US admits to flight screening problems
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US admits to flight screening problems
This AP story from CNN. It seems to me from the story that everything you take aboard is potentially dangerous. There are a bunch of consultants that are making a hell of a lot more money than pilots that tell us that. Shoe laces -- come on now. Are we all supposed to wear penny loafers aboard. I do agree with the back door principle which involves catering and maintenance. Hardly any security at all. As far as arming pilots, that's a personal issue in which I don't want to get involved.
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Corkscrews, walking canes potentially lethal weapons
Thursday, January 15, 2004 Posted: 1:30 PM EST (1830 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Commercial pilot Fred Bates could not board the twin-engine jet he was about to fly from Dallas to Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, until he passed through a metal detector. Airport screeners had to make sure he was not carrying a pen knife, box cutter or scissors.
Yet once aboard, he saw that an elderly passenger was holding a cane -- a potentially lethal weapon.
From knitting needles to ball point pens, passengers still are allowed to bring on all kinds of potential weapons, Bates said.
There are even more things that can be found inside many commercial airliners -- mirrors, ice picks, metal silverware -- that could help a terrorist.
While the government has made changes aimed at tightening aviation security, some experts believe those efforts have focused too much on what passengers are trying to take on board.
Michael Boyd, an airline industry analyst with the Boyd Group in Evergreen, Colorado, said nearly anything from shoelaces to hangers could be dangerous.
"We're fixated on pointy objects," Boyd said. "The whole idea is, we have to identify where the risks are. They are at more than the screening checkpoints."
The Transportation Security Administration, which took over aviation security after the September 11 attacks, has spent billions of dollars to hire screeners and upgrade equipment. But Boyd said little has been done to ensure terrorists cannot get near a plane through an airport's back doors.
Airport workers such as fuelers, mechanics and caterers need to be screened for weapons before they are allowed near a plane, he said. A closer eye needs to be kept on air cargo facilities. Perimeters need to be more secure.
Just last week, the government renewed its warning that the al-Qaeda network continues to show interest in using commercial planes to mount an attack.
The federal agency acknowledges it cannot keep every possible weapon off an airplane, so it has put in place many levels of security, amounting to what it says is a reasonable defense against terrorism: thousands of air marshals, reinforced cockpit doors, electronic screening of checked baggage for explosives, bomb-sniffing dogs to search airplanes.
"There are a million different scenarios that we could drum up or surmise," agency spokeswoman Yolanda Clark said. "The answer is in the layers of security. What can you do with a butter knife when you've got a reinforced cockpit door?"
Still, the vast majority of the agency's aviation dollars pays for screening passengers and their bags. This year, roughly half of its $3.7 billion budget for aviation security is to be spent on passenger screening. An additional $1.3 billion is for baggage screening. Far less goes toward checking cargo carried on commercial planes, training pilots to carry weapons in the cockpit or for other security efforts.
Bates, who is on the pilots' Committee for the Armed Defense of the Cockpit, wants the agency to train and arm more pilots faster than the current pace of about 50 a week. He estimates 1,000 pilots are now allowed to carry weapons. The agency has said it soon will double its classes.
Theodore Postol, a professor of science, technology and national security at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said taking dangerous objects away from passengers does make it harder for terrorists to commandeer planes.
But Postol said planes remain an inviting target and the government should think about how planes can be built so terrorists cannot gain control. Biometric devices, for example, could be attached to the aircraft control system so only authorized people could fly planes.
James Carafano, a homeland security expert with the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation, said the post-September 11 reality is that passengers and pilots will not let terrorists take control of an aircraft again.
"The box cutter scenario would never work again," Carafano said, referring to the method used by the 19 September 11 hijackers "Nobody is ever going to turn their plane over to a terrorist."
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Corkscrews, walking canes potentially lethal weapons
Thursday, January 15, 2004 Posted: 1:30 PM EST (1830 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Commercial pilot Fred Bates could not board the twin-engine jet he was about to fly from Dallas to Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, until he passed through a metal detector. Airport screeners had to make sure he was not carrying a pen knife, box cutter or scissors.
Yet once aboard, he saw that an elderly passenger was holding a cane -- a potentially lethal weapon.
