Massive Delays ?
Thread Starter
Massive Delays ?
When the current AAVA agreement finishes on 31st December, I am wondering what excuse NATS "management" will come up with to explain the resultant delays to the airlines ?
Any thoughts, anyone ?
Any thoughts, anyone ?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What situation in TC?
LACC is the only unit where days were committed to and paid for in advance. As I understand it there is no ability for TC to use AAVAs until an extension to the present agreement or a new agreement is introduced.
Not sure what relevance the end of March has. I believe the agreement just states that days can be carried forward into 2004.
LACC is the only unit where days were committed to and paid for in advance. As I understand it there is no ability for TC to use AAVAs until an extension to the present agreement or a new agreement is introduced.
Not sure what relevance the end of March has. I believe the agreement just states that days can be carried forward into 2004.
Last edited by 250 kts; 23rd Dec 2003 at 23:34.
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
250 kts is right. No AVA's. Simple.
We have had a few instances during the year in EGLL tower that staff shortage has reuqired increased spacing and mega-delays. Nogbad's question is a great one. What will management say?
Those government fines will be hanging over their heads as well.
We have had a few instances during the year in EGLL tower that staff shortage has reuqired increased spacing and mega-delays. Nogbad's question is a great one. What will management say?
Those government fines will be hanging over their heads as well.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southampton
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understood that all AVAAs committed to had to be worked by the end of March or the payments would have to be returned. I stand corrected if this is not the case. Anyway, it is irrelevent if TC have no more available.
What will management say? They could offer overtime as per the Staff Handbook and claim we are working to an unofficial overtime ban when few take them up on it.
They will blame the trials in Bournemouth as an unavoidable drain on manpower. They may also blame training at LACC as management has agreed to take a service hit to provide extension training for single valid ATCOs up to the end of April.
There are any number of excuses NATS can trot out to the Industry to justify not having enough staff in the ops room(s). But will the airlines buy it?
What will management say? They could offer overtime as per the Staff Handbook and claim we are working to an unofficial overtime ban when few take them up on it.
They will blame the trials in Bournemouth as an unavoidable drain on manpower. They may also blame training at LACC as management has agreed to take a service hit to provide extension training for single valid ATCOs up to the end of April.
There are any number of excuses NATS can trot out to the Industry to justify not having enough staff in the ops room(s). But will the airlines buy it?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But what is the feeling at the units about Prospect holding firm?- is there the possibility of a backlash or are the members content that the agreement is on hold. I know the vast majority were worked at LACC but how do the folks at LTCC/LL feel about the situation?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's see if I get this right <G>, NATS is made up of a bunch of airlines and the BAA airports folks. So NATS is going to have problems with staffing and they are going to lie to themselves ( the airlines ) who are part owners of the system...? I think I have it... NO WONDER the Brits put out such good comedy, they learn it in everyday life <G>... I think it gives all new meaning to Fawlty Towers <BEG>...
Best
Scott
Best
Scott
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<snort> Oh the thoughts of all this are wonderful... You have put a smile on my face <G>... Would that be Ham and Cheese as Basil Faulty and that govt. lady as his wife <G>???
Happy Holidays
Scott
Happy Holidays
Scott
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: EGTT
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Further repercussion to end of AAVAs at TC is that the South TVC ( Simulator training course for students - for those unsure of the abbreviation) due to run for winter and spring of 2004 has had to be abruptly curtailled, with with students being sent back to the watches to commence training, or not, from Jan 11th.
Main reason given was lack of instructors for the TVC with the East training going on.
So AC still need AAVAs despite giving away a third of their airspace over the last few months!
Hope they roster the AAVAs better than in the past .
40612 carrying hazardous cargo - but no WMD
Main reason given was lack of instructors for the TVC with the East training going on.
So AC still need AAVAs despite giving away a third of their airspace over the last few months!
Hope they roster the AAVAs better than in the past .
