Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)

[Lyneham Lad]

Got a shilling to spare, Guv?
Vulcan XH558 needs £100,000 to complete flight-test programme (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/12/14/220313/vulcan-xh558-needs-100000-to-complete-flight-test.html)

Flight International today:-

The Vulcan To The Sky Trust is in desperate need for £100,000 ($200,000) to fund the completion of the flight-test programme for Avro Vulcan XH558, which would enable the V-Bomber to participate in the 2008 air show season.

Click on the link for full story.
:{

[Padhist]

Thank you Flatiron,
I am pleased to learn that our efforts were not completely in vain.
Would Joe l'Estrange be the same that I did Mosquito conversions with In 1954 Seleter.
How these youngsters grow up !!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Padhist, could be. I first knew Joe just 10 years after that so it could fit.

[Ramshornvortex]

.....and on 11th February 1984 Joe delivered XM655 to Wellesbourne Mountford. Reading this has just prompted me to re-watch the old video of the delivery flight, those Olympus 301s were just as smoky then as they are today!:)

[Box Brownie]

It was marvelous to see him appear out of the murk that day.

[cheese bobcat]

Is Uncle Joe still alive? If so, anyone know where he is?

[Tim McLelland]

Joe kindly supplied me with some photographs from his collection for my Vulcan book. He said he restricted his flying activities to much smaller/lighter aircraft these days. Pity - if only he could get his hands on XH558 at Bruntingthorpe;)

[ZH875]

There could only be one Joe L'Estrange! ***

Flew with him on 50 Sqn (http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/h50.html), Vulcan K2, XH560, 29 Feb 1984, & last flight, 01 Mar 1984, Vulcan B2, XM597. We disbanded at the end of that month, when (IIRC) he did the final display. He went on to AEF flying at some stage afterwards. Marvellous character!! :ok:

(*** = apparently not, there is another one (http://www.moraygallery.com/home/content/view/25/39/)! But not much chance of getting them mixed up...)

Joe did the 50 Sqn (http://www.lancaster-archive.com/50sqn.htm) disbandment flight, and my ears are still ringing, as he stood the aircraft on its tail over 5 hangar, the roof rattled and all sorts of bird guano and nesting materials descended over the parade.

As a regular see off and debrief erk, had many dealings with him, and he was a real gent. Another of 50's gents was AEO Sqn Ldr John Shaw, who provided the 'go cart' for the race round E dispersal. (It was his ride on lawn mower in for a service with the Radar SNCO.....:E)

[samueltstewart]

Can you confirm if Caskie (XL389/444) is actually Bertram V Caskie DFC (known as Bert). He was previously with 142 and 150 Squadrons and was awarded DFC on 5.1.43. I am researching family history and he was my Mother-in Law's best man at her wedding to his cousin. Any info you can provide would be most welcome.

Thanks and Regards
Trevor Stewart

[Wader2]

Trevor

Very feint memory of a Jock Caskie.

I don't think the one you are looking for is your man.

There were older pilots on the Mk 2s in the 60s. As a wartime DFC in 1943 that would put him at about 23-25 then and 47-50 5 ish on the Vulcan.

There were still a sprinkling of medal ribbons around the bomber bases then but usually at wg cdr level with the odd sqn ldr.

To give you an idea, ex-sgt nav, shot down in 1943 after the dams raid, at Waddo in 1967 was an 'old man' compared with all the operational aircrew.

[BEagle]

Vulcanologists may wish to know that the third part of the 558 Restoration DVD has been delayed slightly, so probably won't be released until late Feb.

Primetime Joannna has expressed sincere apologies for the production delay. But I'm sure it'll be well worth the wait!

Oh, and Tombstone, I'm still waiting.......

[JEM60]

Anyone got any news of KEVIN DEARMAN, who taught me to fly with Wycombe Air Centre as a civvy instructor, whilst he was a Wing Commander in the RAF. Used to regale me with many tales of flying the Tin Triangle.

[Pontius Navigator]

JEM,

Yes, now Gp Capt rtd. He is in the RAF Historical Society. I forget exactly what but was an official.

[JEM60]

Many thanks, Pontius. He was a great guy to fly with, and taught me much more than he needed to. Glad he is alive and well.

[Brian Abraham]

Some yarns for the fans.

http://www.jet-flight.net/vvisits.html

[Wader2]

Brian, nice article, shame that his chronology is wrong in places. I have only skimmed the article but the problem is that once published it can take on a life of its own. He talks of the Mk 1 and Mk 1a being phased out in 1964. Certainly the phase out may have started then, if not earlier, but there were 3 Mk 1a sqns at Waddo in 1967. I think, IIRC, that the phase out was Jul 67 but I would need to check my log book.

[Meek]

Those of you who remember Al and missed his obituary here on PPrune, might want to search and leave a comment.

I flew with him many times on B737s and will always remember him as a gentleman and extremely professional pilot.

[BEagle]

Well, I think it's fair to say that some four-and-a-half years after this thread was started, this weekend proved that if enough people have enough faith in a project, pretty well anything can be done!

So well done to one and all. Not just to VTST, but also to everyone who has contributed time, money and enthusiasm to see XH558 once again displayed in front of tens of thousands of people at an air show. Many - if not most - of whom will never have seen a Vulcan fly before.

:ok:

And as for you, Tombstone......:=

[nacluv]

In an attempt to divert the thread away from BEagle's anal obsession (and inevitable upcoming sexual harassment case brought about by Tombstone) I have a serious question to ask.

We all know that the B2 has that distinctive induction resonance howl on full power. What I want to know is, did the B1s and B1As display the same characteristic?

I'm guessing that they probably didn't as the inlets were a different (narrower) shape. B1s were a bit before my time, but I can't imagine a Vulcan without the howl!

Cheers, Nac

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

For what it's worth, as someone who spent many a school holiday watching (and listening to) Vulcan 1s engine running on the de-tuners, I do not recall that sound from the Olympus 100 series. Many years ago, I was told by a, sadly now late, departed, member (Alan C) of BAe's XM603 Club that the Vulcan displayers preferred the OLY 201s because of their distinctive sound. Their own 301 powered machine did not produce it. Something to do with cropped compressor blades, as I remember it.

[Argonautical]

If you want to hear the "howl" look at my post in the Waddington thread.

[ZH875]

For what it's worth, as someone who spent many a school holiday watching (and listening to) Vulcan 1s engine running on the de-tuners, I do not recall that sound from the Olympus 100 series. Many years ago, I was told by a, sadly now late, departed, member (Alan C) of BAe's XM603 Club that the Vulcan displayers preferred the OLY 201s because of their distinctive sound. Their own 301 powered machine did not produce it. Something to do with cropped compressor blades, as I remember it.


Also, IIRC, the 201's would accelerate (spool up) faster than the 301's, so if you needed lots of power quickly, the 201's would be better.

As far as I can remember, the howl is equally apparent on both engine types.

Now, if only they would get the Rapid Start system functioning, that would really wow the crowds.

[kluge]

But beware of any Black Buck airshow reenacments - crowd line comes to mind.

Superb job though. Truly superb. Well done.

[beefix]

XH875
The rapid air start system was the very devil to maintain and not many Vulcans had both port and stbd systems servicable at the same time. The system also required a very large amount of compressed air at 6000 psi. I'm sure that somebody would be able to provide a suitable supply of air but at what cost? Then there's the problem of getting the compressed air to the display venue!! It would be nice to see a "ripple rapid" start again but somehow I don't think it will happen.:{

[ZH875]

XH875
The rapid air start system was the very devil to maintain and not many Vulcans had both port and stbd systems servicable at the same time. The system also required a very large amount of compressed air at 6000 psi. I'm sure that somebody would be able to provide a suitable supply of air but at what cost? Then there's the problem of getting the compressed air to the display venue!! It would be nice to see a "ripple rapid" start again but somehow I don't think it will happen.:{


And the Rapid Air system gave one of the Vulcan ASCs his nickname, when he was a brand new crew chief, he snagged every system that had a leak. He became know as Leaky Th**pe. Dave, where are you?


ZH875

[Rocket2]

As I recall using the rapid start system limited the starter motor/turbine to only seven starts (or something similar - sure someone can put an exact figure on it) before it was lifex. Bit of a no go for a cash & spares limited TVOC.
Well done on achieving what seemed the impossible folks by the way (including the help provided by the CAA). :D
R2

[Vulcan 903]

What a great display today and THANK YOU VTTS for getting me to this location to film 558. Even the security guy moved out of the way for me!

My clip is here: YouTube - Avro Vulcan XH558 18/07/08 Farnborough Display (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNhpYuguRM) :ok:

[BEagle]

Well, I think that welcher Tombstone should have been made to run along the entire Farnborough runway with a rose at the 'low port'!

It sounds as though today's display was particularly good!

[Brian Dixon]

I was lucky enough to be there for the first flight last Wednesday and took this vid from opposite the public area. Hope you like it and well done to everyone who made this possible.

MVI_0370.flv - Video - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dogpo/?action=view&current=MVI_0370.flv)

Brian :D:D:D

[scudpilot]

Was also lucky enough to be at Farnborough this week (working security, so seen a lot of the action airside as it looks like you did Brian....) was looking after the media tent and met the vulcan crew after, thoroughly nice bunch of chaps.. mentioned that I had recently read the book about the Vulcan raid on Port Stanley, and was told that these guys crewed that flight! Really honoured to meet them....:ok:

[XH536]

Was going through the 9 squadron Operation Record book for 62-66 last week and noticed the following categories for crews appearing every few months or so.

Select
Select Star
Combat
Combat Star

can anyone explain what the ratings were for? or how they were achieved

Cheers

john

[BEagle]

Later replaced by:

Operational
Combat
Senior
Command

Crew qualifications which had to be earned by achieving the required standards in all aspects of flying, bombing, EW etc.

[Yellow Sun]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3296/2684033177_ca9d40a302.jpg

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

the correct sequence was Combat, Combat Star, Select and select Star.

On arrival there was pressure on for a crew to become qualified for QRA and this was usually achieved after a sqn cdr's check ride, and before the crew was Combat. There was no category for limited combat ready.

Then, in a 6 month period, jul-dec or jan-jun, the crew had to undertake a number of stats, different approaches, different navigation exercises and most crucially drop a number of bombs with a specific accuracy. These were 'classification' attacks on some targets. The crew had to be fully constituted (except for the copilot).

If the requirements were met the crew would then be awarded the next grade.

There was another difference later dropped.

A Combat crew was allocated 320 hrs per year whereas a Select Star crew ony got 280. Also some rangers were supposed to ge given to Combat crews, such as Norway for 2-3 days. Longer rangers such as Goose Bay or Akrotiri was for Combat Star and a Western Ranger to Offutt to Select Star. That was the theory.

But I was on Ops before I was Combat and my crew went on a Western Ranger before we were Select.

[Pontius Navigator]

What it did bring was significantly less hours. I would have to check my first log book but in our final training period we got just 88 hours compared with the original Combat target of 160. We had one overseas trip and that was Gardermoen with a single night stop.

Also, when we switched from the old system we reverted from Select Star to Combat and had to start again creeping up the ladder.

[Shadwell the old]

Yellow Star

I have one of those (earned not from e bay!)

