Ppl (ir)

[Foxy2004]

I'm looking to add an Instrument Rating to my PPL.

Searched the CAA website, with no luck, for the precise medical requirements. Everything seems to assume you're adding IR to a commercial licence and so need Class 1. Is it just Class 2 with a hearing requirement? Don't want to spend all time & money and find out at the end there's an unforeseen medical hurdle.

Would anyone who's added an IR to an IMC give a recommendation on where to do theory and where to do flying, how long it might take (I can do full time) and whether it's worth doing in my SEP or go straight and do it MEP?

Thanks!

[bookworm]

Is it just Class 2 with a hearing requirement?

Yes.

Would anyone who's added an IR to an IMC give a recommendation on where to do theory and where to do flying, how long it might take (I can do full time)

Suggest you visit (and join) PPL/IR Europe (www.pplir.org ) if you're not a member already. Lots of valuable stuff there.

and whether it's worth doing in my SEP or go straight and do it MEP?

What do you intend to do with the IR? If you're going to be flying SEPs I suggest getting the SEP-restricted version. These days you have to do a renewal in an MEP for the IR to remain valid on MEPs, so if you're not flying MEPs on a regular basis there's not much point in getting the unrestricted version.

HTH

[Rupert S]

i've been thinking of going ir post PPL lately and have been considering the FAA IR - may be worth thinking about.

[Keef]

The FAA IR is very attractive for a host of reasons - see the article in the latest Flyer.

[Charlie Zulu]

Very much agree with the above, the FAA IR is a lot more "convenient" for PPL's.

Study wise its a simple matter of obtaining a VHS or DVD course (around £150-£200) and then going through all of the questions so you know what to expect in the exam - the FAA publish all of the questions.

If you then wish to add a JAA IR to your JAA PPL then all you'd need do is the JAA IR theory subjects and a 15 hour "upgrade" course.

You'll then have both an FAA PPL/IR and JAA PPL/IR to use on N and G registered aeroplanes all around the world *and* will probably work out around the same sort of cost for a JAA IR.

Which ever route you decide to take then all the best, an IR is one of the most useful ratings to obtain. It is just a shame the JAA bods make it so difficult for us to obtain one.

Can't wait for a flying holiday around the States, having an FAA IR will make it even more predictable where I'll be staying each night, with the exception of any thunderstorms/hurricanes etc. ;)

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[PhilD]

...all you'd need do is the JAA IR theory subjects...

.. but isn't it the the theory that's the problem with getting the JAA IR. From what I know, and as an FAA IR holder, there are some differences in the flying test but nothing that any reasonable person could object to. It's the differences in the theory requirements that make the FAA IR so attractive to get in the first place, and are the major barrier to people who want to fly IR in Europe.

Before anyone points out the differences in renewal requirements (annual test vs experience), I know about that, but IMHO that is less of a disincentive to get the JAA IR than the initial hurdle of the theory exams.

[FlyingForFun]

Foxy asked:Would anyone who's added an IR to an IMC Therefore, I assume you already have an IMC (and possibly lots of hours of actual instrument flying)?

If that's the case, then CZ's suggestion of the FAA IR and then the conversion to JAR is a good one. The requirements for the FAA IR are for 40 hours, of which at least 15 must be with a CFII (I think - someone will correct me if the numbers are wrong, I'm sure). All of the instrument flying you've done so far - and that includes the couple of hours you did for your PPL, and it includes your IMC course, and also any instrument flying you've done since - can be counted towards the 40 hours minimum. So the minimum amount of training you'd need to get the FAA IR would be 15 hours. It's then a further 15 hours to convert that to a JAR IR. Total minimum training: 30 hours, which is a considerable reduction over the minimum if you were to go for the JAR IR from the start (55 hours, I think, if you don't have a CPL?)

FFF
----------------

[Keef]

For the private pilot, the FAA IR is ideal and is achievable.

The JAA one involves more study and time in the classroom than someone not going for a professional pilot career would want to spend.