From knitting needles to ball point pens, passengers still are allowed to bring on all kinds of potential weapons, Bates said.
There are even more things that can be found inside many commercial airliners -- mirrors, ice picks, metal silverware -- that could help a terrorist.
While the government has made changes aimed at tightening aviation security, some experts believe those efforts have focused too much on what passengers are trying to take on board.
Michael Boyd, an airline industry analyst with the Boyd Group in Evergreen, Colorado, said nearly anything from shoelaces to hangers could be dangerous.
"We're fixated on pointy objects," Boyd said. "The whole idea is, we have to identify where the risks are. They are at more than the screening checkpoints."
The Transportation Security Administration, which took over aviation security after the September 11 attacks, has spent billions of dollars to hire screeners and upgrade equipment. But Boyd said little has been done to ensure terrorists cannot get near a plane through an airport's back doors.
Airport workers such as fuelers, mechanics and caterers need to be screened for weapons before they are allowed near a plane, he said. A closer eye needs to be kept on air cargo facilities. Perimeters need to be more secure.
Just last week, the government renewed its warning that the al-Qaeda network continues to show interest in using commercial planes to mount an attack.
The federal agency acknowledges it cannot keep every possible weapon off an airplane, so it has put in place many levels of security, amounting to what it says is a reasonable defense against terrorism: thousands of air marshals, reinforced cockpit doors, electronic screening of checked baggage for explosives, bomb-sniffing dogs to search airplanes.
"There are a million different scenarios that we could drum up or surmise," agency spokeswoman Yolanda Clark said. "The answer is in the layers of security. What can you do with a butter knife when you've got a reinforced cockpit door?"
Still, the vast majority of the agency's aviation dollars pays for screening passengers and their bags. This year, roughly half of its $3.7 billion budget for aviation security is to be spent on passenger screening. An additional $1.3 billion is for baggage screening. Far less goes toward checking cargo carried on commercial planes, training pilots to carry weapons in the cockpit or for other security efforts.
Bates, who is on the pilots' Committee for the Armed Defense of the Cockpit, wants the agency to train and arm more pilots faster than the current pace of about 50 a week. He estimates 1,000 pilots are now allowed to carry weapons. The agency has said it soon will double its classes.
Theodore Postol, a professor of science, technology and national security at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said taking dangerous objects away from passengers does make it harder for terrorists to commandeer planes.
But Postol said planes remain an inviting target and the government should think about how planes can be built so terrorists cannot gain control. Biometric devices, for example, could be attached to the aircraft control system so only authorized people could fly planes.
James Carafano, a homeland security expert with the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation, said the post-September 11 reality is that passengers and pilots will not let terrorists take control of an aircraft again.
"The box cutter scenario would never work again," Carafano said, referring to the method used by the 19 September 11 hijackers "Nobody is ever going to turn their plane over to a terrorist."
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What about those duty free bottles?
Could be broken against the seat, much more lethal than a box cutter or shoelace.
Think that everyone is expecting the worse and getting wound up tighter than a 2 dollar watch.
Could be broken against the seat, much more lethal than a box cutter or shoelace.
Think that everyone is expecting the worse and getting wound up tighter than a 2 dollar watch.
Perhaps it is best for all concerned if we just:-
a) Stop flying anywhere or using transport of any kind.
b) If you have to travel, travel naked.
c) Carry no luggage.
d) Have no belongings
e) Cover all sharp items in cotton wool.
f) Live in fear for ever
Time for a reality check I think.
a) Stop flying anywhere or using transport of any kind.
b) If you have to travel, travel naked.
c) Carry no luggage.
d) Have no belongings
e) Cover all sharp items in cotton wool.
f) Live in fear for ever
Time for a reality check I think.
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3hr turn time coming
I love this quote "Airport workers such as fuelers, mechanics and caterers need to be screened for weapons before they are allowed near a plane, he said. A closer eye needs to be kept on air cargo facilities. "
Picture this, aircraft approaching gate, stops and then security puts ground crew through screening before they can approach the aircraft and commence unloading, fueler arrives and is screened before hose can be attached etc etc etc.
