Massive Delays ?

[Nogbad the Bad]

When the current AAVA agreement finishes on 31st December, I am wondering what excuse NATS "management" will come up with to explain the resultant delays to the airlines ?

Any thoughts, anyone ?

;)

[Arkady]

The agreement will shortly expire but there are over 200 days "sold" that are still available to be rostered until the end of March. Anyone know the situation in TC?

[250 kts]

What situation in TC?

LACC is the only unit where days were committed to and paid for in advance. As I understand it there is no ability for TC to use AAVAs until an extension to the present agreement or a new agreement is introduced.

Not sure what relevance the end of March has. I believe the agreement just states that days can be carried forward into 2004.

[Jerricho]

250 kts is right. No AVA's. Simple.

We have had a few instances during the year in EGLL tower that staff shortage has reuqired increased spacing and mega-delays. Nogbad's question is a great one. What will management say?

Those government fines will be hanging over their heads as well.

[Arkady]

I understood that all AVAAs committed to had to be worked by the end of March or the payments would have to be returned. I stand corrected if this is not the case. Anyway, it is irrelevent if TC have no more available.

What will management say? They could offer overtime as per the Staff Handbook and claim we are working to an unofficial overtime ban when few take them up on it.

They will blame the trials in Bournemouth as an unavoidable drain on manpower. They may also blame training at LACC as management has agreed to take a service hit to provide extension training for single valid ATCOs up to the end of April.

There are any number of excuses NATS can trot out to the Industry to justify not having enough staff in the ops room(s). But will the airlines buy it?

[Jerricho]

There is also little matter of TC East preparations. Gonna need bums on seats for that one as well.

[Nogbad the Bad]

But will the airlines buy it?

If they are stupid enough to still believe anything that NATS "management" says, then yes ! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[250 kts]

But what is the feeling at the units about Prospect holding firm?- is there the possibility of a backlash or are the members content that the agreement is on hold. I know the vast majority were worked at LACC but how do the folks at LTCC/LL feel about the situation?

[Scott Voigt]

Let's see if I get this right <G>, NATS is made up of a bunch of airlines and the BAA airports folks. So NATS is going to have problems with staffing and they are going to lie to themselves ( the airlines ) who are part owners of the system...? I think I have it... NO WONDER the Brits put out such good comedy, they learn it in everyday life <G>... I think it gives all new meaning to Fawlty Towers <BEG>...

Best

Scott

[Gonzo]

Dead on Scott!

Now I wonder who Basil is.................... <g>

[Bright-Ling]

Gonzo - now to be known in the CTB as Manuel!

B-L

[Jerricho]

And I guess that makes you that "Major" that always hung around, B-L.

[Bright-Ling]

.........."papers arrived yet Faulty?????

B-L

[Scott Voigt]

<snort> Oh the thoughts of all this are wonderful... You have put a smile on my face <G>... Would that be Ham and Cheese as Basil Faulty and that govt. lady as his wife <G>???

Happy Holidays

Scott

[Ahh-40612]

Further repercussion to end of AAVAs at TC is that the South TVC ( Simulator training course for students - for those unsure of the abbreviation) due to run for winter and spring of 2004 has had to be abruptly curtailled, with with students being sent back to the watches to commence training, or not, from Jan 11th.

Main reason given was lack of instructors for the TVC with the East training going on.

So AC still need AAVAs despite giving away a third of their airspace over the last few months!

Hope they roster the AAVAs better than in the past .




40612 carrying hazardous cargo - but no WMD

[PakoSpain]

Amazingly situation in Spain is similar. AAL's agreement finishing december 31st with no renewal will lead to understaffed units. LECM reducing capacity by 60%. LEMG with two operative positions, one in the Twr (CDL+GND+LCL) and another in APP (ARR+DEP), will reduce acceptance to 12 acft per hour instead of the average 35. Whising all parts negotiating to reach a late solution before chaos affect Airports again.

[250 kts]

40612,

Not sure where you get the figure of a third of the airspace disappearing. Yes S33 was moved to SCOACC-this was the quietest sector at LACC in terms of movements but it's interaction with S10/11 caused inproportionate delays. The remaining airspace has been filled to capacity ever since,handled by the same number of ATCOs.

I assume that AAVAs were not being actually used in the simulator at LTCC or were they??-just that the staff that should have been released from the Ops room can no longer be spared. Let's face it management have only known the deal ends for the last 18 months!!

[The Fat Controller]

Sectors 10 and 11 filled to capacity?
Not on lots of my night shifts, when there aren't enough of you at LACC, and we route a lot of Eastbound traffic through ScACC airspace to help you out.
Why, all this time after LACC opening, are there still not enough staff ?

