Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)

[BEagle]

It was always good to take folk flying in the Tin Triangle. But due to the hazards associated with rear crew escape, this was normally only allowed during high level transits or MRR boat-spotting trips.

Certainly, whenever we carried passengers, they went through the Crew Escape Trainer. The only exception was during Giant Voice, when we had a one-off approval to take a USAF Colonel on a high level trip - he was given a thorough brief at the aircraft and practised the rapid egress as best as could be achieved without knackering the kit.

There were only a few problems really with pax. One was the lad who'd flown over to Goose with us and had chundered in the ration box without having told anyone; it was only a few days later that we discovered what was causing the awful smell in the block lounge....:yuk:

The other was with a WRAF who came on an MRR trip with us. Unlike most large aircraft, V-bombers didn't have 'relief facilities' except for that horrid pee-tube. Which was clearly designed for men only....:uhoh:

So various proposals were suggested. These varied from a fire bucket in the visual bomb aiming position to a funnel connected to the normal pee-tube. Which required 2 hands, so would have required a delicate balancing act -tricky in a one-piece immersion suit. In the end we decided on the bucket. "What's that for?", she asked. "Err, well, it's the ladies' loo" :ooh:...... " After working out how on earth she was going to struggle out of a life preserver, immersion suit and bunny suit, then perch over the fire bucket she announced that there wouldn't be any problem - but she might want to nip off smartish after landing! Anyway, she enjoyed her trip (she'd come all the way from an Area Radar Unit as she was a very keen 'passenger' and had flown in most RAF aircraft) - and the bucket wasn't needed!

I flew in the back of a Shacklebomber once from Lossie to Leuchars, courtesy of 8 Sqn. Together with a very nervous young WRAF Fighter Controller flying down to meet her boyfriend on one of the F-4 squadrons. After we landed at Leuchars, the Air Engineer told her that he needed the flying suit and boots back. "But I'm not wearing anything underneath", she announced. "No problem to me, dear", he replied, "Get on with it". Wonderful chaps, Air Engineers...:ok:

Being a bit Sir Galahad, I asked if she could send the kit back via R&D. With a "You miserable git" expression from the Air Engineer (quite understandable), this was accepted as they hadn't time to wait for her to get changed in the locker room before pottering off on their AEW trip. "Just keep the silly b*tch away fom the props when you get out though, would you", he asked. So I sent her boots and suit on as promised - she didn't even have the manners either to thank me or thank 8 Sqn for having flown her. Oh well, not all non-flying passengers were quite so ungrateful.

[27mm]

Ah, BEags, your post reminded me of that tale of the WRAF ATC lady that was flown as pax in one of Coningsberg's F-4s, by none other than Maj D-y. After the trip, the lady and the Maj were in Flying Clothing handing back the kit, when she said to the Maj "What shall I do with this flying suit I borrowed?" He replied in deadpan manner (as only the Maj could) "Just throw it in the corner - I'll sniff it later..."

[BEagle]

Yes, indeed - that's just the sort of thing The Major might say!

A fine chap indeed!

Ah - the days of the pre-PC air force. That'd probably be 'harrassment' in 2009!

[Pontius Navigator]

There was of course the space cadet at Scampton who, when the aircraft blew up, evacuated the aircraft with his parachute and static line still connected. The chute deployed as he departed stage left.

I guess thinbgs tightened up considerably as gravity took its inevitable toll. When first on the beast we often flew unstraped and bone domes off, even at low level. Just 5 years later I wore a Mk 2 hat all the time and also parachute, even when going down tot he prone position. I would only remove it for high level astro or where I had to get into awkward spaces for fuse changing.

[50+Ray]

In my day we always did a dedicated evacuation trainer session before going away on a Ranger, with the Crew Chief(s). That generally covered us for the BTR requirements.
I well remember the comment of the late Al White when he was instructing in the OCU Groundschool that 'his rear crew never actually volunteered for one, or asked for one, even though they were the ones who had to do the gymnastics to get out'.
I did a Goose trip on 7th seat myself once, and certainly went through the escape trainer!

[HTB]

Whoever thought of calling those thinly padded platforms "seats" had a strange sense of humour and little knowledge of furniture. On long multi-leg transits to the Pacific, I was soft hearted enough to give up part of the time from my comfy Nav Rad seat to the two crew chiefs who were required to keep the beast moving (unless a fault developed in Hickalulu of course). Saved trampling all over them when taking sun shots through the roof.

We invariably did an escape drill with the two crew chiefs prior to deploying - they soon learned to be quick off the mark to avoid 14 stone of high speed nav trying to overtake them.

As for changing fuses, I confined myself to 28v; no way I was crawling over the entrance/exit door to grope around among the 400v b*ggers. Hard hats and straps were usually worn only for take off to TOC and from TOD to landing (and on the rare occasions when we left our lofty perch to do a "self-probe on a surface contact - yes, alright, it was 27 MRR and the other role).

[Swingwing2]

Wonder if you guys know anything about the crew that signed this old Eric Day limited edition print I bought. XH560, 50 Sqn Tankers flying over Lincoln Cathedral.. I've found some history on the aircraft, it was even at Marham when I was until it was despatched. The crews names are Bill Burnett, Roger Daneford, Hugh Davis, Ken Dennison, Dennis Cheetham and the late Eric Day has signed it too. Appreciate any info ref the crew.

[Pontius Navigator]

Bill Burnett, IIRC, made at least wg cdr. Hugh Davis was very much in to the bare knuckle stuff - combat survival - some years before your print he was involved in rear crew drogue gun operated parachutes.

He was at Akrotiri throwing dummies out of a Shacklebomber flying at about 300 kts. I believe the drogue guns worked perfectly but in the end the idea was abandoned as it would have led to the rear crew moving aroung the cabin with a live drogue gun.

[BEagle]

Not sure if it's the same chap, Pontius....

Swingwing2, if you PM me with your e-mail address, I will pass it on to one of the crew members mentioned in your post.

Quite a rogues' gallery you've got there!

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, may be not, but if Hugh was a small welshman with a dry SOH and possibly a black moustache?

[Airey Belvoir]

Ah c'mon Pontious - you're definitely spinning a line - Shacklebomber - 300 kts??? :E

[threeputt]

I remember him well.

3P:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

AB, not at all. It was in a power dive over the Akrotiri Salt Lake. Did a small number of drops, RTB UK and I believe scraped. Of course it just might have been converted to AEW :}

It was about 1971 with the Nimrod ramping up.

PS, I have done over 250 kts IAS in the Lancaster in level flight.

[green granite]

Did a highly unoficial ride in a victor while it was on a trial at Scampton that I was involved in (the nav rad wasn't flying) I asked "how do it get out in an emergency" the reply from the AEO was "don't worry I'll throw you out as soon as the door is open and the parachute will open automatically"

Yea ok. :hmm:

[kestrel539]

Hello,
Hope you dont mind a lurker butting in, but I found these in the back of a scrapbook, from the NZ Evening Post , Oct 26th, 1959.
May be of interest
http://picasaweb.google.com/kestrel539/Scan?authkey=Gv1sRgCO-1sNu_98jWCQ#5313657012292984370
http://picasaweb.google.com/kestrel539/Scan?authkey=Gv1sRgCO-1sNu_98jWCQ#5313657141389663090
http://picasaweb.google.com/kestrel539/Scan?authkey=Gv1sRgCO-1sNu_98jWCQ#5313657265791550338
Incident hapened at Ohakea New Zealand; pilot reported to be Sqd Ldr
A A Smalles. XH 498

[kestrel539]

B**ger, seemed to have cocked that up.
Anybody know how to attach scanned photo's?

[Fitter2]

B**ger, seemed to have cocked that up.
Anybody know how to attach scanned photo's?


Fear not, all you need is just around the corner -

http://tinyurl.com/cm4zvj

I recommend the www.tinypic.com (http://www.tinypic.com) route, it's pretty foolproof (not implying anything, you understand).

[green granite]

kestrel539 Read this thread :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/203481-image-posting-pprune-guide.html

[Airey Belvoir]

Pontious - forgive the scepticism. It results from a 20nm climb to 3000' in a Mk3 Phase 3 out of Sharjah!

Managed to get myself a trip on "the bomber" during the rehearsal for the 75th at Marham. Fabulous, fabulous and never to be forgotten.

[kestrel539]

Thanks Gent's.
Try these
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu277/kestrel539/1.gif[/IMG]
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu277/kestrel539/3a.gif[/IMG]
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu277/kestrel539/2a.gif[/IMG]

[BEagle]

More photos and information here:

w w w . thunder - and - lightnings . co . uk/vulcan/gallery3.html
(You'll need to cut and paste the link, then delete the spaces - some net-nanny won't allow the URL to be displayed correctly....)

:(

[TheVulcan]

Haynes are doing a Vulcan manual like they did for the Spitfire and the Lancaster. Anybody got good aerial pictures of Vulcan as a tanker or even better, Vulcan to Vulcan refuelling?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Mr B, Sir; on page 163 of your excellent book (Vulcan Test Pilot) you have a good picture of Vulcan tankers mating. It's credited to Fred Martin RZF Digital, although it does look very like Mr Cullerne's fine work.

[TheVulcan]

Thanks for input. The picture you refer to is rather distant. I was hoping to get something new and perhaps a closer shot. I only wish someone had taken a picture from the inside but then everyone was so busy. I don't think Paul Cullerne took the picture otherwise Harry Holmes would have it at Woodford.

[forget]

..... or even better, Vulcan to Vulcan refuelling? See Andy Leitch's excellent site -

Vulcans in Camera - vp Frameset (http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/tankers/index.htm)

[TheVulcan]

Thanks very much for steer. Hopefully I'll find how to contact Andy Leitch! Currently my emails being bounced.

[cheese bobcat]

I have a video (remember them!) of a Vulcan tanker refuelling several different aircraft including another Vulcan. I am in the process of trying to get it onto a DVD. Hopefully I'll manage soon!

By the by, I have somewhere a still of a Vulcan dropping an LGB. I'll try and find it in the next week or so.

[TheVulcan]

DVD sounds great. Looking forward to seeing it and any other unusual pictures.

[Once_an_Erk]

As a newbie, I've just had a fascinating afternoon ploughing through this thread - so many memories stirred!

Me, Coningsby in 61 on 12 (Canberras) - 12 disbands then reforms (with 9 Sqdn) to re-equip with Vulc B2. First V worked on - XL385 on acceptance check from Avro's. I was actually on 12 Squadron (CO W/Cdr Largeson) - but every body wanted to have a go at these beasts and I blagged a job with the ECM bay corporal (we were both on the darts team at the Mucky Duck) and we fitted 385 up with her very first Shrimp/Diver/Palm/Saga kit.
Our first on 12 was XH560 - a retread (I think from Scampton), but she'd just had a major so was freshly painted and clean (unlike the other ex-Scampton dogs that followed her).
Went through the Cuban Missile crisis week, pulled QRA for Xmas and then in the New Year posted Scampton.
I was ARF (BD) - NBS for those not au-fait - and at Scampton moved on to System Fitter (Sys Fitt) - we looked after the marriage Blue Steel - Vulcan electronic systems.
Watched poor old 385 burn on the end of the runway and 576 career across the grass and clip the Tower. Happily nobody hurt in either episode.
Lots of dets, Mickey Finns/Micks etc. 7 Rangers 1 Giant Voice and a spell at BCDU as a draughtsman doing system diagrams for APs.

Left the V force in 71 for a new life with Buccaneers. - and guess what - back to Shiny 12!

[sisemen]

Haynes are doing a Vulcan manual like they did for the Spitfire and the Lancaster

Hopefully they won't recommend the following method for undercarriage retraction!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/VulcanatMacrihanish.jpg

(RAF Wittering EOD team blowing it off it's legs at Macrihanish ready for fire practice)

[Once_an_Erk]

Dug out old tech training notes today to answer a question on the Nigger thread and came up with some stuff that dots the odd i and crosses a t here and there from last year on this thread.

Red Steer (Mk1) began life as AI 20 - code name Green Willow- and it was seriously proposed to fit as main radar in the Lightning! Built by Ekco.
Ferranti won the Lightning job, of course, and from the Lightning AI 23 grew Blue Parrot (Buccaneers). From Blue Parrot Ferranti developed the proposed fire control radar for TSR2. They had perfected the terrain avoidance (note - not terrain following) aspect and were flying it in the Boscombe Down Buccaneer when TSR2 was murdered.
Ferranti had pretty much bet the farm on the TSR2 project and its cancellation played a significant part in the demise of the Edinburgh company.

[philrigger]

;)

Beagle.

Ref Post #1470; Who on the photo is Caligula ?

Phil.

[BEagle]

Ask anyone who a member the 'Zimbabwe Air Legion' at the end of the '70s!

I understand that he later gave a VSO a good listening to, following a certain Vulcan transit to ASI during Op Corporate. But I might be wrong....

[Blacksheep]

Ferranti had pretty much bet the farm on the TSR2 project and its cancellation played a significant part in the demise of the Edinburgh company.I had a job interview with Ferranti in 1977 so they evidently soldiered on for long after the demise of TSR2. I believe they finally went out of business in 1993.

[FATTER GATOR]

Sadly I did not fly the Vulcan.
Just couldn't get rid of the Kinloss bungee.
I feel a bit left out reading this. Looks like happy days!
:ok:

[Once_an_Erk]

B/Sheep - True, but "Soldering on" is all they did. They survived on mod programmes for the RN mainly. But never delivered another system. They tried an Airmobile ground defence system, but lost to Plessey. Not sure who did the Radar for the Navy harriers - could have been Ferranti - but even that couldn't fill the hole.

[tornadoken]

The business history of Ferranti is complex. They were 10% of estimated TSR.2 R&D expense at the chop, for Inertial Navigator, Nav/Attack Radar, and early-scheme Laser Rangefinder and Marked Target Receiver, all derived in collaboration with Westinghouse. If BAC had accepted Wilson's fixed price offer to continue with TSR.2, 50 ship sets were on offer - rather less than Ferranti's workload on guidance for Bloodhound and Thunderbird 2 SAMs. Schemes then abounded for AFVG/UKVG, while fitting Blue Parrot to Buccaneer S.2, and Sister Firm/licencee on AWG11/12 in F-4K/M. On (to be) Tornado IDS/GR.1, they won Inertial Navigator and LR/MTR, and for the TI mapping/TFR, UK Sister Firm/licencee: an unprecedented production programme. Then Blue Fox for Sea Harrier FRS.1, and Blue Vixen SHAR F/A.2; then the antenna sub-contract from Marconi for AI.24 Foxhunter in Tornado F.3. The LR/MTR went into some Jaguars and Harriers.