The arguments are well rehearsed in many fora, but the "Euroauthorities" aren't listening. I suppose they don't need to.

[bookworm]

.. but isn't it the the theory that's the problem with getting the JAA IR. From what I know, and as an FAA IR holder, there are some differences in the flying test but nothing that any reasonable person could object to.

I think it's more than that. The JAA IR flying training has to be conducted by a JAA approved school. The exam has to be conducted by a CAAFU examiner in a specially approved aircraft fitted with screens. The approvals mean that the number of places you can do the flying is limited, and the prices are therefore high.

AIUI, you can do an FAA IR in your own aircraft at the local airport. All you need is an instructor and some foggles. I'm not suggesting that the test is any easier -- from what I've heard I'll take the Nav exams over an FAA IR oral any day! -- but the logistics certainly are.

[Foxy2004]

The FAA IR sounds attractive, but you do need to reregister your aircraft to N reg, and can only fly IR on an N reg. Can a JAR pilot fly an N reg without a restricted FAA licence? You can't cost share in the Uk, which is a real nuisance.

You can however do the FAA IR in the UK..has anybody done that and with whom? I know doing in US is cheaper, but I'd rather learn UK airways and RT, not to mention our wonderful IMC weather.

[IO540]

I am pretty sure you can fly an N-reg on a JAR PPL, in UK airspace only though. The IMC Rating is still valid in an N-reg (the CAA have told me so in writing).

Getting an N-reg plane is by far the biggest hurdle for the average UK pilot. Basically it means buying into a serious "IFR" group, or buying your own plane.

[18greens]

A few thoughts....

Think about why you are adding the IR. For most peopel an IMC is more than enough.

Most people with an IR will not fly in less than IMC conditions(or even VFR conditions, 3K). The thought of 200' approach in a single piston may be out of most peoples comfort zones.


Most airways in the UK are out of reach of pistons.


If its a matter of having it because you have to have it then a MEP IR is the cogniscentis choice.

An IR does allow IMC in Europe and for a lot of countries an IR is required for night flying.

[IO540]

18greens

I agree that the IMCR does the UK adequately to get from A to B - unless you fly a deiced turbocharged piston or a turboprop. Or unless the top is well below say FL100 which is easily reachable by any decent SEP.

However almost anyone flying seriously is going to go abroad, and it then becomes plain very quickly indeed that an IR is needed to do planned flights. Just as the IMCR or IR is needed to do planned flights in the UK.

There is a weird issue with IFR outside the airways being permitted or not in France. There are differing views on it - I was told by a ATCO at LFBZ that it is not permitted. Others suggest that he was wrong.

[Keef]

I think the French thing depends on who you ask and how. I've filed proper airways routes in France, and been cleared "direct" to places 200nm away, with no reference to the airways system.

I think if Paris Control is working you, it's airways regardless of where you are (in practice, if not in theory).

[Flyin'Dutch']

Foxy2004,

If you follow this link (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=3538&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) you can see some further information on getting the FAA IR.

Need more info, send me a PM.

Ciao

FD

[Foxy2004]

So have I got this right?

An FAA IR can use his (her) rating on a G reg aircraft only in the UK, but on an N reg anywhere?

An N reg aircraft can be flown by a JAR pilot as PIC in the UK, but not abroad? Abroad, a JAR pilot can fly recording the time as PIC on an N reg only if accompanied by another FAA qualified pilot also being PIC in his own FAA logbook.

[Rupert S]

No. If you hold an FAA IR then you can only exercise the privelages associated with it when flying a N-registered aircraft, anywhere in the world. You can't fly with the IR if a G-Registered aircraft.

[IO540]

The privileges of an FAA IR RATING need an N-reg plane, anywhere in the world.

With an FAA PPL LICENSE you can fly a G-reg (UK only) or an N-reg (worldwide).

With a UK/JAR PPL LICENSE you can fly an N-reg (UK only) or a G-reg (worldwide).