Shadwell

[mstjbrown]

I think that the ratings (Combat, Select etc.) were a direct copy of the way Strategic Air Command assessed their crews. It has all the hallmarks of an American system. Sadly we didn't get more money for being Select Star. I'm not sure we really knew what it meant.

[Yellow Sun]

Yellow Star

I have one of those (earned not from e bay!)

Shadwell

Shadwell,

I earned mine, and I have the certificate in my one of logbooks as well.


YS

[Shadwell the old]

Yellow sun,

My sincere apologies. I did not mean to suggest that you did not earn yours. Re reading my post I can see how you would read that into what I said. My intention was to head off at the pass anyone sugesting that I did not earn mine.

As usual the (in my case ex) AEO was misunderstood!!

Regards

Shadwell

[Yellow Sun]

Shadwell,

Apology accepted, thank you.

YS

[Dundiggin']

BEages old chap.......

I asked a person (ginger bint - who doesn't log onto Pprune but judging from her manner was a person of huge self importance :eek:) in attendance at the Vulcan tent at Farnborough about the 'welcher' Tombestone and was thoroughly put in my place when she said 'He's no welcher he did the deed at Marham.' Sounded as if she was Tombestone's mum - very protective! Has not the deed been done?

[BEagle]

That was probably the fearsome Drewett?

Tombstone claimed to have done the deed, but failed to provide the promised evidence. On 3 Dec 2007 he stated "Prank WILL be released in good time", but nothing has been heard since then.......:hmm:

[philrigger]

;)
BEagle

That was probably the fearsome Drewett?

Tell us more !!








'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[Flatiron]

558 lifting off at Farnborough last week was a wonderful sight,. The sound of four Olympii starting up also brought a lump to my throat after 25 years. Congratulations all round.

As an aside, Ospery is publishing my 'Vulcan Units of the Cold War' next February. The cover art work shows XM597 firing a Shrike on Black Buck 6. The publisher and I would like to make contact with Neil McDougall and his 50 Sqn crew to invite them along to the book launch. Does anybody know where Neil and the rest of the team are nowadays?

Many thanks. Andy Brookes

[Bravo73]

;)
BEagle

That was probably the fearsome Drewett?

Tell us more !!


http://www.tvoc.co.uk/images/staff/rusty.jpg

Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan Operating Company (http://www.tvoc.co.uk/operating_company.asp)

[BEagle]

Yes, that's the famous Rusty who works tirelessly for the '558 programme and doesn't suffer fools gladly - she'd sooner deal with people who can contribute something useful!

And I should really have written 'formidable', not 'fearsome' - as that could be considered insulting :=.

You'd only have something to fear if you crossed her. And then be afraid....very afraid ;)!!

[philrigger]

;)
Bravo73, BEagle

Thanks for that. 'Fearsome' sounded more interesting but formidable is more friendly.









'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar'.

[tantalite]

Was also there for the Wednesday display, lovely to hear 558 growl again. Had an Indian colleague with me who had never seen a Vulcan fly, he was impressed!
I was at Waddo for the last flight in '93, could not make the return to the sky flight but was delighted to be present for a very early display.. long may it continue!!

[boguing]

I'm told that a Vulcan performed a fly past of Barnes Wallis' house on the day of his funeral. Mrs Wallis warned a good friend to keep his head down if he heard a noise - but wouldn't elaborate. He was up a ladder on their neighbours' chimney, and impressed.

I don't suppose any of that crew are hereabouts?

[forget]

I don't know about Barnes Wallis but Donald Campbell got an unofficial Vulcan fly-by after his accident. Very interesting story below. I was on the line at Cottesmore at the time and I seem to remember some 'OMG what have we done!' attached to the routine de-brief.

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Campbell's Bluebird (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1253140&postcount=79)

[boguing]

Loved the Donald Campbell story. You would do it, wouldn't you?

Just been doing a little digging on Barnes Wallis; and it's obvious really. It was 617 Squadron, (Scampton?) October/November 1979.

But who were the crew? Which Vulcan was it? Woulld they like to meet that terrified juvenile builder? In Dorking...

And now, strangely, I find that Elliott Automation (for whom my Pa worked at one time) may have been involved in the AP? And, if that is the case, maybe I need to offer to do floor sweeping for 558. (We lived in Borehamwood from my arrival in 1957, moved to near Rochester in about 1962 until '67 - when he got his dream job with RR in 1967/8). I knew they did the AP for the Draken/Viggen, but the Vulcan? Did Elliott come up with Autoland?

[ChristiaanJ]

boguing,
Food for some separate topics, almost :)
And now, strangely, I find that Elliott Automation (for whom my Pa worked at one time) may have been involved in the AP? (We lived in Borehamwood from my arrival in 1957, moved to near Rochester in about 1962 until '67 - when he got his dream job with RR in 1967/8).I worked for SFENA, the French half of the Elliott/SFENA consortium that did the Concorde AP. But this was in the very early 70s, so your Pa's and my path wouldn't have crossed, although I've been to Rochester.I knew they did the AP for the Draken/Viggen, but the Vulcan? Vickers and then BAC worked with Elliott, deHavilland worked with Smith. I don't know about Avro.
Maybe somebody here remembers the label on the AP?
Did Elliott come up with Autoland?I don't think so... the concept was around. Smith went for a triplex system (Trident...), Elliott went for a dual-monitored system (VC10, Concorde...). IIRC the first full autoland in the UK was a Smith equipped Trident.

Did the Vulcan have Autoland at some time in its career?

[El_Presidente]

Not really a Vulcan story per se, but I recall a certain Wg Cdr Adams who when I met him was Wg Cdr Cadets at DIOT Cranditz had Vulcan sorties in his log book...and a few tales, recounted in the bar after a few shandies...

A really nice chap, one who showed faith in a certain young potential JO...

:ok:

Sadly taken by Cancer far too young.

[ZH875]

Did the Vulcan have Autoland at some time in its career?

IIRC A Vulcan B1 (XA890) of the Blind Landing Exerimental Unit,was the first 4 jet engined aircraft in the world to carry out a fully automatic landing.

[SRAM]

You are quite right about " Oh my ,what is going on?" We knew there was something afoot as we taxied on to the pan and saw the Staish waiting to ask a question or two. I was the Nav Rad.

[Old Hairy]

Smiths Autoland trials where carried out at Boscombe Down on both the Vulcan B2 and VictorMk2 in 1963.flew on both of them and got the certificate,
"Certified translated from airborne to ground, without let or hindrance from human hand" somewhere in the attic

[Milt]

Smith's Mk10 Auto Pilot on the Vulcan Mk1 at Boscombe Down required many test hours coupling it to the Nav Bomb System and for auto ILS approaches. After finding the optimum settings on each avionic coupling unit we had to ensure that full rate runaways of the AP would not overstress the aircraft out to all corners of its manoeuvre envelope.

Adjustable spring struts interposed between the AP and the flight control system provided positive AP disconnects for all critical cases. One complication arose with the AP coupled for an auto ILS approach when the spring struts set for protection at high IAS could not cope with the AP inputs needed at the lower approach speeds. Problem solved by decreasing the forces from the flight control feel units when approach selected.

Would like to hear if there were any AP manoeuvering problems in squadrons ?

[BEagle]

We were advised to ensure that the aircraft was slightly out of trim before connecting the AP, so that it had something to 'work against' - otherwise we were told that it would tend to hunt. I never did find out whether this was true, or just BS.

On an Auto-ILS, the aircraft was quite lively. There was a 180KIAS limit for flying with 'Track, LOC+GP' selected with the AP.

Flew all the way back across the pond once without an AP - we took 20 minute turns to fly the jet.

[forget]

Ring any bells? From a Sim site, but looks pretty accurate.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/vauto.jpg

[BEagle]

Yes, it's the MFS selector.

A frankly bizarre system which used a fixed, but manually rotatable compass card. Most pilots prefer the aircraft heading to be at the top!

I can't remember what 'Datum' did - but most of the other selections are reasonably obvious and affect such things as the Azimuth Director Pointer demand rate. I don't recall ever having used the 'Mach' selection; presumably it was used for cruise climbs at constant IMN when such things were permitted?

Autopilot and Heading Reference System / Military Flight System selectors were on other panels.

The HRS used an ex-Lightning Master Reference gyro. A pity that the MFS displays weren't thrown out and proper instruments fitted when HRS was fitted!

[forget]

More bells ringing? ( But I don't remember this.) From the same Sim site HERE (http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/review/pssvulc/pssvulc.htm)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/v2.jpg

[BEagle]

Smiths Autopilot controller. Conveniently sited on the retractable fuel tray panel about as far away from the instrument panel as possible. Hence the differently shaped knobs which you could identify by touch.

The aircraft was quite lively in Track, with LOC+GP on the MFS, but settled down once on the glide path with the Glide knob pulled.

You weren't supposed to fly with HRS steering on the approach. But the HRS was much more deadbeat than the MFS - you could get into a divergent lateral motion chasing the ADP at the same rate as the compass 'dot-crossing' rate in MFS if you weren't careful to let it damp out. So one dark wet night my captain elected to fly a PAR with the Nav Plotter controlling the HRS steer signal and it worked like a charm.

I've heard of people TFR'ing with HRS and Track, but with the E(levator) channel out. The autopilot looked after lateral navigation and they followed the MFS pitch pointer manually. I never tried that - we always flew manually at low level even though the aircraft was quite heavy in roll.

[sisemen]

I recall a certain Wg Cdr Adams

El Presidente was this the same bloke??

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/1GSU.jpg

[haltonapp]

The average Chief Tech rigger nowadays will have more medals than that lot put together!

Sorry for thread creep, I couldn't resist!!!

[El_Presidente]

Quote:
I recall a certain Wg Cdr Adams
El Presidente was this the same bloke??

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/1GSU.jpg

Looks very very similar, even if it is a few years before I knew the fella...

:ok:

[The Real Slim Shady]

BEagle

20 minutes across the Atlantic?

We had it tough!

Lost the feel system getting airborne out of McLellan going to Hickam and it would not re-engage.

Being as I was the co-pilot and the Captain ( Flt Cdr) was doing his ATPL exams prior to retiring I flew the b8gger from McLellan to Hickam to Guam to Hickam to McLellan to Loring to Waddo.

I'm good at S & L :):)

Oct 27 1979 - Nov 02 1979 XH537

[BEagle]

Why on earth did the silly sod not just put the jet U/S at Hickolulu?

Dear Queen - please send some chaps and a feel sim test kit as soon as you can manage it. Do let us know when - we'll be quaffing Mai Tais at the Royal Hawaiian on Waikiki until then!

Looking at that itinerary, I suspect that I know the role you were involved in - and it wasn't just boat-spotting. Fortunately when I flew in that role in a rather more comfortable jet, we had sufficient range to avoid the need to go to Guam (or Midway).

[country calls]

We always had a list of totally trivial questions to try and catch out the new boys on the mighty C130K. One of which was 'where is the Bomb Door Compensator fitted?' It was of course on the Smiths Autopilot gubbins as fitted to the V force, which was shoe horned into Brit Hercs as part of the deal when we bought them.

My questions is what did the Bomb Door Compensator do? Obviously it makes some compensation when the doors are operated, but what and why?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Why on earth did the silly sod not just put the jet U/S at Hickolulu?

It was his swansong and a few month's before the Sqn had the epic 3 wk Pacific Ranger that included Offutt and Kef amongst the various places they visited limping around the bazaars with a very tech jet.

