American controllers and airports

[Jim Morehead]

I am a Yank and flew for a US Airline until 2003. Now I fly for a non US airline from China and get back to the US fairly often. In addition, I fly my own Piper Dakota.

Now that I get to the US less and have a different call sign,I often find the responses somewhat different. I am not sure why.

TO put it in perspective,I have a number of controller friends and there are some great controllers through America and throughout the world. In fact on another PPRUNE forum was a guy named Mike fro Ft. Wayne.

I have to say that Americans often are not very accomodating and I am not sure why. Maybe it is the workload and maybe it is just culture.

When I fly my own airplane I often get treated as an amatuer and bsically get "bossed" around as if I am some skid row bum. In two days at a FLL Airport,it has been hassle. Yesterday when I landed, I helped the controller by making a turn off of the runway to expedite his traffic. Then I sat for :10 waiting to cross the runway that I landed on. Crossing the runway takes 10 seconds in a light airplane. I sat and sat.

In the past, other controllers have said,"Plan to cross behind landing traffic or Get your power up. You are crossing right after landing traffic passes". That would have been the end of it. But NOoooooooo. There were landings and departures even minute and I was the lowest priority. So I forgot about it.

Today at the same airport, I am 15 West on the final doing 120 which is a reasonable approach speed. My landing speed would be anywhere between 60 and 80. I could do what they wanted. There were two business jets behind me and I was yanked off of the final to give"way to them". Maybe they used more JetA or something,but in the US, it is first come, first served. At least I thought so.

In the last few months I have witnessed more unfair and surly attitudes and I am not sure why.

I am not sure how many on this forum are Americans and how many of you fly to or within America.I sure am growing disenchanted with my country's controllers recently. Is something going on or what? I'll be happy to give you more example with big or little airplanes.

[FWA NATCA]

Jim,

I can understand your frustration, and yes we have controllers that arrange their sequence by airspeed so when someone fast pops up on final they yank the slow guy out, I call this the "I can't sequence syndrom".

As for being stuck waiting to cross, the FAA has been killing us with rule changes and saying to a pilot, "plan on crossing behind the lear on short final", will result in having management pulling you into the office for some counseling, it's a definite NO, NO.

Whenever you get a chance the next time see if you can stop by the FLL tower and talk to the NATCA Facility Rep. Often just discussing the problems with the controllers will resolve them. Now if someone is being rude and obnocious then call the facility during normal hours and talk with the manager.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Jim Morehead]

Mike...Thanks for the message and I hope you (singular and lplural) realize I am not on the verge of throwing myself in a spinning propeller!

Is a lot of this pressure on controllers these days that didn't exist years ago? I started flying in 1966 and soloed at FLL Exec which is exactly where the incidents happened. I knew controllers in the non-federal tower 28 years ago and a few of them have remained as best friends since then. Today the FAA owns it. I tried to do everything as asked and got screwed. In the instant case, I made a right turn on an intersecting runways to expedite traffic. Then I got screwed waiting to cross the runway that I landed on. I could have been Mr. Dumb ass and just landed, taken my time, and then made the left turn....But I didn't and then it took a congressional amendment to cross. It cost me a lot of time and money to cross a runway which took 10 seconds.

I still don't understand why if an airplane faster than me by 20 kts is cruising behind me and I am some 7-8 miles from the airport why he gets priority. It was never like that. Obviously you can't fly a 40 kt CUB into a busy airport and not expect to get moved or jacked around. But I called 15 miles west,waited my turned and actually did what the controller said and moved north of the localizer to accommodate the faster traffic. Then she asked me to return to the localizer and then decided there was MORE traffic. SO she asked/TOLD me to go south of the localizer to once again accomodate some rich kid in his jet while I burned gas and took time. The entire cost/time burden was on me.

We are talking about a fairly busy GA airport now and MIA APP should have factored this in when they vectored the airplane towards the reliever airport.

Had this continued, I never would have landed!!!!! I did get down to fuel within an hour and it was not my fault. I am worried that a student/private guy would have just succumbed to ATC instructions and could have run out of gas while the fat cats headed for the runway and the beaches.

If I sound cyncial, I am. Av iation is first come first serve in America and the other guys could have waited or slowed also.

I also volunteered to use the intersecting runway with a bigger crosswind and my offer was not accepted.

Mike...Not sure I mentioned that it was FLL Exec. I used to spend HOURS in the non Federal tower there on top of Yankee Stadium and caught baseballs up there. So it is home to me.

Also,while this was going on,there were numerous departures and arrivals. I just didn't happen to be one of them. The Dakota is FAR from the slowest airplane on the earth.

[wlatc]

Jim,
The story you relate points to an issue we deal with in training new controllers in Approach Control - sequencing "snails" in with jets on final. The first thing we try to get trainees to understand is speed differential on the final. If I have an A/C such as a Dakota who'll average 90kts or so once inside the marker (5mi), that means it will take him a bit over three minutes to fly that last 5 miles. If I have a jet behind doing about 150kts, he's overtaking at a mile a minute, so he'll gain 3 miles on the Dakota. If the Dakota is at 5 miles and the jet is at 8 miles, the jet will bump into the Dakota over the threshold. If we're talking IFR seperation, that means I need the jet at 11 miles when the Dakota is at 5 miles.

With me so far?

Now, put the Dakota at 10 miles out. He'll average a bit higher speed, so say it will take him 6 minutes to get to the field. My jet, also a bit faster, will gain at least 6 miles, so I have 10mi + 6mi (for the intercept) +3miles seperation = 19 miles. (Most localizers are flight checked to 18 miles, btw). This really ties up my final, I'm sure you'll agree.

The solution is simple: Don't let the Dakota sit out there on a long final. Bring him in parallel or at an angle. Pick his slot, then "tuck him in" at the last moment. Meanwhile, let the fast guys blow on by!

So that's what's being taught, at least here in the Caribbean, and some controllers have a better grasp of it than others.

As to controller's attitudes, I think a bit of the tension you note on frequency is indeed due to changes that have taken place in the past few years. Just as going to the airport and climbing in a big jet for a trip to grandmother's house is just not as fun now as it was a few years back, working traffic is less fun too. Of course there are the often mentioned reasons: short staffing, some facilities underpaid, management that is no better that back in '81, new technology that often causes more problems than it's worth and on and on. I get the feeling that lots of controllers who have been hacking away at it for about 20 years now are getting tired. Remember, we've never had so many "old dogs" working traffic as now - another result of the '81 strike. A much higher percentage of controllers are now beginning to look seriously at the day they'll retire and perhaps some days they just feel "I've had just about enough of this ****."

That being said, however, I don't think you'll find any band of ATC professionals anywhere in the world who do a better job with what they have to work with than USA controllers. Sit in at Atlanta or Chicago, or any American facility, to watch controllers at work and you'll come away with a sense of respect and awe for what they do. They're pretty remarkable and a true national resource!
Rich

[vector4fun]

Jim,

Two things I will comment on.

First, there is no such thing as "First come, first served" any more at busy airports. It's "Most efficient", which basically means the most planes in the least time. The Sentence in the 7110.65 says:

Provide air traffic control service to aircraft on a "first come, first served" basis as circumstances permit, except the following:

As you noted, a Piper Cub on a 10 mile final could seriously disrupt the flow of biz-jets into an airport, so does a Cherokee, and even an old Citation. It's just a matter of degree. I understand your frustration at being moved out of line when you were doing 120 kts. I can recall being vectored off the final repeatedly at busy airports in the '70s while flying a Beech Sierra at Full Throttle .:D It isn't a new phenomenon.

Put another way, you're 5 out doing 110-120 kts, so the fellow behind needs to be about 5 behind you doing 145 kts, and the fellow behind him therefore needs to be 5 more miles out doing 170, and the fellow behind Him needs to be another 5 miles out doing 200 kts or so. So now you have a 20 mile final that's only got four airplanes on it. This to allow for "compression" as the aircraft nearing the runway must eventually slow down to land. (We try real hard not to have jets doing Vref 20 miles out, as the howls of protest get quite loud, rightly so.)

Jim, you cannot Survive working a busy finals position with limited airspace if you can only get FOUR aircraft on a 20 mile final, though such a sequence might work just fine during slower periods.

Then there are some other factors which come into play, such as airport layout, (are they using closely-spaced parallels, same runway for departures, or another, etc.) Winds, and whether visual or instrument approaches are in use. Just yesterday, I was working ILS approaches with 25 kt headwinds at the surface. Compute the spacing required when a Cherokee is only doing 60 KNOTS groundspeed from 7 miles out. (that's SEVEN minutes + to land and clear the runway) It's ugly. It happened several times yesterday. And don't forget, in the exact same conditions, you're being fed arrivals on downwind that are doing 280 kts over the ground. (210 kts IAS corrected for TAS and tailwinds, plus a nominal cockpit "fudge factor".)


The second thought I want to leave you with is that South Florida is at the PEAK of it's travel season, and the last week we've gotten almost daily flow control restrictions to FLL, among others. So some of those "Fat Cat" biz-jets that passed you on your 5-10 minute vector delay had in fact been delayed by an HOUR or more on the ground at their departure airport before takeoff. That's not a joke, I worked the Tower last Thursday, and some of the delays to FLL were that long.