In November,1987 they became Ferranti International Signal plc. The US end proved fraudulent and took Ferranti down. In December,1993 the detritus was taken over by GEC-Marconi; they won, in EuroRadar, ECR-90 Captor for Typhoon; merged into new BAE SYSTEMS, 1999 and were sold 2007 into SELEX, Finmeccanica. The Crewe Toll, Edinburgh site survives all this name changing.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

There are a few here who did.

Thanks to Philrigger for this one.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/philrigger71/35Squadron1966.jpg

[Gravelbelly]

True, but "Soldering on" is all they did. They survived on mod programmes for the RN mainly. But never delivered another system. They tried an Airmobile ground defence system, but lost to Plessey. Not sure who did the Radar for the Navy harriers - could have been Ferranti - but even that couldn't fill the hole.

Nope. they got rescued after going bust, and finally went bust again in 1989/90 after James Guerin and the International Signal hole in the books ($400 million, IIRC) as described by tornadoken. Ferranti sponsored me through University, and gave me my first job after graduation (I stayed at Crewe Toll for ten years and three name changes).

Yes, they delivered systems. Seaspray for Naval Lynx (and occasional other platforms, including one fast patrol boat), Blue Vixen for SHAR FA.2, Blue Kestrel for Naval Merlin, ECR.90 (now CAPTOR) for Typhoon, AMSAR (now CAESAR) for Typhoon Tranche 3. All of these products were led from Crewe Toll except the last.

Strictly speaking, Blue Vixen was a shared project with Ericsson, so the PS/05a in the early Gripen is very similar (but not identical) in hardware terms; the software is totally different between the two.

You could argue that being able to design and manufacture an LTM for ground forces, the PGM that it guided, the LRMTS and LTM pod on the launch aircraft, the radar and nav system to get it there and the DASS to protect it, the system to plan the mission and record its success or failure, and all of the associated test equipment to make sure that these stay working - is a systems capability.

On the Nav front, they won the nav system for early Ariane rockets, Jaguar, and Tornado (and nearly Challenger 2 until they decided GPS was the way forward.) In fact, several of the avionic subsystems in Tornado GR.1 was Ferranti design or responsibility - radar, INS, moving map display, LRMTS, LTM pod, not sure about the HUD.

There was a succession of ATE equipments for use in RAF kit - if you've ever seen something with the power of a ZX-81 in a full-height 19" rack called FIST, then that was the Ferranti Inertial Systems Tester. I spent my summer vacations from University working with the mostly-Bellshill-based team that designed those and the AST-1000 and AST-1200 (a rugged test kit for Harrier GR.5).

That was Silverknowes - who also went on to design DIRCM aka Nemesis, and the DASS for the WAH-64 before they moved along the road to Crewe Toll.

At Robertson Avenue and then South Gyle, the Product Support, Electro-Optics, and Display Systems Divisions designed Mission Data Recorders and Mission Planning systems, not to mention Head-Up displays, NVGs, and high-brightness screens. They also designed and delivered TIALD, and were working on the Al Hakim PGMs for UAE. Somewhere in the mix was a artillery-sound-locating system.

Before merger with International Signal, Ferranti Defence Systems employed over 6,000 people in Edinburgh, over half of whom were engineering graduates. They didn't just design the kit, they manufactured it too - the central machine shop at Crewe Toll was an impressive sight to behold. Five years later, it was down to 3,000 people. Strangely, there are a few technology firms based in Edinburgh because of the availability of engineering experience...

[Pontius Navigator]

Gravelbelly, thanks, maybe start a thread "Did you ever work for, use or service Ferranti kit?" :)

[MMEMatty]

Back to the Vulcan.

I remember reading in a magazine article on the Vulcan a number of years ago, that one of the options being considered along with Skybolt, was to hang 2 nuclear armed Gnat figters under the wing, and to launch them against the Soviets from some point outside their airspace. No mention was made of how they were expected to return.

In the same article, there was mention of also fitting Skybolt to the VC-10 (3 Skybolt Missiled) and to the BAC 1-11 (2 Missiles).

Can anyone shed any light on this? I've long since lost the magazine article, else I would post more info. I think the Magazine was called "Take Flight" or similar.

Matty

[ChristiaanJ]

Matty,

Sounds a bit like this (also a delta):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/ChristiaanJ/raf-concorde_blue_steel.jpg

CJ

[Wader2]

Matty,

I have the details at home.

I am not sure, from memory, but it may have been 3.

As a bomber-fighter escort on a strike mission recovery would not have been an issue. At least if we had accepted one-way missions which we, unlike the French, did not.

Not in the book, but a potentially more uesful function, would have been to tote the Gnats at a forward CAP station say 200 miles out and release them into an attacking bomber stream.

I also seem to recall that it was a plan for a Vulcan derivative, considerably larger than than the B2.

Another aircraft that would have rivalled the B70 was the Avro supersonic bomber. Again, details at home, but I seem to recall the best bit was the undercarriage. It needed 8 boggies rather than the Vulcan 4 but te plane was to jettison 4 of these so that the wheel bay would not be too large. The book didn't address the problem of arresting 8 boggies pairs travelling at 160 kts nor the problem of providing spare boggies at staging posts around the world.

[MAINJAFAD]

Nope. they got rescued after going bust, and finally went bust again in 1989/90 after James Guerin and the International Signal hole in the books ($400 million, IIRC) as described by tornadoken. Ferranti sponsored me through University, and gave me my first job after graduation (I stayed at Crewe Toll for ten years and three name changes).Yes, they delivered systems. Seaspray for Naval Lynx (and occasional other platforms, including one fast patrol boat), Blue Vixen for SHAR FA.2, Blue Kestrel for Naval Merlin, ECR.90 (now CAPTOR) for Typhoon, AMSAR (now CAESAR) for Typhoon Tranche 3. All of these products were led from Crewe Toll except the last.Strictly speaking, Blue Vixen was a shared project with Ericsson, so the PS/05a in the early Gripen is very similar (but not identical) in hardware terms; the software is totally different between the two.You could argue that being able to design and manufacture an LTM for ground forces, the PGM that it guided, the LRMTS and LTM pod on the launch aircraft, the radar and nav system to get it there and the DASS to protect it, the system to plan the mission and record its success or failure, and all of the associated test equipment to make sure that these stay working - is a systems capability.On the Nav front, they won the nav system for early Ariane rockets, Jaguar, and Tornado (and nearly Challenger 2 until they decided GPS was the way forward.) In fact, several of the avionic subsystems in Tornado GR.1 was Ferranti design or responsibility - radar, INS, moving map display, LRMTS, LTM pod, not sure about the HUD.There was a succession of ATE equipments for use in RAF kit - if you've ever seen something with the power of a ZX-81 in a full-height 19" rack called FIST, then that was the Ferranti Inertial Systems Tester. I spent my summer vacations from University working with the mostly-Bellshill-based team that designed those and the AST-1000 and AST-1200 (a rugged test kit for Harrier GR.5).That was Silverknowes - who also went on to design DIRCM aka Nemesis, and the DASS for the WAH-64 before they moved along the road to Crewe Toll.At Robertson Avenue and then South Gyle, the Product Support, Electro-Optics, and Display Systems Divisions designed Mission Data Recorders and Mission Planning systems, not to mention Head-Up displays, NVGs, and high-brightness screens. They also designed and delivered TIALD, and were working on the Al Hakim PGMs for UAE. Somewhere in the mix was a artillery-sound-locating system.Before merger with International Signal, Ferranti Defence Systems employed over 6,000 people in Edinburgh, over half of whom were engineering graduates. They didn't just design the kit, they manufactured it too - the central machine shop at Crewe Toll was an impressive sight to behold. Five years later, it was down to 3,000 people. Strangely, there are a few technology firms based in Edinburgh because of the availability of engineering experience...Off Topic...You could add the 1986 Bloodhound 2 LCP (new computer and displays for both the RAF and the Swiss) upgrade and The RAF ADP Bloodhound C2 system to that list, along with FIAPDS (based on the Ferranti CHARGE display processor). If memory serves all of that was done out of Wythenshaw.

[benmac]

Is there anyone still alive and kicking out there who remembers me I wonder? Having flown with 1X Sqn from 62 to 66 at Coningsby and Cottesmore, I then went to 230 OCU at Finningley as a Ground School instructor (66 to 69). Does anyone remember helping me to push the ruddy great plywood Vulcan mock-up round Room 20 at Finningley while I explained the MFS switching for all manner of approaches including the dreaded back-beam ILS? Those were the days of chalk and talk and man-sized visual aids!

[Wader2]

I thought you had a house in Spain?

We were with Selectia and a very nice salesman mentioned this ever so nice retired wg cdr in Alicante.

Then there was Captain Crighton who recounted how a very young BenM had a go at killing him in a Canberra, oh, must be about 50 years ago.

We were on the same course when you opted for the posting to Scampton.

No more clues. PM me if you are lost.

[benmac]

Wader2: Sorry. You've managed to lose me.

One, I never had a posting to Scampton in all of
my 35 years in the Service.

Two, I did fly Canberras 50 years ago (1X Sqn again)
but this Captain Chrighton was obviously so shaken
by the incident that he's forgotten who the pilot was!

[XT661]

If you are the Benmac that I gave a lift to a couple of times between St M and Kinloss in a Canberra sometime about 1980; the I remember you!

Regards.

[Pontius Navigator]

XT, that's your man.

[XT661]

Apart from the fact that I can't spell "then" I thought it might be! I feel that I may know you as well. We seem to be of a similar age and background but, as "saltminers" sets in, and after an afternoons sunshine enhanced refreshment, I might need more clues as to your real persona! (Spelling may have let me down again!)

[Blacksheep]

All this talk of upgraded Vulcans, TSR2 and the like ignores the fact that the "V" Bomber Force was part of a NATO Strategic Force that provided Mutually Assured Destruction as a deterrent against a Soviet first strike nuclear attack. The V Force also served as an independent deterrent against an attack against the UK, regardless of whether the rest of NATO joined in or not.

The fact that I can sit here writing this post suggests that the nuclear deterrent worked perfectly well as it was constructed and without building any fanciful new aircraft. To all those detractors who suggest that the Victors, Vulcans and Valiants never saw active service, or that the Vulcan's first and only operational use was in the Falklands, I say "Nonsense!" The V Force was in permanent full-time active service from the first operational Valiant Squadron until the deployment of Polaris.

Speaking as just one chap who stood on a deserted QRA dispersal reflecting upon the fact that there were no standing orders for what to do next (except perhaps to pray), we did the job we were asked to do - our duty - and like those who went before us and those who came afterwards, we were prepared for the consequences if our efforts failed. I'm eternally grateful, both for myself and for the human race, for the fact that our defensive efforts were successful and it never came to that.

[Gainesy]

reflecting upon the fact that there were no standing orders for what to do next

The cunning plan at Akrotiri, hatched over too many Brandy Sours, was to get the Vs off then all jump on the Hercs and head for Jo'burg.:)

[passy777]

Every time I hear a reference to a Vulcan reminds me of the time when I was at school (many years ago).

Sitting in a boring history lesson, my mate who was sitting a couple of rows down from me put up his hand for the teachers attention and stated

"Sir, there's a plane on fire and it's crashing"

All of the class rushed to the window and sure enough, there was this delta winged plane obviously out of control, with smoke/flames emanating from it and was hurtling to the ground. What was also noticable was one of the occupants ejecting. Apparently there were two crew, however, due to the distance, only one was visible to us.

It transpired that the Vulcan pilot had attempted to guide the malfunctioning plane out to the North Sea, however, it came down near a village (Wingate, Co. Durham) just missing a school, however, fortunately, there were no casualties.

Could have been disastrous, however, it turned out to be one of our better history lessons!

[ZH875]

Story about the demise of XM610 here (http://www.neam.co.uk/wingate.html)

[passy777]

ZH875

Thanks for that.

Although I was aware that there were two crew members on board at the time I saw the plane in distress, I was not aware or certainly could not recall that there were another three who ejected earlier over Northumberland.

The report by Jim Rutland is very detailed and brings back memories of that day. Bearing in mind some of the densely populated areas within the unintended flight path of the stricken plane, that incident could have been catastrophic.

[Blacksheep]

It was catastrophic from the Crew Chief's point of view. They spent more time with their beloved than they did with their wives...

[Nick_Me]

I'm not military background, this is really just a request for information if at all possible.
My dad was a navigator in the Raf and flew in the SAC bombing competition in the seventies in a vulcan, he then moved onto phantoms and was unfortunately killed in a training accident in 1978. I have spoken to a couple of ex RAF guys to find out a bit more about him, as the information I have prior to those conversations was sketchy to say the least.
Does anyone have any pictures of the actual Vulcan used, my dad or any stories at all of base activities or even just of memories that can all help me to keep building on the information I have of my dad.

His name was Chris Meade, I have already spoken to Geoff Coop who was part of the aircrew who took part in the succesful SAC comp.

The point of asking this question now 30 years after my dad's death, is to know him better so i can let my kids know about him.
Any help or information given, no matter how seemingly insignificant - is greatly appreciated.

Kind regards

Nick

[Yellow Sun]

Help with any info pls

Nick_Me

I have sent you a PM.

Rgds
YS

[Pontius Navigator]

Nick_Me, yes, I knew Chris but not very well. He was on one of the sqns when I was in the wing at Waddo. I don't really have any memories that I can share except to say he was a good bloke.

I don't remember him going to F4s nor that he had been killed. Still, a long time ago and one of many killed in those days. Very sad.

[Padhist]

Hello nick me,
I am sorry I can't help you in your search. My involvment with Vulcans was as a test pilot for the testing of Autamatic/Blind landings.at RAE Bedford.

However I would direct you to VULCANS IN CAMERA if you have not already tried them. Go through GOOGLE

Best wishes Paddy Grogan

[Nick_Me]

PN, Padhist, thanks for your replies, will check on google padhist !

YS, Got Pm and replied thanks very much, look forward to hearing from you again !

Kind regards

Nick

[CariocaCanuck]

Another SLF here and long time lurker who just finished sitting still for 3 hours reading this fascinating thread........

I was an armored officer in the Canadian army from 1976-1983 and one of my old friends and fellow zipperhead lieutenants in our regiment was a chap named Bernie Kennedy, who had recently remustered and joined our unit in 1981 as a medical washout from flight training. Seems he ended up getting a really bad chronic sinus problem under pressurization well into his final months of the course.....to bad for him......but I digress.

He was training to be a back seater (WSO) with 416 Cougar squadron in the CF-101 Voodoo.........based out of CFB Chatham in New Brunswick, just a hop, skip and a jump (in jet terms) from Goose Bay, Labrador. Reading this thread jogged my memory regarding a story he once told me were they had just finished a Genie shot at a Vulcan sitting around FL 550, and they were trying to climb back up to altitude after rolling out inverted and running away to avoid the blast that would have occurred with a war shot.........