The Captain of that one ( famed for his driving exploits at RCDS at Waddo),quite astutely, kept a very detailed chronology of exactly what went wrong, when and where.

[BEagle]

country calls, the original Vulcan B1 had a pronounced nose-down trim change when the bomb doors were opened. So the test team and designers came up with a mechanical design to interlink the bomb doors with the elevator circuit so that the autopilot could hold the aircraft leve throughout the bomb run.

This was found to be unnecessary on aircraft with the ECM tailcone fairing, so was removed on the B1A and B2.

Another Heath Robinson compensating device was the ‘datum shift’ in the Gnat longitudinal control system which compensated for the landing gear extension forward CG movement through a piece of bike chain connected to the Hobson tailplane motor input. That gave another 3-ish degrees of TPI with the gear down. Simple, but effective!

[taxydual]

Another Heath Robinson compensating device was the ‘datum shift’ in the Gnat longitudinal control system which compensated for the landing gear extension forward CG movement through a piece of bike chain connected to the Hobson tailplane motor input. That gave another 3-ish degrees of TPI with the gear down. Simple, but effective!

BEagle, dear chap, are you making this up?!!!!!

[ChristiaanJ]

country call, BEagle,
Having worked for the competition, I wouldn't know about all this.

But did they hook up the rear door on the C130K to the same gubbins as the Bomb Door Compensator on the Vulcan?

Oh and BEagle, re the Gnat, I believe you entirely. In those days we still knew about KISS.

CJ

[sunshine band]

No, but my name will be on the bomb bay doors of XH558.:ok:

SB

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

;)

interlink the bomb doors with the elevator circuit

I thought the mighty Vulcan had elevons instead of elevators/ailerons. Or am I being picky?

[Pontius Navigator]

Aarron, IIRC the Mk 1 had elevators and ailerons.

[50+Ray]

Belated response to Post 1273 about howl.
IIRC the 200 series produced the splendid noise when the throttles were pushed fully forward. 300 series engines in my time were restricted to the cruise(T/O cruise switch wire locked), 97%. This gave the same thrust as the 200s, but missed the howl. 300 max 104% with permitted overswing to 107.5%(?) was normally only heard on the ERP when the menders were beating crap out of them. Crew Chiefs were rumoured to supply new locking wire occasionally on suitably lubricated Rangers.:)

[Gainesy]

Aviation Video: UKs RAF Avro Vulcan | Patrick's Aviation (http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Wasilj/3438/)

White B.1s:) Do your ears a favour and turn off your speakers though.:yuk:

[lasernigel]

Unfortunately due to the lack of 'family closeness' these days. I have just been informed that my Uncle, Air Commodore(rtd) Joe Matthews passed away peacefully at his home in Salmon Arm in BC about 3 months ago.
I know from previous posts on this thread that he flew Vulcans before being grounded after the 'wing incident'.
I also know that his last posting was at SHAPE headquarters before his retirement from the RAF and subsequent employment with BAE. He then retired to Canada.
I did hear that he was CO at Medmenham before his last posting.
Can any of you fill in the gaps please?

PS I am 55 today not 12 and don't know how that happened.

[Wader2]

I knew Tiny Mathews when he was OC Bomber Wg at Akrotiri. I remember the wing incident :)

[lasernigel]

I seem to remember that it was Pontius Navigator who first brought this incident to light when the crew chief 'tripped over' what he thought was an air brake that hadn't retracted fully.
Know also of his re-fuelling exploits from the same source.
But would like to try and fill in gaps. Heard he was on the commissioning board at Biggin Hill for a posting but lots of blanks, and because of what I said before family ties unfortunately not as strong as they were.

[TheVulcan]

Can anyone tell me what this thread is about and why Pprune keeps alerting me to the discussion?

[forget]

Can anyone tell me what this thread is about.

Go on, take a wild guess, you never know your luck. :ok:

[green granite]

And it alerts you cos you didn't tell it not to :hmm:

[Gainesy]

What was the wing incident? (Or is buried somwhere earlier in this thread?)

[lasernigel]

Apparently according to an earlier post about 2 years ago he took off from Iran at MTOW and did some sort of rollover. On landing at Akrotiri the crew chief was doing an inspection and walking along the wing. He tripped over on what he thought was a not fully retracted speed brake. On closer inspection found that the wing was 'rippled' and bent. Tiny's flying days ended there!

[AndoniP]

hi all, i've just finished reading this entire thread after about a week, and i'm amazed at the tales of how it used to be back in the 50s-80s.

i thought i'd share this in case you hadn't seen it (which you probably have). video of the syerston crash.

YouTube - Conway Vulcan Crash 20th September 1958 - Keith Sturt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGOY1jZGNHU)

also, does anybody know who the crew members were and which aircraft were used when filming the live takeoff/flying sequences in thunderball?

one more thing, on this photo:

http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_copyright/445bear.jpg

the entire back half of the wing surface and underside is painted white or silver, was this because it was a tanker?

thanks for the answers in advance.

regards and respect

andoni

[Vulcan 903]

The UK has been feeling the full force of the 'Vulcan Effect' this summer, with the British public flocking to witness the return of one of its greatest heroes. In the past few weeks, the newly restored Avro Vulcan bomber, XH558, has made flying appearances at three major airshows, with each one subsequently boasting a record number of attendees as the result. With a combined viewing audience of a million people, it is clear that the Vulcan is breathing new life into air shows around the UK – already the second largest spectator events in the UK after football.

The latest stop on the ‘Vulcan Tour’ will be the ‘Wings and Wheels Show’ at Dunsfold in Surrey, where she is planned to appear on Sunday 24th August. This is the first time that the Vulcan has appeared at this event and there is a great deal of excitement and anticipation at the prospect of this iconic and venerable aircraft making a long awaited and much welcome visit to the County.

With a record 490,000 visitors at Lowestoft, at least 300,000 at Farnborough and 135,000 at Waddington, the Vulcan was the key attraction for many people eager to see her back in flight, following her successful £7m overhaul spanning the last three years. Members of the Vulcan to the Sky Trust (VTST) have spent the last decade dreaming of the days XH558 would fly once again in front of sell-out crowds.

Now they dream of continuing to showcase XH558 for the next decade, as VTST Chief Executive Dr Robert Pleming explains:

“It has been absolutely terrific to see the reaction of the crowds watching the Vulcan flying at airshows, and the sheer numbers of people who have turned up to see this much-loved and admired aircraft just shows how much XH558 is valued and remembered as a true icon of British aviation. The public seems to be taking the Vulcan to their hearts in the same way as Concorde was. Without the generosity of the public, and support from sponsors and the Heritage Lottery Fund, the Vulcan would have remained in early retirement. I just hope that now we will be able to bring the aircraft to many more shows and enable the younger generation to see not only a superb example of British engineering but a living part of our history. XH558 is the only Vulcan in the world that can fly, but it’s true that without sponsorship, this display may be one of her last, and millions of people will be denied the experience of seeing this amazing aircraft in the air!”


The Vulcan is also at the centre of an educational programme, explaining not only the history of the last half of the 20th Century and its relevance to today, but also the amazing design and engineering achievements that this 1950s-era aircraft represents. It is hoped that money to keep the Vulcan flying in shows in future years will be raised through commercial sponsorship as well as by continued public donations.

[Art Field]

Tiny Mathews was a Flight Commander on 214 Valiant Squadron in 1961, indeed I was his co-pilot for a year or so. His training technique was rather of the "don't do as I do" variety but we got on well enough. I believe he had something to do with a youth sailing organization and got into a bit of trouble with them, taking them into a storm or the like. Made the national press. Best described as someone of an impetuous nature.

[Gainesy]

Off Topic
Art, do you remember a Valiant co-pilot accidentally blowing the canopy?
(If it was indeed possible).

[Art Field]

I am afraid going back that far my memory is of a maybe, I could be confusing it with a Victor incident so better keep quiet. I do remember my next captain on Valiants broke two DV windows before he learned how to open them, ex Hunters don't you know. You had to be strong to fly the Valiant, you could fly it in manual below 250kts, indeed we had to when we had a double hydraulic failure between Singaporwe and Gan, Thank god for the all electric systems. How would a Vulcan faired?.

[gsky]

Hi
Anybody know if the Vulcan flew over North Lancashire earleir today.
I only had a bried glimpse but others who saw it clearly said it was def the Vulcan
Is this correct?

Tks

[Exrigger]

Yes it did as it was flying over the Lancaster & Morecombe cemetary as a tribute to Lynne Braithwaite, who passed away last week, and who has been an integral part of the restoration project .

[ponks]

Saw the old lady do an approach into Brize at 3pm today. Not sure how long its staying there for? Did hear a rumour that it was for the weekend??

Excellent to see it flying again.:D:D:D

[Exrigger]

It is my understanding that 558 will be staying at Brize until the end of September, and then it could be back to Bruntingthorpe, but there is a possibility it might return to Waddington for a short while, but this has not been finalised yet.

[lasernigel]

Thanks Art Field much appreciated.
I believe he had something to do with a youth sailing organization and got into a bit of trouble with them, taking them into a storm or the like.

Heard he built a dinghy in his mess billet at one time as well.:ok:

Know when I refused his request to PVR from basic training in the Army and transfer to the RAF he threw a bit of a wobbler with my platoon commander(2nd Lt straight out of Sandhurst) didn't make my training much fun when they found out my Uncle was a Group Captain!:eek:

[Milt]

Art Field

Powered flying control systems in the 50s were a challenge. We TPs at BD investigated limitations. Cannot recall shutting down the feel units on the Vulcan Mk 1. Perhaps not possible. The eight control power units could be selected off individually but it would have been a wrestle to have more than two shut down at one time. The cross controlling necessary with two adjacent elevator/aileron segments inoperative was rather confusing and perhaps useable for a landing with a little practice but there may not have been enough elevator power from only two segments to flare for a landing.

The Valiant in manual was similar to losing power steering in a car. Ailerons were almost impossible above 250 kts IAS. Landings a big struggle. With feel units disconnected the nose down mass of the control columns if let loose would have taken the wings off - a terrifying experience.

Didn't have the opportunity to find the limitations of the Victor systems.

The Comet 2C could be handled gently with two of its triplicated power units shut down and the remaining system using hydraulics only from a windmilling engine. Make too big a demand and the particular control would temporarily lock up so one would be ready to re-engage one of the other systems in a hurry.

[Art Field]

Milt, very interesting. When some Vulcan1 crews were converting to AAR prior to a deployment to Australia a couple of the pilots came down to Marham to have a go in the Valiant. Mick Meadows, the AARI, demonstated a prod or two in powered controls. He then handed over control to one of the Vulcan pilots, sneakily switching off the PFCU's, turning the handling into rock hard. The visitor fought the beast for a couple of minutes getting nowhere, believing Valiant pilots were supermen before Mick switched the PFCU's back on.

[BEagle]

A similar trick was played on pilots 'guesting' in the Hunter 7. The hydroboosters were turned off 'in order to hand control to the other pilot'...:E

Re. the Tin Triangle, it didn't have hydraulically powered flight controls. Just mechanically signalled electrically powered Boulton Paul PFCUs, much like the VC10. Hydraulics only powered the bomb doors, undercarrage retraction system, wheelbrakes, nosewheel steering and AAPP intake scoop. Unlike Fred's crecent winged thing, it had no flaps/slats to worry about, the airbrakes were driven by big 3-ph AC motors and all PFCUs, autostabs and feel were powered from 4 independent AC busbars.