I hope you don't take this as a "flame" directed at you personally. I'm just trying to explain "our side" of the picture.

[FlyingForFun]

Obviously you can't fly a 40 kt CUB into a busy airport and not expect to get moved or jacked aroundAh - fond memories of taking a Super Cub into an international airport a couple of years ago, and being vectored onto final about 5 or 6nm out. Was asked by ATC to keep my speed up because of an A320 behind me, but 100mph seemed very fast on final! Eventually, the controller gave up - but since the airport in question had parallel runways, they just had me side-step to the other runway, and the Airbus passed alongside me about a mile out.

Sorry - that doesn't help answer your question at all, but it gave me a good oportunity to dig up some memories!

FFF
-----------

[FWA NATCA]

There is an easier formula to use for final spacing a faster behind a slower acft.

Look at acft #1 speed (assuming this is the slower acft) the slower acft doesn't necessarily have to be the first acft in the sequence.

If the following acft is twice as fast on final: You need two times the distance to the thresshold plus three miles.

If the following acft is three times as fast on final: You need three times the distance to the thresshold plus three miles. (and so on, but you get the geist of the formula)

The plus three miles is to maintain IFR spacing on final.

Since I get to sequence F16's behind Cessna's and Cherokees then you can imagine how much fun it is to space four times the distance on final.

The challenge is seeing that huge gap on final and not trying to stick someone in it, and then going ah crap.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Jim Morehead]

WLATC...thanks for the message and a couple of pther good posts to keep me busy while I cool down <bfg>!

I still think I got screwed two days in a row. Maybe next time I should volunteer for anything and just pretend if Mr. Student pilot and ask for progressive taxi and say "say again" as I cruise for the outer marker in!!!!


But to the issue, that was a good post. IN FLL area, MIA APP sequences airplanes and maybe they just keep shooting airplanes at the airport and let local sort it out. BTW, nobody asked me what speed I was doing or what I could do. I could have maintained 120Kt to a 1/2 final and the Citation could have slowed a little. I was expected to take the biggest hit of them all.

As an aside, I find that ATC (mostly center) when they see a speed conflict, the ask airplane #1, "what is your speed?" Then they slow airplane #2 down to airplane #1's speed. Rarely do they ask #1 to speed up. The usual thing is airplane #1 is paying attention and know he is the speed bump or he could go a little faster and a Captain may be letting the F/O fly at his pace. Some companies pay by flight time and I know some people fly slower just for that reason. Anyway, some in ATC are problem fixers and others like to play policemen and just sort out the traffic from running into each other. That isn't meant to incite and often ATC doesn't have time. But I could have done more in the instant case had the controller accepted my offer to land on another runway or keep my speed up. They just thought I was some beginner and anybody who flies an airplane under 10,000 pounds if going to slow to 60 kts. 10 miles out.

I find it interesting too that one poster says that avaiation is not first come, first served anymore.

A few days ago at Key West, there were 4 airplanes waiting for take off. They were all destined for FLL and MIA and places with flow and release times.

On taxi out I saw the problem and asked if I could go at an intersecting taxiway and take off immediately. The answer was yes,but I had to suggest it. Had I continued fat , dumb, and happy, I would have sat in the same line. Are controllers today NOT allowed to suggest alternatives? EYW is about 5,000' long and the intersection may have reduced it to 3500'

On the last point, I have sat in some 30 US towers and probably 20 APP/DEP control facilities all prior to 9/11. I don't think we can go there any more and possibly never again. Ideas???

Maybe like pilots controllers come in differing abilities.

I had a friend at MIA that was a working excellent supervisor (are all supervisors good at working traffic???). One day I came in in a 757 and they were landing west. More of a joke I asked for 9R and a short approach. My friend knew me for almost 30 years at the time and we would use that lingo in FLL. He said, cleared for a visual to 9R and make short approach!!! To my amazement, he made a whole and the rest of the airport was using 30 and 27R. I landed, taxied in and to this day nobody could figure out how I got 9R!

I have very fond admiration for controllers and I guess when I see a performance that is not good, I wonder why. Maybe there are many reasons.

Vector4 fun...Are you in MIA APP and I certainly don't take it personally and I thank you for your answer.

I know what you are saying about FLL and South FL being at peak. The customs wait at FLL Exec was over a hour and there were 7 lined up. The ground guy was frustrated because the arriving aircarft couldn't understand why they couldn't go straight to customs. I suppose Customs may have been at a heightened alert with the terror level and the post 9/11 situation.

Lemme ask the controller guys this:

If the speed issue is critical, then wny not direct airplanes who will eventually have a final approach speed (last 3 miles) to downwind positions or overheads to kill time. In the case of FLL EXEC, I thought the controller was simply pointing out FLL Int'l arriving traffic and not MY traffic or the one that was taking my spot<bfg>. If those under 100 kts. were not allowed generally to make straight in approaches, then this might help the problem.

Those in Florida or who work at Florida facilites know that a lot of traffic comes from the west on predominantly east west runways from Tamiami to Palm Beach.

Also for those in South Florida, it is intereting on the 1 day from south to north and north to south to the Keys that some controllers required me to be off shore and others required me to remain clear of the 1500 foot level even further offshore. Is there a rule or just judge? They set the altitude of 1500 or below.

[Findo]

If I may just ask a European question of the pilots who just lurv the ATC in the US. :O


How come you guys listen to all the non standard, conversational, R/T all day long in the US and never miss a call and yet you travel in Europe and we almost have to launch Air Defence aircraft every day because you won't reply on the R/T ?

[Scott Voigt]

Hi Jim;

The first come first served is something that we strive for in moving traffic, however at the busier airports the rule is to get as many aircraft on the ground as you can in the most efficient manner. That makes getting slower aircraft into the busy airports a bit of a challenge that sometimes is rather daunting due the sheer numbers of aircraft that are arriving and the limited amount of airspace for a particular airport. In the case of FLL they are indeed busy and have been experiencing traffic flow management delays due to the congestion.

Now as to treating you as you say like a low time pilot, we don't know the levels of expertise in each aircraft and have to sometimes make some assmptions which aren't always accurate about what a pilot can and can't do. Some of these assumptions are also caused by a controller having tried to make something work with a particular type of aircraft or company and recieved a ramming of the most uncomfortable type in a generally lower rear postierior area. Controller then decides that they aren't going to do that again. <shrug> Not good for the rest of the good pilots out there, but once burned, it is hard to gain trust again and you just play it safe, which as a Safety Rep, I can not fault any controller on. We are paid for safe and the rest of the stuff is a by product of what we do and enjoy doing, that would be moving as much metal we we possibly can.

For the Center stuff asking for speeds, most of us know what the norms are for the types of aircraft. If the aircraft is doing the norm, then we are normally not going to ask for more and will slow the other one down a bit. Sometimes we don't slow the front one down due to it trying to climb and with the advent of the RJ's of every ilk out there, we can't afford to get any less of a climb rate out of them. If we asked for more speed, we would have to have them do a dippsy doddle to get going <G>. They just don't have any preformance to speak of...

You have probably figured it out already, but it isn't going to get any better here. We are fitting more and more aircraft into the system and there is only so much that you can do with limited runways and airspace, something is going to give. If you think it is fun now, just wait until all those little personal barbie jets come out that are going to be having somewhat low time pilots flying... It is going to a real joy <G>.

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman

[West Coast]

Findo
I think flying over here must be rubbing off on your pilots. Nothing like hearing Speedbird accepting a taxi clearance at LAX with numerous taxiways involved by answering "roger"

As an end user I am overall happy with the service I receive. I do cringe when I hear controllers who seem to hate pilots and convey that with attitude.
What I do see from time to time is not comprehending how intergrated the system is. A few months back we were held down to FL230 for a looong time. It was for traffic, so no heartburn. It did however eat up most of the contingency fuel trucking along so low. Nearing the destination we were told we were number one in the conga line and max forward and dropped to an intermediate altitude. We simply couldn't do the max forward down low again and land with a comfy reserve. Had to decline to which you would have thought we had stolen the Christmas presents from the orphanage. I of course don't expect him to have knowledge of what happened a thousand miles, a dozen frequencies and 3 or 4 centers before. I just don't feel I need to answer in paragraph form why I have to decline a clearance. A simple "unable, not enough fuel" should suffice.

[Jim Morehead]

Steve-Findo and Y'all

First let me say thanks for an interesting thread and no off-the-wall answers. They are appreciated.

I actually think if the lday who jumped all over me last week and I were sitting in a bar (I hope I am still o.k.) that we could have talked it over and she would have told me her reasons for doing what she did. Maybe she had had some problems with Cessnas or Cherokees or one particular flight school or company.

Also, the Dakota in the Piper line is far from the slowest airplane on the block. I suppose if one uses a call sign of Cessna you could be a 150 or a Citation!

Do controllers actually have problems with one company versus another? So as not to incriminate anyone currently working, do people have problems with UAL,AA,USAIR, or Northwest or any particular company as being very cooperative or very uncooperative in general?

Also I never realized that anybody in Europe had trouble with an given nationality like the US guys. Many times a high pitched voice of a female is hard to understand(I'm in trouble now) ,but in almost every place in the world I have not noticed any controllers from any one country to be harder to understand than others. Often you have to say, "say again". I will say some controlelrs want immediate answers immediately otherwise they call again.