Seems the Voodoo was a real handful over FL 500, it just didn't like to fly level, if at all when that high, and was not much of a candidate for snap up attacks because of it's well known and documented pitch up problem, and subsequent departure from controlled flight. So they were trying to get back as high as they could and as level as they could without losing it, and maintain their flight attitude for the 45 or so seconds it took the fire control system to cool the Falcon missile seeker heads, and lock on to the target.

Seems the tin triangle as you call it (great name BTW !!) once it knew they had company, would merely either climb higher, and or, bank steeply one way or the other, out turning the Voodoo easily and breaking the lock, with the Voodoo unable to follow the maneuver.

There was nothing they could do but wave, or shake their fists at it, as they always lost their shot........he said the 3 times he flew against them they could never claim a succesful splash. The Americans B-52's were down under 500' all the time, and the Vulcans would also fly low as well, but the trips "up there" to check on your high altitude visits were the only time the Voodoo boys seemed to get any really enoyable AI fun in his words.

[Barksdale Boy]

Nick_Me

I well remember your father as an excellent plotter on a very good crew - one that would doubtless have shone on GV 1972 had it not been cancelled. I recall Gus Gillies (RIP) telling me that Chris's logs and charts were the most beautifully produced and meticulously kept he had ever seen: high praise from another very accomplished plotter of the same vintage.

Barksdale Boy

[NRU74]

I recall Gus Gillies (RIP) How long ago did Gus die ?

[Barksdale Boy]

NRU74

Have sent you a PM
Barksdale Boy

[HawkerSmocker]

What a great thread. I bring nothing to this other than fond memories of watching Vulcans fly around Offutt AFB during the late 70s/early 80s. Any of you do the Offutt airshow in the Vulcan? Best airshow performer to this day IMHO. Also one time it was probably late 70s, I saw two Vulcans in a vee formation with a B-52 near Offutt, probably 3000 feet msl or less. I wish I had a picture of that.

[Snaga II]

Great thread, very informative. Question: does anyone remember this painting and, maybe, the artist? It was given to me by the widow of Peter Sidebotham -Reed who served on Waddo at that time. I also believe that the painting was displayed at a pub, that Peter ran, close to the airbase. I have attempted to enlarge the signature,it reads JR Jordon.

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt143/drussii/2009_0715Vulcanpainting0001.jpg


http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt143/drussii/2009_0715Vulcanpainting0001-1.jpg

[tinpis]

I did an IR test at Stanstead winter 1979 in a Piper Apache . One of my fellow sufferers was an ex Vulcan driver. We nearly died of exposure in the god awful digs we were in.

[Snaga II]

Regards the above painting the pub concerned was The Wheatsheaf at Waddington. regards

[forget]

Ah, the Wheatsheaf. The car park, 24th May 1969 with the Memsahib's honeymoon chariot following artistic enhancement by Vulcan fixers. :hmm:


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/WOLESELY1500.jpg

[Snaga II]

Very interesting, would that be the maritime version? :=

[euanls]

Yes Indeed. I was on IX Squadron from mid 1965 for about three years. I was a young Nav Radar on my first Squadron. Did the Singapore detachment in 1966 and then later, 44 and 101 Squadron in "the Lincolnshire Air Force."

How did I get to this site? I am sitting in bunkered-down Kabul, having had to wear a tie and suit to visit a Minister and, the tie I selected was the 230 OCU tie. As I was tying it, I realised it had started to fray and, because it was the only blue tie I had and I only had one dark suit with me, I decided that, tonight, I would see if I could source a new one. After all, I did buy it in 1965. You should understand that I am a Scot!!

So, I googled 230 OCU and found this site and, despite the fact that I should have been working for the last few hours, I have thoroughly enjoyed myself, immersing myself in nostalgia. What a pleasure.

I am actually here (from Australia, my home), writing a new generation of USAID health programmes, which do not exclude the PRTs and other military counterinsurgency activities. Interesting, but...

I intend to attend the Vulcan reunion either later this year or next year. We "Defenders of the Realm of Yesteryear" need to reinvigorate ourselves from time to time.

[forget]

I posted this a couple of years ago but it may be worth another look, and also for those who missed it. Tatjana van Vark, runs her own working NBS; in her kitchen apparently. And for BEagle there’s a working Calc 3.

Beautifully mad! The world needs more Tatjanas

Tatjana van Vark ~ Navigation and Bombing System NBS (http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvve/dduck0.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

I have corresponded with Tatjana thorough a 3rd party as she is not into the internet! She would be delighted to meet with anyone who can tell her at first hand how the system worked and was used.

[Blacksheep]

Tatjana has revealed why our NBS was so secret in those days. The RAF was at pains not to let the Russians know that we were using equipment salvaged from WW2 Lancasters, mated with a few dustbins full of cog-wheels (mechanical computers) to navigate to the targets and drop a big bomb. Meanwhile the Russians were at great pains not to let us know that they were using equipment they had built from copies of our own drawings, but manufactured to lower tolerances by conscripted farmers wives. Such was the mad, mad world of mutually assured destruction.

At Nagasaki, Fat Boy detonated over two miles away from the intended ground zero, so getting within a mile with a Yellow Sun would probably have been good enough. :suspect:

[Towlie06]

Hi all, long time since i've been back to this thread! Just thought i would post again asking if anyone knew my father, Trevor Jackson. Flew Vulcans for a fair few years, 101 squardon i think. I am interested in any info/stories! Cheers!

[Pontius Navigator]

I had an email from a Sarah Bennett who had a photo of her father in gan but couldn't find Gan on a map. I tried to reply to the pprune address but that mail box was closed.

I replied by email about 2 weeks ago - zilch. Anyone know Sarah?

As for Trevor Jackson, the name is sort of familiar. I have the impression of a youngish copilot on Mk 1s around 1967.

[Barksdale Boy]

Trevor Jackson was a co-pilot on Viv W*rr***t*n's crew on 101 sqn c1968-70. I think he was then posted to CFS. He used to run the Waddo mess disco - The Gas Tomato.

[Pontius Navigator]

BB, ah, he of the Rolls Royce fans.

Obviously TJ was Mk 2 not Mk 1, but there had been a very high turnover of crews when I got there and 101 was the last to convert.

[OldHaltonian]

Yes, the Vulcan was in three hangar, and as you said Steve was testing for leeks from the door seal. And yes his financee was working in sick quarters, and she did not recognise his body. I recall the incident well as I was working in the Hydraulic and Tyre Bay when the accident happened - on night shift on 17 September 1969. I thought one of the hydraulic jacks I had serviced recently had blown, when I heard the noise. Steve was an SAC and only 20 years old at the time. He was a good mate of all the riggers in the hangar. A very sociable young man. He is buried in Haycombe Cemetery in Bath, Somerset.

[tantalite]

I remember hearing about the door seal incident, I was either at Waddo, GSE 5 Hangar or had just gone to Valley to man the dispersal after my fitters course. As I recall SOP was to put a safety raiser under the door before pressurising and applying the wet finger test. The strong suggestion was that this had not been done, Friday night I believe. I know I felt an amazing sense of loss even though I knew neither of them but coming up to 20 myself makes you realise your mortality.

[SierraWhisky]

I remember a Ben Mac on IX sqn at Cottesmore:)

I was the nav radar on Polly's crew then Bob Jennings. Went to Cyprus with the sqn then to the OCU in 1970 till I finally escaped at the end of 73. I've just found this thread after Googling for some information. I'm sure there are several more here that I should know - love to hear from anyone to catch up on the latest news.

Sam Weller

[Towlie06]

Thanks for the info guys. Any more from anyone would be much appreciated! Could you tell me a bit more about this disco he ran? cheers

[RJM]

This thread is one of the few places I may be able to confirm the following:

In around April or March 1984 I was staying at Coney Weston near Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk.

I was at the local postbox when I heard the noise of a jet and looked up to see quite low to the NW what looked to me like a Vulcan heading SE.

I've done some research, and discovered that the last Vulcans went out of service in March 1984, with 50 Squadron at RAF Waddington. This seems to fit with what I saw.

If I'm right, then I'm pleased to have seen the Vulcan in active service.

Can anyone offer any confirmation of what I saw? It was late in the day and at some distance, but the aircraft appeared to be dark grey. I'm wondering whether it could have been an F111 in delta wing mode.

It's been niggling me for years. Unfortunately, I have no photograph. I didn't expect anything interesting to happen while I posted a letter!

[Barksdale Boy]

Towlie06

Not much to add. Trevor ran the weekly mess disco in a cheerful manner until his posting to CFS (I think) in late 70/early 71 when it was taken over by Bob Waud.

S/W

Any news of Bob Jennings? I had the great pleasure of flying with him on a number of occasions on 50 Sqn.

[skua]

BB

would that be the same Trevor Jackson who was a QFI on my UAS in 1973-4?

Skua

[VictorPilot]

Such is the success of this thread, the Victor people suggested starting a Victor thread! Thought I would let you know as many Vulcan peeps also did Victors!! "Were you ever on Victors" is the new thread. Rgds. Bob

[ZH875]

Just returned from the shops and was surprised to see a very familiar shape in the sky:ok:, looks like transit between Coningsby and Waddington.

Made my Sunday. :)

[Tim McLelland]

RJM - I suppose it depends how far away the "Vulcan" was. Given sufficient distance, all Vulcans looked grey, although I doubt if you could mistake a Vulcan for an F-111 at any distance.

Anyway, in short, the 50 Squadron Vulcans were a mixture. Some wore dark green/medium sea grey camouflage with light aircraft grey undersides. Some were matt finished whilst others (former MRR machines) were gloss finished (our old friend XH558 being one of them). Other aircraft wore wrap-around dark green/dark grey camouflage. However they all had a significant amount of white paint on the undersides (apart from XL426), for their tanker role. There were no grey aircraft, but I guess the wrap-round camouflaged aircraft might well look grey from a distance (XL426, XH561, XL445).

I suppose that an F-111 shouldn't be ruled-out considering your location, but I guess it could have been XL426 - overall camouflage, dark, and still active in April 1984. She's at Southend now of course!

Hope this helps.

[EMHawkins]

Milt,
Excuse the delay in posting a reply but I have been googling trying to find a book on vulcan that mentions OJ as a present for my father, and your post of 2004 came up!

Ossie Hawkins is my grandfather, if you want to know anymore about the 1964 Vulcan incident I can ask him. I know he has said before the descent he undertook that day was not the 1st time nor was it uncommon...

If anyone knows of a good publication on Vulcan that mentions OJ please let me know!

Thanks

Eleanor

[BEagle]

Hello Eleanor,

Tony Blackman's excellent book Vulcan Test Pilot mentions Ossie Hawkins very briefly on page 117.

I have a spare, brand-new copy of the book; send me a Private Message with your details and it'll be yours if you promise to make a suitable donation to the Vulcan to the Sky campaign.

[Milt]

Eleanor

Can only recall brief details of Ossie's deep stall in a Vulcan and his ejection. Must ask Tony Blackman for the details.

Your grandfather and I were on 14 ETPS course at Farnborough. I went on to Boscombe Down and did much of the early pre service trials on the Mk1 Vulcans. Kept in touch with Ossie and - was it Marie - for a while. Think there were two children, so one must be your father. Could never work out how an NZer came to be called Ossie.

Milt

[alisoncc]

Someone mentioned 230OCU previously.

Was groundcrew on BSqdn 230 OCU at Finningley '63-'66. Part of the flying familiarisation training for new crews was flying "asymetrics", with the engines out on one side and full rudder to compensate whilst attempting to fly in a straight line 20 foot above the runway.

We were putting up crowd barriers for a Battle of Britain display alongside the runway when a crew were doing asymetrics on one occasion. Apparently when the instructor requested full power on the shut-down engines, the seated incumbent chose to shut down the other two engines instead, giving it a somewhat limited ability to stay in the air whilst heading straight for us.

The shutdown engines kicked in just as it passed over us at about ten feet. Three of the group ended up visiting the MO after having been blown some fifty feet through the air. I managed to hang on to the ground, but felt the heat of the exhausts, and it wasn't just warm.

Alison

[Pontius Navigator]

alison, actually shutting down the thrusting engines was the better action. Applying power to all engines resulted in the thrusting engines spooling up immediately followed by a spin and crash.

Bringing the dead engines up and reducing power on the thrusting engines arrested this tendency. Clearly too little power in your case.

[alisoncc]

I think what alerted us to there being something wrong was a sudden silence. I was iccy the group assembling the crash barriers, which we had been at for a few days, and were well used to the noise of low flying Vulc's a matter of yards away. So when it went quiet everyone looked around. Then panic hit.

Alison

[Tankertrashnav]

V-Force Reunion website update

Just a heads up that I have just updated the website V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) with some info on signing-in tables for the day. Next week I should be doing a further update with details of how to book for the evening function, so if you are hoping to come to that it is important to check the site out and get your bookings in as soon as I ask for them. NB we are asking for one or two more volunteers to man tables on the day (details on the site). Also please check you are getting the updated version of the site (4 Jan 10) and not the old version (17 Sep 09).

[BUFFBob]

As a 22 year vet of bomber operations "across the pond" I have read your excellent posts with great interest.

One question comes to mind after reading that you were not permitted to fly or even taxi with live weapons aboard.

I understand that you like us had main bases and dispersal bases.

If you were not permitted to fly with weapons on board, how did you get the weapons to your dispersal sites?

Were they pre-positioned at the dispersal sites and then loaded when the alert (QRA?) aircraft arrived on site ?

Also curious about the facilites at the dispersal sites, were there maintenace hangers and crews or was it a bare bones operation.

Thank you for the insight into your operation, it seems things were not much different between our operations.

BB
USAF 1964-1986

[forget]

Welcome BUFF(B-52) Bob, There's some good stuff on your query at

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/264069-v-force-dispersal-query.html

If you were not permitted to fly with weapons on board, how did you get the weapons to your dispersal sites?

During dispersal exercises, code name Mickey Finn, no weapons were ever carried. If the dispersal had been in response to 'politics' then (obviously) they would have been. Never happened.

Also curious about the facilities at the dispersal sites, were there maintenance hangers and crews or was it a bare bones operation.

Varied from bare bones (Pershore comes mind!) to fully operational RAF airfields where a hangar would have been found, if needed.

[Tankertrashnav]

V FORCE REUNION

At the risk of boring you all I have updated the website V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) again. Please take a minute to look at this as it gives details on how to book for the evening reception, and this needs to be done asap if you want to be sure of a ticket. Thanks

TTN

[Pontius Navigator]

One question comes to mind after reading that you were not permitted to fly or even taxi with live weapons aboard.

We did taxi with live weapons although they did not usually do so with a wet Blue Steel missile.