I can't recall whether the H2S antenna was electrically or hydraulically powered.

[Old Hairy]

Lasernigel. I had the room next door to Tiny.He did not build the dinghy,but did bring it into his room to re-varnish it. Caused havoc next morning,when the batman brought his early morning cuppa and fell arse over tit in the dark.

[50+Ray]

Ref post 1351. I recall the H2S being driven by a 112v DC supply, a legacy of the Lancaster(?). No hydraulics at the front end of the beast.
Regarding stopping PFCs for practice, IIRC the limit was 2, and numbers 1 & 3 were generally used because they could be restarted first in the A & E sequence. A bit more physical when landing with both off, but not unmanageable!
Ray

[Rigex]

IIRC, the PFCU's were indeed electrically powered, as Beags says, but the motor drove a hydraulic pump in a self - contained hydraulic system. If no command was present, the pump was idling, off- loading the motor. When a control input was made, the pump started to deliver hydraulic power which was directed to give the required movement of the control.
So, "electrically powered, hydraulically actuated".


Rigex

[FJJP]

In you were giving a polished performance on a checkride, some of the bored QFIs would get you to stop no. 3 PFCU with the surface in the fully up position [done whilst aerodynamic braking during a roller]. No 3 PFC was the biggest.

Interesting to handle, but not impossible...

[mstjbrown]

Lasernigel

I'm pretty sure that this is the same Tiny who became CO of the RAF detachment at Goose Bay.

When he was at Honington in the early 60's he was reputed to have disappeared to the States briefly to bring back a yacht which Blondie Hasler had used in a single handed transatlantic race but I can't vouch for the accuracy of that story.

A huge, quiet, courteous man.

[lasernigel]

Thanks for all the replies so far anymore would be gratefully received.:ok:

I'm pretty sure that this is the same Tiny who became CO of the RAF detachment at Goose Bay.


Probably where he got his love for Canada and then retired to eventually get his citizenship.:ok:

[Barksdale Boy]

The flypast was on November 17th 1979. The a/c was 595. The crew was Pete Branthwaite's with me flying as guest nav radar.

[tantalite]

Maybe we should rename this 'Are you flying the Vulcan' now that there bis one to fly??

[LowObservable]

A little controlled thread drift - JSF also uses electro-hydraulic actuators on its primary flight controls. Electric has been rejected because it cannot be made adequately jam-proof. The result is that instead of a single actuator on a hyd system, there is an actuator with two honking electrical pumps (primary and backup) and the whole thing is about the same size as the motor on my garden tractor, not counting the toaster-size power unit that delivers the juice to it. (Leading edge flaps are electric because you can get by without them.) Moreover, the whole shebang requires both heating and cooling.

All because someone thought it was a good idea, a long time ago.

[Will1593]

Aviation Video: UKs RAF Avro Vulcan | Patrick's Aviation (http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Wasilj/3438/)

White B.1s Do your ears a favour and turn off your speakers though.

Almost all re-edited footage from 'Vulcan Squadron - Delta 8-3 - A story of a Vulcan Aircraft and its crew' - probably copyright. The original soundtrack and commentary is much truer to the period. Delta 8-3 was unavailable for a while but is now part of a compilation called 'Royal Air Force - The Unseen Films 1960-1961'. Amazon.co.uk lists it here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.co.uk%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2FB000 OFOSFE%3Fpf%5Frd%5Fm%3DA3P5ROKL5A1OLE%26pf%5Frd%5Fs%3Dcenter-1%26pf%5Frd%5Fr%3D12BHEPX2D4162ZF4GV5Q%26pf%5Frd%5Ft%3D101%2 6pf%5Frd%5Fp%3D139045791%26pf%5Frd%5Fi%3D468294&tag=will1593-21&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=6738), among others.

The full film follows an 83 squadron aircrew at Waddington, footage of ground crew and hangar work too, finishes up with a scramble. Anyone on here who is featured? :cool:

[taxydual]

What a lovely little clip, thanks Will. The guy's scrambling to the jet wearing SD hats, the hoary old (insert rank here) with a tunic full of medal ribbons. And (poor grammar, I know) I never knew the Vulcan could do a roll!!.

Magic, and memories.

Thanks again.

[BEagle]

Well, in the late '70s we always wore SD caps when going to the jet - even on normal trips! Mine used to live wedged between the AVS hose and the cockpit floor on the RHS of the co-pilot's seat.

Only time we didn't was when scrambling in NBC IPE - what fun that was...:\

Brief clip of the station shows how much smarter things were back then - I can't believe how dreadfully shabby RAF stations look these days....:uhoh:

[Barksdale Boy]

As a nav radar I used to zip my SD hat into the space behind the side-window to my left. This ensured a nice, cool hatband by the end of the sortie. My OCU air instructor, Terry Mooney, gave me this tip - possibly the most important thing I learnt at 230.

[nacluv]

Just thumbing through the web, as you do, and I came across this (http://bearalley.*************/2007/10/avro-698-big-delta.html), which I thought may be of interest to you all.

Edit: Oh dear, the URL Police seem to have stepped in. Try http://bearalley.*************/2007/10/avro-698-big-delta.html, (http://bearalley.*************/2007/10/avro-698-big-delta.html) where you should replace the lovely line of asterisks with "b l o g s p o t . c o m"...:rolleyes:

[Will1593]

taxydual wrote
the hoary old (insert rank here) with a tunic full of medal ribbons
He's a Group Captain and - according to the story told in the original documentary (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.co.uk%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2FB000 OFOSFE%3Fpf%5Frd%5Fm%3DA3P5ROKL5A1OLE%26pf%5Frd%5Fs%3Dcenter-1%26pf%5Frd%5Fr%3D12BHEPX2D4162ZF4GV5Q%26pf%5Frd%5Ft%3D101%2 6pf%5Frd%5Fp%3D139045791%26pf%5Frd%5Fi%3D468294&tag=will1593-21&linkCode=ur2&camp=1634&creative=6738) - the Waddington Station Commander. He's also shown in the bar greeting the new crew. Would be interesting to know if he was the genuine incumbent. Judging from the aircraft featured it was filmed after March 1959 and probably before 1961.

Other details - the full film runs about 30 mins, and is narrated by Peter Dimmock.

[B_Fawlty]

Thanks for the post nacluv :ok:

Try http://bearalley.*************/2007/10/avro-698-big-delta.html, where you should replace the lovely line of asterisks with "b l o g s p o t . c o m"...

Alternatively, using those nice people at TinyURL.com (http://tinyurl.com/) gives you something like this. (http://tinyurl.com/5e7hk2) :8

[Lyneham Lad]

The blog author is obviously a very prescient chap. One of the illustrations at the top of said page shows Sarah Palin packing a pistol :eek:

[Blacksheep]

Brief clip of the station shows how much smarter things were back then - I can't believe how dreadfully shabby RAF stations look these days...In "those days" the Staish and his more senior officers were typically ex WW2 and had been conditioned into being terrified of the SWO. We also had a MPBW depot on each station, complete with a Superintendent of Works.

On the other hand its hard to believe how scruffy most of us juniors were. 'Ernie' was a real enough corporal, but he only got away with his appearance because the SWO didn't realise he was in the RAF - he thought Ernie was a civvy contractor.

(..and so did Ernie, as some would have it. :hmm:)

[philrigger]

;)

In "those days" the Staish and his more senior officers were typically ex WW2 and had been conditioned into being terrified of the SWO. We also had a MPBW depot on each station, complete with a Superintendent of Works.

We also had the SWOs working party where each Cpl and below were placed at the disposal of the SWO for the first 2 weeks after arriving at a new station. They were used for such jobs as painting kerbstones, sweeping roads and paths, painting white lines on car parking spaces etc. I too believe that compared to today, the station of yesteryear was a much smarter establishment. But I doubt that many people care about that today. The manpower situation has long gone where bods could be spared for 2 weeks to work on the SWOs gang.





'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[taxydual]

Coo, the SWO's gang. Way back when, I arrived at Strawbury and was 'allocated' to SWO's gang for 2 weeks. We, the 'allocated' did a job under the watchful eye of the SWO. After a couple of hours, he called a break and promptly lit a fag. I, likewise, lit up. The SWO then dogged his and bollocked me rigid for smoking in uniform!! You couldn't win! Coo, happy days.

[Gainesy]

What was that Airman Trade Group that supplied permanent SWO Joes? General Duties or something? All thick as planks.

[Pontius Navigator]

Gainsy, TAG, trade's assistant general.

I have one working for me now. All kerbs yellow and white, parking bays white, concrete powerwashed, asphalt groomed, weeds weeded, plants watered.

[Gainesy]

Thanks Pontious, that's the one.

Hmm, apart from the kerb stone painting, sounds like what I have lined up for the weekend.:)

[RETDPI]

"What was that Airman Trade Group that supplied permanent SWO Joes? General Duties or something? All thick as planks"

Gainesy , I'd venture that comment tells us far more about you than them.

[Pontius Navigator]

RETDPI, I remember one such when I was wet behind the ears and didn't know trade groups as such, for the youngesters this was before TGs got numbered, and we had a TAG. We treated him as any other SAC - we had a clerk stats and a clerk admin not to mention the clerk ops.

Only after a while did we discover he was a TAG, by then it was too late, he was remustered to clerk admin. All it usually needed was an application of tlc and education in the right proportions.

My current ex-TAG is a very steady pair of hands and was telling me of some outstanding postings he had. Because he was not in anyone particular TG he was employed where ever, when ever - bit like GD Aircrew even.

[MightyGem]

Numerous clips of 558 at the Southport Airshow here:
YouTube - Vulcan XH558 at Southport Air Show 2008 low res (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZx-4bVQPqA)

[The Real Slim Shady]

BEags, the danger of shoving your SD hat down the side of the bang seat though, was the remote possibility that the pee tube stopper hadn't be retightened and your hat became more of a container than part of your uniform :O

[Pontius Navigator]

BEags, the danger of shoving your SD hat down the side of the bang seat though, was the remote possibility that the pee tube stopper hadn't be retightened and your hat became more of a container than part of your uniform :O

And of course some things like that were not left to chance :}

't would have been the first time the nav rad had 'assisted' the copilot. I still think back fondly to on Roger S who after many uncomfortable hours eventually overcame the inconvenience and embarassment only to discover that bladder and funnel were disconnected.:E

[Gainesy]

RETDPI, fair call. But they were.

[Pontius Navigator]

Not all Gainsey, not all.

[BEagle]

Well, being less ancient than an incontinent old navigator, I never found the need to use that dreadful pee-tube. A quick wazz against the line hut wall before flight was good enough.....










....or over the tyres of another squadron's jet - to look like an hydraulic leak!

[The Real Slim Shady]

And then there were the soup heaters: one new copilot stuck his can of Heinz Vegetable in the soup heater, purely as storage. When the Capt asked the AE to turn on his soup heater little did he realise that they were both powered by the switch selection!

When he lifted the can out, placed it on his goonsuit kneepad and punched a hole in it with the dinghy knife .......... out came a stream of hot pureed vegetable soup!!