For the controllers...does it drive you crazy when airline or Civilian XXX says,"XXX123 request". Airline 123 go ahead. Airline 123 requests 350. Airline 123 climb to and maintain 350.

Couldn't this entire diatribe been done intially by the airline 123 and asked for 350?After all, this isn't Flight Service who generally want to establish a contact first before they start considering your request.

For west coast and anybody in California...(hard to know who is reading,but it is agood exchange).

Do you remember about 30-45 days agao when it rained, hailed, and sorta snowed in LAX? LAX closed for a while and the schools closed the next day and it was an very unusual weather day in LAX. We were coming from TPE and headed to LAX. We went by SFO which was clear (unusual) and LAX was the problem. We had a paper alternate of ONT and the Company did not want us there. Their choice was SFO where we fly daily. We came down the CA coast and the controller just acted as it was "no big deal" even though we had received messages from dispatch that LAX had "closed". Well, it had throughout the day and was open for anyone with fuel to come in and land. I asked if there were any holds between SFO and LAX and whether the LAX was really closed. It was a cynical answer and it certainly did not give me a warm, fuzzy feeling. The truth was we couldn't cruise down to LAX, Hold, consider ONT, make a go-around, and then head to SFO which was clear. I could do maybe 2/3rds of those.

We were given 250 kts. from SFO and that light a light. SO I asked about holds. The answer was no holds. I asked about whether it was 250 to LAX. The answer was probably.

Then out of the blue it was, "resume normal speed". Well that was MACH .86 or some 330. I just said that I didn't want to accelerate to this speed and then hold nor do 160 kts for the last 50 miles. Just the FACTS MAM.

Eventually, it was go fast. O.k. Great. then the next SECTOR (really) gave us 250 KTS and that is what started to worry us which was confidence in the system. About that time we came to the realization that it was not possible to get accurate information and the chances of getting on the ground and keeping SFO OR ONT were qauestionable at best,so I asked for a 180 degree turn to SFO. The guy assumed I knew every intersection in CA! Well I knew most only because of my past life. It was a true goat rope back to SFO and it was busy all of the way. It was a wise choice to divert. When the parties aren't sure nor comfortable on irregular operations nights,then you can't take chances.

Again, I appreciate those readin' and writin',but I wonder how the US is going to go to any type of FREE FLIGHT which was proposed years ago and doesn't appear to ever be possible in our busy environment. Controllers will have lifetime job security!!!!

[vector4fun]

Hi Jim,


Vector4 fun...Are you in MIA APP and I certainly don't take it personally and I thank you for your answer.

No, I'm not in MIA, but in Texas, not too far from Scott.

Lemme ask the controller guys this:
If the speed issue is critical, then wny not direct airplanes who will eventually have a final approach speed (last 3 miles) to downwind positions or overheads to kill time. In the case of FLL EXEC, I thought the controller was simply pointing out FLL Int'l arriving traffic and not MY traffic or the one that was taking my spot<bfg>. If those under 100 kts. were not allowed generally to make straight in approaches, then this might help the problem.



Jim, as someone already (I think) said, it's a very good technique to keep your slow VFRs out of the final when busy, vector them to a point about 2 miles offset from the approach end, and then tuck them in any gaps that might develop. Overheads? If you mean military style, that certainly possible, but not many Cherokee drivers know how to fly one properly, or are inclined to. If you meant loiter overhead, again, possible, but likely to generate more than a few nusaince TCAS alerts. But in all those cases, you'd have to have some extensive pre-arranged coordination in place between the approach controller in MIA, and the tower in FLL, so everyone was "on the same page". It's not as easy as it first sounds. But it might be very worthwhile to talk to the folks at FLL and/or MIA to see if there isn't a procedure that might be worked out. I've been at several airports where there were "un-published" shortcuts.

As Scott said, we have to base our assumptions on the "average" Cherokee. To most controllers, a PA28 is a PA28. That's what it says in the flight plan and data tag. We don't often know if it's a -140, -160, -180, or a -235. And the average Cherokee pilot doesn't fly that much different in one than the other, except perhaps in climb. The average Cherokee pilot is not a retired Military/Airline pilot either. So the simple fact is, if the controller doesn't know you, he/she IS probably going to treat you like a "typical" 200 hr, I flew once last month, Private Pilot.

It's true that there have been times when I knew the pilot, I've done/tried things I would have never considered otherwise. I used to know a fellow with a Luscombe 8A who could make it sit up and bark, and he got all kinds of "special" treatment, because I could absolutely count on him. On the other hand, he would also happily loiter at 20 kts GS on a 1 mile final while I launched one departure after another in front of him. He flew for fun and was seldom in a hurry.

It sounds as if you're unhappy flying out of an airport that's extremely busy this time of year, it's approach control is handled by another facility miles away, you're being worked by a controller who might work finals at FLL 4-5 hours a week, but is more comfortable sequencing 757's to MIA, and who doesn't know you from a shiny new Private Pilot. That's quite possibly all true. It's a different world from 30-40 years ago when controlled airspace was smaller, the rules and procedures more flexible, and when the approach control was one or two scopes just below the tower cab. We often knew the pilots by voice and they knew us too. I remember those days too, but there's no going back now.

:( :(

[av8boy]

The guy assumed I knew every intersection in CA! I'm curious about the intersections in question. Could you give me an example or two?

*************

V4F...

...when the approach control was one or two scopes just below the tower cab...I remember those days too, but there's no going back now. I believe you've just described Duluth (KDLH). If you've got a heavy coat, gallons of DEET, and a longing for radio stations that still play the songs you loved when you were 15, it might be the place for you... If you want to go back, consider going north! :O

Dave

[StillDark&Hungry]

One doesn't want to sound too contraversial but a well used saying in this centre is;

"Separated by a common language"!!

Usually used when talking about our transatlantic cousins! (personally I blame the time difference!)

[TRF4EVR]

I really must take exception to the "there is no going back" comment. To the best of my recollection, the air traffic control system is publicly funded here in the US. As such, I expect equal treatment whether I'm flying a 150 or a 747 (no such luck).

Perhaps the airlines need to stop trying to put 300 airplanes on the same piece of concrete within 20 minutes of each other. Naturally, being driven by market pressures, they're not going to do so until someone makes it clear to them that they're going to be wasting an awful lot of fuel when they try it. ATC's customer is the pilot. Not the airline pilot, not the corporate pilot, nor Ritchie Rich and his Pilatus...all of us.

I fail to see what is difficult about recognizing that in the public sector the job description is to serve the public.

I haven't had the dubious honor of trying to swap paint with the "big boys" lately, but back when I first received my "license to sleep in the right seat", I remember doing a lot of ILSes to a very busy Class C. Somehow, the controllers always worked to keep us in the flow, and it usually came out fine. However, I don't lose a lot of sleep over the couple of DC-8s or 747s loaded with consumer electronics that may have had to swing out a couple of miles to let us firewall the old 172RG down to the threshold.

If the airlines need airports all their own, maybe they should build some.

Having said that, I hope no one here will take it as a personal slam. I've got all kinds of respect for the "big boy" pilots...maybe one day I'll be one. And I've been favorably impressed with the expertise, competence, and good nature of 95% of the ATC I've encountered. I suppose what I have in my sights with this little rant is the idea that somehow a controller's responsability extends a bit further for a Sky God with 400 Busy Important People in the back than it does for a Good Ole Boy Bug Smasher. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's no one's call to make.

Best Regards,
TRF

[vector4fun]

I believe you've just described Duluth (KDLH). If you've got a heavy coat, gallons of DEET, and a longing for radio stations that still play the songs you loved when you were 15, it might be the place for you... If you want to go back, consider going north!

Well, you're right, I would have to go north, but only as far as Waco, KACT. :} And if they'd take me as a retired re-tread in a couple years, I might go! :ok:

Actually, the high here was only 38 yesterday, and I darn near froze! As I get older, my preferred temperature gets higher and higher. This Southern boy is about 20 years too old for Duluth!

Today's supposed to be around 45, I'm playing golf in a couple hours, I've got 3 layers on, and my winter golf gloves ready. Brrrrrr!!:ok:

I really must take exception to the "there is no going back" comment. To the best of my recollection, the air traffic control system is publicly funded here in the US. As such, I expect equal treatment whether I'm flying a 150 or a 747 (no such luck).

TRF4EVR,

You might consider that that 747 has about 350 passengers who each paid a ticket tax to fund the ATC system that exceeds the fuel taxes for an hour in a C-150 by a fair amount. I would also submit that the average GA piston single gets service FAR out of proportion to the taxes paid to fund that service. ATC's customer is NOT just the pilot, but the pilots, passengers, and even the freight shippers who pay to use the system.

I can agree with a few of your sentiments, and we WILL try our best to accomodate everyone. But there are limits to what we can do, depending on runway layout and traffic mix. And I'm sure you're aware that the rule book says:

Ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require.