The free-fall force kept one aircraft per squadron at 15 minutes readiness. Every couple of days, say between 5 hours and 72 hours, there would be a practice alert. It might advance only one readiness from, say 15 to 05 which was engines off cockpit readiness. At other times we might then advance to 02. At this point aircraft not on an operational readiness platform (the fingers off the edge of the runway) had just 3 minutes to start engines and taxy to the take-off point. For a 3 aircraft QRA wing the first aircraft would take up position 1000 feet down the main runway, the second at 500 feet and the 3rd on the threshold.

02 might be held for a few minutes but this was of course burning war fuel reserves. When reverting to 15 the aircraft would taxy around the airfield back to dispersal where they would be refuelled.

Aside from QRA, twice per year, a main force generation would be called. This ws Exercise Mick and all serviceable aircraft would be loaded with live weapons. The exercise would be teminated after declaration of RS 02 and 20 odd aircraft, all live-armed, would taxy down the runway. This was the real spooky exercise - the whole of Bomber Command at 2 minutes readiness, live armed, and live target material issued.

I understand that you like us had main bases and dispersal bases.

If you were not permitted to fly with weapons on board, how did you get the weapons to your dispersal sites?

At Alert Condition 1 the force would have been permitted to disperse with live weapons but with the weapons in a safe state. In order to avoid 'confusion' (such as might happen if you heard that nuclear exchange had commenced) crews were not permitted to switch on any radios - navigation or communication - but to transit EMCON Silent and to land at the dispersal airfield either on a Green lamp OR NOT!

Also curious about the facilites at the dispersal sites, were there maintenace hangers and crews or was it a bare bones operation.

As Forget says, bare bones, but some were better fleshed than others.

At Pershore there was a number 5-room caravans (sheer luxury) with one bunk per cabin like a 1st Class Rail Carriage, but the ablutions were in an adjacent block. At Brawdy the caravans were at the wrong end of the runway which required the reacting crews to drive down the active the wrong way. As Bomber Exercises rated higher than any other RAF activity, except for Transport or Air Defence Ops, it was not unknown for crews to drive down the runway with aircraft on the approach.

At Ballykelly, OTOH, our dispersal was the only 'on-airfield' facility with flush toilets. The resident squadrons had to make do with Elsan Chemical toilets. Ballykelly was also an exception in priority terms. A railway line ran across the main runway so the Bomber Controller had to coordinate exercise alerts with the railway timetable.

much different between our operations.

BB
USAF 1964-1986

Questionable! I had a tour round the QRA Facility at Goose Bay. Ours was donw on the cheap for a reason. No sooner had the V-force and missile force been protected by a 'ring of steel' - the Bloodhound SAM box did the CinC decide that dispersal was the way ahead. He argued that the SAM box would guard against surprise attack but that dispersal was essential. he was told 'no more money' so he said he would do it anyway.

I had a tour round SAC too. Again new money and old. Bomber Command HQ was in the WW2 bunker. Until 1967 we had a 2-line comms telescramble upgraded only then to an 8-line system. None of your world-wide comms.

We toyed with a proper ACP but settled on an emergency only ARelay. We trialled an airborne alert too but shelved that as we could not afford the tanker assets.

[BUFFBob]

" Ours was donw on the cheap for a reason. "

It always comes down to money - - - I recall a line from the movie The Right Stuff - - " No bucks, no Buck Rogers ! "

We would typically have 6 BUFFs (per base) on alert at any point in time.

We would fequently "exercise" the alert force, might be just an engine start, might include taxi to the end or the runway (we called it the Hammerhead), or might have been a launch directly from the alert facility.

Another funny name comes to mind - - - when we "taxied" the alert force it was pretty much nose to tail, and with the brakes constantly squealing, it got named "Baby Elephant Walk" !

Have enjoyed reading all the posts, and I sure would have liked to see your briefing, don't per chance have a "power point" (or equivilant) presentation do you ?

Thanks for all the info
BB

Edited to add - - -

"The exercise would be teminated after declaration of RS 02 and 20 odd aircraft, all live-armed, would taxy down the runway. This was the real spooky exercise - the whole of Bomber Command at 2 minutes readiness, live armed, and live target material issued."

We did "generations" too, fueling and loading every available AC and working to make everything possible availible. Often this would be followed by a " minimum interval mass launch " typically about 30 bombers and tankers - - - that was an impressive and awe inspiring sight, even for us "oldtimers". Let me see if I can find a picture or video

O.K. imagine this times 10 - - - sorry to digress from the Vulcan

http://www.afwing.com/intro/b52/b52g%20takeoff.jpg

BB

[ZH875]

I take it they are running on coal and not Jet Fuel. :ouch:

[ChristiaanJ]

BUFFBob,
Is that with water injection?
Or did they really smoke that much "dry"?

And thanks for the great pic, I'm tempted to use it as my desktop.... is there a bigger version somewhere?

CJ

[BUFFBob]

As I recall that was water injection on both the bombers (G model) and tankers (before turbo fans).

And yes they did blow a bit of black smoke, wish I could find a picture with all 30 airborne - - -

[alisoncc]

Back to THE AEROPLANE - The Vulcan. Sitting here idly reminiscing, on a Sunday morning, about the last time I got to play with the avionics on a Vulcan - close to 45 years ago at Finningley. And wondered how well my memory was holding up. Jotted down a list of all the avionics kit I could remember per following:

Green Satin
Red Steer
TACAN
ARC 52
STR 18B
RadAlt ??
Gee Mk II or III
ECM kit
NBS
I can visualise both the VHF's and the intercom controllers, but not their designation.

Can also remember where most of it was. Particularly climbing the entrance ladder, and before entering turning to face the back of the ship, then squirming around up behind the AEO's/Nav's panel to access the equipment racks which held the VHF's, UHF, HF, TACAN, etc. Not a good place to be if one suffered from claustrophobia. This was the early '60's kit, probably changed later. Have I missed anything?

[Pontius Navigator]

TACAN
ARC 52
STR 18B
RadAlt ??
Gee Mk II or III
ECM kit
NBS

That list dates you precisely.

The White Vulcan 2 had Gee3 in the early spring of 1964. Within weeks the transition was complete and the Gee was replaced with Tacan across the fleet. As one Nav said, it was not a real bomber without Gee. Mind you, they said that when they removed the API and probably the drift sight too.

One you missed was the GPI4

[India Four Two]

BUFFBob,

Great picture. I had never realized the origin of the name "Oil Burner Routes", but your picture makes it obvious :)

Simon

[Tankertrashnav]

Alison CC . I was never on Vulcans but the Victor had a pretty similar set up,and one thing you didnt mention was the Calc 3, a piece of kit the size of a large oildrum whose function was to work out the forward throw of the bomb, and thus calculate the release point. The interior of this object was wondrous to behold, consisting as it did of an amazing system of rods, wheels and widgits. To describing most of the nav gear in the Vs as avionics is stretching the definition of the word somewhat, looking at it nowadays on visits to museums it's like something out of the ark compared with modern kit.

[forget]

And wondered how well my memory was holding up. ....... Can also remember where most of it was ...... behind the AEO's/Nav's panel to access the equipment racks which held the VHF's, UHF, HF, TACAN, etc.

alisoncc, there's no other way of telling you - your memory's shot. :sad:

All above, bar the HF Comm, were in the nose wheel bay. Apparently red wine helps. :ok:

[alisoncc]

Not sure about the location of the kit though. Sure it was all in the nose wheel bay? Remember using a small pea bulb in an antenna connector to tune the VHF after a crystal change and it was dark, which might not have been the case in the nose wheel bay.

ARC 52 - UHF, was a clockmakers work of art. All those gear trains and tunable modules. But did forget the IFF-X or was it IFF 10. Nobody spotted that. Whilst there we went from all white ones to multi-coloured ones fresh out of Woodford.

[alisoncc]

Tankertrashnav wrote:
To describing most of the nav gear in the Vs as avionics is stretching the definition of the word somewhat, looking at it nowadays on visits to museums it's like something out of the ark compared with modern kit

Why so. IFF 10 later became your average Transponder, with Mode "C" now sending aircraft designation and altitude info. TACAN degenerated into the current DME. RCA's AVQ10 in the late sixties wasn't that much different from most military "C" band radars. AVQ10 evolved into their AVQ 30, both "C" and "X" band variants. As for comm's, current HF, VHF and UHF kit evolved from equivalents to STR18 and ARC52. Do the same job, just more advanced technology. The only fundamental changes are in satellite comms and GPS systems.

As for being museum pieces, so am I, but what does that prove. :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Alison, it was either the Mk 10 or X, take your pick but I can't remember where it was. The VHF boxes would have been in the bomb aimer's pron position. At that time the STR18 and the VHF boxes were pre-crystalized for the sortie with a different crystal requirement for the Med.

There were 3 VHF boxes in the series, with the low frequency and high frequency boxes used by the RAF and the mid-range by the RN. How are you on the freqs?

115.56 - Flying Training Common
117.9 - RAF Common
135.95 - Bomber Common 2

Off hand I can't remember other but that may come :)

[BEagle]

Many, many years after the 'old' military VHF frequencies (e.g. Merryfield Tower 102.42, Merryfield Homer 104.94, Valley Homer 100.98) had been re-allocated, the 2 Chipmunks which were delivered to Sunny Scampton for a spot of Air Cadet AEF flying in 1979 were still being crystallised with ancient frequencies such as 115.56 'Flying Training Common'!

I guess no-one had told the engineers?

The Hawk was fitted with a VHF which went up into the 140+ MHz range - on a boring transit back from Lossiemouth once, I spent a while clicking through the box until I found someone chatting.....:E

[Pontius Navigator]

Make you wonder, just how much could one do if you could purge your brain of what appears to be totally useless trivia. Remember the "RAF General Recall" that would be broadcast on RAF Common?

Not sure whether it was for a specific reason - WW3 had begun - or fog had descended on the whole of UK.

[alisoncc]

Memories of some events are good, events that may not have been at the time. Like as a lowly J/T fresh out of training being given a checklist and told to run up all the kit on an aircraft on the line. With no one tellling me it was no-no to test the ECM during Auntie Beebs evening news. There I was happily jamming all radio and TV broadcasts for a fifty mile radius in the early evening and the phones were starting to run hot. I am quite sure I was set up.

There was a story doing the rounds that a Vulcan on a nav exercise to Goose had diverted to Washington, switching on their ECM before hitting the coast, and then switching it off over Capitol Hill. Apparently it caused some diplomatic consternation.

Recently watching a DVD of "Battle for the Skies - V Force", the narrator stated that Vulcans on QRA were designed to just go, with all external power connections pulling out of their own accord. Almost killed myself laughing as memories came flooding back of swinging on the 115v 400Hz and 28vDC power cables in an attempt to dislodge them from the aircraft. When they were pushed in totally they did not come out easily. And if the aircraft had attempted to taxi away it would have taken the Houchin with it. That would have been an interesting sight with a Vulcan reaching V1 and attempting to rotate with a Houchin still attached. :eek:

They were good times.

[forget]

......... the narrator stated that Vulcans on QRA were designed to just go, with all external power connections pulling out of their own accord.

Sorry to jump in again, but the narrator was correct. That's why the aircraft's ground power sockets were angled rearwards and the GPU cables had some provision for a snatch wire. My memory is that this wasn't used on QRA as the crew chiefs didn't trust it - but it was (sometimes) used on ORP scrambles for demos to their Air Ships.

How's the red wine? :)

[Gainesy]

Isn't English wonderful?
There is something rib-tickling about people trying to recall what General Recall meant.:)

[ChristiaanJ]

Well, it IS slightly different from "Total Recall".

CJ

[alisoncc]

Quote:
......... the narrator stated that Vulcans on QRA were designed to just go, with all external power connections pulling out of their own accord.
Sorry to jump in again, but the narrator was correct. That's why the aircraft's ground power sockets were angled rearwards and the GPU cables had some provision for a snatch wire. My memory is that this wasn't used on QRA as the crew chiefs didn't trust it - but it was (sometimes) used on ORP scrambles for demos to their Air Ships.



No way they were angled backwards. On the Vulcan B2's they were directly behind the starboard undercarriage doors and pointed straight down. And if pushed well in, did not come out easily. With the Houchin located well behind, the angle of pull would have prevented any possibility of them just pulling out. And we aren't talking about some modern teflon coated plastic, these were of a very solid rubber construction which tends to grab and hold. I was being facetious about towing the Houchin, as the cables would have pulled out of there well before pulling out of the aircraft.

There used to be this funny oil which when used on pink rubber sleeves enabled them to slide down over a soldered contact. On one occasion we tried coating the aircraft end of the Houchin cables with it to see if it would improve the chances of the cables just pulling out, but I don't recollect it being successful as a long term solution.

It was around about then that I was nearly mown down by an Anson. Some guy with lots of scrambled egg, late for dinner at the officers mess, came racing around the perimeter track whilst I was marshalling a Vulcan onto it's pad. Early evening - dusk, and the batteries in the wands weren't the brightest. It was only a flying tackle by the Crew Chief that saved me from the mincer. Hey, I survived so it must have been fun.

[ZH875]

I always thought they were angled backwards, as climbing the A frame ladders with the 200v lead over the shoulder, it was an up and forward push to get the lead in, but they could be a pig to get out.

The 'funny oil' is the wonderful Hellerine oil, otherwise known as 'Hellersnot'.

[forget]

No way they were angled backwards. On the Vulcan B2's they were directly behind the starboard undercarriage doors and pointed straight down.

With the Vulcans I worked on, for seven years, Ground Power connectors were well aft and inboard of No 2 engine, and they most definitely angled rearwards - for the purpose previously discussed. No question about it.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/609_offutt.jpg

Pic from Andy Leitch's Vulcans in Camera. (Is Andy still around?)

[Rocket2]

"There used to be this funny oil which when used on pink rubber sleeves enabled them to slide down over a soldered contact"
That'll be Hellerin Lubricant then (still available from RS & other electrical suppliers) often reffered to as virgin juice - the three pronged tools for fitting the aforsed pink sleeves over the cables & pins were called virgin splitters - probably too much detail :eek:
R2

[forget]

alisoncc, not important I know, but I give you (very) well remembered facts and you keep coming up with your own (wrong) versions. See below, aircraft GPU connectors which, incidentally, are nowhere near the starboard main gear doors, are angled rearwards to allow ........... Never mind. :hmm:


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/gpu.jpg

[ChristiaanJ]

....probably too much detail :eek:
R2
R2, tin triangle bashers didn't have the monopoly.
Us civilian pointy triangle bashers used exactly the same.

So thanks, 't was not too much detail, but on the contrary a nice blast from the past...