Picture this, aircraft approaching gate, stops and then security puts ground crew through screening before they can approach the aircraft and commence unloading, fueler arrives and is screened before hose can be attached etc etc etc.
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Yeah just imagine the delay that would create. As for arming pilot with guns I have to say no. I'm not expert but I believe one 9mm round would be enough to cause hull damage. At crusing height it would lead to deadly decompression. May be a stun gun that shoot out 20 feet would be better. They should start stocking those plastic handcuffs as well.
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>>Picture this, aircraft approaching gate, stops and then security puts ground crew through screening before they can approach the aircraft and commence unloading, fueler arrives and is screened before hose can be attached etc etc etc.<<
Uh, don't know if you fly internationally but this is exactly what happens in some countries (e.g. India and the Philippines) these days with certain U.S. carriers. The ground staff are wanded, patted down and ID checked before they can board or service the aircraft. El Al has been doing it like this for years now.
Uh, don't know if you fly internationally but this is exactly what happens in some countries (e.g. India and the Philippines) these days with certain U.S. carriers. The ground staff are wanded, patted down and ID checked before they can board or service the aircraft. El Al has been doing it like this for years now.
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I believe that whoever dictates the security requirements in the U.S. should have a closer look at how it is done in the U.K.
I am only going to mention areas which have appeared in earlier posts as this is the only info I have regarding US procedures.
Please correct me if these are the same as in the US.
All passengers, crew and staff go through exactly the same level of screening when passing through security and are all subject to proper search if the metal detector is set off, also random searches are carried out on some of those who do not set off the detector.
All hand, hold, crew and staff baggage is x-rayed and again subject to random searches.
All vehicles are fully searched before passing airside and that includes catering trucks and cargo dollies.
Nothing that is regarded as being a possible weapon is allowed airside. Any tools that are required to go airside are noted and checked on the way out to make sure that they are all accounted for.
Onboard the aircraft the cutlery is plastic and so are the bottles.
These rules are nothing new and have changed very little in the last 10 years. They may not be perfect and there are several reporters that try to make a living by breaching security and publishing their story, but at least security is taken seriously.
As for the comment about things like a walking stick and a shoelace being a possible weapon well anything can be used as a weapon, given time you could probably cause serious harm with a paper cut. The point is that the perceived threat from a knife or gun is likely to scare people enough to gain control over a large group. A shoelace may well be effective in a one-on-one situation in the right hands but it will never quell a group.
The most important thing to remember about security is to use common sense, KEEP IT SECRET. You do not let your enemy know how you intend to defend yourself, all they will do is plan around your defences.
I am only going to mention areas which have appeared in earlier posts as this is the only info I have regarding US procedures.
Please correct me if these are the same as in the US.
All passengers, crew and staff go through exactly the same level of screening when passing through security and are all subject to proper search if the metal detector is set off, also random searches are carried out on some of those who do not set off the detector.
All hand, hold, crew and staff baggage is x-rayed and again subject to random searches.
All vehicles are fully searched before passing airside and that includes catering trucks and cargo dollies.
Nothing that is regarded as being a possible weapon is allowed airside. Any tools that are required to go airside are noted and checked on the way out to make sure that they are all accounted for.
Onboard the aircraft the cutlery is plastic and so are the bottles.
These rules are nothing new and have changed very little in the last 10 years. They may not be perfect and there are several reporters that try to make a living by breaching security and publishing their story, but at least security is taken seriously.
As for the comment about things like a walking stick and a shoelace being a possible weapon well anything can be used as a weapon, given time you could probably cause serious harm with a paper cut. The point is that the perceived threat from a knife or gun is likely to scare people enough to gain control over a large group. A shoelace may well be effective in a one-on-one situation in the right hands but it will never quell a group.
The most important thing to remember about security is to use common sense, KEEP IT SECRET. You do not let your enemy know how you intend to defend yourself, all they will do is plan around your defences.
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Subtitle: "Arrogant Americans" admit to problems. Hordes of self-righteous Europeans scramble to find new pejoratives. "We didn't expect this, but we are commited to bitching about America, whatever the cost.", say defiant Europeans. "This game is not over!".
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Internal Security?