If you have an FAA IR and need to fly real IFR in the UK, you can get the IMC Rating just by sending off a cheque to the CAA. But an IMC Rating also needs a UK/JAR PPL.

A UK/JAR PPL needs the Class 2 medical. An FAA PPL needs the FAA Class 3 medical.

The above is AIUI (as I understand it).

I have heard stories of pilots with an FAA IR getting permission to fly IFR in e.g. France in a non-N-reg plane. I don't know these first-hand but I heard of it in connection with aircraft delivery flights.

[bookworm]

An FAA IR can use his (her) rating on a G reg aircraft only in the UK, but on an N reg anywhere?

No, not quite. The privileges of an FAA IR can be exercised on a G-reg aircraft, but not for IFR flight in controlled airspace. In principle this should apply in any state's airspace, but it might be worth checking that the state in question honours the CAA's (automatic) validation of the FAA licence before relying on it. Many states have no real concept of IFR outside controlled airspace, so it may not be of much use outside the UK.

As IO540 notes, the CAA will issue an IMC rating on a JAA licence on the strength of a FAA/IR as a paperwork-only exercise. This would extend the privilege above in effect to allow IFR flight in classes D and E.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Many states have no real concept of IFR outside controlled airspace So what do they call it when you're flying in cloud outside controlled airspace?

[IO540]

Gertrude the Wombat

There is widespread belief, possibly correct, that IFR outside the airways system is not permitted in France. I was told this personally by a French ATCO. I don't what about anywhere else, though Spain would be interesting.

Someday, somebody, will come up with an authoritative list of what is allowed in which country. I've never seen such info anywhere, despite it being an often asked question. Somebody has to know because plenty of people fly little planes IFR all over Europe on business. The problem is that the community of "IFR" contributors here on pprune who know the nooks and crannies of this stuff is very small. Or perhaps if somebody knows, they are keen to keep it quiet. Why? No idea.

It's interesting to note than an FAA PPL/IR (is it possible to be a JAR PPL with an FAA IR?) can fly a G-reg IFR outside CAS (F/G) in the UK. If France/Spain allowed the same, that would be great because despite the prevalence of Class E in France/Spain, it is possible to fly usefully there in F/G. It would be a good option for European touring because for most non-owners, N-reg is not feasible.

I doubt it is possible because it would be an "easy IR" - using the FAA IR as a back door to a "proper" IR is exactly what the JAA states are keen to prevent.

[troposurfer]

Howdy folks!!!


The article in the mag stated that if you get a FAA-IR then you automatically qualify for the IMC rating so I presume that means that you can fly in IMC outside CAS in a G-reg aircraft.

The problem with the JAA-IR is that you have to do the same groundschool as someone hoping to fly commercially and take a similar test. You have to learn about INS/IRS/EFIS and weather radar etc etc. Most of which is absolutely no use or interest to the Private IR pilot. You MUST attend a compulsory groundschool 'refresher' and follow an approved theory course the cheapest of which in the UK is about £1200 and will cost you 3 weeks of holiday leave PLUS exam costs and accomodation.

This is the advantage of the FAA system over JAA. Cheaper flying/instruction costs and exam questions that are in the public domain(plus oral) with self study as an option.

Drawback being N-reg aircraft only for your IFR flying.

An mag article also specluted that France was to ban N-reg aircraft from it's airspace but how legal that would be since it is an ICAO Contracting state I can only guess.


There is a school that I think does a JAA approved PPL/IR theory distance learning course based in Bournemouth called GTS.

The theory seems to be a big stumbling block for many. Why on earth would you want to learn about B737 EFIS and FMS/INS systems if you intend to fly and IFR equipped PA-28R or C206?????

If you could do a more relevant IR theory course and convert aFAA IR in 15 hrs everyones a winner.