CJ

[alisoncc]

but I give you (very) well remembered facts and you keep coming up with your own (wrong) versions. See below, aircraft GPU connectors which, incidentally, are nowhere near the starboard main gear doors, are angled rearwards to allow ........... Never mind. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif


You are entirely, completely and wholly correct. :)

My wooly brain was mixing up two unrelated events that seem to happen together quite regularly. One was hanging on the GPU connectors in an attempt to dislodge them, and the other was balancing on the main starboard bogies and hanging on to the undercarriage door whilst attempting to refasten one of the Dzus clips that held up the Green Satin aerial cover. On one of our aircraft these seemed to regularly spring out, much to the annoyance of the Crew Chief. The airframe fitters had replaced a few of them, but I think the cover may have been warped in some way. I think I still have one of those double thickness Dzus penny washer devices in my toolbox. Not that I use it much these days.

On an unrelated matter, remember going way up in the sky to replace some corroded connectors on the ILS antennas at the highest point of the Rudder/Tail Fin, but cannot remember what the ILS boxes looked like or where they were. We also had a Leader Cable install on one aircraft, but don't think it was useable.

[Pontius Navigator]

the other was balancing on the main starboard bogies and hanging on to the undercarriage door whilst attempting to refasten one of the Dzus clips that held up the Green Satin aerial cover. On one of our aircraft these seemed to regularly spring out, much to the annoyance of the Crew Chief. The airframe fitters had replaced a few of them, but I think the cover may have been warped in some way.

Still wrong. Green Satin was port side.

The cover had a very special warping property - they all did.

You could open and close then 'fairly' easily provided the aircraft was not being refuelled. If you opened them and then the aircraft was refuelled there was sufficient warping of the GS bay that it was a sod to re-fasten the door.

Do you remember why you had to do this?

The low pressure air inlets for the GS aerials were on the GS and only accessed when you opened the panel. Then some bright spark, probably aircrew :} as we had to recharge the airs when we did TRs, suggested extending the charging pipework into the undercarriage bay.

[forget]

Still wrong. Green Satin was port side.

Correct. ... and to replace some corroded connectors on the ILS antennas at the highest point of the Rudder/Tail Fin,

alisoncc, I don't know how to break this gently :) - the ILS antennas (G/S, LOC) were in the wing tips. There was an antenna in the fin cap, but not ILS.

[flipflopman RB199]

Alisoncc,

Are you by any chance thinking of the Air Start connection from the Palouste, which did indeed live behind the Stb'd undercarriage bay, and did indeed connect vertically upwards as opposed to being angled??

This is all I can think of which lives on that side of the aircraft and indeed connected to the airframe in a vertical plane. As I understand it (but forget would be able to confirm or deny this) the Palouste would not have been used anyway in an alert situation, so the vertical connection was not relevant.

Hope that may have jogged the old memory!! :ok:


Flipflopman

[Pontius Navigator]

FlipFlop, I think you're right about the Palouste although it could certainly be used as a backup.

The HP air would probably have been the first choice, epecially a mass-rapid, if speed overrode safety.

[forget]

flipflop, good to hear from you. I think you've put alisoncc right on his fading memories - too much Oz plonk perchance. I do remember Paloustes on the odd pan but I don't think they were regularly used, and certainly not for QRA/ORP starts. There was some mention of Mass Rapid Start earlier. I thought this was disabled early on. No?

PS. alison, you specifically mentioned B2 Ground Power. I think you may have been thinking of 1(A)s - which were much different. Take a look at this. ( Only trying to help - Oz plonk can't be that damaging. :) )

British Pathe - SCRAMBLE IN 2 MINUTES (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=41593)

[Yellow Sun]

There was some mention of Mass Rapid Start earlier. I thought this was disabled early on. No?


Not disabled but not used in 1972. The problem with the "Sim Start" button was the high start failure rate, you were too frequently left with 3 running. The work around to achieve a "mass rapid" was with "Rapid" selected on the start panel to press the individual start buttons in the order 2,3,1,4.

What you lost was the simultaneous start of the PFCUs that occurred when the "Sim" button was pressed, but as this required an external supply, not the AAPP it could lead to problems if the ground power failed at the critical moment (always seemed to in the sim!). The procedure that you adopted when using the 2,3,1,4 start was to press the R start button on the PFCU panel when first alternator came on line and all the PFCUs would then start in sequence.

Having said all of the above, the "mass rapid" procedure was normally only used on displays or demos. The normal exercise procedure on the ORP was to start one engine with rapid air and then do a simultaneous cross-feed start for the remaining 3.

They must have taught me well in the groundschool if I can remember all that after 40 or so years!

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

As mentioned much earlier, mass rapids and sim starts were used in the 60s and usually from a cold, no external or internal power, display starts.

I remember a Mk 1 scramble at BB Open day. One aircraft rolled on 2 engines, got the 3rd up on the runway and the 4th once airborne.

On the Mk 2 the problem was the engines would all start but there were no engine instruments until the AEO connected the power to the BUS. After a couple of engine fires, IIRC, the practice was stopped.

[Tankertrashnav]

British Pathe - SCRAMBLE IN 2 MINUTES (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=41593)

Crew scrambling on board resplendent in SD hats, I see. Well, can't look scruffy in front of the Russkies when you're walking back from Siberia I assume :ok:

[Yellow Sun]

On the Mk 2 the problem was the engines would all start but there were no engine instruments until the AEO connected the power to the BUS. After a couple of engine fires, IIRC, the practice was stopped.

This was only a problem if there was no secondary AC supply at all. Normally the AAPP would be started by the AEO as soon as he boarded and AC became available via the Sync Bus. This was fine for the "mass rapid" but not if "Sim Start" was to be used. I also recall that when the Battery Master Switch was selected on this automatically provided a cartridge start for the AAPP if a start was selected within 20 seconds(?)*. If he forgot about the time delay and went straight for an AAPP start the result was quite exciting!

*IIRC this was related to the availability of cartridge start when the non-essentials had had been shed.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

Yellow Sun, the AAPP would not be available because on the VIP Display scarambles the aim was to show the 2-min capability and it was always done from a power-off stance, ie the airfield would be completely silent only the 28v power would be online IIRC, and only the intercom live.

A mass-rapid power off start was quite something as the 1st aircraft would be rolling within 25-35 seconds.

As for SD Hats, indeed we did. We might have been in flying suits but we stil had to salute. Even on routine training flights we always wore hats to the aircraft. The two windows in the rear were ideal for the radar and AEO hats until they put some kit in the AEOs window.

We also used to take a service-issued suit travel bag on every flight. After changing in flying clothing we would all pack trousers and jacket into the bag - all 5 sets in one bag. We didn't need shirts however as we wore the blue wooly aircrew shirt and, until the risk of being throttled, we wore ties too.

As the long johns, with rubber button, were grandad cast-offs many would wear uniform trousers under their flying suits.

[ACW418]

In the early mid 60's Sim Start was introduced. We lost the ability to cross feed start from the AAPP when it came in which was shame as we were self sufficient until then on the ground although we did use the Palouste routinely. It was used on QRA when the readiness state went to 02, I think, and it never failed in my experience. (The flashy B of B displays were a secondary issue) The biggest problem was getting the throttles retarded - they all had to be fully forward and could not be retarded until each engine reached a given percentage (60%??). As we were often facing another aircraft on the QRA pan getting them retarded was quite a necessity!
I did not know about the interlock for a cartridge start immediately after turning on the batteries - obviously our AEO had forgotten about it as he started the AAPP on a compass swing just as the Captain was stood under the AAPP exhaust. It cartridge started and his SD hat was turned green. He was not amused but I seem to recall the rest of us thought it very funny.
ACW

[Pontius Navigator]

[QUOTE=ACW418;5464615] The biggest problem was getting the throttles retarded - they all had to be fully forward and could not be retarded until each engine reached a given percentage (60%??). As we were often facing another aircraft on the QRA pan getting them retarded was quite a necessity!/QUOTE]

Why? The obvious answer, jet blast, is not correct as the jets were facing each other.

[ACW418]

PN

Two reasons. One we were usually about to taxi to the threshold and doing that with 70 or 80% set would probably have meant hitting the other aircraft. Two I do not recall the brakes were that good with 103.5% running on the engines. The pans were often wet and oily so we would have launched into the opposing aircraft but more likely fail to make the turn.
I do recall on one demonstration on the ORP one of the four aircraft did not make the turn and went onto the grass on the other side of the runway.
ACW

[Pontius Navigator]

ACW, I thought that might be the reasons.

As for the run on to the grass, IIRC, it was a nose wheel steering failure and it didn't turn in time.

[ACW418]

PN
I never believed that as he had wheel brakes. More likely he was trying to keep as much power on as he could to save having to wait for the engines to spool up again! He overcooked it and had a convenient nosewheel steering malfunction.
ACW

[Tankertrashnav]

V-Force reunion April 24th-25th 2010

Latest info about the reunion has just gone on the website V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) . Most importantly the reception is selling out fast, so act quickly if you want to come to that. Also I have just heard from NAM that they are offering a discount on the admission charge to those attending the reunion (print off the homepage of our website and produce it to get your discount). Rates will be shown on the next update. Bookings for the reunion itself are coming in steadily, so it looks like it should be a good weekend

[Tankertrashnav]

V Force reunion

Just a final call that the last V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) website update has just been done, with a final reminder for buffet bookings (over 80% sold now). The reunion itself at NAM has had lots of interest, so should be very well attended. There is no limit on numbers for those who want to just come along in the daytime on either day (or both), so even if it's a last minute decision you will be very welcome. Looking forward to putting faces to a lot of PPruners at the reunion - see you there!

[dave12]

Think you missed:- Radio Compass, IFF, Intercom, Blue Saga (passive ECM) Rad Alts were Radar Altimeter 6 and Radio Altimeter 7. There was probably more but I only did one year 1973/74 a long time ago and host of different aircraft worked on since.

[dave12]

In 1973 I was tasked with what they called a "Radio Check" at RAF Luqa. This was a test of a certain piece of ECM. Upon calling up Luqa Tower I was told "Wait one" - and heard a Trident on finals. When the said Trident was within sight of touchdown I was given permission to transmit - from the Trident I heard a plaintive call "Malta - we've lost you!" - the most effective ECM check I ever did - I had blotted out the Trident's radar!

[dave12]

I worked on the Ferranti ISIS Gunsight as fitted to the Hawk - amazing what you can do with lights and mirrors!

[ACW599]

>the three pronged tools for fitting the aforsed pink sleeves over the cables & pins were called virgin splitters - probably too much detail<

Universally referred to in BBC engineering circles as 'virgin urgers', I regret to say.

[joemcg]

Universally referred to in BBC engineering circles as 'virgin urgers', I regret to say.

Ah, the Hellerman tool, known by us pongo's as See You Next Tuesday stretchers or something very similar to that!

Joe

[RETDPI]

Hellerman a.k.a "Honeymoon" Pliers:ok:

[forget]

This thread has gone seriously downhill. Running ECM as a 'radio check', Tridents that needed 'radar' to land - three posts with pre-historic 'jokes' on Hellerman pliers. Maybe it should be locked.

[Tankertrashnav]

V Force reunion

My final post on this subject. The website V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) has just been updated for the last time. This final update gives details of the reception and signing in arrangements when you arrive at the site. At the risk of boring everyone to death, dont forget to bring a £1 coin with you for your badge - asking for change of a £20 note will not endear you to the guys on the tables! Looks like there will be a good turnout, so see you all there

[exem657]

Just caught up with this thread....Flew into GB many times as a CC ending up doing the 12 month punishment tour also.
On my first trip, flying with a captain who was so unpopular that no other CC would fly with him-(something about charging a CC over mislaid seat pins or something) ,but I didn't know that then.

I remember bringing over barrels of Watneys provided gratis by the brewery which nobody liked in the Sgts mess -couldn' even give it away to the locals. To generate some interest the committee decided to hold a games night which involved drinking large ammounts of Red Barrel (cunning plan), but unfortunately they'd run out of gas. Some bright spark decided that an inert substitute such as nitrogen would do the trick. Just as a precaution a doctor from the US base was asked for advice,who said he'd think about it
The games went ahead anyway and the Red Barrel flowed like wine.Some time later the doc phoned back to say-" the use of nitrogen was inadvisable as it could cause the Bends".
All survived nd the hangover was put down to nitrogen.


On my first return trip as a novice CC return trip we did an impressive flyby and pull up- I was standing on the ladder casually scanning the engine instruments as one does, when I noticed low oil pressure on No.3 engine. Being a new boy, I assumed this must be some sort of excercise or something . When nothing was said and the OP continued to fall, I mentioned that the oil pressure was low on No. 3.
All Hell broke loose as the engine was chopped and the AEO mentioned that the shaft bearing temp monitor was "Off the clock" .
We did one quick circuit and one very overweight landing carried out.
All this went over my head as I considered these superior beings knew exactly what was going on!
After the engine change and return to Waddo nothing was ever said to me -but I guess that was par for this crew.

Most of the crews I flew with were "diamond geezers" who appreciated the "stokers".
-seeing the names again brings back many happy memories -Harvey Moore and Frank Bonfield ,Gus Gillies et al..

[Pontius Navigator]

Most of the crews I flew with were "diamond geezers" who appreciated the "stokers".
-seeing the names again brings back many happy memories -Harvey Moore and Frank Bonfield ,Gus Gillies et al..

Now that is getting too close to home.

I guested with Harvey and Gus (RIP) when their nav rad, Mick Holder had to drop out. I was offered the Western Ranger on the Friday and took but a moment to say YES. Now this was March 1968 and if you were the CC I must apologise and say I have little recollection of the trip - which is hardly surprising and of course subject to the Unofficial Secrets Act.

Frank Bonfield, OTOH, and crew always turned up on Mickey Finn's complete with DJs. We had a deal and he knew I would allocate him to the Manston dispersal. They used to go to the Country Club each night. Frank's nav rad, Al Laidler was at Strike as recently as 8 years ago.

As you say, there were some cracking crews there and some startling ones too :}

Names in PM? :)

[exem657]

Wish I'd kept a log book/diary -I remember Al Laidler (a good geordie lad)-turned out he played rugby with my cousin up north, who I hadn't seen since I was apprehended trying to steal a cannon from HMS Daedalus 10 years before (small world), and I remember going on the survival trek? at Goose where the object(as far as I could see) was to follow a trail of beer cans to an unknown objective and return a different way.
Remember being impressed by Mick Holder's throwing arm ,who very nearly downed a crow from 50 yards when he let on he had a trial for Surrey cricket team..
I was CC from '65 to '70 and XM 657 was my bird-at least I was the inventory holder . When I signed off I was asked to explain why I had 5 engines instead of the usual 4...I didn't know as I rarely ,if ever flew with her , so I just feigned confusion (CC's first line of defence)and shipped out to Goose as C team leader.
I did a round the world jolly with Frank Bonfield and I remember flying in to Hawaii at altitude to avoid surrounding cu- nimbs and then doing a max rate descent over the island. I remember seeing the island in profile straight ahead - thought this must be a standard procedure until I read Tony Blackman's "Vulcan test pilot."
Happy days!