I have read most of the postings by now and come to one conclusion:
International flights have been screened and check vigorously even before 9/11 and off course there has been some breeches of security BUT the internal Flights (domestic) in the US have been blatantly disregarded. This is and was the major problem.
Let's not forget which kind of flights where attacked!! While they vowed to keep the evil out, it was already amongst them. Clearly the discussions can stop as the non us aviation is being bullied by the Big Brother; it is taking on proportions of 'protectionism' but not against armed enemy's but more of the commercial kind.
Clearly the US has to pay up for up scaling their security (which has been in place with everybody else all over the world, almost then) and to give them an "equal" commercial chance they have to put some pressure on the non-us airlines too!
Pointer
International flights have been screened and check vigorously even before 9/11 and off course there has been some breeches of security BUT the internal Flights (domestic) in the US have been blatantly disregarded. This is and was the major problem.
Let's not forget which kind of flights where attacked!! While they vowed to keep the evil out, it was already amongst them. Clearly the discussions can stop as the non us aviation is being bullied by the Big Brother; it is taking on proportions of 'protectionism' but not against armed enemy's but more of the commercial kind.
Clearly the US has to pay up for up scaling their security (which has been in place with everybody else all over the world, almost then) and to give them an "equal" commercial chance they have to put some pressure on the non-us airlines too!
Pointer
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Koyo says:
Believe me, all that would happen, would be a 9mm hole in the fuselage which you wouldn't even notice.
I'm not expert but I believe one 9mm round would be enough to cause hull damage. At crusing height it would lead to deadly decompression.
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PORTLAND, Maine (AP) -- A passenger's flute tucked inside a homemade container triggered the Portland International Jetport's evacuation Tuesday because screeners believed the package could be a bomb.
The jetport, where two of the September 11 terrorists set off on their attack on the World Trade Center, was reopened in less than two hours.
The passenger was allowed to board his flight after being questioned, but without his flute in the container made of plastic PVC pipe. Eight flights were affected and more than 300 passengers evacuated while bomb technicians investigated.
Officials did not identify the flute-playing passenger, who they described as a New England businessman in his 40s and a frequent flyer, because he did nothing illegal.
Portland Transportation Director Jeffrey Monroe said passengers should make sure their carry-on bags don't contain items that could raise a security alert.
"There are a lot of unique things people travel with that do not seem problematic," he said. "When looked upon by a security officer, they may look suspicious."
The jetport, where two of the September 11 terrorists set off on their attack on the World Trade Center, was reopened in less than two hours.
The passenger was allowed to board his flight after being questioned, but without his flute in the container made of plastic PVC pipe. Eight flights were affected and more than 300 passengers evacuated while bomb technicians investigated.
Officials did not identify the flute-playing passenger, who they described as a New England businessman in his 40s and a frequent flyer, because he did nothing illegal.
Portland Transportation Director Jeffrey Monroe said passengers should make sure their carry-on bags don't contain items that could raise a security alert.
"There are a lot of unique things people travel with that do not seem problematic," he said. "When looked upon by a security officer, they may look suspicious."
This flute story does not make sense. It would appear to indicate that the flute was in his carry-on baggage, not checked baggage. Therefore why evacuate the terminal? Why not just ask him what it is first?
But then most stories about US airport security don't seem to make sense these days.
But then most stories about US airport security don't seem to make sense these days.
Picture this, aircraft approaching gate, stops and then security puts ground crew through screening before they can approach the aircraft and commence unloading, fueler arrives and is screened before hose can be attached etc etc etc.
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Found this on the N.T.S.B site. It may help to explain a few things.
TSA Continues Hiring Full-Time Screeners At Three Airports
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Transportation Security Administration
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - January 8, 2004
TSA Press Office: (571) 227-2829
The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is currently soliciting job applications for full-time security screener jobs with federal benefits at Boston Logan International Airport, Amarillo (Texas) International Airport, and Washington-Dulles International Airport in Virginia. TSA will accept job applications for Boston and Amarillo through tomorrow (Thursday, January 8) and for Washington-Dulles until at least next week.
"TSA continues recruiting full-time screeners for select airports," said David M. Stone, Acting Administrator of TSA. "We are working to move quickly to hire highly qualified candidates and get them scheduled for training so they can provide the world-class security and world-class customer service that the American people have now grown accustomed to from TSA."