I assure you that quite a few of those "Sky Gods" know the rule, and quote it to our supervisors on the phone from time to time...:)

[Scott Voigt]

Hi Jim;

It pains me to say it <G>, but in the enroute environment, we quite often don't know what the next sector is going to do with you, especially if we are busy with our own problems. We don't take the time to look at the next person who may or may not be in the same area, or for that matter, the same center. We don't know what sort of streams he / she is trying to sequence or if someone just launched two off of an airport in their airspace that are going to LAX and now they have to sequence them with you. The system just isn't to the point that we can do that, especially when you are real busy... TMU can only do so much even with the tools at hand, but being that this is a dynamic system and not static, stuff changes constantly and you have to adjust with that.

As to the bar comment, well most controllers I have met ( here and in other countries ) we do some of our best problem solving there <G>. I have some of the most fun when I am putting on one of our "Raincheck" classes with a room full of pilots all getting to see what really goes on at our level and try to answer the mass of questions that come up. In fact I was getting ready to start up the facility classes again when we went back to Orange due to those inconsiderate terrorists... Hard to do things when the they keep changing the stuff they are telling people <sigh>. Oh well, hopefully we will go back to yellow again in the next couple of months and I can get our classes going...

Do we have some airlines or companies that are noted for great performance and those who are known for not being able to get along? Sure, just like anything else in life. <shrug> We deal with it and get on with life. There is an airline that if you know that you have to make something work, you will pick them because they FLY the airplane <G> and if they say unable, you know that it is physically impossible for the aircraft to perform that way...

As to phraseology. The US pilots are indeed considered some of the worst in the rest of the world. Part of the big problem probably stems from how we do things here. We all speak a form of english <G> and we can sometimes chit chat to get a point across. In other smaller countries they don't have that luxury and stick very nicely for the most part to perscribed phraseology. That makes things run much smoother for both controllers and pilots. We are MUCH more lax here in this country when it comes to pilots sticking with phraseology and it appears to be getting WORSE! I see it as both a controller and as an Aviation Safety Counselor. There are days that we would just be happy as controllers to get pilots to use something as basic as a call sign. You say you hear controllers that sound like they hate pilots? I LOVE pilots but you will hear frustration in my voice after an hour of having to repeatedly get readbacks from PROFESSIONAL pilots due to lack of call sign being used, or just plain sloppy radio work. Then they get pissed at me because I didn't know to assume that it was them talking to me. It does get old and we are doing it for a reason... Ya have to get the info right or bad things can happen, even with something as simple as a frequency change. If the wrong person takes it, then you aren't where you need to be when someone trys to turn you or climb you for traffic.. Enough of that rant <G>.

I hope that this is giving you some insight as to what we do. I hope that at sometime you can go to a formal raincheck program in a facility. Ours is a great program which is very small ( No more than 15 people to a class ) but it gives you both classroom, hands on and a LOT of face to face time with controllers to see what goes on and ask a lot of questions... It's how we all learn more about what we both do. I personally think that ALL pilots going through Capt. upgrade training spend at least one day going through this class... It would debunk a LOT of myths that they many have about both ATC and procedures.

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman

PS. While doing shameless plugs <G>, Communicating for Safety is taking place in Dallas this year, April 20th and 21st. More info on the NATCA BBS...

TRF4EVER;

I see that vector 4 fun already responded... But as he stated quite well, there are a LOT of folks who are paying for the right to be in the air. We try our very best to serve everyone in the fairest way that we can. Shoot, we are probably the best friend that AOPA and EAA have in the govt. We indeed try to ensure open access to everyone and we do our best to ensure that the airlines don't trample the rights of the little guy. Trust me, from the meetings I go to, the airlines would like to see you guys go away when it comes to sharing any airtime. Now, when I say that I don't mean the pilots per se, but but airlines themselves and then some of the associations.

As to the FAA remembering who the customers are. In the larger sense the FAA at the HIGH levels hears from it's constituents all the time through associations like AOPA, ALPA, ATA and a lot of other alphabet groups. They all try to exert pull when ever they can. However at the end of the day, the most pull is by those who do the appropriations or the congress critters. When they say I have heard from XXXX and they are concerned about this or that, then the FAA REALLY listens. I don't know if you have ever taken a look at who does lobbying in Washington DC, but if you haven't, take note of the Lobby that the airlines have with ATA and then the ones that they do themselves. This doesn't count that done by NBAA and private companies. Compared to you and I, we are barely a bump on the road of corporate contributions.

Good luck with getting your spot in line if going to a busy airport. But know that we are going to try to do our best to keep you in the mix and to have the most freedom in flght anywhere in the world...

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Regioin
Safety and Technology Chairman

PS.... Vector 4 Fun, where do you vector at? I am at ZFW

[Jim Morehead]

Scott/Vector4Fun and others

thanks for the comments.

Scott-How long does your raincheck program go on. Its it a day or a few days a week apart?

WHat is the April 20-21 program and what does it entail.

I think it is rotten that we can not visit ATC facilites once people have established their credentials. I hope 9/11 isn't going to be the determinant forever. It's not like they turn a group of terrorist pilots alone with ONE controller who conducts the class and tries to work a little traffic in between <bfg>!They have backups,supervisors, and others to keep our bad boys in check!

Also on the various flying I do, I went to EYW today and talked to Navy EYW and the local guys a KEWY and they were great. I launched from an intersection of a 5000' runway and the ATR Eagle was in position from the end. So there were three airplanes on the runway at the same time. Two in position and one rolling out. I think DAYTIME that is still legal, right? I think because of the LAX USair/commuter nighttime intesection position and holds were eliminated, right?

I understand your thoughts about a PA 28. I fly about 100 hours per year in light airplanes and I rarely have troubles. It just seemed like this week was a little bizarre.

BTW, are cargo airplanes given the same priority as passenger airplanes? It appears that they are not,but again I have to use that bad word of first come first serve. Soooooo, if my 400F taxies as fast as a 400 Passenger, a Gulfstream, a Bandit, A Cherokee and everybody else does that mean somebody should make me be number LAST????

[vector4fun]

PS.... Vector 4 Fun, where do you vector at? I am at ZFW

Hi Scott,

I'm in AUS now. You know, "Swimmin' Pools...Movie Stars" :p

Don Tedrow

aka V4F

[vector4fun]

BTW, are cargo airplanes given the same priority as passenger airplanes? It appears that they are not,but again I have to use that bad word of first come first serve. Soooooo, if my 400F taxies as fast as a 400 Passenger, a Gulfstream, a Bandit, A Cherokee and everybody else does that mean somebody should make me be number LAST????


Hi Jim,

The best, and most accurate answer I can give is that when we get really busy, we give priority to getting the MOST airplanes on or off the runway in the shortest time. The only two operators who get regular priority treatment are AF1, and the Medivac Helos which operate frequently through our airspace. If getting the MOST airplanes in means stuffing a Cherokee into a 4 mile gap on final, we'll do that. But if we've got a string of 170+ kt aircraft lining up for both runways, and no gaps suitable to fit that 100 kt aircraft in, then them's the breaks. I'm sure you can understand it's much safer, more practical and efficient to have a Cherokee doing a 1 mile orbit 3 miles from the field, than it is to have a MD-80 doing 10 mile legs at 3000' over somebody's neighborhood miles away. At my airport, those kinds of "pushes" seldom last for more than 10-15 minutes before some gaps again develop., but there have, and will be days when we have to refuse practice approaches or T-n-G landings for part of the day. To the extent possible, we'll keep the Cargo and many of the airliners on one runway, and GA on the other, but GA all parks on the east end of the field, so Cherokees often still have to mesh with Gulfstreams, Falcons, and Citations. Not even the State Governor asks for, nor receives "special" treatment. He fits where he fits.

:)

[Scott Voigt]

Hi Jim;

Raincheck at my place is a one day class. It starts at 0800 and lasts until it is done <G>. That is determined by the folks in the class. When they run out of questions, the class lets out. It is normally over about 1530 or so. I had one class get out at 1400 but it was a college class that I found out later the professor had forced to attend. NO questions, no interest and I told the professor that he wasn't going to do that EVER again, or he would never get a class there again. I've also had classes go up to 1800 with folks finally being begged to email me with any other questions <G>... Everyone but that one class has always had a great time.

Communicating for Safety is a gathering of line controllers and pilots (more controllers than pilots now.) who get together to listen to issues from some of the leaders in aviation and then after a short presentation get to ask pointed questions of those aviation leaders ( Industry and FAA). It gets quite interesting from time to time. A long time ago there were quite a few more pilots than controllers at these meetings, but we (NATCA) started to get much better at getting controllers there. Now we are working very hard at getting more line pilots there. We want a lot more of their input.

To find out more, you can go to our website www.natca.org and click on the Communicating for Safety logo. That will take you to the Safety website and you can see the agenda and brochure. We hope to have our online registration up and running by next week sometime.

Oh as to credentials and such. When we are Orange, basicly it is only FAA employees and contractors who are already badged and have had a security clearance done on them are allowed in. There are always exceptions, but the tour stuff is something that they are not going to allow. Credentials are too easy to forge anyway...


regards

Scott

[West Coast]

NATCA should try to get access to sim training events. There is usually a spare seat in the back of the sim. Rather than chat about the FAA, stock prices, retirement funds and sports as was the norm when you guys could ride the actual, you can see what happens when things go pear shaped. Line observations are great, but tend to offer little return for the amount of time spent in the seat. Then again most of the obsevations were to either get out of work, or were to cities that had big games that weekend.