[Tankertrashnav]

Did you take any good photos at the V-Force reunion?
If you have any good photos which you took at the reunion, we would be pleased to post them on the gallery on the website, V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/). We'd particularly like named group photos, individual tables etc. We dont really need any of the aircraft exhibits, they're covered on the museum's own website, but other than that please send them to John, the site administrator. His email address is on the website. Thanks.

TTN

[Akrotiri71]

I can remember my Dad, Crew Chief Tony Regan, letting us have the day off school to watch Vulcans drop LIVE 1,000 pounders off the beach at Episkopi. I seem to recollect that there was also a good showing of Phantoms & Lightnings, (53 Sqdn?). Great website. I do seem to remember some of the "sorties" told here, being told to me by my Dad. (Especially Goose, Butterworth, Wittering). As soon as we stepped off the Brit, from BN, we went to Buck Taylor's house, before we went to live in Ammonia, Limassol. We then lived on Hawker Drive on the camp. I can remember the visiting "Hereford Hockey Team" making a big impression on my Mum, :rolleyes:. Oh those halcyon days!! Keep up the good work!! :ok:
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/vulcan_people/tonyregan.htm

[Pontius Navigator]

Akrotiri, you are quite right. Everyone in quarters at Epi was told to open all their windows :)

The Buccs and Phantoms did their thing dive bombing and straffe all on east to west tracks on to the target. Then Bas Gowling came down the low level route under Paramali West, the Bloodhound SAM site, and at 300 feet dropped a stick of 21 retard 1000lb bombs.

Where the Buccs and Phantoms had slavoed all their bombs from dives, the Vulcan stick was a continuous barrage of noise.

[Akrotiri71]

Yes!!, it was Buccs, (not Lights), & Phants coming in behind our heads over the cliffs and strafing the rafts out to sea. Very spectacular for an 11 yr old!!, & having a bloody big grin on my face. Much to the amusement of my Dad.:) Would I be correct in saying that you had to go through a tunnel to get to the beach at Happy Valley?

ps My Dad also told me a story of a Lightning letting off a full magazine, unintentionally, across Ladies Mile or close to whilst on the pan. Or was it a Canberra? ('71 or '72)

[Pontius Navigator]

Certainly not a Canberra as the Canberras on 56 were purely there as targets. I don't recall the guns incident.

Back on the airpower demo, during the practice before hand the Buccs and Phantoms were supposed to use inert heads on the target. The F4s flew as a 3-ship in formation and used HE SNEB and blew the target - up and out of the water were wrong - which promptly sank.

A new target had to be readied in short order. On the great day one F4 failed to release its bombs. Now there was an obvious reason however the crew repaired to the jettison area 30 miles south of Akrotiri and press the jettison button. Having dropped 3 MACE each with 3x1000lb HE, 3 dummy Sparrow, and a strike camera, they returned to Akrotiri with their story intact and the evidence in 8000 feet of water :}

[Waddo Liney]

Just discovered this great thread in recent weeks and have been compulsively reading through it. 84 pages...phew!!!
Just jumping in to add my 2 cents worth on the angled/not angled ground power cables. I worked on both B1A's at Waddington and B2's at Finningley, (in reverse order, if you please). If memory serves me right, the angled connectors were on the B1A's and were for the sim-start cables coming from the massive batteries on the sim-start trolley. Although, in theory, they were supposed to pull out by themselves, we always pulled them out manually. My experience of this was on QRA and on Open Day scrambles. On the B2, of course, there were no sim-start cables. The 28vdc power cable connector was located on the side of the crew cabin, somewhere the vicinity of the pitot head, and required a folding servicing ladder to access it for connection and disconnection. It was definitely straight in, at right angles to the a/c centre line, and not angled. Likewise, the 200 vac cable was at the rear of the aircraft, in the vicinity of the power compartment. The connector for this cable (to the best of my recollection) was not angled aft either. On start-up, the 28vdc was removed, once the AEO fired up the static converter(s). The 200 vac was the last to be removed, after the engines had started and the alternators synchronized on line. Admittedly, my B2 experience was on normal starter crew, and never had the dubious pleasure of participating in a B2 scramble. Came close to it though...my first experience of an alert was the "real thing". The Cuban Missile Crisis occurred about 7 weeks after I joined 230 OCU at Finningley, and I spent three or four days on the ORP awaiting Armageddon, but totally peed off because it interfered with my weekend adventures in Doncaster.

[forget]

Waddo Liney, welcome but the California sun has got to you.

On the B2 ... the 28vdc power cable connector was located on the side of the crew cabin.

http://www.pprune.org/5454535-post1624.html

.. the 200 vac cable was at the rear of the aircraft. The connector for this cable (to the best of my recollection) was not angled aft either.

http://www.pprune.org/5455287-post1626.html

And if there's still any doubt -pictures 15 and 16 here. Note the forward hinged door on 15 - hard to see.

Vulcan XM655 plays host to the flight crew from XH558 (http://vulcanxm655.fotopic.net/c1849632.html)

[Waddo Liney]

forget - thank you for the kind welcome. I don't think the Southern Cal sun has addled my brain just yet:cool:, although, as they say, a picture, is worth a thousand words. It would appear that you have made your point, however, I can't just roll over and play dead.
My flight line experience on the B2 was limited to late 1962 - early 1963 at Finningley, which was early in the B2's service. From that time, I have a very distinct memory of a visit to the OCU by some local ATC cadets. As they stood around in group adjacent to the nosewheel area, watching us work, I very clearly recall asking one of them to support the 28vdc cable while I climbed the ladder to plug it in at the location described in my earlier post. The young lad eagerly complied, much to the envy of his fellow cadets. The 28v connection at that location was very inconvenient, and it was really a two-man job to connect or disconnect...one man supporting the cable while the other manipulated into or out of the receptacle, and a ladder was definitely involved. I would even go as far as saying that it was on the starboard side. So I'm wondering if perhaps the Powers-That-Be sanctioned a mod to move it to the location in the photos - which frankly makes a lot more sense.
Also, the plugs shown in photos 15 and 16 do not seem to resemble the plugs that I recall. In my time, the 28v cable terminated in a NATO socket - 2 large pins and 1 small one, and was flattish in shape. The 200v socket(also NATO standard) had a cubic appearance to accommodate the larger number of pins (4 large and 1 small, I believe).
BTW, how does one "quote" another posting on this thread?

[forget]

I think you are mixing up your B1As and B2's.:8 The first was mainly DC generators with Inverters for AC, the latter AC alternators with TRUs for DC. 'Blacksheep' knows all about this and will correct - if wrong. To quote - copy and paste the words you want into the Reply Box, highlight, and then click the third icon from the right in the Reply Box.

[sooty655]

I think the 28v receptacle referred to (stbd side adjacent to nose wheel bay) is a dedicated connection used for refuelling, and ensures no other electrical systems are energised at the same time.

[forget]

Interesting. Do you have this 28VDC connector on XM655? I was ECM/Comms with 655, and others, for seven years in the '60s and I don't remember this connector. If it's there it must be a mod. (Personally, I don't think it is - there, that is.)

[Waddo Liney]

I think you are mixing up your B1As and B2's.

Not really, forget! The only Vulcans I worked on at 230 OCU were the B2's, and while other memories fade or get fudged, this one is very clear.

Sooty655 - Neither do I think it was a dedicated connection that related to refuelling (there never was such a thing in my experience).

I'm going to do some fact checking off line...there's a source I can contact who was on the OCU at the same time and later became an instructor teaching the B2 electrical system at Finningley. One problem is that my memory of this is "frozen in time", so if the connection point was later moved, the original location may not be remembered by those who continued working on the B2.
As for confusing B1A's and B2; I was a "lecky" and therefore intimately involved with the two different electrical systems, viz a viz 110vdc and 200vac. However, I did forget the correct terminology for the 200vac/28vdc conversion units. I had referred to them as "static converters" in my earlier post, but you correctly called them TRU's (transformer rectifier units). I think, but am not sure, that these two components were located in the nosewheel bay, which would go some way towards explaining why the 28vdc NATO socket would have been plugged in where I described. I do know that the Frequency Changers were in the n/wheel bay, but that has nothing to do with this discussion.
The connections to the B1A were much easier to handle, not least because of the nose up attitude of the B1A tipped the back end downwards, making it an easier reach to access the receptacles.
P.S. thanks for the help on how to include a quote.

[Yellow Sun]

This is sad, but I have just dug out my Mk2 OCU notes! The following paragraphs also appear in the Aircrew Manual:

External Power supplies

200 Volt AC Ground Power Units.........the 6 pin snatch disconnect plug is in the port wing root......

28 Volt DC Ground Supply A 28 volt, quick disconnect ground supply plug is in the port wing root angled rearwards. This supply feeds all ground service lighting, all normal 28 volt services and, if the battery switch is ON, charges the battery......
For ground refuelling only, a separate 28 volt supply may be plugged in on the starboard side of the nose. This isolates the gound refuelling circuits from the normal 28 volt system, which remains de-energised during refuelling.

That would seem to settle it, the sun and waccy baccy hasn't done for Waddo Liney's after all!;)

YS:)

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC there were two other services that could be plugged in at the front end but generally were not.

One was the AVS feed but never remembered that being used - we suffered until the cabin conditioning kicked in. The other was a plug in for the cabin conditioning - hot or cold. In practise the cooling pipe was just put in to the cabin.

[forget]

Nice one YS, :ok: but we're getting a little confused here. It was sooty655 who suggested the dedicated refuelling 28VDC; the jury is still working on Waddo Liney's theories :E

So far as the dedicated refuelling 28VDC goes, thanks to YS we now know what the course notes say - but what about reality. With three years in the hangar and three on the line I don't ever remember seeing this connector. With a bit of luck sooty 655 will provide a photograph - or not.

Anyway, we've at last sorted the matter of the 'quick disconnect ground supply plug(S) is (ARE) in the port wing root angled rearwards'. Suits me. :hmm:

[Waddo Liney]

...the sun and waccy baccy hasn't done for Waddo Liney's after all
Can't speak for the sun, but can say with all honesty that I have never partaken of the waccy baccy. Now, a nice glass of Napa Valley Merlot...that's a whole different story!

Briefly back to the current topic of discussion; my subject matter expert has not responded yet, so I cannot say any more for now, but the refuelling suggestion seems to have legs. In the meantime, please allow me to regale my readers with a story of yore.

It's night shift, circa 1963-64, the location - Echo dispersal, Waddington. Oh dear, a crew-in snag! The crew are aboard and the engines are running, but there's a problem with the generator load-sharing. A corporal electrician is despatched to deal with the situation, and is accompanied by a young, wet-behind-the-ears SAC electrician, not long out of trade-training, whose main job on this occasion is to carry the tools and test intruments. Both climb a ladder into the power compartment of the B1A.
After some tweaking of black boxes and mumblings of magic chants, the corporal emerges and confers with the crew chief, who then checks with the AEO. The snag is declared fixed, so the corporal returns briefly to the power compartment and instructs his lad to replace covers, gather up the tools and test equipment and close up the power compartment, while said corporal heads for the igloo to clear the 700.
Meanwhile, the crew chief, anxious to get the aircraft on its way, and apparently unaware of the SAC still inside the power compartment, stands on the lower rung of the servicing ladder and slams the power compartment closed, then latches it and removes the ladder. The lad trapped inside frantically hammers on the hatch door, but no one can hear him above the noise of the engines. A few minutes pass, and then the engines mercifully shut down because the AEO is still unhappy with the load sharing. Only then is a frantic hammering noise heard coming from the power compartment. The hatch is hastily opened and a pale, decided unsettled SAC emerges on wobbly legs. This is witnessed by all of the starter crew.
A few minutes later, the crew deplane, and as the captain emerges, one particular starter crew member, well known for a tendency to shoot off his mouth, remarks laughingly to the captain, "Sir, you nearly had an extra passenger with you tonight!"
The captain, with a polite smile replies, "What do you mean?"
Our trusty ground crew member then proceeds to fill him in on the young electrician's plight, but, to his dismay, the captain fails to see the joke. In fact, the captain's countenance becomes decidely grim. And, just to cut a long story short, the crew chief very soon appears on the carpet and receives a "severe dig" for his carelessness.
Later, those of us who worked with the young SAC asked him what he would have done had the Vulcan taxied out to the runway and took off. His answer was that he would have started ripping out fuses and wires to create a problem that would cause the sortie to be abborted. But I wonder to this day, and shudder at what might have happened had the sortie continued and no one realized soon enough where the SAC had disappeared to.

[sooty655]

Unfortunately, I don't have access to 655 at the moment, as I spend the summer months canal cruising. However, I have asked a fellow enthusiast to see if he can get you a photo.

If not, I will get it when I visit for our Wings and Wheels spectacular on 20th June.

[alisoncc]

Also, the plugs shown in photos 15 and 16 do not seem to resemble the plugs that I recall. In my time, the 28v cable terminated in a NATO socket - 2 large pins and 1 small one, and was flattish in shape. The 200v socket(also NATO standard) had a cubic appearance to accommodate the larger number of pins (4 large and 1 small, I believe).


They are exactly the same as the ones I remember, also from 1963/65 Finningley, and they were definitely B2's. Being with B Sqdn 230 OCU never got to play with the "obsolete" A Sqdn B1's. :p

We used to dispatch aircraft to Woodford on a regular basis, and they always returned very different. I would suspect there was continuous programme of upgrades and modifications taking place, so it may be difficult for anyone to be quite definitive about what was fitted where and when.

As for the story about an SAC magician being locked in the power compartment prior to takeoff. I have heard similar stories about air radio fitters climbing into the bomb bay to "sort out" the STR18 aerial coupler and almost getting an unintended flight. Came close on a couple of occasions myself.

[Waddo Liney]

They are exactly the same as the ones I remember, also from 1963/65 Finningley, and they were definitely B2's.

allisoncc - your comment persuaded me to take a second look, and on closer inspection of photo 15, I can see that the left hand cable does indeed terminate in a flat, NATO type socket. The rim of the receptacle is also visible to confirm it. Also, the right hand (red) cable appears to terminate in a squarish-looking socket. So it turns out they really are both the same as I remember them.
Sounds like you were posted to 230 around the same time I left there for Waddo (March 63).

[Ramshornvortex]

So far as the dedicated refuelling 28VDC goes, thanks to YS we now know what the course notes say - but what about reality. With three years in the hangar and three on the line I don't ever remember seeing this connector. With a bit of luck sooty 655 will provide a photograph - or not.

Here is the 28v refuelling ground supply socket on XM655 as advised by my colleague Sooty:


http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/cibrimson/DSC_2622.jpg

RHV :)

[forget]

Thanks. Can't argue with that. A Blue Steel peculiarity I thought - but 655 was never Blue Steel. Perhaps a Tanker Mod? But then I find a photograph of a non Blue Steel aircraft in proper colours, below with white belly, long before tankers were thought of. There's the 28VDC plug. Anyway, at Coningsby/Cottesmore it must have still been on the secret list as no-one knew about it. :p

PS. I just wonder if it was even connected as there are no placards, below. Fresh paint job and no placards? Very odd.

http://www.pprune.org/4046823-post4.html

[alisoncc]

There were no covers on ours. We just hung on the cable until it came out and the airy just went. No time on QRA/ORP to pratt around fastening dzus clips.