[Wader2]

Well, being less ancient than an incontinent old navigator, I never found the need to use that dreadful pee-tube. A quick wazz against the line hut wall before flight was good enough.....

....or over the tyres of another squadron's jet - to look like an hydraulic leak!

We had a flight commander who threatened to charge anyone who chose to water the plants at Akrotiri.

Mind you, he was probably embarassed. :}

[Pontius Navigator]

Well, being less ancient than an incontinent old navigator, I never found the need to use that dreadful pee-tube. A quick wazz against the line hut wall before flight was good enough.....

BEagle, 'twas the young and shy copilot who didn't want to wazz in the open.

Mind you, brings to mind the story - Valiant on a round the world. Arrived at prestigious US airfield. Captain (sqn ldr) briefed the crew that he would alight first and greet assembled dignatories who had gathered to greet and inspect the aircraft. The crew would then follow, lineup, and be presented.

As the story goes, the door opened and step were put in place and "with a little flash of kharki, there was Arkie" who flashed over to the port undercarriage and proceded to have an extremely long and satisfying wee to the constenation of all VIPs and the captain and the delight of the rest of the crew.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Pontius tell the truth.

Even skygods don't have d1cks as long as the rolly rubber flap on a goon suit!! No one can be THAT deformed; whoever designed the suit must have been female and hoping!

I always wished I had a 12 inch d1ck.....instead of this monster

[BEagle]

When we flew our mighty Tin Triangle to Malta once, the AEO's pee-tube split and the contents made their way to the entrance door, where, up at FL410, they froze.....

Until, that is, we descended into Mintoff's nice, sunny airspace. As we taxyed in, out came the DetCo ('Paddington Bear') in his natty khaki KD, clutching some tinnies of Cisk for us.

Regrettably, he stood under the entrance door as it opened... With the obvious and unfortunate effect on his nice, once-smart KD.

However, he had the good grace to laugh it off. "You buggers! I bring you out some nice cold beers and you go and wee all over me - is that all the thanks I get?"

[Pontius Navigator]

TRSS,

No goon suit in the good old days.

IIRC the Co was wearing the old style rubber buttoned long johns and probably underpants under that. Then an AVS over that and his Mk 4 flying suit - the shiny fabric blue/grey job.

Of course he had to unstrap from the bang seat and seat straps which was probably what really detered him.

Now if he had been wearing a pressure jerkin and g-pants it would have been impossible. We only wore the jerkin on occasional trips but it was something else again. It had a diagonal zip from one leg to the opposite shoulder. The only way to use a pee-tube required you to stand up and unzip and slip it off your shoulder.

The immersion suit to which you refered was easy peasy compared with the Mk 7. This was a two piece job with the seal around your mid-drift.

[mstjbrown]

The task of emptying pee tubes usually fell to the most junior Aircraft Hand (General).

At the end of one trip, a flight commander on 55 Sqn looked into his in-flight ration box and discovered a couple of cold left-over sausages which he gleefully inserted into the aforementioned tube.

" That'll make the b*****'s think " he said.

[The Real Slim Shady]

The joys of the pressure jerkin.

When I went to get mine at the start of the tour as a brand new shiny co-pilot even the smallest size was too big for me and the doc's wouldn't issue one as they felt that the bladders wouldn't inflate fast enough to protect my chest in the event of a depress.

3 months later I went back, having put on 2 stone ( serious beer drinking and eating) and hey, presto I fitted. Never used it in anger though though did take it on det, just in case.

[Milt]

P Tube Testing.

It never occurred to us TPs at Boscombe Down to flight test those tubes in the Vs. It would have been an interesting trials instruction. Nor have I ever tried to find a design specification for male/female tubes.

Had to occasionally use the 'little' funnel in Mustangs during a long haul. The associated tubing came out under the tail and it was possible for its end to be turned around into the airflow. Pre-flights would reveal if any ground crew had developed a grudge.

[exmanman]

BBC - Today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7635000/7635164.stm)

Broadcast today on Radio 4

In late October 1962, two superpowers teetered on the brink of nuclear war during the Cuban Missile crisis. It has long been assumed that Britain was largely a bystander but new evidence seen by the BBC suggests differently. Mike Thomson reports on the British crew members of Vulcan nuclear bombers who were minutes away from taking to the skies.

[Beeayeate]

So were the Strike Canberra B(I)8 Sqns in Germany (and 231 Sqn's B(I)6s) - loaded with nukes at 5 mins readiness on QRA. But nobody seems to remember them when this subject comes up.


:*:

[Will1593]

The Today piece was taken from a full 30 mins on Document about the UK level of alert during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That programme is online here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00dkzlz) but apparently only for seven days.

Features a visit inside a seemingly powered up Vulcan cockpit at Waddington. Surely not XM607. Perhaps recorded while XH558 was visiting - or maybe just sound effects for atmosphere. :rolleyes:

[Blacksheep]

The only way to use a pee-tube required you to stand up and unzip and slip it off your shoulder.Bragging again Pontius? :ooh:

[vulcanaeo]

Yes the Group Captain in the bar was the Station Commander his name was Hank Iveson, a lovely man. I had the pleasure of flying with on one of his checkout flights.
I was an AEO instructor at the time on 230 OCU, I can't remember the ac serial, possibily XH504 in October 1959. I do remember he had a struggle to get into the right hand seat

[Moldioldi]

Is there any truth in the story related to me by an air trafficer? As told, during a fleet exercise in Western Approaches a bat wing flew a descending downwind leg on Arc Royal (old one), turned into wind and lined up on the flight deck, lowered flaps and gear. The pyrotechnics sent up by the Arc were something to behold!!:E

[FantomZorbin]

I heard that a Vulcan made an approach to Portland with all dangling ... Admiral was not impressed.:}



... or is this yet another apocryphal story?

[BEagle]

FZ, yes, it's true!

Vulcan captain was advised by the Sqn Cdr (with a grin) that a more appropriate choice of aerodrome for a practice diversion would be better in future!

[Milt]

Vulcan versus Aircraft Carrier

Many of my flights in the Vulcan out of Boscombe Down in the mid 50s were to achieve clearances of stores out of the weaopon bay. So it was one day after having released a full load of inert 500 pounders through cloud into the restricted area in Lyme Bay off southern England my OC Flying occupying the right seat expressed a desire to have a look at the coast line.

As we broke through cloud in the area where we had released the bombs there in all its glory was a lilttle old aircraft carrier. We knew it wasn't supposed to be there and I'll never know how close the bombs went. Now annoyed by the unauthorised penetration of our drop zone I decided to have a closer look and identify the intruder.

Lining up for about a 3 mile final I dropped the gear and set up an approach. At about a mile we began to see that it was firing its guns and it became obvious that it had entered the restricted are for gun firing practice. Guns soon went tight and I continued the approach pondering whether to touch the deck with the right gear. But I was wary that there may be some antennas in the way so gave it a little clearance. Over the deck at about 130 Kts I slammed the throttles whilst rotating for a pull up hoping that no one would be blown overboard. Those Olympus engines could spool up in about 2 seconds. Maybe they lost some loose items in receiving such a rebuff from the RAF. The admirals did apologise for the unauthorised intrusion

I would dearly like to hear from anyone who was on the deck of that carrier at the time.

By the way there were no flaps on Vulcan - just a lot of wing.

[Pontius Navigator]

Milt, do you recall a Boscombe incident where they dropped a number of bombs onto the bomb doors?

it would have been mid 60s I guess and probably a 1a. I believe 9 or 10 came off. Says something for the bomb doors that they stayed shut. Would have been interesting getting the bombs out too.

[Milt]

Pontius N
Cannot recall the specs for stores retention on the bomb bay doors of the Vulcan and I was back down under when the incident you mention occurred. But along the same lines is the description of a similar incident with a B6 Canberra from memoirs.

Being the only non British officer on the base, I was somewhat distinctive in my royal blue uniform. I took care to prepare myself as much as possible for every flight as I knew I was under close scrutiny being the first exchange test pilot at Boscombe Down. This paid off, as I quickly generated trust with my supervisors and restraints were soon relaxed. I wanted, of course, to become involved in the trials of the V bombers which were approaching the peak of their flight and systems testing.

I experienced my first abnormal flight on 29 February whilst dropping some live target indicators from a B6 Canberra over the Imber radar directed range not far from Boscombe Down. I was carrying two live target indicators, which were giant flares, and the equivalent in size to about a two thousand pound bomb. Under directions from ground control at Imber, I was directed around a race track pattern at 25,000 ft above a thick cloud cover. Imber used pencil beam radar locked to the aircraft and a pen plotter marked the track on a large map of the range. I was prompted with a speed to fly, the opening of bomb doors, the activation of the master arming switch and the arming of the flares, which were fitted with barometric devices to activate a parachute and in turn ignite the flare at about 2,000 ft.

Release was on a countdown and the first flare dropped away. Just prior to release, the radar operator unlocked the radar from auto-follow and assumed manual control, swinging the beam down along the trajectory of the flare to achieve lock-on to the flare and thus obtain a plot of its entire trajectory. I had felt the slight disturbance to the aircraft on releasing the first flare and was expecting a similar result with the subsequent release of the second.

For the second there was no such feel and almost immediately the navigator reported a hang-up. It was standard procedure to close the weapon bay doors under these circumstances as the range was not very large. After closing the doors and reporting the hang-up, I was vectored into a left turn. As soon as I started the turn I felt a bump and realised that I now had a target indicator sitting precariously on the weapon bay doors. Any wrong move now would be disastrous. Slow down too fast and the flare would slide forward and possibly come on through into the cockpit. Tip the aircraft up a little nose high and it would slip back into the rear fuselage. In either case the gross change in centre of gravity would make the aircraft uncontrollable. We were soon both prepared to eject.

The decisions were mine alone, with Imber keeping me turning to keep the potential disaster within the confines of the range. I felt confident that I could descend to below cloud base to safely drop the flare by opening the doors. Advice from the ground was that the arming of the parachute and fuse barostats were likely to be safe but there was no certainty to this. Eventually, I very carefully started to descend, taking some 15 minutes to get to cloud base at about 3,000 ft. I didn't want to go any lower in case an ejection was required so, again on directions from Imber, I positioned the aircraft over the centre of the range. On opening the doors, Imber picked up the falling flare and we breathed more easily. The flare ignited at 2,000 ft.

I hoped that this sort of thing would not happen too often. As they say, "Flying is not dangerous: crashing is dangerous."

[rodthesod]

Pontious N

We had a couple of incidents in about 1968 operating out of Darwin dropping live 1000lb HE (non-retarded) rounds on an island range.

