arabia, Do you speak Arabic? Are you Moslem? Is your name Abrahim? Do you oppose the concept of world trade, are you an anarchist, etc... " and its still wouldn't provide 100 percent coverage. Otherwise ELAL would never have had their skymarshals act in flight... So even the most profiled airline in the world has had them slip onto their aircraft.

As there are a number of reasons that true profiling would never be allowed, not the least of which is a fairness issue, I think you are going to have to do alot better than that.

Cheers
Wino

Techman
18th Jan 2004, 01:04
So then, how many times have EL AL's sky marshalls had to draw and use their weapons?.

surely not
18th Jan 2004, 01:27
Wino,

The instance of the evacuation of a terminal because of a musical instrument could have been handled by talking to the passenger BEFORE evacuating a terminal on little evidence of wrong doing.

I agree that a dedicated terrorist will have been trained to confuse and perhaps succeed in misleading a security agent, BUT the majority of incidents of suspicious items do not involve terrorists, they involve members of the general public whose demeanour would be easily read by a trained profiling security agent.

The operator of the x-ray machine can interpret images of the separate constituents parts and make a judgement call even if the machine cannot make the call automatically.

Yea maybe my comment was a bit harsh, but in most threads you have given me the impression that subtlety isn't your strong point. Not knowing you, I don't know if that is correct, but that is my perception of you from the threads.

I suppose to an American my views probably do appear left wing, but in UK they are pretty Centrist. I do not consider myself to be left wing except in a few views, and these are mainly on taxation issues.

I have also been a sceptic in the past re the questioning of pax and staff but I'm told its main purpose is to weed out the unwitting and innocent more than catching the paid up member of a terrorist organisation.

The resolution of the terrorist problem is not 'one idea solves all'.
It requires profilers, x-rays, vigilance on a day to day level, and Political will on the main level. From what I see we have the day to day level, but the political level is misguided and flawed for as long as it focuses on one side winning all at the expense of the other. Let's face it Israel was born out of terrorism to remove the Brits, but it was negotiation which settled the affair.

BillHicksRules
18th Jan 2004, 04:24
Wino,

Sorry to labour Dalriadan Archangel's point but a flute is a two foot long hollow tube that splits into 2 pieces and since it was being taken as carry on surely a prefunctory inspection of the item would have been simpler.

I have flown several times this last 12 months and witnessed pushchairs and wheelchairs being excused any sort of search or x-ray. This has happened in airports on 3 continents.

I would have thought that this was far more concerning. In all seriousness packing one of those with any sort of explosive would give you a hell of an explosion.

Cheers

BHR

Wino
18th Jan 2004, 13:20
actually I agree with you BHR, Seen the wheel chairs myself, and the powered ones already have the power supply for the detonators...

I am very pessimistic actually. I believe that inspite of everything, and airplane will be brought down, and soon, but that doesn't mean that I give up trying...

Don't have time to go back through the thread, got to go to bed now.

But Surely not, thanks for the partial retraction to get closer to my views...

Cheers
Wino

Flip Flop Flyer
18th Jan 2004, 18:16
See the latest issue of Flight Intl. It has happened a few times, last time was the incident in a US airport (forgot which) where El Al security shot dead a guy who started shooting at their pasengers at check-in. They´ve also spolied a hi-jack attempt, in the air, by killing one and wounding another terrorist. Those are the ones I remember.

One key difference between El Al security and that of any major airline is that of numbers. They also operate under a very different set of circumstances. El Al has a small fleet, relative to major airlines, and sources all their marshalls from the IDF. Undoubtedly highly motivated individuals with a clear sense of mission. How many are they? Well, they "crew" with around 2-4 marshalls on every single flight. according to very un-official information. Could be more, probably not less. Shall we say around 1000, roughly 20 per aircraft? Would majors be able to draw from a similar pool of trained prospects? Perhaps, in some countires. Would they be able to attract similarly motivated staff? Not sure; not many other countries have been physically fighting for their survival for the better part of 50 years. Will they have, and be able to retain, the same sense of mission? Well, El Al staff have almost daily reminders that there are people out willing to sacrifice themselves to kill their countrymen. That is just a tad more motivating than a security level being raised from purple to midnight-blue for the 17th time this year.

Would majors, say United, be able to attract equally trained and motivated staff at the same marshall-to-aircraft ratio as El Al? Nope, not a chance. They might be able to find enough people for the flights Dubya perceives as posing a threat; international flights. Let's conveniently forget where the 911 flights originated from. But it won't just be United or Delta or Air France/KLM or Lufthansa. The sheer number of Sky Marshalls being potentially required simply disqualifies the idea that you'd be able to find staff of uniformly high quality. And in that line of business, a single rotten apple is one too many.

christep
18th Jan 2004, 19:21
nibor wrote (regarding flights from the UK)
Onboard the aircraft the cutlery is plastic and so are the bottles.

Er, what a load of bollocks. There are plenty of real glass bottles onboard most flights to and from the UK. Perhaps nibor's experience is limited to cheap carriers going to Malaga or somewhere similar?

And, by the way, most of the rest of the world has, thankfully, seen the error of their ways and allowed metal cutlery again.

BigEndBob
18th Jan 2004, 20:31
The screening of passengers is not a waste of time because it reassures them that something is being done to make the flights more secure and prevents the more common nut case from going onboard with something he shouldn,t just to make a name for himself.

From recent experience, the security checkers could help themselves. Recently passed airport security where the checkers are constantly having to tell everybody what they need to put on the xray machines.
Why don't they have signs, in several languages explaining what needs to go on the xray machine, ie jackets, shoes, bags, keys, watches, belts etc.
Anything unusual could go through a seperate section for closer inspection.

Having said that they want the metal detectors to go off, proves the machines working and give them a challenge to find out what has set it off.

Remember years ago at BHX wanting to go back onto the ramp to my a/c, everyone, staff etc. had to go through metal detector where they casually threw their keys into a box alongside detector so as not to set it off. Later this practise was stopped as they wanted the machine to go off to make sure it was working.