[Waddo Liney]

I just wonder if it was even connected

Yup! It was definitely connected. The fasteners were the small dzus type, which could be fastened by hand, i.e twisting the wing-nut type wings.

[Pontius Navigator]

That the tacan aerial?

The QRA power recepticals, IIRC, were fastened with spring-loaded latches. I think the theory was the snap-shut action when the cable was snatched would cause the latch to snap and lock the door.

I think more often than not there was too much paint and gunge on the sprung hinges and on the latch and it didn't latch automatically. For a scramble we would go with the hatch sprung shut but not latched.

[tantalite]

As an ex Gen Fitt permanent staffer on various dispersals, did a quick 6 weeks relief at Leuchars before a year at Goose. This was November/December 1970 and I had just turned 21. Did the first Mick that became a Tacheval, launched the 2 x B2s at the end of the excersise and got a clean break from the power cables using the NATO frame to support them, unfortunately the earthing cable went with one of the aircraft along with a fair amount of alternate panel fastenings (bodge tape!!).
For the purists, we had kidnapped 43s Fighting Cock and rechristened them the fighting cooks. Attendees will remember 43 stopping our whistling tit on the runway and politely requested the birds return, duly done I hitched a lift to Waddo on the Argosy, Happy Days

[exem657]

I was unfortunate enough to "take" Tony on his first ranger from Waddo.
We managed to "lose" the crew Landrover on a liaison trip to Valetta. As senior crewchief I got the blame via the skipper who got it from the station co.
Lost Brownie points over that...but a memorable trip nevertheless!:\
Ask your dad!

[Turbo542]

I had hoped he had forgotten about that.

[Turbo542]

Lost in the midst of time

[Turbo542]

I went with No 101 Squadron on their Sunflower, my partner was Don Lennox, the Captain was Fiery Jack---BUT
We flew in XM657 which belonged a gent from Hampshire, I ask the question "Why did he not go in his own bomber"-- did he know something. I know we spent a night on Wake Island.
He went to KT Hong Kong, I got the short straw went to Darwin.

[Turbo542]

AK 71 is mixing it up with a Canberra B(I)8 of 88 Squadron, we were there from Germany to assist in the Kuwait 1961 excursion.
Some plumber mixed the breech locking tools after a stoppage. The pilot counted the rounds (tracer) INTO THE BAY.:=................

[Akrotiri71]

AK 71 is mixing it up with a Canberra B(I)8 of 88 Squadron, we were there from Germany to assist in the Kuwait 1961 excursion.
Some plumber mixed the breech locking tools after a stoppage. The pilot counted the rounds (tracer) INTO THE BAY.................
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Operation Vantage.....:ok:

[Turbo542]

The Vulcan accredited to others was taken by me at Offutt it is XM609
The Captain was Phil Leckonby of 101 Squadron. We were going home to Waddo, the other Chief was the late Alan Ashton who was bringing another Vulcan later.
The badge on the tail is the US NAVAL unit at Saufley Field, Pensacola, where we had been previously.

[forget]

The Vulcan accredited to others was taken by me at Offutt it is XM609

Lost me. Which one is that?

[Turbo542]

Posted by "forget" on page 82

[SA Prowler]

I had a similar experience as that SAC, In the late 50s I was a Cpl Tech BDS night QRA on 101 B1s, had to get an urgent NBS Calc 5 box changed (after the plane had left the pan), in Nose wheel eqpt bay. Normal teqhnique was to climb up from servicing steps and stand in bay straddling the U/c door coamings. I had just completed reconnecting box when the green light came for the off, and the beast started to roll out to the runway, saw servicing ladder disapear. A microseconds indecision as the Beast gathered speed, Pan looked a long way down (it was higher on the B1s), dropped, and rolled as the exhaust washed over me. Other than shaken, warmed and twisted ankle, unhurt. Back in the crew room asked Chief what would have happened if I hadn't jumped? His reply was that I would have probably fallen out upon take-off and I certainly wasn't important enough to abort the take-off, as he didn't know if it was exercise or for real.

[golfsmj123]

Hi Trevor

I am Bert Caskie (DFC)'s son and would be interested to know about his connection to you. I don't know about him ever having been a 'best man' and would be very interested to know more.

Obviously if there's anything in particular you'd like to know about Dad then ask away!

All the best

Ian

[anjuna]

Sometime during my tour at Akrotiri (1972 or 1973)there was an AOC-inC's inspection culminating in a mass scramble of Vulcans, some 12-14? if memory is to be trusted.

The last one was hauled sharply into the air and there was much intaking of breath by many around me when the A/C was banked hard to starboard with very little ground clearance evident. Anybody see/hear about the event? or was there?
That definitely started my love affair with the aircraft, realised last year with the return of 558. What a showman's aircraft.....always end up with tears down my face....

[anjuna]

Or again as virgin trainers.......I still have a pair....but as it is three pronged pair seems to be a misnomer....

[Mike7777777]

If ever there was any doubt regarding the Vulcan's ability to depart with some haste in comparison with the opposition, I offer:

YouTube - B52 Vs R.A.F. Vulcan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYOgsgnZ8dw&feature=related)

[anjuna]

The B52 certainly lumbered into the air with its peculiar nose-down attitude, but I suppose that the Vulcan with a full bomb load would not have the AOA on takeoff that it manages in display mode with enough fuel for the display and a diversion...

[Pontius Navigator]

anjuna, not so.

At display weights and the peacetime power setting with 201 engines the power-weight ratio was about 1:2.

A 301 engined Mk 2 with full conventional bombload and unrestricted power, such as we enjoyed in the 60s, had a power-weight ratio of about 1:2.38.

Even in high temperatures and max bomb load the ROC as 5000 ft per minute and time to 45000 feet about 9 minutes.

[Mike7777777]

Eye witness account, so it must be true I was on the flight line that day & there were some Americans in the crowd, who were whooping & cheering & stating loudly how the B-52 was the greatest! When the Vulcan took off, there was silence. As I looked around, their mouths were wide open & they didn't say a lot after that. I just thought to myself YES!

[SA Prowler]

On 101 Sqdn, and in the Electronics bay we used to refer to them as AESPFOOs
translated as Ancient Egyptian Silver Plated Fundamental Orifice Openers.

It seems that wherever they were used the descriptions were always scatological.

[Orange Poodle]

Just working my way through this thread, driven by memories of watching Vulcans at Finninley in the mid to late sixties.

Got to page 40 and I haven't seen any reference to V-bombers being intercepted by scrambled Soviet fighters.

Lightning and Phantom pilots don't seem shy about scrambling to intercept Bears testing our reactions and response, so I assume this must have happened in reverse. Didn't it?

OP

[Pontius Navigator]

Got to page 40 and I haven't seen any reference to V-bombers being intercepted by scrambled Soviet fighters.

Maybe they weren't.

Search for 51 Sqn and Comet and you will find some surprising detail of their operations in the Baltic, Black and Caspian Seas.

[Des Hawgood]

Interesting reading. I ran the Waddington Ejection Seat bay at the time of the XM610 crash at Wingate, so it was good to see our equipment actually worked.

[midsomerjambo]

Been away for a long time but interesting to see some of the eng. posts (OK I understand the thread is "Did You Fly" but I sort of think most of the operators (tee hee!) have an interest (more or less) in the eng. aspects of this great aircraft's service life. From my engineering perspective, the 2 great design features in the V-force (Vulcan in particular) NBS were:

The Calc 3 (balistics "computer") square rooting pin wheel
The automatic variation setting cam unit (Calc 5? - can't remember if that was the box)

In other words - how did they come up with these things? I thought the AVSCU was a joke till I saw the pukka item in a servicing bay (looked like the burnt out candle the night you fell asleep in the bath ) and I thought - hats off to the boffins that designed this.

Discuss :-)

MSJ

[BEagle]

The AVSCU was quite an artful piece of work - a truly analogue item.

For those who may wonder, it was the Automatic Variation Setting Control Unit, which converted a True Heading to Magnetic Heading.

The aircraft's longitude position rotated a plastic (Bakelite?) representation of the world's magnetic variation and the latitude moved a sliding contact arm up and down the surface. A plunger contact moved in and out and the deflexion provided the magentic variation value corresponding to the lat/long.

At least, I think that's how the 'dog turd on a stick' worked!

Nowadays I have the entire global magnetic variationin a 2.73 Kb database file....

[alisoncc]

Far prefered the NBS Vulcans with the large black radome for a nose than the silly ones with the rounded boob look, with a pimple and poker stuck out. It looks so effete. The black radomed ones looked like they were meant for business, not for swanning around the sky playing lets pretend.

[BEagle]

The black radome looked so old-fashioned - as did shiny paint.

The TFR pod and probe showed that the aircraft meant business. TFR-ing was quite hard work at 300ft! We didn't use the AAR probe for its intended purpose when I was flying the Vulcan, but it made taxying easier as it was a good reference - and was also a good standby bombsight!

[sisemen]

It also made a good exit route to slide down once your aeroplane had broken into 3 large chunks on the pan.

[Pontius Navigator]

converted a True Heading to Magnetic Heading.

Magnetic to True. There were pendulously suspended flux valves near the wing tips that sensed the earth magnetic field. This was corrected by the setting on the AVSCU. The 'melted candle' was actually dental wax. In 1964 the magvar drum was for, IIRC, 1949. Not long after there was a great leap forward and we got one for about 1956; I don't know if there was ever a later version.

The Calc 5/5A housed the triangle solver. This wonderful device had a height carriage that drove a slug to represent the aircraft height. There was a horizonal slug that was driven by the CU626 inputs to represent the range of a contact. A metal tape ran between the two. Now the clever bit. The hypotenuse on the metal tape represented the radar slant range to an object. What was needed was the actual plan range. By a suitable system of feedbacks (NBC Techs please expand) the horizontal slug would move and a pickoff on a potentiometere would feed the appropriate voltage to the Calc 1 and 2.

I gave my copy of the NBS Master Block Schematic to the RIN so I can't check now.

The AVSCU was not, AFAIK, in the Calc 5 but was a separate unit.

For odd boxes how about the little wind dubbry switch and desyns by the Nav Panel?

[Blacksheep]

In civilian use, the "Automatic Variation Setting Control Unit" is today the MagVar tabular database in the non-volatile memories of the Flight Management Systems. It is next due to be updated in 2012, when it will only be two years out of date. (The current MagVar tables are about 11 years out of date). The separate GPIs used their own integral MagVar conversion cam to help them continuously plot Long/Lat long before the advent of Inertial Reference systems, but circuit flying tended to get them into a groove, if you see what I mean. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

If we are talking Vulcan, the GPI6 took its heading feed as a true input from the corrected MFS and later as a true input from the HRS which was a free-running gyro.

IIRC the AVSC was a part of the compass system. The plotter would set the magvar and deviation (if any) on the MI and the AVSC pickup would then be set on the appropriate magvar contour. The magvar drum would then take lat and long feeds from the nav system (GPI? or NBC?). Longitude was set by rotation and latitude by radial movement of the pickup. The north pole was at the centre and the south pole at the edge.

As the OP suggested, it took some brainwaves to come up with those ideas. The NBC was made by EMI back in the late 40s and early 50s.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mig, I would go along with that. I do know it was in the NBS Master schematic and as the Nav Panel had the L/L dials that would be logical. Also of course the NBS reliedi on True north whereas with the GPI4 the Plotter could, if he wished, revert to A/A or Grid.

[forget]

The things you find!

Summary. The Military Flight System Compass installation in the Vulcan B Mk 2 provides a satisfactory gyro-magnetic compass system for navigational use. The Track Control Unit provides a useful and accurate navigation aid. The large amplitude Northerly phugoid instability, and the loss of gyro datum in turns, reduces the usefulness of the system and could degrade weapons system accuracy. Modifications to overcome these deficiencies are recommended.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0339998

[The Oberon]

The AVSCU cam was definitely in the Nav Panel, the ones I remember were made from resin, the last version I remember was 1964.

P.N. The Pythagorus machine was indeed in the Calc 5, but my memories of it differ slightly from yours, the height was known, from the CU 585, the Slant Range (RS) was known from first ground returns, 10.4 micro secs = 1 radar mile. The RS and Height motors adjusted the tape which in turn rotated the Plan Range (RP) potentiometer. The voltage from the RP pot was then used for a number of things including distorting the IND 301 timebase so that the picture gave Range Plan and appeared as a linear 1, .5 or .25 mill map.

As for the Wind Unit you mentioned, the servicing schedule for that unit had the following statement " Set the Stop/Start switch to Start, simultaniously starting the stop watch", bit of a mouthful.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mig, indeed I have corresponded with her.

Forget, fascinating. At that time we used to practise an evasive bomb run with a 45deg AOB turn at 1.5g through 45 degrees, reverse after 15 seconds through 90 deg, reverse after 30 seconds through 90 degrees, reverse after 15 seconds through 45 deg and roll out on bombing heading 60 seconds or so from bomb release. It would be flown at around 0.86 and 48k.

This was rather more violent than the A&AEE trial.

I recall that the answer from Smiths to the question: "How far may the system precess during these manoeuvres?" was "no more than 180 degrees."

[Pontius Navigator]

the height was known, from the CU 585,

The only thing I would disagree with was height from the 585. One did a radar height finding on the 585 which was used to determine the D-factor from 1013 and hence calibrate the system for true height. The 585 also had the target height dial too which was a further correction to determine height above ground.

A radar height finding had to be carried out near the target and over Russia flat areas suitable for height finding were depicted on ULAC - uniform level area charts. These were Lamberts charts a a scale of 1:2,188,000 and really useless for anything else. They were also classified Confidential.

Change of height was pressure driven although it may well have fed back to servos in the 585 for feed to the calc 5.

[BEagle]

The large amplitude Northerly phugoid instability...

Which was often apparent on approaches to RW03 (as it was then) at Waddington - you could get in phase with the instability and develop a diverging weave if you tried to respond too quickly.

If the MFS/HRS switch was selected to HRS and the the plotter dialled in the correct value (which was non-SOP for approaches - you were supposed to fly on MFS), you could fly very smooth and accurate approaches though!

I often wonder what the Vulcan would have been like with modern avionics and fuel/CG management - and perhaps even fly by wire?

Astonishing technology for its day though!

[The Oberon]

There used to be a rumour amongst "us fairies" that crews preferred to fly with the Blue Steel nav system slaved in as it was better than the platform system, any truth ??