First incident, briefed to free-fall drop 7 X bombs as singletons from, I think, 8000ft - not a good idea - rtb with schrapnel damage to undersurfaces.
Second incident, briefed to free-fall drop 7 X bombs as singletons from a height ABOVE minimum safe dropping height. 1st bomb ok. 2nd bomb hung-up. SOPs said use Pilot's Emergerncy Safe Jettison (PESJ) to drop all remaining 6 bombs complete with their arming lanyards and therefore 'safe'. 1st attempt at PESJ resulted in 1 bomb releasing and exploding with about 50 yard error. 2nd to 5th attempts achieved similar results (can't remember the errors). We then tried 17 times to get rid of the original hang-up using yawing, positive and negative g pitching and just about everything else that came to mind, all to no avail. Whilst flying 'downwind' in perfectly smooth air for the 18th run we felt and heard a thump as the hang-up 'released' onto the bomb doors. On the final run-in we gently rocked the wings hoping to ensure the bomb was sitting in the middle (concave) area - didn't like the idea of 1000lb HE being crushed between a door and fuselage. We did a radar line-up and pilot release by manual bomb door selection to avoid a gross undershoot and we guessed right - a very lucky almost DH - then rtb with not too much fuel IIRC.rts

[Wader2]

Milt, that pencil beam radar would have been an AA No 3 Mk 7. :)

[BobHead]

Milt

If you had looked at the carrier it had a very, very large letter painted on the flight deck and a big letter and number painted on the side of the Island, R38 being Victorious. That is the big lump of metal the obstructs the starboard (that is right) side of the flight deck (runway to you). Now if you or any of your many crew had taken note you would have known which carrier it was.

Is as suggested it was shooting (fire is something that burns) 3" guns then it would be Victorious who had USN radar controlled 3" guns fitted in the USA.


BobH :rolleyes:

PS Milt were you flying the folding wing version of the Vulcan so it could have been struck down on the hanger deck?

[Pontius Navigator]

Perhaps more noticeable than the R38 number would have been the enormous T 984 radar head :)

[BobHead]

As both Hermes and Eagle had the 984 Dustbin fitted at some time during their careers we must return to the big letter or Pennant Number.

Bob:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

But Hermes was later. Contemporaneously Milt would have known of the Mighty Vic rather than Hermes.

[Pontius Navigator]

RodtheSod,

Was that the 44 and the westabout deployment? Joe Quinn went to Darwin and I was stuck in Ops at Tengah.

[rodthesod]

Pontious N

Yes that was the one.

rts

[Milt]

Vulcan versus Carrier

Some comments

I do recall the odd effect on the approach angle when, as was my want, to stabalise on a 3 degree slope. With one's intended point of flare continuing to move away and having already allowed for wind effect I had to keep trying to regain that 3 degree approach angle.

Nor was I confident that all of the shooting had ceased or whether some gunner might mistake me for a target of opportunity. The last time I flew over an RN ship was off the coast of Korea and without any IFF in a Mustang I was greeted with a few rounds of AA. I got the message.

I know that the 4 ringer I had in the right seat was enjoying it all and looking forward to giving a broadside to their RN Lordships in London after RTB.

With restricted visibility from the Vulcan (XA892 I think) I was preoccupied in having enough clearance from the carrier's island and mindful of any vertical antennas to avoid. Consequently there was precious little time to get the intruder's ID and it was all over in a whoosh.

The three crew in the black hole behind had no outside vision and there may have been the odd intercom interrupt such as "what the hell's he doing now?"
but banter back and forth up front kept them in the picture.

I still wonder whether the ship had its 'landing on' cameras working. Must be someone out there who was on that carrier at the time.

[HAL-26]

Apologies for the blatant plug for which I apologise, but we have a new speaker for the HAA Symposium at Brooklands which I know many who monitor this thread would wish to know about!

Joining the event on Saturday November 15th is former Avro Chief Test Pilot, now well-known author Tony Blackman. He's promised to 'spill the beans' on test flying the Vulcan .......and some of the 'unusual attitudes' activities!!

If you want to hear from the man himself, log onto www.haa-uk.aero (http://www.haa-uk.aero/) for more information.

Other speakers include:

John Forbat on Dr Barnes Wallis and the Wellington;

Eric Verdon Roe, the grandson of British aviation pioneer A. V. Roe, will talk about the race for Britain’s first powered flight, one hundred years ago;

Captain Chris Orlebar one of the first BOAC pilots to be selected to fly Concorde is to chat on the trials, tribulations and triumphs of the early days of Concorde service and will give a new insight into the Brooklands’ prize exhibit.

Weather permitting there is to be a live demonstration of the 1908 Roe biplane replica during the lunch break too!

[The Oberon]

This thread has been the best read since Vulcan 607.

As a young J.T. I started life on the line at Wittering working on Victor - Blue Steel combinations. In about 1966 I remember that there were some live firing trials of Blue Steel. The rumour was that 4 Blue Steel airframes had become available and that 2 were allocated to Scampton and 2 to Wittering. There were several carry over flights before the deed was done, were any of you involved in the Vulcan launches ? It was also rumoured that there was a Lightening chase plane that filmed the launches, anyone seen it ?

[taxydual]

This link

Avro Blue steel - Sonicbomb.com (http://www.sonicbomb.com/v1.php?vid=military/bluesteel.wmv&id=352&ttitle=Avro%20Blue%20steel)

gives you a download option to a film of an air launch.

[Chris Smailes]

Hi,

I found your post on this forum and thought I would get in touch.

The pilot of this plane was my father A.A Smailes, he's still around and I'm sure would be happy to discuss the incident.

My email should you wish to get in touch is [email protected]

Sincerely, Chris Smailes

[Pontius Navigator]

The Today piece was taken from a full 30 mins on Document about the UK level of alert during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That programme is online here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00dkzlz) but apparently only for seven days.

Features a visit inside a seemingly powered up Vulcan cockpit at Waddington. Surely not XM607. Perhaps recorded while XH558 was visiting - or maybe just sound effects for atmosphere. :rolleyes:

It was 558 at Brize.

[KiwiJaegercat]

Hi:
I'd just like to say that I have replied to Chris Smailes, and to thank 'Pontius Navigator' for his e-mail.
Cheers
- KiwiJaegercat

[Will1593]

It was 558 at Brize.
I don't recall that they mentioned 558 at all, can't confirm it now as the recording is no longer available. Getting into the whole 558 story would have been off their topic - but given that she played a part some acknowledgement might have been given. It came across that to be inside a fully functioning Vulcan was quite unexceptional.

Which, of course, we hope will continue to be true.

[Pontius Navigator]

Will, a friend of mine said it smelt the same and sunded the same but 'fully functioning' it not quite true. True it flew but all the nav kit and ECM had been removed as redundant and unnecessary for it to fly.

Some other exhibits that can be powered up may be more representative of fully functioning. We have one locally that is, AFAIK, fully kitted and can be powered up but not engines started.

I had a little look inside a Yellow Sun last month, first time in 44 years. What was sad is that there were things inside there whose purpose was not known to the curator. It will be the same with the Vulcan and other old exhibits. "I wonder what that was" or how did it work? How did they ue it?

[tantalite]

Chris Oerlebar flew me on a &£& out of Gatwick, he flew my parents in a similar manner and was completely non-plussed, as he came to offer his Concorde book, when my father informed him that he had controlled his father whilst Father was a controller at RAF Digby sector ops room during the war.
Ever see Oerlebar flustered?

[Pontius Navigator]

There is a programme on radio 4, 8pm Tuesday 2 Dec, that may be on interest

BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - The Human Button (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fq2sy)

[Dundiggin']

Like many on this fabulous forum, I was unable to make the HAA Symposium at Brooklands to hear Tony Blackburn 'spill the beans' ref the unofficial aerobatics in the Vulcan. Is there any chance of the 'beans being spilled' on here so that we can all bathe in the glory of the Vulcan?
Many thanks. :ok:

[Dundiggin']

Any takers willing to let us know what Tony Blackburn said about the 'unofficial' aerobatics flown by the Vulcan? The thread seems to have died since I asked the question so I wondered if I was being out of order requesting this information. If so, I'll STFU!
:confused:

[TheVulcan]

I thought Tony Blackburn was a disk jockey.

[Dundiggin']

There were two of 'em; one was indeed a disc jockey the other was Avro's Chief Test Pilot - that's the one I'm on about.....as if....:hmm:

[TheVulcan]

Have you read Tony Blackman's book Flight Testing to Win. He talks about aerobatics at Farnborough. Aviation Books and Mystery Novels By Tony Blackman (http://www.blackmanbooks.co.uk)

[Dundiggin']

Many thanks for the links. I can't believe I miss-read the 'Blackman' for 'Blackburn' twice!! 'must be gettin' old.....Once again many thanks.

[tboscher]

My Dad, Air Commodore Joseph Mathews (with one 't') passed away in Salmon Arm, BC, on January 16, 2007. Is this the person you are talking about ?? Some of the locations are similar to his history, but others don't match. I came on this site accidentally, and am curious as to who the 'nephew' is ....

[Pontius Navigator]

tbosher, for various reasons I suspect he was not the same. The one to whom we referred earlier was 'Tiny' Mathews who was about 6ft 4in IIRC. How tall was your Dad?

When did he serve in Cyprus?

[tboscher]

Thanks for the reply -- Dad was only 5ft.9ins to 5ft. 10ins., so obviously not the same person! He was never stationed in Cyprus, but did a tour in Aden 1963-65. He was also at Biggin Hill and Shape, which are all the same as the other Mathews --- was the other Mathews in Salmon Arm also??

[NutLoose]

Ladies and Gentlemen, to those that flew her, my Christmas wishes and Salutations, and a glimps of her now.. I have been home over the festive period and took these images amongst others for you........

She has lost her exhaust shrouds to the ravages of corrosion, but as you see a repaint is in hand and she appears to be in good hands with areas of treatment being continually carried out on her.......

Over to you and apologies if the images are to large........................................

A Merry ( and A Safe) Christmas to one and all, no matter where you are on this season of festivities.

TonyT


http://www.skonk.net/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=289&g2_serialNumber=1


http://www.skonk.net/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=292&g2_serialNumber=1

[TheVulcan]

Just looked in my log book. I flew 823 when it was first built.

This aircraft holds the Vulcan Mk2 speed record when it went too fast during an air test in Cyprus. The top skins were badly wrinkled and it was flown back to Bitteswell where it was repaired and I flew it again after the repair. All described in book Vulcan Test Pilot --- excuse the plug! (I think book is out of print but paper back coming out in Spring.)

Production Schedule
1961 March 30 XJ823 1.05
1961 April 10 XJ823 0.50
After mods at Bitteswell-- probably Skybolts ones
1970 August 14 XJ823 1.30

Long may 823 it rest in peace!

[lasernigel]

tbosher please check your PM's.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Sad to see the old girl covered in birdsh1t.

Flew her half a dozen times but don't recall her having a TFR tit: must have been added when the probe went. My logbook records a depressurisation at FL430 on one trip, Jul 9th 1980.

Lost my $12 Casio watch in on Jun 5th when 534 depressurised too: must have been a Jonah!

[Pontius Navigator]

TRSS, no, TFR was fitted fleet-wide from late 60s, probes went much much later.

[forget]

823's 'TFR' looks to me like a home built add-on. It's far too long for the real thing: see 599's at Barksdale. :8

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/tfr.jpg

[ZH875]

It could be a real 'pod' but fitted without the mount, so is in the wrong position just held by the front fairing.

I can remember asking the museum curator at Cosford (JF) why '598 did not have a TFR pod fitted. His reply was "Where am I going to get one of those from?".

Needless to say, I had an empty pod case with all required mounting bits in my boot, took all of 10 mins to fit.:ok:

[BEagle]

Not a real TFR pod! In any case, XJ823 was an SR2* rather than a B2 and the aged boat-spotters of 27 didn't need TFR for their roles, so it was removed from thier jets.

*Later termed 'B2(MRR)' as they didn't want the 'strategic reconnaissance' capabilities to be too well known........

[Gainesy]

Where is 823 resident?