For information on how to apply, please visit www.tsa.gov and then click on "Employment" or https://tsacareers.recruitsoft.com. For additional information, candidates can contact TSA Recruitment Services at 1-800-887-1895 or TTY 1-800-887-5506.
Full-time security salaries can range from $23,600 to $35,400 depending upon experience, plus locality pay. Federal security screeners also receive federal benefits including health insurance, life insurance, retirement, paid vacation and sick leave
Transportation security screeners' duties include providing frontline security and protection of travelers, airports and airplanes by identifying dangerous objects in baggage and on passengers. Their job is to prevent those objects from being transported onto aircraft by utilizing diverse, cutting edge electronic detection and imaging equipment, as well as using the lessons learned from a concentrated training curriculum.
Candidates need to apply on-line and must meet the minimum requirements under the law. Candidates are then assessed, and if hired, are required to successfully complete 40 hours of classroom instruction and 60 hours of on-the-job training. The entire process takes several weeks.
All candidates must meet minimum qualification requirements established by law including:
U.S. citizen or U.S. national.
High school diploma, GED or equivalent, or one year of security or aviation screening experience.
English proficiency.
Pass a background check.
TSA determines full-time and part-time staffing needs on a case-by-case basis for each airport.
TSA Continues Hiring Full-Time Screeners At Three Airports
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Transportation Security Administration
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - January 8, 2004
TSA Press Office: (571) 227-2829
The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is currently soliciting job applications for full-time security screener jobs with federal benefits at Boston Logan International Airport, Amarillo (Texas) International Airport, and Washington-Dulles International Airport in Virginia. TSA will accept job applications for Boston and Amarillo through tomorrow (Thursday, January 8) and for Washington-Dulles until at least next week.
"TSA continues recruiting full-time screeners for select airports," said David M. Stone, Acting Administrator of TSA. "We are working to move quickly to hire highly qualified candidates and get them scheduled for training so they can provide the world-class security and world-class customer service that the American people have now grown accustomed to from TSA."
For information on how to apply, please visit www.tsa.gov and then click on "Employment" or https://tsacareers.recruitsoft.com. For additional information, candidates can contact TSA Recruitment Services at 1-800-887-1895 or TTY 1-800-887-5506.
Full-time security salaries can range from $23,600 to $35,400 depending upon experience, plus locality pay. Federal security screeners also receive federal benefits including health insurance, life insurance, retirement, paid vacation and sick leave
Transportation security screeners' duties include providing frontline security and protection of travelers, airports and airplanes by identifying dangerous objects in baggage and on passengers. Their job is to prevent those objects from being transported onto aircraft by utilizing diverse, cutting edge electronic detection and imaging equipment, as well as using the lessons learned from a concentrated training curriculum.
Candidates need to apply on-line and must meet the minimum requirements under the law. Candidates are then assessed, and if hired, are required to successfully complete 40 hours of classroom instruction and 60 hours of on-the-job training. The entire process takes several weeks.
All candidates must meet minimum qualification requirements established by law including:
U.S. citizen or U.S. national.
High school diploma, GED or equivalent, or one year of security or aviation screening experience.
English proficiency.
Pass a background check.
TSA determines full-time and part-time staffing needs on a case-by-case basis for each airport.
Union Goon
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Groundloop asked
If the person carrying the flute had made it into a bomb and had truly evil intentions, do you think that you would have gotten a useful answer from him?
I suppose we should just put up signs, "All those wishing to blow themselves and everyone else up, please stand in line over here." and then have a seperate sign that says, "All those not wishing to hurt other people" that leads to the rest of the airport.
That will solve all the problems and we can do away with all this silly screening and xray machines and whatnot.
While I agree that modern security is a pain in the ass, Questions like that seam to miss the whole point of the excersize...
Unfortunately, there will NEVER be a 100 percent technological solution to the problem. There are too many things in daily life that can be used or miss used in such a manner as to hurt other people. Unless you want to live in a bunker with no exposure to the outside world...
Cheers
Wino
Why not just ask him what it is first?