[vector4fun]

NATCA should try to get access to sim training events.

Ya know, back around 1990, my Dad and I both happened to be in ATL for a week at the same time. He for some re-current, and me for a meeting, and he tried to get me into the L1011 sim for a bit one evening, but that puppy was booked solid. :*


On the other hand, I got to jumpseat with him for a three day trip in the Tristar, and learned a lot about the aircraft.

I DO still remember getting to play around in one of Delta's Link trainers at ATL back around 1964 or so when I was just a kid! :ok:

Does that count? :p

[FWA NATCA]

West Coast,

Sitting jump seat during a sim is a great idea, it would help us learn how best to assist you during an emergency, and give us an opportunity to ask questions about normal ops parameters (max gear speed, how slow can you really go on final, etc.)

_______________________________________________
Jim,

The Communicating for Safety is normally a two day event (Scott correct me if I'm wrong), with about two hundred attendees. Participants include FAA representatives, NATCA President and Executive Vice President, representatives from ALPA as well as AOPA, and trade booths from various aviation related companies.

The goal is to improve safety through communication. This is a very worth while event and you would probably enjoy attending.

Mike R
NATCA FWA

[Scott Voigt]

Mike;

We were up to 300 people last year and my goal is 400 people this year with the new folks made up of more pilots. I WANT MORE PILOTS there... Of course, I also want more line controllers there from all over the world <G>. It is the best way to get ideas and opinions flowing. Lots of good exchange.

Vectors for fun... We have been trading some training at SimuFlite. NATCA trains the sim instructors on how to be good controllers and how to not make stupid controller tricks, and they take some of our folks on sim rides to show them stuff. Haven't gotten as many folks in as I would like, but we are making a fair dent...

regards

Scott

[mattpilot]

Sorry to interrupt here, but i'll have to get back on the subject, well kinda :cool: .

Do ATCO's make assumptions about a pilots flying ability, depending on how well he sounds over the Radio?

**edit: sorry, sounds kinda vague. What i mean was, do ATCO's try out more things with professional 'sounding' pilots (regardless if a Cessna 152 or a Jet), or do they not bother taking the risk, and then finding out he is not capable of doing it?

End edit**

Btw, sorry to sidetrack here, but since Scott's a regular in this thread, i might as well pose a question which is kinda related to the 'No-practice VFR/IFR approaches'. I don't know if you remember Scott, but about 1-2 years ago i asked you something about Tulsa's/Riverside's airspace - and if i remember correctly, i think you said you were in charge, or 'overseeing' that part of the system. Anyway, you might know whats going on. Last few days, Tulsa's primary radar was/is out of service. And it was being said that ATCO's would not accept any requests regarding VFR/IFR practice approaches within Tulsa Airspace. How so? Since Secondary Radar was still working and you would need a transponder code anyway to do those operations, what has changed because of the primary radar not working?

Thanks for any feedback! :ok:

[vector4fun]

Do ATCO's make assumptions about a pilots flying ability, depending on how well he sounds over the Radio?

Absolutely!;)

do ATCO's try out more things with professional 'sounding' pilots (regardless if a Cessna 152 or a Jet), or do they not bother taking the risk, and then finding out he is not capable of doing it?

If I understood your question correctly, then again, Absolutely!:D

Perhaps a better way of saying it is, when we hear someone on the radio that doesn't sound professional, we're not nearly as likely to try something requiring more than minimum skill from the pilot.

Last few days, Tulsa's primary radar was/is out of service. And it was being said that ATCO's would not accept any requests regarding VFR/IFR practice approaches within Tulsa Airspace. How so? Since Secondary Radar was still working and you would need a transponder code anyway to do those operations, what has changed because of the primary radar not working?

I'm not Scott, (probably closer to his evil alter-ego), but I think I know the answer to your question. I'm assuming you heard a message on the ATIS or NOTAM to the effect that "Primary Radar out of service. Radar service available only to transponder equipped aircraft, and limited to..." etc. etc.

What that most likely means is that Tulsa Approach is/was on CENRAP. CENRAP is a backup Radar system which lets Tulsa App pull Radar data from another source, usually a Long-Range Center site. They're doing this because their own Radar system is down for some reason.

Now, there's two forms of CENRAP, Full or CENRAP Plus. Under CENRAP Plus, Tulsa would have lost their Secondary (beacon) Radar for some reason, but the antenna is still turning, and they are still getting Primary Radar returns. Of course, that's just the "Blip", without the transponder code and Mode-C altitude. So they're using a nearby Center Long-Range radar site to provide the Secondary Radar data. (This gets a bit confusing) So they've got a local ASR antenna providing Primary data via a direct link to their ARTS system via a cable or Microwave, and a distant ARSR antenna providing Secondary data, at a much slower rotation (update) speed via an indirect link that takes the data from the ARSR site, to the Center, and then back to Tulsa App. And I think, (but am not sure) that's done via modems. In any event, it's slow. So what you see on the radar display is a Primary target that "hops" a small fraction of an inch every six seconds or so, and a Secondary or Beacon target associated with it that lags behind by as much as a couple miles, and only lurches along about once every 20 seconds. We also have to be aware that the Mode-C altitude displayed is some 20 seconds or so "old". Finally, since the Long-range site providing the Secondary data may, in fact, be located many miles away, perhaps 30 or so, then it's not optimally located to see aircraft at low altitudes close to the airport. Result, no Beacon target at all below 2000-2500' perhaps. Now, what does all this mean to the Controller and Pilot? It means the controller can still use normal lateral separation between primary targets, (IF they're adequate), but must use extra separation between Secondary targets and CANNOT use Mode-C data for separation. ("Cessna 345, say altitude leaving.")


If Tulsa was in Full CENRAP, then that means they had no Primary radar capability at all from their own ASR antenna, and a VERY limited amount of Primary data (if any) from the distant ARSR antenna. Now Tulsa App is using the same Radar system that a Center Controller uses, with it's inherently slow update, and without the mosaic capability. (That's the ability to combine Radar data from several sites on one display). PLUS, this data is very OLD data. PLUS, they may not be able to see a thing below, say, the Procedure Turn Altitude. Result? No practice approaches, five miles or more between IFR aircraft, and the Mode-C data is basically just "Gee-Whiz" information, and useless for separation.
:{


Hope that answers your question, and I haven't goofed my answer because it's past my bedtime...:p

[mattpilot]

Thanks for taking the time to write that long answer, Vector4Fun! :ok:

I didn't realize it could get that complicated. Learned another interesting thing today :8 .

[Scott Voigt]

Matt;

What my alter ego said :ok: In the advent of TUL, the ARTCC site closest to it would be in OKC. So you can see that would be a little ways off.

The info is indeed sent via a type of modem and then merged into the approach control systems. Eroute radar is about half the speed of the terminal systems and rotates about every 10 to 12 seconds or so depending on the type radar being used. ( slow indeed <G>, it's what you get used to. )

As to the question about the pilots. You bet that we make some assumptions by voice and how well they use the radio. If they sound shakey we don't try anything other than the basics and don't try to do anything out of the ordinary to make them number one. We will just fit them in as best we can and watch them like a hawk :8

regards

Scott

[FWA NATCA]

Matt,

Using FWA for example, when we go CENRAP, the nearest long range radar site that we can get a feed from is about 45 miles nw in LaGrange Indiana. The trouble is that using CENRAP we have a hard time seeing traffic below 5000, in addition we can not use altitude for seperation during climbs and descents unless pilots are asked to report out of or at specific altitudes.

As you can see working pratice approaches (VFR or IFR) would be extremely difficult, and sequencing VFR's to the airport is even more difficult so we normally do not provide VFR services unless an aircraft is overflying and at an altitude that we can see.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[normally left blank]

Back to the original post, Jim Morehead:

When you actually "helped" the controller and made the fast turn off. Were you forgotten? A supervisor or another controller could have helped here. But I often find controllers very stubborn to accept "CRM" techniques.

Crossing a runway must not become "rocket science".

When approaching in a normally slow aircraft I would "volunteer":

" --- and I can give you 120 till short final"

Most controllers will take up the challenge!:cool:

I'm a little worried about the statements that aircraft with the most passengers get priority.

And hate to admit it: There are great differences in controller ability.

Best regards

[Jim Morehead]

Normally left blank...thanks for the message. I am sure that controllers vary with ability as do pilots.

In the case of how and why I started the thread, it was at Ft. Lauderdale Exec which is a non airline-non military airport and has become an extremely busy GA airport. I soled there 38 years ago. Tehn I used to be able to take off runway 8 and land on 13. Do a touch and go and do a right downwind for RW 8. Take off and make a left turn (at 300 feet) to land on 17...etc.etc. Amazing how many landings one could get in an hour!

But EXEC is busy now.

Next time I'll volunteer <bg>...

At Exec, I did get essentially ignored, I feel. I mean to wait :10 to cross a runway is not right nor fair. Even if they had to hold the guy in position for take off should not have been too much to ask especially after I made the turn to help the controller with a high speed right turn versus a hard ,slow left turn. Even as the departure guy went by me, they could have crossed me because they had to wait for the departing guy to leave before they could launch another.