[Arkady]

"Why, all this time after LACC opening, are there still not enough staff ? "


We did not have nearly enough staff when we opened, training did not start in earnest until 9 months after O date and with retirements, resignations, long term sickness and transfers out of the unit we are not much better off now than we were then.

Nights are a special case. Initial Validation at LACC is on a single sector rather than a LAG (or full suite as it was at LATCC). Nights are staffed on bodies not validations, so often there are not enough fully valid staff available to man the nights or occasionally enough staff but not with the right validations.

[250 kts]

TFC,

What a load of bollo**s!!!

When is any sector filled to capacity in the middle of the night????

The only reason there are not enough of us on the nights is if there is sickness in which case management take a decision to run the nights short and re-route the traffic. Remember we are governed by SRATCOH or does it mysteriously not apply at your unit at night??? This situation only happens very infrequently and it is not LACC that you are helping out but the customers.

Very little is re-routed through S33 to avoid S10/11 but I would be interested to see the evidence which suggests otherwise.

As for not enough staff see Arkady's response. The question also shows remarkable naivity about your knowledge of the training at LACC. It is impossible to go from a unit that just about had enough staff to one which requires more to operate it and produce sufficient people in under 2 years. However should you wish to volunteer for a posting you will be made most welcome and no doubt a rapid validation will ensue together with the accompanying amount of full double night duties-maybe you'd like to volunteer for N/Sea and CLN???

[nats]

250 et ARK
To satisfy your curiosity,SRATCOH with OPM monitoring(whilst although on trial,is followed),very much applies at ScACC 24/7,we are also now beginning to find our validation groupings a problem in rostering due in part to many of the symptons that you gave in your replies.

Happy New Year to all our readers.

[Findo]

250kts

Very little is re-routed through S33 to avoid S10/11 but I would be interested to see the evidence which suggests otherwise.

If I'm not mistaken S33 was the old part of North Sea which came north. If this is so then we are talking literally hundreds of aircraft taken out of 10 and 11 and through Humber. On many occasions there have been over a hundred per night.

Nice to know you are kept up to date with our efforts to help you out.

[Mahaba]

"I am amazed that there seems to be a belief that management are thinking about explaining anything. They don't seem to be thinking that far ahead to me. The 'head in the sand' philosophy seems to apply as much now as ever. When delays come, as they are and will, they only need to satisfy the airlines, the gov't and especially the travelling public at times don't seem to know we even exist. 'Head in the sand'? you need look no further than the fact that NAVCANADA is picking up NATS atco's at an alarming rate and nothing is being done about it, especially at EGCC/MACC, in order to justify that statement. There is a belief that the unit may become untenable if the exodus continues without the ability to replenish. Believe me? nor do the managers.
Why are we as, what I consider us to be (unit differences put aside), some of the most valuable assets this country (before you say it...including Scotland,etc) has consistently treated like an expendable idiotic and second class workforce by a management which should have a greater economic value of what our input to our economies are. As posted 2 yrs ago, "Divided we fall"

[Nogbad the Bad]

Excellent post Mahaba....thank you :ok: :ok: :ok:

[The Fat Controller]

Dear 250 kts......Happy New Year.
Most delighted to do 2 full night shifts, that is what I am paid to do.
As for the posting south, I am certainly too old for that.
Not sure of the figures, but as FINDO stated, lots of traffic has been regularly re-routed to avoid LACC airspace at night.
I have already volunteered for the North Sea, I did my training at Bournemouth last January, prior to us at ScACC taking over the majority of it in March !

[Arran's view]

250kts

I can confirm what the others say. On several of my recent night shifts LACC has taken no traffic for ED and EH destinations. We have taken it all through our North Sea sectors. Seems to be on nights when the tracks are further North and we have very heavy traffic loadings.:D :D


Sectors filled to capacity at night ? Try our South West sector. TSF is around mid 40s and traffic will often exceed 55+ when the core tracks are 55 and 56 north.:uhoh: :uhoh:

[Nogbad the Bad]

This is NOT a thread about who has hi-jacked who's airspace. If you wish to talk about that, please start your own thread !!!!!

[Findo]

A bit tetchy Nogbad :eek:

I think the thread is just fine. What the little bit about airspace is saying is even if there are no AAVAs to keep sectors open then there are sometimes different ways of managing the same traffic so there are no MASSIVE DELAYS. These methods have developed in the last year and apparently gone un-noticed by some at LACC who are predicting choas.