The JAA have made the possibility of a JAA PPL-IR very very difficult. It is interesting that they have no legal basis whatsoever as they are not part of the EU and have been 'adopted' by the various JAA states. Hopefully when EASA eclipses them it will be more friendly to the private flyer instead of being more interested in commercial aviation. However on first impressions this sadly does not seem to be the case. (Mode S and megabucks insurance threatening to keep us out of the air).

Private fliers need an EU wide organisation dedicated to preserving the private individuals right(or priviledge) to take to the air.


What do you think?????????????????



Regards


Tropo


Happy New Year to you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IO540]

troposurfer

If you've got an FAA IR and want the IMC Rating then you need to send a cheque and a completed app form to the CAA. You also need a UK/JAR PPL for the IMC Rating.

The thing about the French is a proposal to force N-reg aircraft resident in France to re-register to the F register within 6 months. If your aircraft is in the USA for more than 6 months, you have to do the same (go N-reg), AFAIK. The French proposal would effectively end the N-reg option for French resident pilots. Any country could do the same. The UK CAA have chosen not to do it (yet).

[IFollowRoads]

I'm one of those strange beasts, a CAA/PPL with SE-IR, but I've not got any FAA paperwork, so will have to refer you to others for what you can/can't do with that.

A number of questions posed, and I'll try to answer some of them now, and have a go at some more later ;-)

IFR in France:
A flight plan is mandatory, and depending on how you file it will dictate how much is on/off airways. If you file in France using the BRIA over the telephone, you will get away with a lot more than if you file by fax, or from the UK (when CFMU kicks in, but thats another story!) If you file an airways flight plan, at typical non-turbo heights, when airborne you will frequently get a direct to a waypoint on your route that avoids some of the doglegs. Sometimes the airways are not suitable routing/available FL's, and if not filing over the phone, you will have to accomodate the 'max 50nm between DCT waypoint' limitations, which can be challenging itself

The Ground Studies:
I did the correspondence course with the now defunct PPSC, and despite all the rumours, the amount of irrelevant coursework I though was fairly insignificant (but then maybe one day I will have an a/c and the do$h to get weather radar, or I might decide to do a long trip and use HF kit) For me it was a mandatory 1 week on site course, and I learnt wads - very definately worthwhile. I guess something like 40% of the course is Met, which personally I feel that no IFR pilot can understand too much about. The exams were one and a half days at Gatwick, (most of the exams have a generous time limit), but the training made that a one off exercise. At the end of the day, the ground studies were the cheapest part of the process, with the exception of getting the audiogram added to the medical (half an hour or so with a pair of headphones on, waving at the AME at suitable intervals)

The Flight training:
The goalposts have moved again since I did mine, but I believe there may be an reduction in training you can claim if you already have an IMC. Of the whole course, a certain amount may be completed in a sim, and I would heartily recommend you spend some time in one (I really got to hate it, but as a learning/teaching aid it was superb device) I had a slight conflict with my instructor when I first started, but as soon as he realised I was doing an IR to fly a puddle jumper round Europe, and had no interest in maintaining a CDA to LHR in a 747, we worked it out.

The Flight Test:
2D's wrote an excellent article in one of the recent Flyer mags which compared many of the aspects of the CAA vs FAA flight tests and methods, but the CAA test is very much a 'cockpit workload management'. My initial test route was EGHI-NEDUL-EGHH for a hold and couple of approaches, ADSON (and the surrounding area) for the Limited Panel and UA's, and then a recovery to EGHI. The problem with this is the first leg, with climb, is still less than 10 minutes long, and in that time you have to fly the a/c, comply with the SID, complete all the checks (including SIT'ing all the navaids), negotiate the arrival and requirements at EGHH, and get the Bournemouth weather in, all before turning inbound to the BIA. You then get a whole 6 minutes or so to complete the approach brief, plan the hold entry and any WCA's you want to use, perform a fuel plan check and so on. It's a busy period!