And I did say that WH was holding short of RW8 at Charlie or whatever the intersection was. He said Roger. After 10 more arrivals and departures, I thought my turn was ready to come up. I asked the controller, "are you sure you have right WH"? He said absolutely. So that was the end of the story.

Back to the big airplane story. For those of you that know LAX, it is a busy place and they have the noise problem (what's new???). They do try to launch west and after 11:00pm or midnight they try to land east and launch west. It usually involves a tailwind on landing during the midnight hours.

But we left the freight ramp in the far SE corner next to 25L. The taxi time was less than 1 minute. 25R had about 10 airplanes leave before us and I know many called for taxi AFTER we called for taxi and even after we were sitting there ready on 25L. I this case, we were a light 747-400F nonstop to SFO at 0100. We had asked ground to confirm we would get and we wanted 25L because it was closest to our ramp. It also would be easier for us.

And a point here to be made that with the electric glass cockpits that it takes some programming to be done,so with the 30 second taxi time we didn't want to change all of the takeoff data once we left the ramp. In fact at my insistance, I asked the F/O to call LAX ground and make sure that we could have 25L. The controller said YES,Plan on it. :20 later we called and the GC sends us to 25R to hold short of 25L. We said we wanted 25L. Obviously nobody was talking to each other or there had been a shift change. Either way, we were given 25L as we planned. We then switched to tower and said Ready for takeoff. There were no arrivals. There were about 2 people waiting on 25R.

We felt like we were being ignored and airplanes continued to call taxi and we were number last. Now I know 25L and 25R are close runways,but is there some reason why they wouldn't launch between both runways???We thought it might be some wake turbulence issue or something. The wind was about 0803 or light and variable. I finally said that if it was a wake turbulence issue that we didn't need any delay. BTW, is a 747-400 subject to wake turbulence from any other type of airplane? Also can a transport category pilot waive the turbulence? It rarely comes up because the controllers are trying to launch airplanes as rapidly (also read safely and legally) as they can and it is the pilot that requests MORE than the controller gives.

But anyway, we sat for about :15 for no apparent reason and no explanation. We couldn't get a sequence. It just struck us that if we had just taken 25R, the lady would have been happier for some reason.

Anyway,if you have some thoughts or ideas,let me know. I get back to LAX from taipei on the 13th, so we will see how it goes.

JIM
P.S.- will I get excessive vectors, speed control, or a holding pattern if any of the aforementioned controllers are working that shift????

[FWA NATCA]

Jim,

Heavy wake turbelance is not wavierable. Tthe 7110.653-9-6 f says: Separate IFR/VFR aircraft taking off behind a heavy jet/B757 departure by 2 minutes. Paragraph h states: Air Traffic controllers SHALL NOT approve request to deviate from the required wake turbelence if the preceding aircraft is a heavy jet/B757.

Now for the 25L and 25R issue. Since FAM's have ceased to exist I see more and more situations like this occuring as well as controllers changing arrival runways with short notice, because they don't know what you the pilot have to do in order to run the numbers for the new runway.

You called in advanced requesting 25L, when you called for taxi and the controller gave you 25R, all you should have to say is, "we coordinated earlier with Ground that we require 25L". Odds are the controller forgot, or forgot to brief the relieving controller. When I have a pilot request for a specific runway, that I as ground approve or said to expect, I write that runway on the flight progress strip so that I don't forget. If the requested runway goes against the grain then I will warn the pilot to expect a delay and if possible how long will it be.

Jim, If you jump over to the NATCAnet Public BBS http://www.natca.net , Click on the About NATCA link, then click on the Public BBS you can post specific questions and comments like this that odds are will be answered by the controllers that work at that airport (or I will forward your message to the NATCA Facility Rep for a response).

Sometimes a specific parellel is assigned based upon what direction your turn after departure will be so that we can reduce or eliminate the possiblility of you crossing the departure corridor for the other runway, that may have been the case here, but I'm not familiar with SFO so I don't know.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Scott Voigt]

Jim;

Mike already told you pretty much what I was going to tell you. The other issue that you may not be aware of, but when the tower goes to midnight ops, they have a LOT of combined positions that are being worked by probably two people in the tower. They have a few radios that they are listening too as well as making the landline coordination that would normally be done by another person. It can sound like you are being ignored at times but we are trying to give clearances, get releases from approach as well as talking to folks on other freqs. Not to mention the FM freqs for ground vehicles at some airports.

regards

Scott

[Jim Morehead]

Scott and Mike...thanks for the info. Coming into LAX tonight everything was ENTIRELY NORMAL! Actually it was interesting landing on 24R was that the controller never issued speed control nor gave an idea of how long the VFR final would be. More often than not, there are suggestions, statements, and/or cues to figure it out. Tonight there wasn't. It was a good operation tonight in LAX.

Another interesting thing happened about 3 and 6 hours (of 11) into the flight. we got severe turbulence in a 747-400 which you rarely experience. We were using CPDLC and EVA couldn't hold altitude. We were 1,000 below him in RSVM airspace and the controller directed us to descend another thousand feet to 330 just to protect the altitude. Severe turbulence is not fun. it was caused by fronts,big temp changes, and wind shifts. Objects are flying around the cockpit and the airspeed is jumping around causing everything from stall warnings to overspeed. I had more turbulence last night of the severe variety than in the last 20 years.

I'll check out the other website.

Now they ain't gonna beat up on me and make me number last, are they????

[av8boy]

Jim,

1. You will not be beat up.
2. You are now number last.

Mike,

I'm curious... how is the fact that you're not familiar with SFO a problem when discussing the 25s at LAX? :O Anyway, I know for a fact that Mike F answers his email, so that's not a bad idea...

Dave

[FWA NATCA]

AV8boy,

I have never flown into or out of SFO, so I can't admit to any knowledge of the airport layout or local ATC procedures used there. I was in LAX twice, once in 1976 on my way overseas (compliments of the USMC) and again in 1977 on my way home after getting out of the USMC.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[West Coast]

Mike
Your assumptions about specific runway assignment at SFO are correct.

[Jim Morehead]

Good questions. SFO is MUCH different than LAX for a number of resons and I have flown into both extensively and my current Company China Airlines flies both PAX and FRT to both.

SFO has generally bad winter weather (chamber of Commerce need not take not and I am not running for office in Northern California so Arnold is safe). From what I see, SFO hates using any different RW configuration other than departing on the ONEs and arriving on the 28s. They have a CROSS runway, so this is easier than LAX in many ways provided they don't meet at the intersection <bg> and that the pilots don't do anything other than the controller expects like turning onto an active runway or landing short when the controller expects you to roll through the intersection. SFO has parallels and this IS a problem and it it still an open issue actually as SFO sometimes tells you NOT to overtake the guy ahead when using 28L and 28R visual parrallels. Some days it is an issue and some days not. Depending on your landing speed, it is not often possible to comply and you don't know it until after the game is played out because some pilots fly slow (er) and others are fast (er).

LAX has a double set of parallels and the north and south complexes each have close parallels. In the case of LAX, they can't be "EVEN" parallels on the North or South complex,but the North can handle one and the South one at the same time at least when visual. I hope you understand what I mean.

In LAX's case, the runway for landing is easily predictable . If you come from the North Pacific, RNO,PDX,SEA,SFO, Canada, you'll land 24R in a west operation. If from SAN,the South Pacific, and generally the east, you get 25L. Freight usually gets 25L. But LAX is interesting because they try to accomodate you by the terminal which you will be going. United generally arrives on the 25 complex and departs the same unless traffic is heavy on departure and then the ground controller gets a workout.

LAX is usually more visuals.

SFO has ceiling requirements that often are not high enough for parallel and even staggered visuals.

SFO also has an interesting drill that goes on during the midnight shift and pilots are EXPECTED to take off 10L over the bay if POSSIBLE and land to the West on 28 if possible. This means that they can't work many airplanes because they have to be careful on not releasing one the opposite direction until the other one is assured.

LAX takes off west most of the time and during the midnight lands east when possible. I have arrived from Hawaii at 0500 many times and you get either 6 or 7 landings unless the tailwind (usually there) exceeds 10 kts.

BTW, some carriers and airplanes have a 10 kt limit and others have a 15 kt limit.

So anyway, they are both unique...

[Scott Voigt]

Jim;

OH NO!!!! Not Dynasty!!!!! We used to HATE working them. When they showed up we just got everyone out of the way and watched what they were going to do...

As to the don't pass when doing visual with another aircraft. We have had many discussions on this in ATPAC (Air Traffic Procedures Advisory Committee). One of the things we had to try to explain to the pilot group is that when you are instructed to maintain visual separation from the other aircraft in front of you, it is real hard to do when you pass him and can't see him anymore. So you are actually in violation of your clearance. The controllers had to resort to advising not to pass to try to keep this from happening.

regards

Scott

PS. As to different pilots flying the same airplane differently. AMEN!

[Coast]

Jim
Why are you wasting time flying around such lousy places like FLL, LAX, SAN and those other warm areas?? Come fly in the "great white north", we're quite accommodating;) ;)

[Dream Land]

[email protected]


Intresting remark about violating the clearence when the aircraft is behind you, arrived SFO yesterday for the quiet bridge arrival 28R, while on the approach a UAL 37 was making a left base to 28L, I was told to maintain visual seperation, problem is the UAL joined the final behind me and never caught up to me the entire approach, bad phraeseology or was I supposed to follow this aircraft somehow?:confused:

D L

[FWA NATCA]

DREAM,

It sounds like the other aircraft should had been told to maintain visual seperation with you, as you indicated how can you maintain visual with someone you can't see.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Jim Morehead]

combined reply

Coast-I do get to YVR and yes the Canadians are very accomodating...Eh?

