BA 747-400 Engine fire, Mauritius 23/11/03???

[planecrazi]

I understand that Speedbird 747-400 had an engine fire on take-off this morning rwy 14, Mauritius this morning and returned to the ramp.

Don't know if it was a warning or actual.

Any more news from BA???

[planecrazi]

Aircraft still parked in bay 12 at Plaisance, FIMP

[Discovery Man]

Empty aircraft left LHR this afternoon to pick up passengers and sick aircraft will be 3-engine ferried home.

[planecrazi]

Any idea when the departure will be from Mauritius. It would be interesting to watch a 3 engine take-off.

[mad_dog]

PlaneCrazi,

Don't tell me you are a sad plane spotter.

Question: what do you think the difference will be if the 74 takes off with 3 engines or 4 when you are looking at it from other side of the fence? :} A man of your credentials should know!

I await your reply! :E

[ubreakemifixem]

I have been on a few three engine ferry flights all they do is increase power on the other side on take off.The only drawback on landing is the fire engine escort.Other wise everything is normal.

[Captain Airclues]

mad_dog

It is possible that the take-off could look different from the other side of the fence, depending on how far the aircraft is going. Public Transport flights have many safeguards built in to their performance figures. As no passengers or cargo are allowed on ferry flights, they are not deemed to be Public Transport, and therefore these safeguards are not accounted for. There is separate performance data for these flights. The crew might examine the far end of the runway rather more closely than they would normally.
The take-off procedure is to apply derated thrust on the symmetric engines and then gradually increase the thrust on the asymmetric live engine so that derated thrust is achieved by Vmcg. If a second engine fails then the performance becomes rather interesting. The clean-up will be commenced at a minimum height of 400ft, and could take a while. If I was in Mauritius I would certainly go to watch, but then I am a bit of a spotter.

youbreakemifixem

I've done many three-engine ferries, and have never yet needed to be met by the fire services.

Airclues

[planecrazi]

Mad_Dog
No plane spotter, but it would be interesting to watch a low level climb past the lagoon in Mauritius.

Most of our ratings are done on 3 engines of a 4 engine jet, but all are landing, go around and V1-GO!. A departure is different and must be highly co-ordinated and have specially trained crew.

I don't know much of a 747-400 and was wondering if it will fly direct to LHR or say via Nairobi due to a weight limitation.

;)

[The Nr Fairy]

Now, a 3 engine departure from Mauritius is one thing. A 3 engine departure from Nairobi ? I'd be twitching . . .

[maxy101]

No specially trained crews in BA planecrazi , just 2 line copilots and a training Captain with a manual and a sim session ...

[planecrazi]

The sim session must be the special training.

[TightSlot]

Pse excuse Cabin Crew question.

If a heavy 747 lost on a three engine ferry sector (as above) were to lose a second engine on the same side as the other one, say during the initial climb, would it stay airborne? I can understand that it can fly on three, or even two, but two on the same side at a high weight and relatively low speed? - just curious and thanks for any response.

P.S. My a/c types just have the two, so I don't think we do single engine ferries, or else we do but they don't tell us!

[TopBunk]

Tightslot

When you lose the second engine on the same side, so long as you are just about clean (let's say flap 5 or less, and say 230kts) you should be ok, even at 350+tonnes. Turning towards the live engines requires addditional rudder. If you are lower/slower than this you have BIG problems, and will probably not stay airborne.

Note: these figures are illustrative and approximate.

[TightSlot]

Thank you Bunk (and quick too!)

[no reds]

suggest you may find that a 4eng aircraft departing on three with no pax or bags may well be higher over the upwind boundary than you would expect and since it`s a standard positioning procedure why would you want to be met by fire crews? . . . also suggest that with the loss of a second donk the only real danger may be inthe event of a go-around if hot,high and heavy.

. . . mind you if the other 2 packed up you`d be up there all day ! :ok:

[BOEINGBOY1]

Remember a mate sending me some pics a few years back, of a far eastern carrier 74 classic, (poss air china) that had landed in Germany. They had been operating a revenue sector carrying a large number of pax, whilst operating on 3engs only from the start. The u/s engine had, had the blades secured with pax seat belts to stop the windmilling effect - obviously pre departure. Whatsmore, was that there was severe fan blade damage to one of the remaining so called good engines. If I recall correctly German Aviation Authority grounded the a/c immediatly and ordered that at least 3 engines were replaced before it would be aloud to fly again.