Using the Rating:
Annual signoff, and unless you let it lapse for ?5 years or more, the process is the same. The last time I did it, a friendly CRE from my local club (White Waltham) jumped in with me into my a/c, and he subsequently signed off my IR (for a year), IMC (25 months) and CofE (2 years), and charged me £65 (fairly sure it was that much, getting on for a year ago now). Because its single engine stuff, I'm not desperately intersted in 250' minima (but it does help keep the flying sharp to do it), for me it means that I can get into N866 over to Jersey :D , get above some types of clag in France/Switzerland/Germany, or even fly through it. It also means that the route between Bristol & Edinburgh no longer has an enforced descent around Liverpool, and generally opens up more routes. Flying airways is actually very easy, constant Radar control, probably one squawk for the trip, handovers between each ATSU, and more than likely the cruise is all on one altimter setting. On the downside, getting flight plans into the system can sometime be a pain, occasionally (but rarely) slot times may be issued which you don't really want to miss, and probably the biggest: making the decision if you want to go when the weather is a bit 'iffy' - whilst you could probably go quite legally, into something that you would otherwise not consider.

Fully agree with the previous suggestion that you join up with PPL/IR, hope this all helps

IFR

[bookworm]

So what do [states with no real concept of IFR outside controlled airspace] call it when you're flying in cloud outside controlled airspace?

Careless and reckless. :)

Seriously, they tend to have an infrastructure of controlled aispace, usually class E, that makes it highly impractical to fly IFR outside controlled airspace. In particular I'm thinking of Germany, where IFR outside controlled airspace is actually illegal, and the USA where, with a few exceptions, controlled airspace starts at 1200 ft agl (or lower).

[owenlars]

I Follow Roads has it exatly right. The exeperience stated matching exactly with my own. I have had the IR for 3 years (it is actually one of the last of the old CAA ones issued)

Airways flying is extremely simple and easy and a lot safer than VFR.

Departures from places like Wycombe, Fairoaks etc are simple and easy as well. If the tower is active they will normally get your clearance for you, give you a squawk and and a frequency for contacting London. If the tower is closed you merely contact London Inf, give them your airborne time and ask them to activate the flight plan.

Arriving back means you can get dumped from CAS some miles from home but you normally have a radar service available from Thames or Farnbrough in the London area.

Funnily enough the real change for me has been that the weather decision is often much more difficult than when flying VFR. I have even had a case where a VFR departure from Annecy made more sense than an IFR one because of embedded thunderstorm activity above a 6000 ft cloudbase.

Go for it you won't regret it but it will take time and cost you. Once in the IR club a whole world of possibilities opens up.

[Timothy]

This thread is tending towards the same ground as this one (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=113173) for anyone that isn't following it.

Will

[rustle]

IFollowRoads I did the correspondence course with the now defunct PPSC...

When did you do this IFR?

[2Donkeys]

Private fliers need an EU wide organisation dedicated to preserving the private individuals right(or priviledge) to take to the air.


What do you think?????????????????


Whilst the question may have been tongue-in-cheek, it is worth mentioning the excellent PPL/IR Network. This is an organisation that supports the cause of private IFR flying in Europe, and welcomes those who either have, or are interested in the various forms of Instrument Ratings.

Take a look at their website

http://www.pplir.org

and give consideration to joining.


2D

[IFollowRoads]

Rustle

I signed up for the course in January 2000, went for the consolidation class in May of that year, and subsequently sat the exams at Gatwick in September - the delay was introduced as I went for the consolidation course not realising I hadn't completed all the modules, and then by not being able to get the time off work (I was living in Switzerland at the time, so it was a bit more difficult to get there)

The only thing not covered by PPSC was the morse - I used the cassette from Transair, and NuMors (shareware out on the web) which worked for me.

hth

IFR

[rustle]

IFollowRoads -- thanks.

I, too, was at PPSC. In March 2001, CAA two days later :D Wasn't sure if I knew you 'tis all. (Our class was only ten strong)

BTW, they've "relaunched" as GTS now...