I suppose we should just put up signs, "All those wishing to blow themselves and everyone else up, please stand in line over here." and then have a seperate sign that says, "All those not wishing to hurt other people" that leads to the rest of the airport.
That will solve all the problems and we can do away with all this silly screening and xray machines and whatnot.
While I agree that modern security is a pain in the ass, Questions like that seam to miss the whole point of the excersize...
Unfortunately, there will NEVER be a 100 percent technological solution to the problem. There are too many things in daily life that can be used or miss used in such a manner as to hurt other people. Unless you want to live in a bunker with no exposure to the outside world...
Cheers
Wino
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Wino,
Have a bit of common sense, mate.
A flute made into a bomb? I do not know what sort of flutes you are used to but to my mind is a musical instrument thats main features are it is a hollow tube full of holes. Surely had the TSA staffer asked to see it then this situation could have been resolved quietly and without the recourse to evacuating the terminal building and affecting eight flights.
There is safety, which I am all for, and there is massive overreaction. Can you tell me which this one is? I will give you a clue it is not answer A.
To talk seriously for a moment, I am not bashing the US or the TSA, I am simply stating that maybe a little bit more common sense would help a great deal.
Have a bit of common sense, mate.
A flute made into a bomb? I do not know what sort of flutes you are used to but to my mind is a musical instrument thats main features are it is a hollow tube full of holes. Surely had the TSA staffer asked to see it then this situation could have been resolved quietly and without the recourse to evacuating the terminal building and affecting eight flights.
There is safety, which I am all for, and there is massive overreaction. Can you tell me which this one is? I will give you a clue it is not answer A.
To talk seriously for a moment, I am not bashing the US or the TSA, I am simply stating that maybe a little bit more common sense would help a great deal.
Union Goon
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While I agree that its probably an over reaction, there are limits to the resolution of an Xray machine, also depending on the type of explosives in question, confining them is not required to increase their explosive nature to a high order explosive, as they already high order in their natural state.
IAW, if you fill a flute with with SEMTEX for example the explosive in question is already a high order explosive just laying in a pile on the table, so the only thing you get by filling a pipe with it is a convenient carrying case plus a little shrapnell as well, which you would get equally well from a flute.
However, if you used something like black powder, than you it would probably be insufficiently contained and would simply burn, so a flute would not be a good container for a pipe bomb made from black powder (easy to get buyable in many stores in America), unless of course you simply added flute hardward (valves) to the outside of your cast iron pipe as a diguise for the Xray machine.
Its easy to say "use a little common sense". Infact that was what we were doing on sept 10. What could a blade of less than 4 inches REALLY do after all...
Cheers
Wino
IAW, if you fill a flute with with SEMTEX for example the explosive in question is already a high order explosive just laying in a pile on the table, so the only thing you get by filling a pipe with it is a convenient carrying case plus a little shrapnell as well, which you would get equally well from a flute.
However, if you used something like black powder, than you it would probably be insufficiently contained and would simply burn, so a flute would not be a good container for a pipe bomb made from black powder (easy to get buyable in many stores in America), unless of course you simply added flute hardward (valves) to the outside of your cast iron pipe as a diguise for the Xray machine.
Its easy to say "use a little common sense". Infact that was what we were doing on sept 10. What could a blade of less than 4 inches REALLY do after all...
Cheers
Wino
Mistrust in Management
Wino
I believe that flutes come apart quite easily, so presumably the the security agent could look inside the instrument.
On the other hand evacuating the terminal is very good exercise for all concerned!
Regards
Exeng
On the other hand evacuating the terminal is very good exercise for all concerned!
Regards
Exeng
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Overreaction? Not at all!
Imagine a cello full of semtex Wino.................
These terrorist are permanently escalating.
You have to increase your vigilance.
You are only at Green level, scale A.
You have to reach RED, scale Z.
Come back and report!
These terrorist are permanently escalating.
You have to increase your vigilance.
You are only at Green level, scale A.
You have to reach RED, scale Z.
Come back and report!
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You know, a home-made flute case made from PVC pipe, with a pipe cap on each end, would look EXACTLY like a white pipe-bomb. And they (the TSA) were probably shown one in training. Sounds stupid but perhaps they went nuts because it just looked so much like a pipe bomb....