With my light airplane when back in the east, I flew into the Toronto Island airport and that was interesting to take a boat over to the "mainland".

On the Dynasty call sign, things are improving and the biggest problem I see is that when somebody doesn't understand what the controller wants, they should just say STANDBY and not leave the controller wondering whether you either got the tramission or understand it.

But something that I found interesting yesterday was that controllers of many countries apparently do not understand what I call basic turbulence categories. I think it was Thailand ATC,but I made a report of moderate chop. When no response, I guessed they didn't understand the word CHOP so I just made it moderate turbulence. I am not sure they undertood that because the response was the classic "SAY AGAIN" (which essentially means I have no idea what you just said and I'll call the english dude in to interpret!)!

I am not sure if there are controllers from other than the US/Canada/GB here on this forum, but aren't turbulence categories all international? Light chop, Light , Moderate Chop, Moderate turbulence, Severe, and extreme. they are all based on transport category airplanes and have very specific definitions.

On the SFO (or other parallel approach places), SFO sometimes issues orders/directions to NOT PASS UP THE AIRPLANE AHEAD. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes landing at the same time on 28L and 28R seems to be o.k.

I understand that you can't keep the other airplane in sight if you pass him since rear view mirros are optional equipment <bfg>!

But more often than not, I get paired up with an RJ or prop or even another jet that isn't doing the same speed. The chances of two airplanes doing the exact same speed are rare. So it is assumed that whatever you are doing at the marker is what the controller is happy with. I have heard discussions inside the marker when the controller tells the overtaking airplane NOT to do that. When he says,"there ain't no way I can do what you ask short of spinning in with stalls inside the outer marker, the controller either lives with it or sends the second guy around.

[West Coast]

On the quiet bridge it is common to be told to maintain visual. I have also noticed that NORCAL will also get the other guy to maintain visual if its appears that the natural progression has the original aircraft ahead as they pair.

[Check 6]

Great thread everyone.

Jim M., I feel your pain, but ATC handling in America is in many occasions more customer friendly than in some, but not all, European countries.

I am based at Naples, Italy, but have California and Florida residences, and started flying in Central California in 1967, but flying the last four plus years in Europe.

In Naples, it is about impossible to get a takeoff clearance if there is an Alitalia MD-80 on final (one runway 24/06) at ten miles out (in VMC). (We are flying military LearJets).

It is about impossible to get a visual approach if there is an airline within twenty-five miles of the aerodrome (in VMC).

It is about impossible to get a VFR clearance for night currency circuits. I was told one night that they were expecting some diversions from Rome (30 minutes away). and could not accept us, keeping in mind that we can do each circuit (touch-and-go) in roughly two minutes (LearJet).

Our how about asking a French ATC (center/control/en route) to spell an intersection name and they refuse to answer up on the R-T after multiple requests.

Or how about the French ATC refusing our request to overfly France from London to Italy at FL410, but because we are not RVSM equipped (but have state aircraft exemption) they refuse. What conflicts do they expect at FL410? How do you spell vector? We will get asked if we can accept FL430! Every other country in the Eurocontrol region gives us about any altitude we want. Go figure.

I also believe that in most cases the service received depends on the individual ATC (France excepted). I had a Naples local controller one night advise me when I requested night VFR circuits that the wx was below VFR. I then asked for Special VFR circuits and it was approved. I did not know this was possible, but asked and received. Go figure.

Try to get a "direct" (short-cut) in France - NOT. But this is possible in other countries. In the lowlands and Scandinavia 300 mile shortcuts are not unusual.

In Italy you can not file "direct" on your flight plan, as Eurocontrol's software will reject it. You can however get directs once you are airborne, traffic permitting of course.

I find some of the ATC in Europe and the UK to be some of the best in the world.

I appreciate the explanation about ATC sequencing slower aircraft onto a shorter final. I used to fly prop air ambulances into SFO, and this is what Bay Approach (NorCal now?) did. It worked great. I remember telling Bay Approach while inbound from the North adjacent to Skaggs Island VOR that we needed to get on the ground at SFO ASAP as our patient was in a bad way. No problem! We were vectored onto a final to RWY 19R. As many of you know, this is in conflict with the departures on RWY 01L/R and also the arrivals on 28L/R. I told ATC that I would make the turnoff onto the North parallel prior to crossing 28R, and he replied "the runway is yours."

I wrote a "good-guy" letter thanking for the outstanding service. I am sure the patient (in cardiac arrest) appreciated it also.

Having said all of the above, I must emphasize that there are great ATC all over the world.

But as the lady said in the movie, "there is no place like home."



Check 6

[FWA NATCA]

Check 6,

This is a great forum and it is awesome how well controllers from all over, and pilots are able to interact, and learn from each other.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Squawk7777]

Overall, I have had great experiences flying in the states. There are good controllers and ones that have a bad day.

I used to instruct at SAT. SAT used to be a really busy airport in regards to flight instruction and many students came from Mexico, the Middle East and Europe. Teaching them aviation English was sometimes a great challenge.

90% of the time when a plane holds short of the runway and contacts the tower ("SAT tower Cessna 12345 holding short 12R, taxiway Kilo, ready for departure), the tower simply replies with "Roger". No"hold short". On numerous occasions, some of my flight students wanted to taxi onto the runway. I have called the tower and was always told the term "roger" is only being applied when the freq is really busy. :rolleyes: :suspect: This has turned into a bad habit at SAT.

I am not an air traffic controller, but isn´t the tower required to instruct "hold short"?

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[rodan]

I may be being stupid here, but didn't you already tell them that was what you were doing in your transmission? And how did you get there in the first place? Presumably with a taxi clearance as far as Kilo?

[Squawk7777]

What concerns me here is the potential for disaster. There was an incident/runway incursion with another flight school at the same airport for the same reason. Wouldn't surprise me if that had to do that SAT was in the first US top 10 of runway incursions two or three years ago. Besides, I have only noticed "Roger" at SAT and not at any other airport.

[West Coast]

My understanding of the word roger in this context is because of frequency congestion. If they say hold short, they are required by the 7110.65 to receive a readback of the holdshort and if they don't then they have to again transmit to the aircraft in question something to the effect of "C/S readback hold instructions" No readback is required if they say roger and the aircraft doesn't reply. The strength of the argument would be that hopefully we all know that positive clearance is required on the runway and that roger means squat other than I know your there. I am not defending it, just my understanding of its use in this situation.

[Voroff]

" it's about impossible to get a VFR clearance for night currency circuits. "

no idea about italy but you can not be vfr at night in uk. it,s against the rules, why I don't know as i find it easier to spot aircraft at night than during the day :D

[Jim Morehead]

Check6 and the others...thanks for continuing an interesting thread. It is interesting to have controllers and pilots worldwide here. Maybe its time to pick on someone else for a while!!!

Is there anyone from NRT here or that has knowledge of NRT? I find that every time the wind changes 2 kts or goes to the other direction at NRT by 2 kts, they change runways.

In most countries, they just take the small tailwind and keep on the same runway. Unless it becomes operational impossible to takeoff and land, the runway should be left alone until a break in traffic demand occurs and then a runway change is fine. But I have had the NRT wind at 210/5 (using 16) and then the wind would go to 340/2 and they change runways. I think almost every airplane built can handle a 10 kt tailwind. Many operators can take a 15 kt tailwind with certain restrictions.

Now of course there are penalties and people taking off at MAX Gross weight and going long distances can't always take too much of a tailwind like 10 kts. I know in America, the wind is usually reported as light and variable below 5 kts and nobody even worries about it.

Can anyone offer a difference perspective or what most countries will do? Japan just sticks out like a sore thumb and I am not sure why the runway will flip back and forth a few times per hour. At any busy airport it takes a while to turn the operation around. Usually they ahve to delay vector and send everybody to a holding pattern.

Other than the customary one turn arriving at Heathrow, I hold more in Japan than all places in the world combined. Is my luck just bad???

[FWA NATCA]

Squawk7777,

Receiving only a "ROGER" when you called ready for departure and not being told to "HOLD SHORT", and receiving a read back that you are "HOLDING SHORT" should not be occuring anywhere in the U.S. Our 7110.65 mandates that we instruct you to hold short and that we receive a readback with the pilot saying that they are holding short.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[West Coast]

Its use is fairly widespread.

[Jim Morehead]

Mike...It is widespread and reading back EVERYTHING that a controller says would bring the system to a halt especially on landing. There is no way that every airplane can repeat everything simply to "land". XXX cleared for the aprroach. Maintain 3,000 until cross XX. Keep your airspeed at 160 or above until the outer marker. Plan to turn off at taxiway Q and then.........

[Check 6]

Jim, in Europe that is exactly what is required. We repeat back every clearance, and guess what? It has not come to a standstill.