[Pontius Navigator]

Agree the TFR pod is not the proper GD pod but in its early days 823 was indeed a B2 and not MRR.

I firsst flew in 823 on 3 Jun 64 on the OCU and 3 more times that month. The next time I flew in her was 3 Dec 70 when she was in the Akrotiri Bomber Wing. At this point she would have had the TFR/HRS/Green Satin Mk 2. I flew a further 16 sorties including a ranger to Nairobi and last flew in her on 30-31 Jan and 1 Feb 73 when we took part as the attackers on an Italian Air Force Taceval. We came very close to ditching. We were attacking Montichihari from the north east. I remember picking up the target at 20 odd miles then, as we crossed Lake Garda I lost contact on radar. It took me a moment to realise that the only reason I could lose contact was through radar cut-off and descending.

I reckon we were down to about 150 feet over the very smooth lake. One of the features of the TFR was that it would fly up to 100 feet low over highly reflective terrain, ie a smooth lake.

[ACW418]

Just checked my log book. Did my first OCU solo as co-pilot with Sqn Ldr Wellicombe (strictly his first solo) on 28 Sep 64. 3h20m. Flamed out No1 and relit - ISTR remember we had to descend considerably to get it relit. Crew was a scratch crew from OCU Instructors as both the captain and I were not crewed together or with anyone else. He was going to 1Gp ex Mk1A's and I was destined for BCDU. Never got there though as I was posted to a crew at Coningsby on IX Sqn who had lost their co-pilot to jaundice.

ACW

[forget]

.. 28 Sep 64 ......... as I was posted to a crew at Coningsby on IX Sqn who had lost their co-pilot to jaundice.

That would have to be your shortest posting ever. 'Coningsby' moved to Cottesmore during October '64. ;)

[ACW418]

Forget

Yes - flew XM605 to Cottesmore on 10 Nov 64. 0h45m. I think we were the first one across - in the fog to boot.

ACW

[ZH875]

Not a real TFR pod! In any case, XJ823 was an SR2* rather than a B2 and the aged boat-spotters of 27 didn't need TFR for their roles, so it was removed from thier jets.


823 Finished her days (IIRC) on 50(B) Sqn, and she certainly had a proper TFR pod fitted (http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Avro-698-Vulcan/1167998/M/) then.

[NutLoose]

Gainesy

Where is 823 resident?

She currently Resides up at Carlisle Aiport in Cumbria, sorry, should have added that :)

[tboscher]

Sorry but what are my PMs???

[Pontius Navigator]

tbosher, private messages, like wot I sent you. Look at the Wecolme, tbosher, box, upper right corner and you will see Private Messages.

These are not entirely private as the administrators can read them, but that is true of any email.

[Gainesy]

NutLoose:uhoh::)

Thank you, was trying to place it from the background scenery, with no luck.

[NutLoose]

Gainesy, well,, that will be good old Spadadam ranges up in those thar hills....... As a nipper I used to stand in my primary school playing field and watch the smoke rise, listen to the roar and feel the ground tremble as they tested the blue streak rocket motors...... and I was even a couple of miles further away than the hills in that image show. I finally got to see one in real life when I visited the National Space Center in Leicester just down the road from me now, :ok: well worth a visit.

As for Photos, well NEVER take anything in them as defactor these days as everthing could have changed LOL here is the image you saw after I cleaned it up somewhat to declutter the background, as you can see there are some other hills that simply do not exist and the fuel farm has now dissapeared too, simple to do really. :ok::O

http://www.skonk.net/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=295&g2_serialNumber=4

[midsomerjambo]

OK, so I've posted this link (to Andy Leitch's Vulcans In Camera site) before, but since we're on the subject of 823, here it is again. Taken at Scampton F-dispersal, sometime in 1981.

Vulcans in Camera - Avro Vulcan B2 MRR XJ823 and 35 Squadron at RAF Scampton. (http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/vulcan_people/35sqn_scampton.htm)

[forget]

Stumbled across this, 1964. Interesting read.:ok:

1964 | 0386 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1964/1964%20-%200386.html)

PS. Ref top picture - First V-bomber clad in camouflage is this Victor B.2 of 139 (Jamaica) Sqn, landing at Wittering with its limpet-like Blue Steel underneath.

'Bit late with the gear Hoskins!' :hmm:

PPS. On second thoughts - did the Victor's gear really trail like that? :confused:

[Wader2]

That is the normal trail for a Victor in landing configuration.

[Art Field]

The Victor wheels went into the undercarriage bay upside down and were rotated on t/o to the position you see in the photo by a piston. If the wheels did not tipple into the tipple hooks the u/c would not retract. Therefore on lowering the wheels remained in the rotated position until the rear wheels touched the ground and your expert Victor pilot would gently ease the beast onto four wheels a side. (except in a cross-wind when you were less subtle)

[Pontius Navigator]

The Victor wheels went into the undercarriage bay upside down and were rotated on t/o to the position you see in the photo by a piston.

I heard that the USAF were most impressed how such large undercarriages as the Vulcan and Victor could be made to fold neatly into such small wheel wells, the Victor especially, in contrast the the B47 which, I think, had a rather larger undercart.

[forget]

Victor wheels went into the undercarriage bay upside down

As did the Vulcan's.

[ChristiaanJ]

IIRC, the B-58 Hustler also folds a lot of gear upside down into a small space, no?

[ZH875]

The Buccaneer legs may have folded inwards, but they too put a large lump of metal in a very small hole.

[philrigger]

;)

Nice photo but what is the emblem on the tail ? Not that of 35 Squadorn.

Phil

[threeputt]

It most definatley was the 35 Sqn emblem. Ian was a good friend from Waddington day's, when he was a Flt Cdr on 101 Sqn, and I were a Nav Rad on 50 Sqn.

3P:ok:

[BEagle]

Yep,'tis indeed the 35 'skyhook'!

Junor was OC35 just as I was leaving 35 - he gained rather a reputation for pinching many of the all-too-rare overseas trips. "Democracy is a fine thing, but we're not having it whilst I'm the Boss", was his comment......:hmm:

[philrigger]

;)

threeput and BEagle

Thanks for that. I thought that the 35 Squadron emblem was a winged horses head ! Perhaps I'm thinking of the squadron badge which is obviously a different thing.

Phil

[BEagle]

The 'skyhook' was the informal squadron emblem, whereas the winged horse's head was the official squadron badge:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/images/35sqncrst.gif

Scampton's finest Vulcan squadron disbanded on 28 February 1982. Knowing that the only Vulcan bombing threat they could possibly then face was posed merely by the inferior Waddington mob, Argentina knew it was therefore safe to invade the Islas Malvinas a few weeks later.....:p

[Barksdale Boy]

Any objective analysis of bombing results at RAF Scampton for the two years before 35 Sqn's disbandment can lead only to the conclusion that the premier bombing squadron on that station, by a considerable margin, was 617 Sqn.

[FJJP]

617 certainly were the premier. In fact ISTR that one year, 35 gave 617 a huge amount of support, effectively forming the Scampton wing against all the Wadd Sqns. That year 617 and Simon Baldwin's mob [sorry, forgot the Sqn number] swept the board between them.

The stylised 35 badge was designed by one of the Sqn pilots, who's name is on the tip of my tongue.....

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

;)

Beagle may know some the crews here. They were about his era and many went on to serve at Akrotiri.

Try this for some guys who did fly/maintain the vulcan. 35 Squadron taken in Feb 66 at RAAF Darwin. The crews were from 9/35 squadron if my memory serves me right. The CO was Wg Cdr (Later Air Cdr) D.A. Arnott, DFC. He won his DFC in Korea while serving with the Australians I believe.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/philrigger71/35Squadron1966.jpg

Aaron

[Pontius Navigator]

Aaron, BEagle is not THAT old :)

The exercise would have been Moonflower to the Far East. IIRC the whole Cottesmore Wing was put on notice - 24 ac - and all flying ceased as ac were prepared. After 8-10 days reduced essential training was recommenced then, possibly on a Tuesday, we were ordered to send 16 ac or 2 sqns. As 12(B) had done the first Det in 1964 we were the stay behind sqn and had to cover all 3 QRA ALN.

I don't recognise Don Arnott in that picture but the one with th eplaque at his feet could be just possibly be Mr Pastry if he has scrambled egg on his hat.

[philrigger]

;)

Pontious Navigator

The photo was taken in Feb '66 at RAAF Darwin. The detachment had arrived from RAF Tengah. We stayed for 2 weeks if I recall correctly. The V force detachment had been at Tengah for some months before this. I am on this photo and I arrived in Singapore from Cottesmore in Nov '65 when the detachment OC was Sqn Ldr D.B.R. Harris. There had also been an exercise at Darwin involving the detachment during Dec '65 I think it was.
We, the ground crew were on a 3 month detachment but had the option of staying on a further 3 months if desired. I think that the aircrew were on a different timetable and rotated independently of the ground crew. 9 and 35 squadron rotated 6 months about and the ground crews came from engineering wing at Cottesmore. 9 Squadron were deployed to Tengah from Aug '65 to Feb '66 then 35 took over. I left in May '66 to return to Cottesmore. The squadron plaque lies at the feet of Wg Cdr Arnott. The guy with the slouch hat was F/L H............ (I forget his name) Eng Off and F/O Martin (Arm Off) sits to his left.

This may have been before Beagle's time but lots of these guys went to Akrotiri where I believe Beagle spent some time. But I could be wrong.

[Gainesy]

I think that the aircrew were on a different timetable

Looks like it, talk about Moonies.:uhoh:

(Gleaming white knees for the uninitiated).

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Philrigger

Just to correct you, F/O Martin is sitting between W/Cdr Arnott and the Sqn Eng W/O whose name I cannot remember but he got me out of trouble a few times. Other faces I can put names to are Ken Tomsett, Pete Crowe, Dick(?) Oliver, Dave Williams, Chris Bogg, Mick Hobbs. To think that all the guys on this photo must now be over 60 if they are still with us!! Yes Gainsey lots of white knees and look at all the different colours of KD.

Aaron

[BEagle]

LONG before my time!

I didn't know that 'Caligula' once served on 35 Sqn - clearly standards were lowere back then....;)

[Blacksheep]

Ah yes, the K.D.

Officers received the nicely proportioned tailor mades. Stores issued we ground crew with 8th Army surplus "four yarders" and being the cunning stunts that we were, we retaliated in the only way we could - by wearing them in public. :}

Oh! how the FEAF and Aussie resident personnel laughed. The SWO at Tengah once tried to stop a bunch of Waddington ground crew from walking out of the gate... :rolleyes:

[forget]

The SWO at Tengah once tried to stop a bunch of Waddington ground crew from walking out of the gate .....

They'd be on their way to Charlie's Tailors in the village. A couple of Tigers and a Kemo in the Tengah Bar and you'd have a perfect fit KD in the very best of material. Oh, how smart we all looked. :hmm:

[The Real Slim Shady]

Didn't the boss of 35 get a DH on a sheep with a brake parachute when he streamed and then released instead of dropping the practice bomb??

[BEagle]

Good to see that lots of people have made pledges towards the £1M needed to keep '558 on the air show calendar for 2009.

Over £100K raised in less than 24 hours, the pledge total at 1700 today stood at £685745. At 1800, it stood at £693945.