40612 carrying hazardous cargo - but no WMD
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Orestra
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Amazingly situation in Spain is similar. AAL's agreement finishing december 31st with no renewal will lead to understaffed units. LECM reducing capacity by 60%. LEMG with two operative positions, one in the Twr (CDL+GND+LCL) and another in APP (ARR+DEP), will reduce acceptance to 12 acft per hour instead of the average 35. Whising all parts negotiating to reach a late solution before chaos affect Airports again.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
40612,
Not sure where you get the figure of a third of the airspace disappearing. Yes S33 was moved to SCOACC-this was the quietest sector at LACC in terms of movements but it's interaction with S10/11 caused inproportionate delays. The remaining airspace has been filled to capacity ever since,handled by the same number of ATCOs.
I assume that AAVAs were not being actually used in the simulator at LTCC or were they??-just that the staff that should have been released from the Ops room can no longer be spared. Let's face it management have only known the deal ends for the last 18 months!!
Not sure where you get the figure of a third of the airspace disappearing. Yes S33 was moved to SCOACC-this was the quietest sector at LACC in terms of movements but it's interaction with S10/11 caused inproportionate delays. The remaining airspace has been filled to capacity ever since,handled by the same number of ATCOs.
I assume that AAVAs were not being actually used in the simulator at LTCC or were they??-just that the staff that should have been released from the Ops room can no longer be spared. Let's face it management have only known the deal ends for the last 18 months!!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Near VTUU or EGPX
Age: 65
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sectors 10 and 11 filled to capacity?
Not on lots of my night shifts, when there aren't enough of you at LACC, and we route a lot of Eastbound traffic through ScACC airspace to help you out.
Why, all this time after LACC opening, are there still not enough staff ?
Not on lots of my night shifts, when there aren't enough of you at LACC, and we route a lot of Eastbound traffic through ScACC airspace to help you out.
Why, all this time after LACC opening, are there still not enough staff ?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southampton
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Why, all this time after LACC opening, are there still not enough staff ? "
We did not have nearly enough staff when we opened, training did not start in earnest until 9 months after O date and with retirements, resignations, long term sickness and transfers out of the unit we are not much better off now than we were then.
Nights are a special case. Initial Validation at LACC is on a single sector rather than a LAG (or full suite as it was at LATCC). Nights are staffed on bodies not validations, so often there are not enough fully valid staff available to man the nights or occasionally enough staff but not with the right validations.
We did not have nearly enough staff when we opened, training did not start in earnest until 9 months after O date and with retirements, resignations, long term sickness and transfers out of the unit we are not much better off now than we were then.
Nights are a special case. Initial Validation at LACC is on a single sector rather than a LAG (or full suite as it was at LATCC). Nights are staffed on bodies not validations, so often there are not enough fully valid staff available to man the nights or occasionally enough staff but not with the right validations.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TFC,
What a load of bollo**s!!!
When is any sector filled to capacity in the middle of the night????
The only reason there are not enough of us on the nights is if there is sickness in which case management take a decision to run the nights short and re-route the traffic. Remember we are governed by SRATCOH or does it mysteriously not apply at your unit at night??? This situation only happens very infrequently and it is not LACC that you are helping out but the customers.
Very little is re-routed through S33 to avoid S10/11 but I would be interested to see the evidence which suggests otherwise.
As for not enough staff see Arkady's response. The question also shows remarkable naivity about your knowledge of the training at LACC. It is impossible to go from a unit that just about had enough staff to one which requires more to operate it and produce sufficient people in under 2 years. However should you wish to volunteer for a posting you will be made most welcome and no doubt a rapid validation will ensue together with the accompanying amount of full double night duties-maybe you'd like to volunteer for N/Sea and CLN???
What a load of bollo**s!!!
When is any sector filled to capacity in the middle of the night????
The only reason there are not enough of us on the nights is if there is sickness in which case management take a decision to run the nights short and re-route the traffic. Remember we are governed by SRATCOH or does it mysteriously not apply at your unit at night??? This situation only happens very infrequently and it is not LACC that you are helping out but the customers.
Very little is re-routed through S33 to avoid S10/11 but I would be interested to see the evidence which suggests otherwise.
As for not enough staff see Arkady's response. The question also shows remarkable naivity about your knowledge of the training at LACC. It is impossible to go from a unit that just about had enough staff to one which requires more to operate it and produce sufficient people in under 2 years. However should you wish to volunteer for a posting you will be made most welcome and no doubt a rapid validation will ensue together with the accompanying amount of full double night duties-maybe you'd like to volunteer for N/Sea and CLN???