[Pontius Navigator]

Oberon, I was FF but I believe you were right. The BS had a low grade stable table but was fine as long as it had nav updates and doppler feeds.

Once we got the HRS then it was a whole different ball game 0.25deg/hr drift rate even without FMA and input of ke and kn. It was far more serviceable than BS and always there!

[The Oberon]

I sometimes wonder how Blackbuck would have got on without Carousel ? Same question ref the Victors and Corporate without Carousel and Omega.

[Pontius Navigator]

A heading error of 0.25/hr at 480 knots equates to an azimuth error of about 2 nm/hr. Given a flight time of 6.5 hrs that could give an uncorrected error of 13 miles - well within the accuracy requirements for the H2S to update and acquire the target.

However the mission was a night mission with the availability of astro. The norm was a fix every 40 minutes but over that length of sortie it is likely they would have dropped to one fix per hour. Terminal errors, given a serviceable doppler and HRS would have been no more than 10 miles - about half the error of the dop/HRS alone.

Given a good autopilot and calm conditions at astro could have been better than that.

[Tankertrashnav]

I remember taking a Jaguar over the pond to Goose en route to Nellis. We flew as a pair of Victor tankers and all the way over we were getting fixes from the Jag mate, who had the luxury of INS. It was a bit galling that the combined efforts of 4 navs (using essentially the same kit you had in Vulcans) couldnt do as well as one pilot reading off a dial, but that was a glimpse of the future for dedicated navigators, I suppose.

Btw the weekend at Nellis (well, Las Vegas) was very good - better than working for a living, as we used to say!

[Tankertrashnav]

The last reunion in April 2010 was generally regarded a great success, and as we are all getting on a bit it was thought that perhaps we better not wait another 6 years before organising another. Newark Air Museum were keen too, so we have decided to go ahead. The next reunion will be held on Saturday 28th April 2012. This is just advance notice, we aren't doing bookings for a while yet, but I will be getting the reunion website up and running fairly shortly. This will have all the info you will need and I will be posting a link to that on here. Just a reminder that the reunion is for all ranks, aircrew or groundcrew, who operated the Valiant, Victor or Vulcan, together with their families, so please help by passing the word on to any of your former comrades who may not otherwise get to hear of it, and make a note of that date now.

Mods - I hope you wont mind me posting an identical entry on 2 threads, just want to reach as many as possible - pity we dont have a Valiant thread.

[Evanelpus]

Tanker

Would the 2012 reunion only be open to RAF personnel?

I worked for 10 years on Vulcan for a civilian contactor and would love to attend (availability willing).

[Tankertrashnav]

At the first reunion in 2004 we had a man who had worked for HP actually constructing the Victor, and he was very welcome, as you would be too.

[Tankertrashnav]

V Force Reunion 2012
As promised the reunion website is now up and running again - here's the link V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/). Please take a look, all the info we have so far is on the site. We've already had our first booking, so it's never too early to let us know if you'd like to come, even if you can't commit to it yet.

[john huggins]

Hi, I am currently living in Florida, drop me an e-mail at [email protected] be good to hear from you.

[Vulcan_baby]

Hi,
I've just joined the forum having been fascinated by it for a couple of years ever since I googled my Dad and his name came up in one post. I must apologise for the number of questions I'm about throw out.

Firstly, the thread says there are 87 pages but I can't seem to get past page 82. Are the remaining ones locked out or there are actually only 82 pages?

I'm interested in any stories anyone might have about having served with Dad or interesting tidbits. (obviously, if there are things that should only be Pm'd then I'm happy to receive them that way)

My initial search turned up a picture of him with a winning crew in one of the competitions but I can't remember which one. I know I'd spotted it and sent him a link but can't find either now. I'd like to collect any pictures there may be out there as I only have a couple including the Queen's birthday flight crew picture where they were the leading plane. It would be nice for my son to have pictures of Grandpa during his service years if they can be found.

Dad is Adrian 'Taff' Traylor AEO who was Flying Officer at Waddington on 101 and Instructor on OCU at Scampton. We were posted to Malta '72 to '74 and he was then posted to 51SQN RAF Wyton onto Nimrods (for anyone interested, one of his OCU Vulcans, XM575, is the one at East Midlands Aeropark where I am a member of the volunteers association and one of his Nimrods from Wyton is flying into NEMA on Tuesday and following decommissioning will be living with us shortly). Dad is still hale and hearty and living just outside Cognac. He's over occasionally, was at the last V-Force reunion and I have told him about the next. He'll also be over with us the first weekend in september if anyone would like to catch up. PM me if interested.

I'm also wondering if the Vulcan that was mentioned having gone down in Northumberland (VERY early in the thread and been watched by a forum member whilst at school) is the one that is mentioned in Vulcan 607 at the beginning where a crew bails out?

I'm amazingly grateful to everyone who has had anything to do with getting XH558 back into the sky because it has not only brought me misty-eyed memories of being very young and hearing that amazing sound, but it has meant that my 5 year old son has had a couple of chances to experience some of my childhood memories. In fact, at RAF waddington Airshow last sunday (3rd July) it was him who leapt up and shouted 'It's the Vulcan Daddy' almost the second that she powered her engines for take off. That wonderful howl hadn't even started at that point. Guess who was a VERY proud daddy at that moment!

Thanks for your help in advance all and thanks for the awesone recollections I have so far read.

[BEagle]

Firstly, the thread says there are 87 pages but I can't seem to get past page 82. Are the remaining ones locked out or there are actually only 82 pages?


Those are the classified pages referring to our chemtrail operations of the 1960s....:ooh:






























...actually, it's nothing of the sort ;) ! The cause is a known bug in the website software. Just click 'Last' to see the most recent page.

[Pontius Navigator]

Vulcan Baby, see PM

[Barksdale Boy]

VB

I had the great pleasure of flying with your father on my first tour and his second on 101 sqn from April 1968 to April 1970. The Bomb Comp you mention occurred just after we had arrived on the squadron and were still non-op. Taff flew with another crew, Mick Hibberd's I think, and they won the Comms trophy. He was an AEO of the highest calibre, but could be irritating on the subject of Welsh rugby, then in its heyday. I'm sure I must have some pictures of him somewhere; I'll look them out and get back to you. I haven't seen him since 1974 - I hear that like me he has thickened somewhat at the girth.

[forget]

Vulcan baby, I believe the competition photo you mention was posted by me from a '60s Air Clues. I still have it and I'll knock up a hi-res copy for you. But first - can anyone see this post. :{

For some reason (I think) I'm the only one who can see my efforts.

PS. I do remember your Dad. I fixed the radio and ECM stuff he broke every time he flew ;) - and from Rugby.

[Vulcan_baby]

Barksdale Boy, thanks for that (I should really get him on here shouldn't I? haha). He mentioned that particular competition and as you can imagine he is still a little sore about the final outcome. He went AEO for that crew when theirs went sick, the crew came last in the Nav competition but were redeemed when Dad won the Comms trophy. The crew won a trip to Perth , Western Australia, and took THEIR OWN AEO, not him. I think the phrase he used about he and his crew was 'spitting blood'. Nice to know that gratitude and honour were seen there. Without him they'd have sunk. But hey-ho. Maybe a measure of guilt has been felt ever since, we can but hope. Don't worry, by the way, he's still as nuts on Rugby as he ever was but obviously the achievements of the Welsh teams have not lived up to those heady days. It's more fun in his household now as my stepmother is Scottish and also very into Rugby. Makes for some very intense moments during certain matches, lol.

Another name he has mentioned is Hugh Prior, Martin Wither's AEO, who will have endured six weeks of Dad banging on about the various instruments, lol.

I will attempt to get him to register and join in the conversations so there can be a number of re-acquaintances made. He's having a few computer nightmares at the moment as someone 'fixed' his computer and, despite wanting to remain with XP, the person put a dodgy copy of Windows 7 on and it's knackered his home tower. The laptop he's using is not great. I'm taking him shopping for a new one in September.

By that way, I think I may have mentioned earlier, September 4th is an open day at East Midlands Aeropark and and has said he'd like to go as the Nimrod R1 will be sitting pretty there by then. XM575 is the pride of the park there. How long we'll be there I don't know (5 year olds are notoriously difficult to pin down and mine is no exception but ALWAYS has to be there) but if anyone else fancies going then it might be a nice meet. If anyone has any 575 stories. memories, pictures then I know the Aeropark will be over the moon to know anything. I bought the Haynes book about the Vulcan and one of the first pictures has 575 in anti-flash white and they were ecstatic.

[Vulcan_baby]

An extra about the crew in Thunderball...... I mentioned Mr Mills, being the pilot that is in shot the longest, climbing aboard. His name is Antony 'Tony' Mills. Not to be confused with the one who joined up in the early 80s only to be flying a desk fairly soon after. Our Tony left the RAF in 1979 to fly with Monarch Airlines until retiring in 2000. More than that I can't add, the internet is now such a minefield of possible information that you need to try loads of permeations of search words and tonight I am stopping after a couple of hours. Tired.

[Vulcan_baby]

http://nu-grunge.com/ttsmall.jpg

Circa 1969 101 Waddington

http://nu-grunge.com/qbf.jpg

The crew of the leading plane on the Queen's birthday flypast 1971

[PPRuNe Pop]

Please re-size these photos to no more than 850x850. They widen the pages.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Thanks BEags.

We do our best to make the owners get rid of the few irritations we have but it doesn't always work - or at least THEY don't!

Cheers,

PPP

[Pontius Navigator]

Ricky Crowder in the centre I see, he was at the Newark reunion last year.

Note the sartorial attire of our intrepid aviators. Blue flying suits, green ones, open necked shirts etc etc. The Polos didn't come in till late '72-'73. Now had they been a static crew for a VIP that would have been different.

Looking closer the plotter also seems to be modelling the dark grey temperate climate flying suit. Not bad, 5 crew and at least 4 different outfits.

[Yellow Sun]

Looking closer the plotter also seems to be modelling the dark grey temperate climate flying suit. Not bad, 5 crew and at least 4 different outfits.

It's an OCU crew, what do you expect;)

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

YS, ah! IIRC Ricky was CI was he not. Who is the other pilot with him, looks familiar?

[Blacksheep]

It's an OCU crew, what do you expectThey're the smartest looking Vulcan crew I've ever seen. I especially like the lovely best blue SD Caps. So much smarter than the proper ones that get stuffed in the Nav Bag while airborne. ;)

[Barksdale Boy]

PN

I think that at the time the QB flypast photo was taken Ricky Crowder was CFI (note the Sqn Ldr rank braid). However, I'm fairly certain he was CI later. I can't remember who the CI was in 1971.

[Pontius Navigator]

BB, my eyes are dim, I cannot see, I had not got my specs with me.

[Vulcan_baby]

Thanks to Mum, who is with us today, the unknown chappy is John LeBrun. He was a French-Canadian (we believe) and used to live round the corner from us in North Hykeham.

[Pontius Navigator]

VB, thank you. Now I should recognised him. Mind you I would have sworn I had flown with him but found I haven't. I see though that Ricky was the captain on one OCU sortie. Equally surprising I thought I had flown with Don Briggs but found I hadn't but that I had flown with Joe L'Estrange when he was posted to 35 - another fact I had forgotten.

On stealling sorties I see I flew with IX to UK and back for some reason when I was on 35.

[India Four Two]

In 1968, while on the UBAS Summer Camp at Lindholme, a group of us went to Finningley to have a look around a Vulcan.

I have a very clear memory of looking down the length of the bomb bay (with the doors closed) but I cannot remember how we got there. Can someone refresh my memory concerning the access to the bomb bay?

[forget]

There was an access hatch at the forward end of the doors.

[Yellow Sun]

Can someone refresh my memory concerning the access to the bomb bay?

Yes, There was a split hatch at the front of the bomb bay doors. Now for the associated trivia, the internal lights in the bomb bay were controlled by a master switch in the nose wheel bay. To remember that isn't just sad, it's tragic!:hmm:

YS

[alisoncc]

Remember the split hatch well. Used to have to climb through it in order to sort out the STR18 aerial coupler at the rear of the bomb bay. Thought it was a neat idea, the notch in the base of the rudder, thus using the whole of the airframe as an antenna. Pity the mechanics of the coupler weren't up to the task, jamming with some regularity.

[sisemen]

A slightly more standard crew!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/GSUcrew.gif

1 Group Standardisation Unit

L-R - Sqn Ldr Adams (plt) Flt Lt Prescott (nav plot) Sqn Ldr Watkins (AEO) Wg Cdr Smeaton (plt) AVM Steedman (VIP pax) Flt Lt McRae (nav rad)

[mike rondot]

I have a new Vulcan painting ready to go to press. Instead of the usual suspects as signatories I was thinking of inviting a Vulcan crew + crewchief and groundcrew to sign it. Do you by any chance know of a group to fit that bill living in the Norfolk area? I am at Dereham and would be pleased to host a lengthy lunch and short signing session (30 mins) at my local.
The place I have in mind serves great food, *in the style of an aircrew feeder, has good beer and is open as long as you care to sit and talk bollocks with your mates.
Late October/early November 2011. First team of 7or8 to call me is in.
Google is your finder.
Mike Rondot

[Pontius Navigator]

Mike, don't be so dismissive of aircrew feeders. The food there for QRA crews was often of a higher standard than officer's messes. A Sunday lunch might consist of a whole salmon set out in a bed of aspic jelly with melon or lemon sampans on the green lake.

One year the officer's mess was instructed to create the buffet for the summer ball based on the food provided in the buffet. One reason was the 'special' diet required for high altitude flight required 'special' foods and attracted a higher per capita per meal rate. A typical feeder on a week day might produce over 30 breakfasts, lunches, dinners and suppers not to mention 45 or so inflight meals.

Back to the OQ, try Tankertrashnav. While not on the mighty V his is in touch with a number of Vulcan aircrew and may well be able to contact a near complete crew. Of my era several are unfortunately flying in higher places.

[mike rondot]

Thanks. I meant no disrespect to that fine institution - the aircrew feeder - I had my share of grub from the feeder at Wyton while on PR9s during the 1970s. Sadly, our sortie length did not merit the grand style of cuisine reserved for 51 Squadron but we did occasionally feed from their scraps.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the nudge in my direction, P-N, Mike has been in touch and Ive suggested he try an 'ad' on the V Force Reunion website, as any contacts I have in Norfolk are not surprisingly old Victor hands.

Re Aircrew feeders, certainly the one at Marham produced good plain fare, but in six years I can count the salmon on aspic served there on the fingers of no hands! Or were you, as I suspect, pulling our proverbials ;) Mind you, as we were merely tankertrash, maybe the good stuff was all saved for Scampton & Waddington. In-flights could sometimes go wrong -we once did a Marham - Catania - Marham slot on two packets of Maltesers between 5 of us, possibly the only occasion when a survival knife has been used to cut a Malteser in two!