;)

[FWA NATCA]

Jim,

Hold Short Restrictions are a "MANDATORY" read back item. If you pull up to a runway after being told to hold short, and you do not read back the hold short, and someone is on short final, and I can't get you to read back the Hold Short Restriction, I "MUST" send the acft on final around. Granted if this happens the offending pilot will end up having a chat with a FSDO agent.

As for reading back the entire approach clearance, I've had many pilots read back the entire clearance, and others state their call sign and say cleared for the approach, either one works. As for bringing the system to a stand still with complete readbacks, that may be a factor below the Mason Dixon line (those southern pilots and controllers talk awlful slow), but not up north.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[West Coast]

Mike
Does the 7110.65 specifically say you must say hold short if the pilot calls and you can't put him/her into position? I understand that if you do then you must receive a readback. If someone calls for T/O with another guy on short final and it will only be a few seconds you can put him in position, can you then say roger so you don't have to go through the drill. I'm looking through chapter III and I don't see specific prohibition against doing so. Is it an interpretation of another rule?

[Jim Morehead]

In terms of coming to a halt, it does in places.You can tell the controller is overworked when he says. Everybody stop talking and listen. Don't speak unless I call you. When that happens, it is bad!!!

On reading back all of the clearance (other than hold short etc.) almost every airline is the same and I don't read back all the useless information because it accomplishes nothing. If an approach controller vectors you for final like the last 100 airplanes, why would it be any different to hear something other than XXX, cleared for the ILS runway 28R, maintain speed 160 to the marker. contact tower on 120.9? We all know the runway in use. If we have been paying attention we know that the guy has 3 or 5 miles between airplanes. We all know he wants 160 to the marker. And we all know the tower frequency.

To wit: How come (at least in America) that if one understands his clearance on clearance delivery, that is is acceptable and expected to ONLY read the transponder code back? Somehow the system works .....

[vector4fun]

Mike Does the 7110.65 specifically say you must say hold short if the pilot calls and you can't put him/her into position?


I can't find any requirement to do so either. The only thing close I find is in para 3-9-4, to wit:



h. When a local controller delivers or amends an ATC clearance to an aircraft awaiting departure and that aircraft is holding short of a runway or is holding in position on a runway, an additional clearance shall be issued to prevent the possibility of the aircraft inadvertently taxiing onto the runway and/or beginning takeoff roll. In such cases, append one of the following ATC instructions as appropriate:

1. HOLD SHORT OF RUNWAY, or

2. HOLD IN POSITION.


I've seen pilots blast off in absense of a TO clearance in just this situation, so I'm careful of it. :uhoh:


Having said that, it's my personal preference to always use the phrase "Hold Short" when replying to an aircraft that says "Ready for Takeoff". On the other hand, pilots are all different, and many will approach the end of the runway and say "Nxxxxx is holding short of runway 17L", to which I might only reply, "Roger".

[Squawk7777]

Is reference 7110.65 available online?

[av8boy]

7110.65 link http://www.aviationpolicy.org/airports.htm toward the bottom of the page.

[vector4fun]

A cure for all your restless nights right here:




http://www1.faa.gov/ATpubs/

[Jerricho]

Guys and gals,

Been very interesting reading this thread. And you all play so nice with each other. Very impressed!

[Squawk7777]

Let me clarify this... If a pilot calls "holding short" tower does NOT require to issue a hold short instruction? If on the other hand a pilot calls "ready for departure" does tower then need to issue a "hold short" instruction?

7 7 7 7

[vector4fun]

7777,

As I read the 7110.65, there is no requirement to say the words, "Hold Short" in response to an aircraft that has called "Ready for Takeoff, though I believe it's good operating practice. What the .65 DOES say is to use the phrase "Hold Short" if you need to tell an aircraft or vehicle to remain clear of a runway, and then requires that the controller get a read-back of that restriction.

What's the difference you ask? Well, in the first case, the aircraft is already required to hold short absent a clearance to enter the active runway.

If a pilot announces to me that he/she IS holding short of a runway, why should I repeat that phrase right back to the pilot? And wouldn't that just require the pilot to read it right back to me, leading us right back to our point of origin???;) :} :yuk: :E :E

(edited for grammar)

[FWA NATCA]

Vector4Fun,

If an aircraft is taxied out by ground, no the controller does not have to tell the aircraft to hold short, but sometimes when dealing with a student you will.

IF, a pilot calls me and says that he is ready to go, or anything along those lines, I will tell the pilot to HOLD SHORT, if I can not clear them for take off, or put them into Position on the runway.

I've witnessed too many GA pilots go sailing past the hold short lines, and yes, some got onto the runway when a controller just acknowledged that they heard that they were ready.

My theory is you are better SAFE than SORRY, so if I'm working Local, and a pilot calls ready, I don't care if they are number one, or number 6 for departure, I will tell them to HOLD SHORT, unless I can clear them for takeoff or put them into Position and Hold.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[normally left blank]

Just saying "Roger" to a pilot rolling towards the runway "Ready for departure". Hmmm. Not very professional. Runway incursions ARE a problem.

Jim M. asked about the "Request" bit for quite ordinary R/T exchanges. Where did it originate. The military? Busy schools where a student might block the frequency?

Best regards

[Scott Voigt]

Hi Jim;

Sorry, I've been away doing some work travel... As to your question about chop. Probably the problem is that there is nothing for Chop in weather reporting. It is something that we use as "slang" in this country and it is accepted, but there is nothing in the official books for reporting chop. It is all reported as turbulence.

For the person asking about the visual on the Quiet Bridge. If you can't maintain visual due the aircrafts position, then you need to tell the controller that you are not going to be able to keep him in sight. If you accept the clearance and then lose sight ( ala PSA 727 in San Diego.) then we won't know that you can't.

regards

Scott

[Coast]

Jim

I've also been away. About the ferry........Toronto's new mayor just nixed a plan to put in a bridge:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You should feel special though: you landed at the most noise restrictive airport in the world and then took the shortest ferry ride in the world!!

XA

[Squawk7777]

The few times I flew in Europe I noticed that clearances are issued at a rather inconvenient time.

Why are clearances in Europe issued right before you are cleared for take-off? It creates a popup of departure & enroute charts in the cockpit almost as bad as some internet sites. :uhoh:

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[West Coast]

Scott
Chop isn't slang. Its used to diferentiate levels of ride and is defined in the AIM.

AIM 7-1-23

[Scott Voigt]

Hi West Coast;

Don't think that you will find it though in the NWS books... Could be that I am wrong since I haven't gone into them for a few years. But it was always taught that you report turbulence and that is what the WX service has on the forms too <G>...

regards

Scott

[West Coast]

Scott
I do understand what your saying, I just wonder how many pilots use the NWS standards. Just as you source the 7110.65 for your phraseology, the FAR/AIM is where a pilot goes. I don't discount NWS turbulence descriptions but the most likely location a pilot will search for and find a proper description for what they experienced is the FAR/AIM, where chop is defined as a valid reporting term.

Out of sheer boredom I went to the NWS site and pilled the document out after a brief search. They use the same turbulance reporting criteria matrix as is in the AIM.


http://www.weather.gov/wsom/manual/archives/ND229107.HTML#7.2.1 Severe (chop)

Go about halfway down the document to find it.

[Jim Morehead]

Well,I'm back from a new area of the world where they probably won't run out of gas nor sand!

On turbulence, I am surprised that everybody ISN'T playing by the same book. Could this be some oversight? If in the U.S. a controller (officially) does not use the same terms pilots are using, I can see why it doesn't work in Japan or other countries.

Your posting made me think of a quote a Captain made many years ago to a controller going over NW Florida at cruise. He said, "Do you the difference between light and moderate turbulence? Well, it's like being kicked by a mule or a mouse"!

On YYZ downtown, I am surprised it is still not closed after 9/11 by politcians. Of course one nutcake could take off from ANY location and end up in the side of any building if so deranged.

On SFO, I understand about what happens when you are attempting to follow somebody visually and lose them in the low(er) clouds. I am referring to following someone when both a VFR and APPROACH spaces them as best them can (staggered) and then one airplane overtakes or closes the gap to the other. I am never asked about what speed I will or can fly. I think the controller just assumes what I will do and that goes back to everybody flies airplanes a little faster or slower which is unpredictable by the controller.

As an aside, I get back to SFO about noon on the 10th on a new China Airlines route from BNA. It will be a new routing from ANC-BNA-SFO. Arriving in SFO at noon (aka daylight) with a freighter will be a new experience. Can I request 28R now? How about a straight in and cross Cedes at 10 and 250 and be #1???

For my controller experts, what goes into the FAA deciding when they'll create a separate frequency for Clearance Delivery? Is there a number count that must be achieved or if the ground guy is overwhelmed every day and/or makes mistakes trying to work ground AND give ATC clearances, is it obvious to the local management?

Many countries do NOT have a clearance delivery frequency. And many mid-size places do everything on ground and some even do everything on the tower freq. Many places in the world issue an ATC clerance on taxi out. I really don't know why and it is somewhat more distracting than it needs to be. Since it is going to be the same clearnace 5 mintues earlier or 5 minutes later, I do not understand why it couldn't be given in advance at the gate. During the taxi out, there are checklists to be run. The cabin usually has some problem and often there is some mechinical issue or weight planning issue to be resolved.