:ok:

[Capmac08]

G'day all,

It seems we are again approaching the end of the airborne life of XH558.
It will be a sad day to see the end of the Vulcan's flying career.

VTST achieved the near impossible task of returning XH558 to a flying condition. They managed to do it, and to see the aircraft perform at Waddington last summer was an earth moving and heart thumping experience. It was magnificent to see the Vulcan back home in the skies over Lincolnshire again.

The Vulcan gave me the opportunity to visit many places around the world. Westabout; Labrador (the Goose of course) Omaha, San Francisco, Honolulu, Midway, and Eastabout; Gemany, Lybia (Idris and El Adem) Malta, Cyprus, Aden, Masirah, Gan, Singapore, Malaya and HK.
These trips certainly expanded my perspective on the world as did the Cold War aspects of the job, not to mention the fallout from a certain flight over Coniston Water!

Perhaps we could all look back on the effect of operating this great machine had on our lives and make one last minute effort to put some more pennies in the kitty to keep XH558 flying.
Even a small pledge from enough of us coulld make the difference - say £5.00/month - that's one less packet of fags , or one less bottle of wine, or forego 2 pints of beer or miss out one takeaway per month!
It might just make the difference.

One of my younger sons gets his wings at Linton on Friday 6 Mar and it would be wonderful to hear on the day that XH558 would fly again.

Here's hopefully a way of doing it. Contact all who might help.

Attention, attention, this is the bomber controller...........!

[BEagle]

That would indeed be a double celebration for you and your son, Capmac08!

The LIVE pledge data can be seen at Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan To The Sky Trust (http://www.vulcantothesky.org/PledgeData.asp)

It has just reached £750000!!

Go to Bomb, advise demand!

[cornish-stormrider]

Just pledges one PBT. Will pay a lot more if I gets the chance to take the wife under its wing:E:E

[brickhistory]

BEagle:

Go to Bomb, advise demand!

How quaint...

Much more civilized:

"On my mark, three, two, one, keyturn..."

And no long boring flight home either, just wait the estimated 5-25 minutes before Ivan's salvo arrived...

[BEagle]

I thought the W.O.P.R. had replaced all the silo-rats?

Or was that just in 'War Games'? With Ally Sheedy...:ok:

Wouldn't you lke to play a nice game of chess?

[The Real Slim Shady]

It has just reached £750000!!

750100.

I would pledge a grand but the bitch has her legal team taking my money.

[AndoniP]

maybe a silly question...

if someone offered let's say £15-20,000 to be a passenger for a half hour flight they wouldn't take them aboard (after a training session on bailing out)?

seeing as only the AEO sits in the back with possibly the crew chief there's space for 1 passenger isn't there?

i'm sure there's a few rich people out there that could be taken up and earn the trust a few quid.

:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

Andoip, you could, I guess, take 3 pax and a hostie.

The hostie would do all the usual non-smoking, no toilet, fasten your seat belt but most importantly:

In the unlikely event of . . . follow me.

[BEagle]

£750100 is sooo old.

Currently £779711.....make that £779749....£780159....:ok:

[cornish-stormrider]

I'd sell the wife for a trip in the delta lady......

[AndoniP]

Andoip, you could, I guess, take 3 pax and a hostie.

The hostie would do all the usual non-smoking, no toilet, fasten your seat belt but most importantly:

In the unlikely event of . . . follow me.

:ouch:

ok joking aside now. i'm sure those who are lucky to experience flights in other jets have to undergo training in case of emergency- thunder city etc?

or is it a condition of its' certification that it cannot carry any civilians whatsoever?

honest question.

[nacluv]

Honest answer - I'm pretty certain it's 'b'. :{

Most of the TVOC/VTST people will never be able to set foot in there, never mind Joe Public, and never mind getting airborne either.

[Pontius Navigator]

As this is A Vulcan thread, let me comment.

All aircrew had to undergo regular, but I can't remember how often, crew drills before we could fly in 't beast. The was a Mk 1 nose at Finningley, later Scampton IIRC, where we would all emplane and run through various scenario of bailout or ditching.

Bailout just left the pilots sitting there like lemons. We would all reboard and do a ditching where the co usually got out, we snuck between the seats and the AEO would get hoisted out using a dinghy lanyard.

After the assistor cushions came in I think we only did one drill as the seats had to be reset by the squippers. I think it was an annual thing at the annual Refresher at the OCU.

I don't recall the crewchiefs ever joining us in the trainer nor do I recall ever briefing a crew chief as we assumed they would know how to open the door and what to do. If there are any chiefs here made they would comment.

I know we flew official passengers, such as Iranians, and I know of some unofficial ones too. None of them did the drills.

[beefix]

PN
Escape drills became compulsory for crew chiefs after the 1975 Vulcan crash in Malta. I was just about to finish CC training at the time of the crash. A sad business but the BoI did reveal some serious problems regarding escape drills. There was no record of any escape drill training for the two CCs who died in the accident. There was also some question about the stowage of the door ladder and luggage being placed in the Bomb Aimers position. On 44(R) we used to do drills prior to a Ranger and that kept us current for six months which allowed for Exercise deployments etc.

[sisemen]

On the odd occasion that I was allowed to fly with the GSU (1968-75) it was certainly a requirement that I had undergone crew escape drills.

Here's one taken at the Finningley crew drill trainer. Not sure now who the air officer is - nicely polished flying boots though!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/VulcanExit.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

That is the Finningly one. Pax drills was probably a question of availability. If you were at Finningley, or there was a trainer, then you could do the drills. In the end we seemed to get so many guests that we ended up giving a standard 'airline' patter and simply took their word that they understood.

As we had to fly with Iranian officers I guessed that they would say yes to anything so I wrote out a comprehensive brief - no smoking, no guns etc - and we got it translated at the Embassy. It was on the next flight after the brief was introduced that a Vulcan crash landed.

I am sure it was a great comfort to the observer to know he had taken part in an 'extremely unlikely' event.

[Checkflaps]

Unfortunately, at the moment (and fingers crossed for this Friday), this is the closest you can get to flying 'in' the Vulcan. Probably not as good as the real thing, but a pretty good second I would say.

YouTube - When I flew with The Blades and Vulcan XH558 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvA8jSeQIWU)
(It's not my vid.)

Checkflaps :)

[cornish-stormrider]

Hooray, I mean Oh Bugger. I now have to explain to SWMBO where my pocket money has gone this month:E.

Are they going to let me take her under the wing??
Or do you old (Yes Beags, I mean you too) Vulcan types know a better spot??

Where has Beag's 1838 post gone??

[BEagle]

It seems that someone made a false pledge.....:mad:

At 1917, the figure is now £908783...... Less than £100K to go!

[BEagle]

At 0957, it passed the £950000 mark....:ok:

Only £50K to go now.......

At 1019, £47839 to go;

1100: £43165

[Satellite_Driver]

£25 bunged their way, because:

a) I well recall 129 IOT grad and the Vulcan flypast, and

b) I'd like more opportunities to take pictures like this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3127/2686269437_200fc5e84a.jpg

Vulcan Takeoff 7 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sjbradshaw/2686269437/)

[BEagle]

Hopefully you'll be able to see '558 taking off again soon, if all goes well!

At 1148, £39982 still to find....:eek:

[Treble one]

A message from Eddie Forrester from Aerobytes

'It might be a while before Robert's announcement reaches Paul for publication on the website, so here's what you've all be waiting to hear...

Although nearly £1M has been pledged, the project had no cash to continue operating long enough to start collecting that money and would have ceased operation today.

HOWEVER, Aerobytes & Judd Power have provided the immediate cash required to pay the wages for the coming month.

So long as the pledges are honoured, we all have a very noisy & splendid year to look forward to.'

Excellent news.

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Done

Million nicker plus pledged :ok:

[BEagle]

Not quite £1M yet - currently £24914 to go!

From Rob Pleming:


Vulcan now truly "The People's Aircraft"

Thousands of pledges provide a future for the Vulcan

One month ago, the Vulcan to the Sky Trust (VTST) had to announce that the prospects of seeing Vulcan XH558, the world's only flying Vulcan, ever flying again were looking very poor as the result of the lack of cash, and that notices had had to be given to its employees that their jobs would end on Friday 6th March

With the launch of a Pledge Campaign to raise £1million, VTST based its future on the public's affection for the Vulcan and their desire to see it fly.

As the deadline of the end of today approaches, the Pledge Campaign has this morning (11.00am) passed £956,835, pledged by over 9,821 supporters, and so has excellent prospects of passing its goal of £1million imminently.

This is the third time in seven years that the future of the Vulcan in flight has been saved by the support of thousands of members of the public, making XH558 "The People's Aircraft". Never has one historic aircraft owed so much to so many!

Sponsors provide breathing space

On their own, pledges can't solve the Trust's immediate cash problem, because they each need now to be converted into cash donations. The Trust is therefore very grateful to its sponsors, Aerobytes Ltd and Judd Power, who have today committed sufficient cash to keep the Trust going for another month, allowing time for the pledges to be redeemed.

As the result, VTST is delighted to announce that it is able to continue its activities on a more secure financial footing, and that the prospects of seeing the Vulcan fly in 2009 are now good.

Supporters led the way forward

For the past month, supporters of the Vulcan have been tireless in their fundraising activities, ranging from the cross-country Vulcan Scramble, to "Pledgathon" events across the UK. VTST is enormously grateful to all the members of the Vulcan to the Sky Club for their help.

Inspiring the Young

There are well over 10 million young people who have never seen the Vulcan in flight. Following the success of the Pledge Campaign, these youngsters now have an opportunity to experience this inspirational "once seen, never forgotten" sight.

Because we cannot assume that all the pledges will be honoured, we are asking the the public to continue to pledge financial support, either through our website Vulcan to the Sky Trust - Avro Vulcan Bomber XH558 - Vulcan To The Sky Trust (http://www.vulcantothesky.org) or by phone to our office on 0116 247 8145. We have demonstrated that even the smallest pledge helps, because it is people in their thousands who make the difference.

Robert Pleming
6th March 2009

[shandyman]

Pontious Navigator,

Sir, Please check your PM's.

Regards

Shandyman

[kiwibrit]

I don't recall the crewchiefs ever joining us in the trainer nor do I recall ever briefing a crew chief as we assumed they would know how to open the door and what to do. If there are any chiefs here made they would comment.

As a SEngO I flew on 2 rangers from Waddington. Both I and the crew chief joined the crew for evacuation training in the crew drill trainer.

[Pontius Navigator]

Kiwibrit, when was that? In my case it was a long time ago and crew drills did not feature highly in my memories. I recall the first drills on the OCU with my second crew in 1969.

We had the usual 'bang - abandon aircraft - jump jump.'

I swivelled the seat, pulled the assistor cushion release, reached down to the bar on the plotter's seat, swung down and pulled the door open handle. The door banged open and I was out on the mat.

I got out of the way, removed my parachute and dinghy, refastened all the parachute straps and stowed all the kit. I then stood and waited until the AEO emerged followed by the plotter a wee while later.

The AEO was ex-kipper fleet and the plotter ex-Victors. In an urgent abandonment there was no question of helping the others get ready.

As previously mentioned, after the Luqa crash when I lost two friends, things clearly tightened up.

[kiwibrit]

Pontius Navigator, about 1981 and 1982 - and I went to the trainer both times. Each time, the crew chief and I went through the drill with the full crew.