[ubreakemifixem]

B.A. had a b747-400 take off from Nirita and an engine went bang.The crew made sure everything was safe and flew onto Helisinki.This is because the the aircraft burns more fuel on three engines than four.Maybe someone can tell me why this is.It wasthen 3 eng ferried back to LHR with the engine siezed so there was no windmilling but apparently this was safe to do so.

[Captain Airclues]

TightSlot

On a normal, 4-engine take-off, the aircraft is certified to lose the power from one engine. As TopBunk says, there are no guarantees after the falure of a second engine until the aircraft is clean. However, on a 3-engine ferry the take-off weight is vastly reduced so as to allow a second failure at an earlier stage. The aircraft is climbed to 400 feet and then flown level while the flaps are retracted. So long as the speed is above 2-eng VMCA then there is no problem with losing two on the same side. During the training on the somulator the small group of pilots who are ferry qualified practice the failure of a second engine just after Vr.

BOEINGBOY1

Those photos were shown on PPRuNe. I believe that they turned out to be a hoax.

Airclues

[lomapaseo]

Those photos were shown on PPRuNe. I believe that they turned out to be a hoax.

I believe the photos were real and the story was hoax:O

Nothing unusual about tieing down a rotor to prevent it from windmilling, and causing vibrations, when you 3 engine ferry back to a repair base

[cirrus01]

Believe it is usual to remove the fan blades for the ferry.....certainly the case for the -22 RB211s. Usually there is no transportation cases available down route so itthey end up strapped one each to pax seats.

Was invovled in a similar situation a few years back...... 3 eng ferry arriving back at base for immediate engine change. The ongoing enging was minus some parts , notably the IDG and Hyd pump so these were to be removed from the U/S engine....( has to be done before dropping as impossible to get access when engine is in the stand ). Ever tried to work on a big lump of metal that has been cold soaked at around minus 50 deg C for 8 hours plus ????? Perishing !!!

:ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

[planecrazi]

I thought to add a little bit of info concerning another limiting factor on a 3 engine flight pertaining to an A340 as per FCOM 2.04.40 P2

Ferry Flight Windmilling:

Quote: The total flight time (with engine failed during the previous flight plus the ferry flight) must not exceed:
-7 hours without lubrication
-9 hours with lubrication

During the ferry flight, the lubrication system is always considered inoperative, so, the duration of the ferry flight itself is in all cases limited to 7 hours.END QUOTE

Quote: Ferry Flight with Rotor locked:
No flight duration limitation END QUOTE.

Would the 747 in this case have a simliar limitation, or lock the rotor or remove the N1 blades and due to the range, 5400nm ferry to FIMP-LHR, possibly stop over somewhere enroute?


Another thing regarding a 3 engine thrust for take-off and a flex 4 engine take-off, as per FCOM 2.02.14 P1.

Quote" Thrust must not be reduced by more than 25% of full rated takeoff thrust" End quote. Thereby, one could say a maximum flex take-off would equal a maximum 3 engine thrust take-off.

Obviously there are other factors to be considered in take-off roll, weight, climb-out climb graidents, yaw, further failures etc...

[cwatters]

Out of curiosity.... do they let the dead engine windmill or fit intake covers etc? Is there a special place to insert a pin to stop it rotating or do they just throw a spanner in the front?

[Gauteng Pilot]

They can just make a short flight over the ocean to Johannesburg and put a 5th engine on the normal overnight flight down, and have the plane fixed in no time.

Then there are no worries as to long term coldsoaking the engine.

And we can see a 5 Engine -400 again ( long time since ive seen one )

[gas path]

planecrazi
I don't believe there is a limit for the 211 windmilling following a failure (would certainly be more than 7 hours if an engine failed on take off in say, NRT).
For a 3 engine ferry, generally the fan blades would be removed and a blank fitted over the core engine. The LP shaft still rotates in the breeze (unless well stuck down with tape!) and usually manages about 3-4% in the CRZ. The only other requirements are the engine multiplex unit must be removed and the FAFC (EEC) must be either removed or powered up for the duration to prevent condensation forming.
As regards YGG in MRU it was a combustion chamber boroscope plug that failed resulting in a gas leak generating a fire warning. A/C all serv. now :ok:

[planecrazi]

Gas Path,
Good news-the aircraft got airborne at 10:45 utc from FIMP this afternoon, and it looked like it was going well.