Hence the postings are on topic. ;) ;)

[Nogbad the Bad]

Yeah it was a bit OTT........I blame it on........:}

Anyway, you point conceded, but I would rather not have bitchy arguments thank you, if you get my drift. All it does is antagonise when it's not needed, after all we are all in the same boat.

I think, Findo, that your rosy glasses will become a bit tainted when the year wears on. In TC, for sure, no AAVA's will mean delays.....the massissivity (:8 ) of them is yet to be seen.

And.....Happy New Year [:)]

[yaffs]

arkady
just curious
why are your night shifts done on bodies rather than validations held??
(yeah i know - off topic - )

yaffs

[Arkady]

Yaffs, not too far off topic.


Night staffing is dependent on the requirements of the day watches for extra staff, courses to be undertaken on days off following nights/spins and covering known sickness. Not all the sector staff remaining will hold all the necessary validations for bandboxed operations or will have the full validations but only in one discipline, usually Planner.

A single validation will allow one ATCO to act as cover in the event the bandboxed sector is split, a Planner only ATCO can operate as a full member of the night team. Under these circumstances the Night staffing complies with the PSS and the duty staff can remain SCRATCOH compliant ……………until one of the “fully” qualified ATCOs goes sick. At that point the “partially” qualified ATCO may become a spare part and sectors get closed.

The problem is staffing rather than rostering. Resignations and retirements come from the ranks of the “fully” qualified, so this pool of controllers is shrinking. There is a limit of how many night shifts we can do within our contracted hours and a lot of us exceeded that limit last year. Nights are not popular and are arguably the most anti-social of all our shifts so spreading the pain is understandable.

Until we significantly replenish the numbers of “fully” valid ATCOs delays at night will continue.

[yaffs]

cheers arkady - for one moment i had understood that the way night rostering was done meant that the sectors would be short of validations despite having the requisite number of bodies in! tis tricky to plan for sickness!

yaffs

[AyrTC]

RogerOut
Remember as an ATCO you are responible to be "fit" enough to exercise the privilege of your licence.It might be ok to go into work at night if you are going to be quiet but if you are at a Centre where there may be a couple of eastbound tracks you may have to start earning youre money at 0400.If you have an incident and you were not well you will get even more s:mad: t heaped on you at the "informal" chat.People are not being jessies the are just trying to protect themselves and the travelling public.Of course you will always get some skivers at a unit but management should sort them out.

( this is not meant to start a my unit is busier than your unit tirade:uhoh: )

AyrTC

[Arkady]

RO

Very weak argument.

"So why are ATCOs so susceptible to "sickness" on the nightshifts then? I've been in this game 17 years now and haven't missed one,"

But what is your record like on Days? Do you come in for a night shift with a cold that susequently gets worse so you have to take the next four rostered day shifts off?

"you can't tell me someone who's been on unit for two years can have more nights shift off due to "sickness" than I've had for 17 years."

Unless they have done more night shifts in 2 years than you've done in 17.

Are you under 40? You could be, you may feel differently in a few years. Are you married, do you have kids or other responsibilities that will hinder you in the ideal preparation for a night shift?

I'm not trying to cast doubt on you own integrity, just trying to illustrate that each individual and their circumstances are too different for you to draw such sweeping conclusions.

[Greebson]

Roger Out

How many times in your 17 years have you bravely gone into work when you shouldn't have?
Whilst I agree in Air Traffic we seem to have a fair share of malingerers (Lemsips) there are probably an equal amount of robust chaps like yourself who think it's a sign of bravado to come in whilst ill. Then they wonder why half of the watch go sick at some point within the next 2 or 3 weeks, because when I had that I came in.
Case point being December 1999 my Watch Manager came into work for 4 days running looking exceptionally ill before going sick for about a week with flu. This dedication to duty not only gave me the flu for the first time in my life, but, left me with asthma at the end of it.
Mind you, the only thing I thought about at the time, and now whenever I'm taking my puffer is, "At least he didn't let the team down".
Rant over


The Greebs

[Nogbad the Bad]

Nice post, Greebson :D

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[AyrTC]

:confused: mmmm.....

something missing

AyrTC

[Jerricho]

Greebs has a great point. How many people get p*ssed off when the person they are sitting next to is coughing and spluttering all over you? Would anybody actually have the balls to tuen around and say "Hey, dude's sick. Get him/her out of here!". And chances are the lurgie being shared is going to hit you during your days off as well. If you're sick - stay the hell away!

However, It does become easy to tell who the "dodgy divers" are on the watch. You know the one who checks the day sheets to see how many staff are in for the next day (which usually happens to be Weekend). Or you get the "set-up" dive with this as well..........check the day sheet, see how many staff are on, then towards the end of the shift suddenly has symptom over-load.